Making outposts more attractive options

[Synthesis]

Not everything in the game should be easy.

You don't deserve to survive.

The point of the beetles is that if you slip up or get stupid, you die.

Does their existence typically limit your options when playing in Red Storm? Yes, absolutely.  And I think that's a good thing, personally.

[Jingo]

I don't deserve to survive unless if I can fight hard enough. The incentive should be to roleplay, not to skill grind, not to be able to not lag.

[BadSkeelz]

Some characters will never be able to fight hard enough.

The incentive for them is to make friends with those PCs that can. Cooperate and work together.

Tuluk's biggest failure was that it was too damn easy to survive outside the walls. A dangerous wilderness encourages people to congregate inside the walls and form connections between themselves. You know, roleplay being a part of a community. Red Storm has something like this at times. If I'm playing a non-combat PC who needs to leave Red Storm, I'm definitely looking to make friends with people who have a chance at surviving a beetle attack.

As a community base, Morin's isn't quite there yet. I wouldn't quite say Morin's has the same problem of Tuluk (it's easy to survive if you stay within a room or two of the gate, but the north is rather more dangerous these days) but it does seem to have trouble retaining a player population. I think part of its problem is that it's hard to build a life for yourself in Morin's. Jobs are limited and lowpaying, and there's no apartments to claim and make a space of your own. These two factors combined with the already low play count encourage Morin-originating PCs to set out for Luir's or beyond at first opportunity.

Morin's has the same problem as Cenyr: a nice place to visit (especially to trade) but not a place I would want to spend most of my time. Which is a shame, since I really like the flavor I get from Morin's.

[lostinspace]

I like the drov beetles around Red Storm, and I honestly don't find them overly threatening. It's not hard to avoid them, it's only when the weather goes bad that they become truly dangerous. I remember having to hide from one and contact someone to come save me, I couldn't get out of a storm and if I walked the wrong way I'd walk right up to the beetle. The only person I could find also couldn't fight a beetle. It was exciting being stuck waiting for rescue.

[Jingo]

The incentive for them is to make friends with those PCs that can. Cooperate and work together.

Yeah but not always realistic. Playtimes, organizing around sandstorms, and not even finding someone badass and willing enough to babysit you are significant hurdles that can make it impossible. These problems are exacerbated by smaller pc populations. The best solutions is either to just grind out your warranger (tempted to say like a twink, here) or get rid of beetles. Or make Redstorm a no start zone. You should know as well as I do that relying on other characters for your goals is a non-starter.

Tuluk's biggest failure was that it was too damn easy to survive outside the walls. A dangerous wilderness encourages people to congregate inside the walls and form connections between themselves. You know, roleplay being a part of a community. Red Storm has something like this at times. If I'm playing a non-combat PC who needs to leave Red Storm, I'm definitely looking to make friends with people who have a chance at surviving a beetle attack.

This is incorrect. It might have been true back when there was only scrab around Allanak. But Allanak currently, like Tuluk you need to know the dangers. Like Tuluk you need to know where to find certain resources. I've played a hidden mage wandering around the allanaki region and got by just fine with no skills. This is actually harder to do around Tuluk, largely because of terrain and no gortok analogue.

I can't comment on Morin's.

[Jingo]

I like the drov beetles around Red Storm, and I honestly don't find them overly threatening. It's not hard to avoid them, it's only when the weather goes bad that they become truly dangerous. I remember having to hide from one and contact someone to come save me, I couldn't get out of a storm and if I walked the wrong way I'd walk right up to the beetle. The only person I could find also couldn't fight a beetle. It was exciting being stuck waiting for rescue.

Again, you haven't encountered the ones that will kill you before you can blink

[Patuk]

Some characters will never be able to fight hard enough.

The incentive for them is to make friends with those PCs that can. Cooperate and work together.

Tuluk's biggest failure was that it was too damn easy to survive outside the walls. A dangerous wilderness encourages people to congregate inside the walls and form connections between themselves. You know, roleplay being a part of a community. Red Storm has something like this at times. If I'm playing a non-combat PC who needs to leave Red Storm, I'm definitely looking to make friends with people who have a chance at surviving a beetle attack.

As a community base, Morin's isn't quite there yet. I wouldn't quite say Morin's has the same problem of Tuluk (it's easy to survive if you stay within a room or two of the gate, but the north is rather more dangerous these days) but it does seem to have trouble retaining a player population. I think part of its problem is that it's hard to build a life for yourself in Morin's. Jobs are limited and lowpaying, and there's no apartments to claim and make a space of your own. These two factors combined with the already low play count encourage Morin-originating PCs to set out for Luir's or beyond at first opportunity.

Morin's has the same problem as Cenyr: a nice place to visit (especially to trade) but not a place I would want to spend most of my time. Which is a shame, since I really like the flavor I get from Morin's.

It's a feature, not a bug.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

[Jingo]

Sounds to me like the same problem as Redstorm has.

I think staff should re-evaluate why we have these outposts. Is it so there are places where only characters with high combat skills can safely visit and hang out? Plus the occasional GMH groups and Byn? Are they just places where hidden magickers can easily isolate themselves themselves from the playerbase?

The question quickly becomes, why would you play in these areas if you are not the above?

[nauta]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

No idea, but it might be useful to draw a distinction:

(a) items that require a bump in staff workload, e.g., understanding loads of houses each with their own histories, NPCs each with their own personalities, complex political relationships, etc.

(b) items that don't, e.g., apartments, outposts with minimal histories, etc.

Now, granted this distinction, even with (b) you could draw a distinction between:

(b.i) items that don't increase staff workload but make interaction kind of strained, e.g., apartments, far-away places, big instakill monsters

(b.ii) items that don't increase staff workload but don't strain interaction.

Blah.  Anyway, I don't know.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

No idea, but it might be useful to draw a distinction:

(a) items that require a bump in staff workload, e.g., understanding loads of houses each with their own histories, NPCs each with their own personalities, complex political relationships, etc.

(b) items that don't, e.g., apartments, outposts with minimal histories, etc.

Now, granted this distinction, even with (b) you could draw a distinction between:

(b.i) items that don't increase staff workload but make interaction kind of strained, e.g., apartments, far-away places, big instakill monsters

(b.ii) items that don't increase staff workload but don't strain interaction.

Blah.  Anyway, I don't know.

I'm not talking about building items or rooms at all.

I'm talking about monitoring and responding to requests from all the players that are now in the independent domain instead of the various clan domains.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

Two* reasons.

1) Variety is good for the game. Allanak is great, I love it, I admire how smoothly it seems to run in terms of reinforcing its own character... but I don't want to play there every. Single. PC. And I just haven't found the coded tribes quite compelling enough to commit to a PC in one of them yet, so I alternate between Nak and the Outposts.

2) Making the Outposts more attractive to play in does not mean taking them up to Tuluk-levels of documentation and Staff Oversight. Tuluk was fundamentally broken: unable to attract players but, because it was Armageddon's second city, requiring a full staffing team. So you have twelve-fifteen PCs with three to five staffers hovering over them. Meanwhile, Allanak has triple that number with the same level of Staff. I believe Tuluk's Staffing inefficiencies were more a consideration for its closure than its player-dispersing effect.

A well-structured setting will run smoothly without needing micromanging from Staff. Red Storm is probably as close to this ideal as any. It has a distinct flavor, it has jobs, it's a viable place to base a character and have them live out their life story... and yet it doesn't require a bunch of sponsored roles and Staff working their butts off making sure it feels alive.

*All other numbers in this post will have been pulled out of my ass.

[BadSkeelz]

Sounds to me like the same problem as Redstorm has.

I think staff should re-evaluate why we have these outposts. Is it so there are places where only characters with high combat skills can safely visit and hang out? Plus the occasional GMH groups and Byn? Are they just places where hidden magickers can easily isolate themselves themselves from the playerbase?

The question quickly becomes, why would you play in these areas if you are not the above?

Because Armageddon is not a game where everyone should be able to do anything they want on their own.

Players should have to work together (and against each other) to survive. Dangerous wilderness areas and hardscrabble nuggets of civilization reinforce the setting and encourage players to play together.

If you're a Character who's just doing you're own thing in your own apartment/cave/tower, you're adding nothing to game if you're not involving other players. Outposts give a place for these Roles to live; the limited nature of the outposts encourage them to take risks; the dangers of the wilderness encourage people to make allies to minimize those risks.

[Jingo]

What game are you playing? Sounds to me like I'd love it. The reality for Armageddon is more or less what I described above.

[BadSkeelz]

What game are you playing? Sounds to me like I'd love it. The reality for Armageddon is more or less what I described above.

I play a game where I try to make as little money from NPCs as possible, spend it as fast as possible, and believe that every time I step outside the walls of civilization I am about to fucking die.

The coded reality of Arm is about how you describe it, Jingo. I just choose not to play to it.

[Jingo]

Last post was dickish, apologies. Nice rhetorical embellishment, jackass.

I'm addressing the way the incentives mold the behavior of players. And I'll contend there is a reason there are nothing but mega-fighters and magickers in certain outposts. Everyone else seems to die or migrate to the cities.

[nauta]

Last post was dickish, apologies.

I'm addressing the way the incentives mold the behavior of players. And I'll contend there is a reason there are nothing but mega-fighters and magickers in certain outposts. Everyone else seems to die or migrate to the cities.

I agree with what you are saying, Jingo.

The outposts don't have very much support for meaningful flavour roles.  You'd usually get incredibly bored from the limited interaction and so store or die due to the megafauna coupled with the insensibility to have not hired the Byn.  And this is why only very (codedly) powerful players hang out in outposts, for very long at least.  Occasionally, a colourful character pops up, and then they are gone.

I'm not sure what the solution is.  

1. Hire the Byn.  This doesn't work if you play offpeak or if you play a concept that is, well, a flavour role, and so broke.

2. No mega fauna / make the route safer.  I think that's what you are advocating.  I'm not sure what the pros and cons of that are.  It certainly would mean that people wouldn't hire the Byn very much, and so it'd be a net loss I think.

I think it might be OK to have the -route- dangerous, but the immediate area around the outpost maybe could be made less dangerous, so then my florist-floutist-painter could thrive, even if I have to wait until peak hours to get from the outpost to civilization.

[Molten Heart]

A stable in the mul outpost would be cool especially if there were some way for only outcasts and other locals to have access (not tourists or other outsiders)

[BadSkeelz]

No harm done, Jingo. I think it helped me make my point well.

1. Hire the Byn.  This doesn't work if you play offpeak or if you play a concept that is, well, a flavour role, and so broke.

2. No mega fauna / make the route safer.  I think that's what you are advocating.  I'm not sure what the pros and cons of that are.  It certainly would mean that people wouldn't hire the Byn very much, and so it'd be a net loss I think.

I think it might be OK to have the -route- dangerous, but the immediate area around the outpost maybe could be made less dangerous, so then my florist-floutist-painter could thrive, even if I have to wait until peak hours to get from the outpost to civilization.

Re: 1) This is why I like how Red Storm has spice sifting (as well as other, arguably broken job cracks). You can acquire enough coins to entice the Byn to come out and get you. With recent changes to Byn roles you may also have better chance of getting an offpeak escort. It does require the Byn to have sufficiently active, skilled, well-known and play-time dispersed characters, though. That could be a lot to ask for. I encourage the Byn to always keep their rumor posts in the outposts up to date with contact information, but in such a high turnover clan that can be hard. Makes me wish there was a "Byn liaison" NPC in the taverns of Storm and Morin's, who you could >discuss with and get names of Sergeants and Mercenaries from.

Re: 2) If you make the route safe, the Byn (and combat PCs in general) lose a lot of their reason for existence. You'll either have less people wanting to play them, or we'll just dedicate our playtimes to raiding the weaklings who've ruined the game for us I guess if you'd rather be rekted by a player than a drov beetle, this might be seen as a positive?

[Dresan]

Let me just remind everyone that indies are huge source of interaction and plots. They are often the very best source of fun, since clans are static and most have already won the game (in cities). All these outposts need is a little more love. All this means is giving players the tools they need to make a life for their character.

The cities and clans will benefit the most from this, since there will be enemies to find, friends to make, and interesting encounters beyond just the gaj. It will make the world a more interesting place when you can go to morins and find a group operating from there.


Honestly the only thing clans actually need is REAL COMPETITION. Not only from each other but from other forces that are not so easily dealt with by crying to the nearest templar. With tuluk gone, whatever GMH resources/staff/estates in left that city should severely crippled if anything remains at all. But I'm getting off topic.

Again the more love outposts are given, the more content indies will be able to create outside (and even inside) Allanak for people to find, interact with and enjoy.

[solera]

Some times I may want to make a hermit/rogue/ explorer etc not interacting with any PC. Which is why I am grateful for those outposts and the experience of a single player style. True, eventually they die or join something.

[Case]

Let me just remind everyone that indies are huge source of interaction and plots. They are often the very best source of fun, since clans are static and most have already won the game (in cities). All these outposts need is a little more love. All this means is giving players the tools they need to make a life for their character.

The cities and clans will benefit the most from this, since there will be enemies to find, friends to make, and interesting encounters beyond just the gaj. It will make the world a more interesting place when you can go to morins and find a group operating from there.


Honestly the only thing clans actually need is REAL COMPETITION. Not only from each other but from other forces that are not so easily dealt with by crying to the nearest templar. With tuluk gone, whatever GMH resources/staff/estates in left that city should severely crippled if anything remains at all. But I'm getting off topic.

Again the more love outposts are given, the more content indies will be able to create outside (and even inside) Allanak for people to find, interact with and enjoy.

You're like the indie propagandist. Saying they're the very best source of fun is pushing it a bit far in my opinion. Indies are great and all, but they shouldn't have it as easy as big clan clannies. Ever. It's like their biggest advantage.

[Dresan]

Please don't misunderstand, I don't want to get into the whole, clan members deserve everything and if you don't join you deserve nothing. Right now clan member get pretty much everything handed to them so long as they are obedient and survive, thats great, I'm okay with that. I've argued for clans in the past too, just that right now I feel outposts need some love.

Let me rephrase that though, indies are often a great source of content, which promotes betrayal, murderer and corruption. This often gives cities and clans stuff to do and deal with while they wait for staff to generate bigger plots for them to tackle.

Indies are often playing:

The Bandits
The Traitors
The Heathens
The Enemies
The Entrepreneurs
The Random Encounters

This is just to name a few things indies often do. However, some of these roles start off in clans before being discovered and driven out, so this isn't just an argument for indies, its more of an arguments to encourage more conflict in the world and its eventual resolution. Its such a loss for everyone, even clan members, when the roles I listed above are stored because their only option is often one place without a bank and has common blinding storms that can force you to tavern sit for undetermined periods of time. We just got a bounty hunter sub-guild right, wouldn't it be nice if people had a reason to stick around so they could be hunted/betrayed or join a strong group and become recurring thorn on someone's side?

One thing I learned from the population having dipped for a while is that you don't need a lot of people to have fun, a handful is enough to generate some really fun plots that can involve many other people. There is no need to squeeze everyone in to the Gaj where you can't really do anything interesting anyways. There is no reason to believe giving these outposts more love will result in anything other than more fun for the entire known and just a more richer experience when playing any character.