Subguild and Sorcerer Changes

[John]

The clayworking subguild helpfile seems to still exist in the "Related topics" sidebar when you're reading a subguild helpfile. (Same with some of the other subguilds that got removed, acrobat and general crafter, etc)

I've gone through the deprecated subguild help-files and added a note to them, indicating that they are no longer available as choices. Not sure whether to leave them for posterity or delete them yet.

I'd suggest at best update the MOTD and then delete them. It's not like old players returning don't know to ask "what's changed since I was here last" given (especially of late) how much this game changes.

Here's an archive for those feeling nostalgic.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Coming from someone who has apped _nothing_ but scavenger for their subguild for years, I think its more realistic now that its gone. "Oh hi I'm a witch who never goes outside except to greb for roots and water." That's kind of weird.

[Nergal]

I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now. And will the way we pick extended sub-guilds change? Are they being linked to karma like magick guilds?

Yes, people with 1/2/8 karma will see the appropriate subguilds available as options for their PC.

I've updated the karma options helpfile:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options

[Asanadas]

My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.

Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.

[Asmoth]

Coming from someone who has apped _nothing_ but scavenger for their subguild for years, I think its more realistic now that its gone. "Oh hi I'm a witch who never goes outside except to greb for roots and water." That's kind of weird.

That is a PERFECT reason to go outside and greb sir!

Food and Water are what you require to live, there is nothing better to greb for.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I meant that they wouldn't have had the know-all for to go looking for it in the first place, for pcs that are otherwise entirely city-bound.

[Rathustra]

My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.

Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.

The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.

[rodic]

From the Release Notes for today

--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'

RIP rogue Magickers 2016.

[Malken]

From the Release Notes for today

--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'

RIP rogue Magickers 2016.

Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??

[Asanadas]

My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.

Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.

The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.

Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?

[Dresan]

I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now. And will the way we pick extended sub-guilds change? Are they being linked to karma like magick guilds?

Yes, people with 1/2/8 karma will see the appropriate subguilds available as options for their PC.

I've updated the karma options helpfile:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options

COOL!

Let me ask a few more questions to understand what this will this mean though. Will I be able to roll my ranger/protector human without making a special extended guild application if I have the karma? Will I only need to app for skill boosts now? If so, does CGP system still come in effect? As in, if I''m choosing a ranger/protector and I have two karma, will i be allowed 3 additional skill bumps, or 5 skill bumps now?

Thanks for all the work!

[rodic]

From the Release Notes for today

--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'

RIP rogue Magickers 2016.

Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??

Why would I wanna give up climb?

Oh well I guess you're right, my Life for the Sandcloth Lord.

[Rathustra]

My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.

Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.

The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.

Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?

Yes, sorry - this is what I meant.

[Synthesis]

My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.

Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.

The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.

Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?

Having mastered the basic skills, an assassin will often begin to learn a mastery of parrying enemy attacks, as well as how to more easily get out of combat.

[John]

Have I mentioned how awesome these changes are? These changes are pretty damn awesome.

[Asmoth]

From the Release Notes for today

--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'

RIP rogue Magickers 2016.

Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??

Why would I wanna give up climb?

Oh well I guess you're right, my Life for the Sandcloth Lord.

Only a certain type thrives there due to things.

[Synthesis]

From the Release Notes for today

--Scavenger removed, characters with 'Scavenger' will be converted to 'Outlaw'

RIP rogue Magickers 2016.

Can't you just tailor subguild and live in Red Storm like the rest of us??

Why would I wanna give up climb?

Oh well I guess you're right, my Life for the Sandcloth Lord.

Just use the grebber extended subguild and stop being such a noob and dying so often.

[nauta]

Yeah floristry!

FYI "Rogue" states that it requires 3 CGP but it is in the "1 Karma" category.  There might be others.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options

I have a question on 'karma restricted': If you have, say, 1 karma, does that mean you can't choose Master Tailor at all, or half-giant at all?  I always thought even if you had 0 karma you could still 'purchase' (and thus play) half-giant for 3CGP and Master Tailor for (now) 2 CGP.

While just an issue of presentation and semantics:

At least for me, it'd be less confusing all around if everything were converted into CGP instead of Karma.  Here's why: I have a karma level of, let's say, 3.  Just prima facie, it looks as if I could then play a half-giant apothecarist, since both of those are below or at karma 3.

That, or change it to 'karma points', and everyone starts out with '3 karma points' they can spend and as you gain trust you gain karma points.

Sorry, I know that's a bit of a side topic.

[Asanadas]

My concern is that there's no "flee" in the new outlaw subguild. Considering it cannibalized Acrobat which had flee, and that it makes perfect sense on all levels of thought that Outlaws should be able to flee, this is definitely something that needs looking at in my opinion.

Kill armor repair, flee for outlaw 2016.

The levels of flee offered in the subguilds were useless except in certain combinations. The decision was made to off-set the flee skill into something determined by a PC's main guild to avoid the skill taking up a slot in a subguild that can be occupied by something more thematic.

Are you going to be looking at re-assessing the main guilds' flee skills and levels? Especially Assassin, who (afaik) doesn't get this?

Yes, sorry - this is what I meant.

Excellent, this makes much more sense. Thanks!

[Barsook]

Deleted.

[roobee]

might wanna update the forage helpfile. It still says scavengers can forage for food.

[Dresan]

I still feel like guard needs ride, or a weapon skill like gladiator or low level parry.

But holy shit, now hunters get ride. Sneaky guilds rejoice.

[flurry]

I'm waiting to see the updated helpfile on Rogue now.

Cutpurse's helpfile also doesn't have the skill info in it.

FYI "Rogue" states that it requires 3 CGP but it is in the "1 Karma" category.  There might be others.

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Karma%20Options

Ditto for Cutpurse.

[Adhira]

Something to keep in mind is that the subguilds are the flavor and addition. We put in some time to update them for the more 'modern' game, we also looked at overall balance as previously subguilds were just stubbed in on whim and with no plan.  They are meant to complement guilds, but not replace them. We are about to embark on a much larger scale change to the guilds overall. As we speak I'm putting together the base outline will be kickstarting this part of the project into gear. We will be looking at guilds to ensure that what we might consider 'base level' skills are part of the main guild function, and not something that you need to stub in at subguild level.

A major addition with the subguilds was moving them into a structure similar to guilds so that we could apply karma values to them. This means that extended subguild apps are no longer needed. The options will be there at character generation if you have the karma. If you do not then a special application will get you the point you need for these.

[Warsong]

If I could have one wish fulfilled for the future overhaul of the guild system that Adhira is promising, it would be for all guilds that get parry to actually begin with it. Having to master the most difficult fighting style in order to finally learn the most basic combat maneuver is both mindblowingly unrealistic and awful for playability, and it hugely inflates the extended subguild that grants parry from the start, allowing rangers and assassins to bypass literally months of grinding.