Subguild and Sorcerer Changes

[Adhira]

If I could have one wish fulfilled for the future overhaul of the guild system that Adhira is promising, it would be for all guilds that get parry to actually begin with it. Having to master the most difficult fighting style in order to finally learn the most basic combat maneuver is both mindblowingly unrealistic and awful for playability, and it hugely inflates the extended subguild that grants parry from the start, allowing rangers and assassins to bypass literally months of grinding.

I'll be creating a thread later on where I'll be collecting suggestions and ideas. Hang tight for that one!

[Dresan]

I think you've honestly succeeded in making some very awesome sub-guilds here that add a wonderful level of depth and coolness to the experience. For example, I can see it being a hard choice between assassin/hunter, assassin/gladiator, and assassin/tailor. All really have cool dimension of actual role play beyond just the  skills they offer because it allows you to the same guild in vastly different ways. The same can now be said about merchant/gladiator or merchant/hunter, and many other guilds now thanks to these changes. It is not to say it wasn't like this before but to a much lesser degree in my opinion.

So in that sense, kudos and great work. I really look forward to seeing the guild changes but at the moment I have no doubt the staff will succeed as they've done here.

[Pale Horse]

I don't really have anything constructive to add; I just wanted to say that I think these changes are very cool.

With all the changes that have gone into the game since I last had a character, I'm inching closer and closer to making one, again.

Maybe when life settles a bit.

[Desertman]

There is no sub-guild I can see that masters Lumberjacking/Woodworking.

Just a footnote really.

I like these changes.

[Dresan]

A major addition with the subguilds was moving them into a structure similar to guilds so that we could apply karma values to them. This means that extended subguild apps are no longer needed. The options will be there at character generation if you have the karma. If you do not then a special application will get you the point you need for these.

I just want to confirm confirm what this will mean for skill bumps.  I am guessing if you want skill bumps and/or a karma subguild now, they will still be handled through the CGP and special app method? For example if I have two karma and want to play a ranger/protector, I can still have 2 or 3 skill bumps through the special app system?

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Man, it's not April 1st...

I'm in love with this!

[Jihelu]

OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I love it.
I love it so much.
I love being able to see what abilities you can get and learn.
I love seeing how high they can go.
I love being able to plan out characters more in depth

[Malken]

A major addition with the subguilds was moving them into a structure similar to guilds so that we could apply karma values to them. This means that extended subguild apps are no longer needed. The options will be there at character generation if you have the karma. If you do not then a special application will get you the point you need for these.

Yay!!!!!!!

[Jingo]

Does this mean we're doing away with the (not yet implemented) cgp system?

[Rathustra]

Hello and welcome to the release notes for Subguild Rennovations!

Our motivations behind these changes were:
~ Taking on-board feedback on extended subguilds we'd received over the last few years and couple it with how we'd seen these new additions perform.
~ We also wanted to knock the dust off of our 0 karma subguilds - which have remained almost entirely unchanged for perhaps a decade (not taking into account the addition of 'direction sense' as a skill. We wanted to canvas for feedback on these classic subguilds and also take a look at the reality of how often certain subguilds were selected in the game to help make each subguild more appealing to players.
~ Finally, we wanted to inject a clearer sense of subguilds providing characters with an immediate sub-role in the in-game world, leaving gradual development to their main guild.

Of these, the third was the easiest to achieve - we've doubled the starting skill of most skills in every subguild. This means your PC will be a little more competent at this minor aspect of their concept from the get go.

The second goal  was much more difficult and required us to take on board what exactly players disliked about existing subguilds. We found that those subguilds with low thematic appeal and narrow skillsets received the least attention - except where the skills involved fed directly into highly valued, code-intensive parts of the game (such as combat).

Not wanting to over-emphasise any particular way of playing Armageddon, we thus chose to double-down on broadening the utility of less popular subguilds and adding new, thematic options to offer new alternatives to selecting what were already popular choices.

We also took the decision to remove a selection of subguilds from the game. These were subguilds that polls to the player base showed as having little appeal - we found that these polls backed up data we collected from our PC records. Instead of simply just removing these subguilds though, we chose to take their various elements and distribute them to other subguilds, thus keeping their skills in circulation.

With all this said, let's get into an analysis of the changes:

~ Added Gladiator
~ Added Bounty Hunter

These two subguilds are efforts to produce new options for players who find their play style revolves around a very narrow collection of subguilds. Subguild Gladiator offers new choices to less combat-orientated guilds without the need to spend karma on an extended subguild. Bounty Hunter, while not introducing anything new into the pool of skills available from subguilds, does offer a solid thematic base in the vein of Mercenary and Nomad which ties firmly with its collection of skills.

~ Removed Clayworker (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Removed Stonecrafter (incorporated into Crafter)
~ Renamed 'General Crafter' to Crafter

The first of the subguild removals were removed because of the very narrow selection of skills they offered. We decided that when picking a subguild, a player's choice should offer them more than a single experience in the game world - either through the variety of skills offered or the IC niches that a subguild might be able to occupy. Stonecrafters and Clayworkers failed on both counts – they had a single craft skill that focused on decorative objects and the skills surrounding this craft skill didn't offer much in terms of game experience. While we were considering what to do with these subguilds we noticed that the General Crafter subguild was on the chopping block because of player feedback. It seemed like a natural solution to combine these three subguilds into a single subguild that allows players to forage and make a variety of objects from the things they find. Perhaps unlikely to become a massive favourite - we have given those players that pick this subguild more options all-round.

~ Removed Tinker
~ Removed Acrobat

These subguilds were polled as being unpopular and the data supported this assessment. They suffered from narrow skill selection - especially in the case of Tinker, whose craft skill had little use on its own. In order to support our push towards crafts requiring more tools we've chosen to give tool making to a variety of other subguilds so these PCs can make basic tools of their trade. Climb is a skill that is much in demand and, given that Acrobat was one of the few subguilds that granted it, we've also given climb to one or two other subguilds.

~ Removed Scavenger

Feedback on scavenger showed that it was widely used for its ability to find food in the wilderness. It was seen as essential for characters who aren't rangers who want to live away from cities. We chose to remove Scavenger because a subguild that offers very little beyond two skills considered vital was forcing players to make a choice deemed necessary. We'd much rather that players making these sorts of PC were permitted to have a wider choice in subguild. So, our solution will be to look at how finding food in the wilderness and climb are handled for all PCs to make them less of a 'must have'.

~ Renamed 'Rebel' to 'Outlaw'

The GDB has spoken. Rebels have received climb and a new name.

~ Added Minstrel

We've added a new extended subguild which possesses instrument making to the level of master and builds upon the skills in the bard subguild. While 'Majordomo' offered a selection of skills for aides, we felt that another 'social' subguild option would appeal to the players of city-slicker PCs or wandering gossips.

~ Made all skills starting level at least apprentice.

As mentioned above, this makes PCs require much less development to do the things their subguild lets them do.

~ Re-written all 0 karma subguild helpfiles.

We've gone through each subguild and have produced a new introduction that clearly describes each skill that subguild possesses. Each helpfile also contains a clear list of the skills and the levels to which the subguild can learn said skill to. This re-write began part-way through the rennovations in order to bring the 0 karma help files in line with the help files of extended subguilds. In response to player feedback we also added a clear, direct skill and skill level list.

Specific Skill Changes:

What follows is the list of each skill adjustment:

Archer:
~ Now has dyeing and direction sense.

Armormaker:
~ Now has tool making.

Bard:
~ Now has instrument making.

Con Artist:
~ Now has hide.

Forester:
~ Now has axe making.

General Crafter:
~ Now called Crafter.
~ Has lost: dyeing, tanning and rope making.
~ Now has clayworking, stoneworking and forage.

House Servant:
~ Now has hide.

Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.

Jeweler:
~ Now has tool making and haggle.

Physician:
~ Now has floristry and forage.

Rebel:
~ Now called Outlaw.
~ Now has climb.

Tailor:
~ Now has tool making.

Thief:
~ Now has hide.

Thug:
~ Now has bash.

Weaponscrafter:
~ Now has tool making

Apothecary:
~ Now has master floristry instead of brew.

Cutpurse:
~ Now has sneak and sap.

Rogue:
~ Have lost: peek and steal.
~ Now have climb and watch.
~ Now begin play with pick.
~ Adjusted how some skills branch.

[Case]

So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?

[Jihelu]

Thief:
~ Now has hide.

Oh baby


Hunter:
~ Has lost: fletchery and sneak.
~ Now has ride.

Hunter is terrible now.
Do people who already have hunter lose wilderness sneak then?
Do people who have thief and shit gain hide?

[Rathustra]

So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?

No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.

[Case]

So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?

No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.

... so everybody can get to jman watch?

[LauraMars]

I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.

[Rathustra]

So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?

No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.

... so everybody can get to jman watch?

That is not how ride is handled - so no.

[Armaddict]

I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.

Flee is a big deal.

[Rathustra]

I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.

No subguild gives flee anymore because the level of flee the subguild gave made it useless except for certain specific cases. The flee skill is something we're going to look at when we come to main guild renovations.

[Case]

So it says Minstrels get to up to jman watch. Doesn't everybody get to jman watch?

No. Watch is handled like ride for PCs whose guild/subguild doesn't provide it.

... so everybody can get to jman watch?

That is not how ride is handled - so no.

ah ok cool

[RogueGunslinger]

OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD


Why couldn't I just wait a day to make a new PC.

[LauraMars]

Even at low levels, flee is pretty useful.  I'd take a subguild with low level flee simply because it gives a couple of advantages, even at low level.  I won't go into detail here because I'm not sure it's allowed, but having easy access to the flee skill is definitely beneficial for some people.

[Dresan]

ah ok cool

Okay now explain it to me, because I too thought most if not all guilds got at least journeyman ride and watch, with some getting higher.  I only ever got journeyman watch on long lived warrior, while every other character since then has had novice because i rarely have anything worth watching i guess. Not really sure what the difference is I guess, more functionality?

I guess with new sub-guilds getting watch I will have to try it out more and see which sub-guilds get hands-free watch.  

[Armaddict]

I feel like a lot of subguilds that used to have the flee skill no longer have the flee skill.

No subguild gives flee anymore because the level of flee the subguild gave made it useless except for certain specific cases. The flee skill is something we're going to look at when we come to main guild renovations.

Novice flee is incredibly useful for guilds that do not normally have flee.

[Adhira]

Even at low levels, flee is pretty useful.  I'd take a subguild with low level flee simply because it gives a couple of advantages, even at low level.  I won't go into detail here because I'm not sure it's allowed, but having easy access to the flee skill is definitely beneficial for some people.

This is one of the skills that we determined fits better in as a base skill for all.

[LauraMars]

Even at low levels, flee is pretty useful.  I'd take a subguild with low level flee simply because it gives a couple of advantages, even at low level.  I won't go into detail here because I'm not sure it's allowed, but having easy access to the flee skill is definitely beneficial for some people.

This is one of the skills that we determined fits better in as a base skill for all.

I definitely agree with that!!!