Subguild and Sorcerer Changes

[John]

From the Release Notes for today

-Changes to subguilds
--General Crafter removed, characters with 'General Crafter' will be converted to 'Crafter'
--Clayworker removed, characters with 'Clayworker' will be converted to 'Crafter'
--Stonecrafter removed, characters with 'Stonecrafter' will be converted to 'Crafter'
--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
--Acrobat removed, characters with 'Acrobat' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
--Rebel removed, characters with 'Rebel' will be converted to 'Outlaw'
--Tinker removed, characters with 'Tinker' will be converted to 'Jeweler'
-New Subguilds added
--Gladiator
--Bounty Hunter
--Minstrel
-Sorcerer subguilds have had their number of spells roughly doubled.

Subguild page is here and has them. Furthermore, I looked at those subguilds earlier today (before the reboot) and I swear they did not have the skills and max skill level they grant explicitly stated. They all now do (except those that are being retired).

I'm happy to hear that sorcerers have been boosted. I understand that they were too powerful as they were and that by toning down their magickal spells and giving them a full fledged guild they were made less powerful but much more survivable. However I'm glad to see they're being monitored and regularly updated as a result of how they're being played and feedback they receive. Doubling the spells they get may still not be enough. Or it might be too much. Either way, I'm pretty happy with them getting reviewed on a regular basis.

I love the flavour of the new guilds. I really hope they help inspire people and open up new character concepts. Already I wish one of them had been available when I last app'd a character. I was confused with Minstrel until I saw it was an extended subguild.

I'm of two minds about the skill levels being listed. It's most certainly helpful. But it's different.

[Rathustra]

I have some extended patch notes I wrote for this release and will post them into this thread when I get home from work. Until then I can answer some questions in this thread.

edit: Here they are:

Hello and welcome to the release notes for Subguild Rennovations!

Our motivations behind these changes were:
~ Taking on-board feedback on extended subguilds we'd received over the last few years and couple it with how we'd seen these new additions perform.
~ We also wanted to knock the dust off of our 0 karma subguilds - which have remained almost entirely unchanged for perhaps a decade (not taking into account the addition of 'direction sense' as a skill. We wanted to canvas for feedback on these classic subguilds and also take a look at the reality of how often certain subguilds were selected in the game to help make each subguild more appealing to players.
~ Finally, we wanted to inject a clearer sense of subguilds providing characters with an immediate sub-role in the in-game world, leaving gradual development to their main guild.

Of these, the third was the easiest to achieve - we've doubled the starting skill of most skills in every subguild. This means your PC will be a little more competent at this minor aspect of their concept from the get go.

The second goal  was much more difficult and required us to take on board what exactly players disliked about existing subguilds. We found that those subguilds with low thematic appeal and narrow skillsets received the least attention - except where the skills involved fed directly into highly valued, code-intensive parts of the game (such as combat).

Not wanting to over-emphasise any particular way of playing Armageddon, we thus chose to double-down on broadening the utility of less popular subguilds and adding new, thematic options to offer new alternatives to selecting what were already popular choices.

We also took the decision to remove a selection of subguilds from the game. These were subguilds that polls to the player base showed as having little appeal - we found that these polls backed up data we collected from our PC records. Instead of simply just removing these subguilds though, we chose to take their various elements and distribute them to other subguilds, thus keeping their skills in circulation.

With all this said, let's get into an analysis of the changes:

~ Added Gladiator
~ Added Bounty Hunter

These two subguilds are efforts to produce new options for players who find their play style revolves around a very narrow collection of subguilds. Subguild Gladiator offers new choices to less combat-orientated guilds without the need to spend karma on an extended subguild. Bounty Hunter, while not introducing anything new into the pool of skills available from subguilds, does offer a solid thematic base in the vein of Mercenary and Nomad which ties firmly with its collection of skills.

~ Removed Clayworker (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Removed Stonecrafter (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Renamed 'General Crafter' to Crafter

The first of the subguild removals were removed because of the very narrow selection of skills they offered. We decided that when picking a subguild, a player's choice should offer them more than a single experience in the game world - either through the variety of skills offered or the IC niches that a subguild might be able to occupy. Stonecrafters and Clayworkers failed on both counts – they had a single craft skill that focused on decorative objects and the skills surrounding this craft skill didn't offer much in terms of game experience. While we were considering what to do with these subguilds we noticed that the General Crafter subguild was on the chopping block because of player feedback. It seemed like a natural solution to combine these three subguilds into a single subguild that allows players to forage and make a variety of objects from the things they find. Perhaps unlikely to become a massive favourite - we have given those players that pick this subguild more options all-round.

~ Removed Tinker
~ Removed Acrobat

These subguilds were polled as being unpopular and the data supported this assessment. They suffered from narrow skill selection - especially in the case of Tinker, whose craft skill had little use on its own. In order to support our push towards crafts requiring more tools we've chosen to give tool making to a variety of other subguilds so these PCs can make basic tools of their trade. Climb is a skill that is much in demand and, given that Acrobat was one of the few subguilds that granted it, we've also given climb to one or two other subguilds.

~ Removed Scavenger

Feedback on scavenger showed that it was widely used for its ability to find food in the wilderness. It was seen as essential for characters who aren't rangers who want to live away from cities. We chose to remove Scavenger because a subguild that offers very little beyond two skills considered vital was forcing players to make a choice deemed necessary. We'd much rather that players making these sorts of PC were permitted to have a wider choice in subguild. So, our solution will be to look at how finding food in the wilderness and climb are handled for all PCs to make them less of a 'must have'.

~ Renamed 'Rebel' to 'Outlaw'

The GDB has spoken. Rebels have received climb and a new name.

~ Added Minstrel

We've added a new extended subguild which possesses instrument making to the level of master and builds upon the skills in the bard subguild. While 'Majordomo' offered a selection of skills for aides, we felt that another 'social' subguild option would appeal to the players of city-slicker PCs or wandering gossips.

~ Made all skills starting level at least apprentice.

As mentioned above, this makes PCs require much less development to do the things their subguild lets them do.

~ Re-written all 0 karma subguild helpfiles.

We've gone through each subguild and have produced a new introduction that clearly describes each skill that subguild possesses. Each helpfile also contains a clear list of the skills and the levels to which the subguild can learn said skill to. This re-write began part-way through the rennovations in order to bring the 0 karma help files in line with the help files of extended subguilds. In response to player feedback we also added a clear, direct skill and skill level list.

Specific Skill Changes:

What follows is the list of each skill adjustment:

Archer:
~ Now has dyeing and direction sense.

Armormaker:
~ Now has tool making.

Bard:
~ Now has instrument making.

Con Artist:
~ Now has hide.

Forester:
~ Now has axe making.

General Crafter:
~ Now called Crafter.
~ Has lost: dyeing, tanning and rope making.
~ Now has clayworking, stoneworking and forage.

House Servant:
~ Now has hide.

Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.

Jeweler:
~ Now has tool making and haggle.

Physician:
~ Now has floristry and forage.

Rebel:
~ Now called Outlaw.
~ Now has climb.

Tailor:
~ Now has tool making.

Thief:
~ Now has hide.

Thug:
~ Now has bash.

Weaponscrafter:
~ Now has tool making

Apothecary:
~ Now has master floristry instead of brew.

Cutpurse:
~ Now has sneak and sap.

Rogue:
~ Have lost: peek and steal.
~ Now have climb and watch.
~ Now begin play with pick.
~ Adjusted how some skills branch.

[Asmoth]

The subguilds helpful E wasn't updated yet with the new subguilds, you have to search them alphabetically.

[LauraMars]

I'm excited about the Minstrel extended sub. Instrument crafting!

[John]

Now that we have the ranks I do find the "value" of certain extended subguilds is certainly interesting. For example Apothecary vs Phyisican:
* Apothecaries do not start with brew, physicians do.
* Apothecaries can mastercraft bandages, splints and poultices, physicians cannot.
* Apparently physicians get floristry while apothecaries do not? (Typo?)

This is the sole difference between them. So unless you really wanted to be creating new poultices and such (and hey, some character concepts WILL want to) you're always better off taking the physician subguild and saving your 1-3 points of GCP (I believe currently all extended subguilds are 3 GCP).

[Rathustra]

Now that we have the ranks I do find the "value" of certain extended subguilds is certainly interesting. For example Apothecary vs Phyisican:
* Apothecaries do not start with brew, physicians do.
* Apothecaries can mastercraft bandages, splints and poultices, physicians cannot.
* Apparently physicians get floristry while apothecaries do not? (Typo?)

This is the sole difference between them. So unless you really wanted to be creating new poultices and such (and hey, some character concepts WILL want to) you're always better off taking the physician subguild and saving your 1-3 points of GCP (I believe currently all extended subguilds are 3 GCP).

This is an error on my part. I didn't pass the subguild changes to Apothecary to Nergal, who updated the Apothecary help file. The Apothecary helpfile should mention that Apothecaries can learn to master the art of floristry, helping them mastercraft new preparations for flowers and herbs.

[Asmoth]

Also, it seems like there were some additions to the basic subguilds that weren't initially there.

I logged in checked skills and boom there are three extra skills that match up to my existing subguild.

So that's cool!

[Patuk]

Is there still a subguild other than grebber with food forage now?

[John]

This is an error on my part. I didn't pass the subguild changes to Apothecary to Nergal, who updated the Apothecary help file. The Apothecary helpfile should mention that Apothecaries can learn to master the art of floristry, helping them mastercraft new preparations for flowers and herbs.

Newbie question time: What does floristry have to do with apocathery? Feel free to tell me "find out IC". But in game mechanics, is this related to brewing tablets? If so, does this mean apothecarists can effectively create new tablets? What about other things that are brewed?

[Barsook]

I still don't get why the skill levels for the skills are spelled out.  That's a bit too meta-gamely for me.

[Nergal]

The subguilds helpful E wasn't updated yet with the new subguilds, you have to search them alphabetically.

The helpfiles are updated now.

[Nergal]

Is there still a subguild other than grebber with food forage now?

No.

[Asmoth]

I still don't get why the skill levels for the skills are spelled out.  That's a bit too meta-gamely for me.

I like the change, transparency of code is a good thing.  Now I know to stop trying to master this one skill I was trying to master from character inception, because it's impossible.

Plus, it's been proven before that sometimes you can request X and Y, for X and Y reasons so I would assume that nothing is TOTALLY off the table.

[Barsook]

Good point....

[Asmoth]

I think I'd cum in my pants if they did the same thing in regards to GUILD (Minus karma ones I suppose).

But hey, baby steps.

[Chettaman]

While I like this.
I am going to hate seeing, "Crap, I don't think I'm going to be getting any better at this."
I hate it IRL too, though... so. Eh.

[LauraMars]

The clayworking subguild helpfile seems to still exist in the "Related topics" sidebar when you're reading a subguild helpfile. (Same with some of the other subguilds that got removed, acrobat and general crafter, etc)

[Rathustra]

This is an error on my part. I didn't pass the subguild changes to Apothecary to Nergal, who updated the Apothecary help file. The Apothecary helpfile should mention that Apothecaries can learn to master the art of floristry, helping them mastercraft new preparations for flowers and herbs.

Newbie question time: What does floristry have to do with apocathery? Feel free to tell me "find out IC". But in game mechanics, is this related to brewing tablets? If so, does this mean apothecarists can effectively create new tablets? What about other things that are brewed?

I know this is a terrible answer - but this is an ongoing change that we're not 100% ready to reveal now. We're looking at the floristry skill and how it relates to herbs and their preparation in the same way the skill currently handles preparing flowers and the like. How this will eventually mesh into the current brew code is currently under debate. Watch this space.

[Dresan]

I am kinda sad about scavenger, alot of people liked that subguild.


However, don't think that will be too much of a problem considering the changes to thief! And the addition of gladiator. Wow.

[Harmless]

What an adaptible and awesome set of updates!!! Thanks so much for listening to your players' feedback about subguilds! COMPLETE AND UTTER APPROVAL HAS BEEN GAINED.

[Nergal]

The clayworking subguild helpfile seems to still exist in the "Related topics" sidebar when you're reading a subguild helpfile. (Same with some of the other subguilds that got removed, acrobat and general crafter, etc)

I've gone through the deprecated subguild help-files and added a note to them, indicating that they are no longer available as choices. Not sure whether to leave them for posterity or delete them yet.

[John]

I know this is a terrible answer

Not at all. We all know how the current code works (AFAIK the brew code has always been considered to be in a "beta" state and was always planning on getting revamped. This is relying on rather faulty memories though from 10 years ago). If you guys are improving how it works, then great news for us when it does eventually get into the game. In the interim, physicians and apocatheries just got a new skill show up in their list

[Harmless]

Is there still a subguild other than grebber with food forage now?

No.

This is probably one of the only sad notes about this, but it's not hard to app a grebber and grebbers are awesome as hell.

[Nergal]

While I like this.
I am going to hate seeing, "Crap, I don't think I'm going to be getting any better at this."
I hate it IRL too, though... so. Eh.

While we always had a hunch that players generally wanted more information to build their characters into something they'd like to play from the start, this thread really confirmed it for us:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50327.0/viewResults.html

A plurality voted for maximum exposure, but almost everyone wanted to see some additional information. We felt going all the way was better than arbitrarily leaving some things to speculation.

[Dresan]

I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now. And will the way we pick extended sub-guilds change? Are they being linked to karma like magick guilds?