Making outposts more attractive options

[Dresan]

I don't believe I've seen or participated in a single internal discussion where anyone said "let's make outposts lame".

Besides banks, what do you think would make these locations more attractive options?

1. Homes:

For years Luirs had a bank, but it never felt like a good place to live. Once upon a time I thought it was because of how some kuracis could be heavy handed. However after seeing the shanties, see  life in luirs, interactions, between the tibes, kurac, hunters, north, south. What a difference.The only thing is that kuraci memebers should not be renting in the shanties, they should have some better housing options ontop of barracks.

In short, I would really love to see, morins and cenyr get their own version of home with the same love as the shanties. Love those trunks.

2. Area:
Redstorm has apartments. Sure it has no bank,but you can still manage. Despite that, when choosing between between luirs and redstorm, I would rather stay in Luirs. The reason is mostly because the area around luirs is much more newbie friendly and interesting to play in. I think I would even rather be in Cenyr too, because I have allanak on one side, luirs on another. It could use a touch of love but not as much as redstorm. Morins of course being one of the best areas in the game in my opinion of course.

The area of redstorm specifically is the block of area north of redstorm. Oddly I see no problems with the southern area of redstorm, it feels more fluent. However the northern area has always seemed clunky to me, either blinding storm or completely clear depending on server time. You can step out of the gate to have a beetle attack you. That area needs to be expanded a bit more, the dangers should still be there, but the area around the village should be given a tiny bit of the allanak treatment and made more playable, just like around allanak the biggest danger should be the PC there. Weather should be shitty somedays but it should probably be closer to allanak's weather for playability sake.  

3.Pissing people off in one place, shouldn't exile/killed in other places.  

All outpost should continue following redstorm policy of:'Just don't shit where you eat'. Whatever happens outside the wall is not their problem. Its served Redstorm well all these years. I am not saying this is always the case but right now it does feel like kurac has every political reason to keep  allanak happy.  I am hoping that someday luirs, outposts, and the pah, become interesting enough that kurac can cut almost all political ties to allanak agian without making it seem like kuraci players are losing a huge chunk of interaction. They managed in the past, but back then it was more attached to the hip with tuluk.

4. A little room to grow.

This doesn't mean in the same way as allanak with minor houses or warehouses, but in redstorm at least, i could some places being made available to be used by more than just two people.

[evilcabbage]

van sized monsters can sit right outside the gates of allanak.

you are not safe.

the beetles get there because people lead them there.

same with mekillots.

[Inks]

Lately I prefer playing in outposts (including Morins). I find them extremely attractive due to playstyle and mostly IC reasons for the pcs I am playing. The rentable spaces in Luirs was a superb move by Imms. Kudos.

[Dresan]

I'm not saying there aren't dangers in allanak. Those dangers have always been there.

And then after some discussion it was decided to also put chalton, vultures and other stuff around that weren't van sized.

I would like to see the same done for redstorm's northern area, and possibly expanded slightly.

[Miradus]

I like the outposts. I've almost exclusively played in the north and it's a pretty cool swath of territory. My life expectancy in the south has always been much, much lower.

[Armaddict]

I actually think the change to move dangerous wildlife away from cities was -bad-, not good.

I far prefer to maintain a 'Desert's a dangerous place' world than one that is built like an MMO with progressively harder encounters as you draw further away from the city.

[Dresan]

The known is a big place though, it doesn't take too many rooms before it becomes as dangerous as can be, though I've never died from a mek, only other PCs    It just makes sense that the most dangerous stuff is probably the first to go. You don't see wild bears near RL cities that often. The fact that people hunt that stuff for resources mean that anything near a city would have probably made into a shirt a long time ago.

Realism aside however, from a playability and fun perspective, the area around allanak is huge success, kudos to staff for making that happen and I hope they do the same with the area north of Redstorm.

[Culinary Critic]

I actually think the change to move dangerous wildlife away from cities was -bad-, not good.

I far prefer to maintain a 'Desert's a dangerous place' world than one that is built like an MMO with progressively harder encounters as you draw further away from the city.

Agree completely with the second point.  But disagree with the first.  People leave a city to hunt, greg, whatever.  As they get a couple of rooms away, the chances of a person visiting a specific room decreases.  Meaning that the rooms farther away will have less visitors and thus less chance of having the big nasty thing there killed, driven off or chasing someone away.  But those rooms closer to the city have more visitors and are less likely to remain free of people encountering the big nasty thing.

If we had a large virtual population leaving and returning regularly, those closer rooms would naturally have less big nasty things in them.  Thus the way things are makes sense to me.

But, on the original topic (sorry), I've played one character in Storm and hated it.  I've visited Luir's for more than a day at a time and pretty much hated it.  This could easily be because I play more off-peak, but I can only solo so much.  (yes it was a while back, pre-Tuluk-closing, and I should probably try again.  I will commit to do this).  I also found that anyone I did run into was passing through, so had little time to develop any relationships other than very, very casual.

[Chettaman]

luir's:
To help make outposts more attractive I want to suggest people who want interaction to sit by the firepit in luir's, because that's were every passing person usually goes to hang out - so they don't have to pay any fees before they leave like they were going to do anyway.
Or have people stable their mounts and sit in the bar for a set amount of time equal to how long they think their mount needs to rest.
wildlife: the nasty stuff around there is smart so they stay away from the outpost. It makes sense.
love the apartments. Storage space is effing huge, though. HUGE. Being able to actually live in luir's has made it awesome to me.

Red storm:
It's fine, I think. Nasties all around surrounded by a super-storm that is completely ''unpredictable''. People can leave a place and go to another place to make money and then return home. That happens. To make red storm more appealing, I would encourage this idea. Sometimes people travel hours to do work they want to do, or have to do. Allanak is pretty far, but you could just walk to it. You don't have to live somewhere just to work there. Especially as a commoner/indie.

the farm village east of allanak (yaroch):
Move the bar closer to the drunks. You have to get through a damn maze to get to the bar there! ... I guess it's not really a problem, though.
More merchants that buy things. And apartments. And strippers.
More NPCs that respond to the discuss command to help set the ambiance of a farming village.

the farm village west of allanak:
all the same stuff as yaroch.

cenyr:
NPCs that respond to discuss

Morins:
Apartments and npcs who discuss.

[rodic]

Mul outpost could use a bar...

Just my opinion... man.

[shadeoux]

Mul outpost could use a bar...

Just my opinion... man.

The Mul outpost could use a bunch of stuff. And I foresee there plenty of opportunities for growth there more than anywhere else. 

[Jihelu]

Morins, if its considered an outpost I guess it is?, is pretty gucci in terms of content.

[Majikal]

Mul outpost could use a bar...

Just my opinion... man.

The Mul outpost could use a bunch of stuff. And I foresee there plenty of opportunities for growth there more than anywhere else. 

For a place with history and a cool location it really takes some effort to treat it it right. Icly, I know how the place is supposed to feel. Oocly, it's hard to look at it as more than a place where 5 npc's kick it.

[nauta]

What I'd love -- with places like the mul outpost, Cenyr, and other various little nooks that have some history attached to them -- I'd love it if some veteran players or staff would toss up some discuss scripts on the NPCs about that lore.  A grizzled mul settles down at the bar next to you, and tells you everything.

To a new player, those places just look like a few NPCs, their descriptions, and the room descriptions.

[tiptoe]

What I'd love -- with places like the mul outpost, Cenyr, and other various little nooks that have some history attached to them -- I'd love it if some veteran players or staff would toss up some discuss scripts on the NPCs about that lore.  A grizzled mul settles down at the bar next to you, and tells you everything.

To a new player, those places just look like a few NPCs, their descriptions, and the room descriptions.

I could see this potentially happening for the mul outpost, but not Cenyr. Though with the mul outpost, I think the NPCs might be just as likely to kill you than give you a story.

Cenyr is its own beast, and is not available to be used in PC backgrounds for a reason. I would check with staff for any further elucidation than that.

I do agree with maybe having the farming communities be a little more interactive. But for Morin's, it would seem counterproductive to close Tuluk and just build a baby Tuluk next to it.

[Molten Heart]

What I'd love -- with places like the mul outpost, Cenyr, and other various little nooks that have some history attached to them -- I'd love it if some veteran players or staff would toss up some discuss scripts on the NPCs about that lore.  A grizzled mul settles down at the bar next to you, and tells you everything.

To a new player, those places just look like a few NPCs, their descriptions, and the room descriptions.

This is cool. The mul outpost is an interesting place. It isn't a welcome place exactly, but some people are a little more unwelcome than others. If there were some way to allow the place to differentiate between outcasts and someone's employees stopping in for various business, some really cool things could be done with the place.

[Dresan]

Closing tuluk was about mostly about consolidating staff effort than anything else and so far so good, but this doesn't mean we can't have homes, interactive NPC and more livable places in other locations.  If there was anything to learn from the closure of tuluk, from other MMOs in the past(SW:galaxies anyone?), its that when you remove the places/things people like to play, they don't  just start playing in whats available, they just get bored and leave. If people want to live in these places, work from these places, and play from these places all the better for places like allanak, some people will, some people won't but it doesn't cost anything to have more places available like redstorm and luirs.



I would love to learn more about Cenyr, and its a damn shame the only way is to ask the staff about it, or hope there is someone in the game who knows more about the place then me and their character has a reason to know that information and a reason to tell me. I think NPC willing to sell you the history and story of a place is a great idea. Talk about actually being able to find out IC huh?

[Vwest]

I would love to see some apartments in Morins.

It's the perfect 'frontier' type of town where a lane of a dozen log cabins would be completely thematic. Where Tuluk felt like a glaring eyesore and exception on the rest of the game, Morins has a real roughneck feel that works with the rest of the game very well. I wouldn't have ever considered a northern PC when Tuluk was open, but I'd definitely consider it in a town like Morins.

It also feels like a really good opportunity to have a lot more furniture made available from NPC shops, to give the place a functional export that would be in demand from PCs all over the world. Logs are nice and all, but only a narrow selection of people want them, where as anyone with an apartment probably wants more options, both cheap and expensive, to customize it and make it feel like theirs.

Just don't build it up and add Templars and clans and the rest of that garbage. It's a nice place for people who don't want to deal with that all the time, or at all.

Throw a bank in Red Storm for the same reason.

[Case]

If outposts get more livable, I hope travel between them gets harder than one mount's worth of stamina.

[Dresan]

If outpost get more livable, you'll probably find yourself stopped by players who have no fear of just looking you in the eye, and asking for your stuff.


If you run, they'll just outright attack you next time you are traveling through those parts.

[BadSkeelz]

I kind of like the lack of a bank in Red Storm. It gives the town a poorer feel and, at least for me, encouraged me to spend coins on goods and services rather than just amass wealth.

I'd love to see some apartments in Morin's, though.

[solera]

Morins. Not a new thought. I'd like to see an update to the rumour board occasionally, telling the story of some poor sod that has come from the city. To give a hint, to new PCs and others, of what it's like back there.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

van sized monsters can sit right outside the gates of allanak.

you are not safe.

the beetles get there because people lead them there.

same with mekillots.

A mekillot got into Allanak and started killing people once.

The Byn and the Arm had to team up to take it down after it killed a bunch of npcs.

[Barsook]

Morins. Not a new thought. I'd like to see an update to the rumour board occasionally, telling the story of some poor sod that has come from the city. To give a hint, to new PCs and others, of what it's like back there.

Yeah.  The playerbase hasn't heard of anything from Tuluk in ages now. 

[Lizzie]

Agreed about Tuluk v Morin's. There should be at least occasional trickles of rumors, even if it's just:

>A bedraggled inked Tuluki was pulled in from outside the camp's gates last week. His left eyesocket was empty,
but for an oozing infection seeping from the cavity. His ribcage appeared to be broken, and angry welts covered
the skin on front and back of his torso and legs. A slice of skin had been cut out from his cheek, leaving a scant
hint of purple ink curved near the excision. Through swollen, bloody lips, he was babbling about "them"
and pointing toward the looming city to the east. His final words before succumbing to death, were "Tuluk, n-n-n!"

Residents of Morin's tsked sadly at the corpse as it was set atop the pyre and destroyed. A few were noticed to have
shed tears. But so far no one has been willing to admit to know the dead man, and it is likely his identity will be
lost to eternal silence.

[Desertman]

I would love to see some apartments in Morins.

It's the perfect 'frontier' type of town where a lane of a dozen log cabins would be completely thematic.

I like this idea.

It feels "cozy" in my mind.

+1

[Case]

Morins. Not a new thought. I'd like to see an update to the rumour board occasionally, telling the story of some poor sod that has come from the city. To give a hint, to new PCs and others, of what it's like back there.

Yeah.  The playerbase hasn't heard of anything from Tuluk in ages now. 

It is virtually open and stuff, it's not some locked up fortress

[BadSkeelz]

Ehhhh, not really. It's kind of in a North Korea situation. The gates are shut to everyone except those who has passes (or the money to bribe their way in).

Your average Tuluki commoner PC cannot get in to Tuluk.

[Erythil]

Tuluk has been annexed by the Imperium and Muk is a lost primarch

The Dragon is a Warp entity and Zalanthas is scheduled for exterminatus

[BadSkeelz]

Finally, I can openly proclaim my dedication to Khorne.

[Case]

Ehhhh, not really. It's kind of in a North Korea situation. The gates are shut to everyone except those who has passes (or the money to bribe their way in).

Your average Tuluki commoner PC cannot get in to Tuluk.

Yeah they can. They can virtually visit family. If they're a marked family.

[Vwest]

Tuluk has been annexed by the Imperium and Muk is a lost primarch

The Dragon is a Warp entity and Zalanthas is scheduled for exterminatus

So, wait.

Does that make everyone in the Tablelands orks, or...?

[solera]

Ehhhh, not really. It's kind of in a North Korea situation. The gates are shut to everyone except those who has passes (or the money to bribe their way in).

Your average Tuluki commoner PC cannot get in to Tuluk.

Yeah they can. They can virtually visit family. If they're a marked family.

And out??

[nauta]

In Morin's, there is a rumour board that contains posts from the Tuluk rumour board before the big events.  I'm not sure what rumours are up there, but there's also this from the chronology page:

1641 (Year 24 Age 22)

    Unaffiliated southern refugees are rounded up from various slums in Tuluk by the Legions. Several weeks after the first disappearances, a force led by High Templar Jurinia Winrothol takes a force of listless figures masked by burlap sacks to the northern gates of Ten'Sarak, along with regular soldiers of His Legions, including the Sun's Furies, and various Faithful. After a short siege, the Tuluki forces break through the northern gate and systematically slaughter the remaining southern troops in the encampment before setting it ablaze. Tuluk abandons the razed camp and claims victory over Allanak.

    High Templar Jurinia's shambling force grows as citizens and non-citizens alike begin to disappear from the streets of Tuluk. Riots begin to take place, and templars for and against High Templar Jurinia square off in the Red Sun Commons. The encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious and calling for the gates of Tuluk to be closed. Denizens of Tuluk flee as fighting emerges between the two factions within the Unified Order.

[evilcabbage]

what we can draw from that is that those gates are shut and not opening.

[Case]

Ehhhh, not really. It's kind of in a North Korea situation. The gates are shut to everyone except those who has passes (or the money to bribe their way in).

Your average Tuluki commoner PC cannot get in to Tuluk.

Yeah they can. They can virtually visit family. If they're a marked family.

And out??

Yeah. It was posted about at the time after it closed. It's not like people don't need to eat, so at least trade will be occurring right?

[Malken]

As long as virtual citizens are still able to steal virtual belshun fruits from heavily guarded trees while Staff isn't looking, I'm good with it!

[nauta]

What's REALLY important, however, is that

... [t]he encounter ends with High Templar Poma Uaptal knocking High Templar Jurinia unconscious.

A High Templar KO.  Tres tulucois.

[BadSkeelz]

Everytime I think about that scene, I wish staff hadn't kind of mucked up announcing how the closure was actually going to play out. I probably wouldn't have stored or been so disgruntled over it.

Anyway, uh, log cabins in Morin's, please. Or another converted watch tower.

[Jingo]

The nasties around red-storm should be looked at. Particularly in the way they interact with certain crowd controlling magicks that flip their run flag and make them 1000 times more dangerous. If you're a non-combat, they can walk in and kill you before you even blink. I've been bringing this up for a long time, I wish staff would look into it.

Otherwise none of the monsters in the wilderness are dangerous if you have decent ride. It's when you run into complications that gets you killed. Such as sandstorms, mismanaged resources (stamina, health, food, water), tracking critters and often lag.

[Synthesis]

Eh, I'm not sure some weird edge-case where a critter gets its run flag flipped on by fleeing away from an obscure spell warrants a code overhaul.

If you can't survive a first-round assault without the potential for being reel-locked...you should think twice about riding through drov beetle country, or you should accept the fact that occasionally, you're going to be beetle food because of your high-risk behaviors.

If nasty things were always easy to flee from, they wouldn't really be very nasty at all.

[Jingo]

Eh, I'm not sure some weird edge-case where a critter gets its run flag flipped on by fleeing away from an obscure spell warrants a code overhaul.

If you can't survive a first-round assault without the potential for being reel-locked...you should think twice about riding through drov beetle country, or you should accept the fact that occasionally, you're going to be beetle food because of your high-risk behaviors.

If nasty things were always easy to flee from, they wouldn't really be very nasty at all.

I disagree. That's 90% of characters. I've played staff-sponsored roles based in the particular area that could have gotten insta-gibbed by beetles. Even if my whole clan was traveling together, there would have been no saving the one that got beetle-mac'd.

Also it happens plenty often, with all the mages that live in Red Storm.

[JackGibbons]

If you can't survive a first-round assault without the potential for being reel-locked...you should think twice about riding through drov beetle countryever going to Red Storm, or you should accept the fact that occasionally, you're going to be beetle food because of your high-risk behaviors.

Diagonal look + running beetle instant attack + reel lock creates a perfect enough storm that, though rare, is nasty. I don't know if the simple, direct route to RS from Nak is supposed to carry THAT level of instagib risk. I wouldn't call wanting to visit RS an inherently high risk behavior. I think there's a balance point between 'this game is so easy, it's boring', and 'RP that could be enhanced by allowing people and plots to mingle between towns and cities is stifled because few people feel safe enough to travel between even the closest ones.'
I didn't realize the cause for them sometimes attacking extra rapidly, though I recall having seen them in that state from time to time. As Jingo's suggestion goes, if the 'run' that permits them to enter and immediately attack faster than lag + human reaction could be dropped back to walk, that would be sufficient for people to at least try to get away.

[Jingo]

I remember once staff put fear on a bahamet so that it would run away from our badass legion squad. Or maybe just from Brot.

Somewhere in the next few days, that same bahamet nearly wiped the unit.

For that reason alone I think fear code should be looked at.

[Jihelu]

There should be a code that prevents animals from being fucking stupid.
Gortok rushing a room of five soldiers?
Stupid.
Mekillot doing it?
Mekillot is smart, it shall eat good tonight.
Mekillot rushing a group of two battalions?
Lets not.

[JackGibbons]

There should be a code that prevents animals from being fucking stupid.
Gortok rushing a room of five soldiers?
Stupid.
Mekillot doing it?
Mekillot is smart, it shall eat good tonight.
Mekillot rushing a group of two battalions?
Lets not.

Or the kagor lemming waves.

[Molten Heart]

There should be a code that prevents animals from being fucking stupid.
Gortok rushing a room of five soldiers?
Stupid.
Mekillot doing it?
Mekillot is smart, it shall eat good tonight.
Mekillot rushing a group of two battalions?
Lets not.

Not just animals either. How about a lone gith attacking a group of three half-giants? A group of T'zai Byn?

[Synthesis]

Eh, I'm not sure some weird edge-case where a critter gets its run flag flipped on by fleeing away from an obscure spell warrants a code overhaul.

If you can't survive a first-round assault without the potential for being reel-locked...you should think twice about riding through drov beetle country, or you should accept the fact that occasionally, you're going to be beetle food because of your high-risk behaviors.

If nasty things were always easy to flee from, they wouldn't really be very nasty at all.

I disagree. That's 90% of characters. I've played staff-sponsored roles based in the particular area that could have gotten insta-gibbed by beetles. Even if my whole clan was traveling together, there would have been no saving the one that got beetle-mac'd.

Also it happens plenty often, with all the mages that live in Red Storm.

I think that's a reasonable cost of doing business in Red Storm as a magicker.

[Jingo]

I was not playing a magicker.

It'd be reasonable if the confluence of magickers in Redstorm could actually be icly attributed to making the creatures more dangerous. At the moment it's just a quirk of the code.

And no I still don't see the point of the beetles themselves. All they serve is to clean out the population of Redstorm that arn't 10daymagickers/10daywarrangers. Which might make sense for places like cenyr or the mul outpost. But not for any area that is a starting location.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like the idea of beetles murdering people outside of the smaller settlements. The same with Yompars and Kryl in Morins, and everything south of Luirs. Besides I could swear they were already made less dangerous by spawning them off the path to Allanak. But that might have been my imagination.

[Synthesis]

Not everything in the game should be easy.

You don't deserve to survive.

The point of the beetles is that if you slip up or get stupid, you die.

Does their existence typically limit your options when playing in Red Storm? Yes, absolutely.  And I think that's a good thing, personally.

[Jingo]

I don't deserve to survive unless if I can fight hard enough. The incentive should be to roleplay, not to skill grind, not to be able to not lag.

[BadSkeelz]

Some characters will never be able to fight hard enough.

The incentive for them is to make friends with those PCs that can. Cooperate and work together.

Tuluk's biggest failure was that it was too damn easy to survive outside the walls. A dangerous wilderness encourages people to congregate inside the walls and form connections between themselves. You know, roleplay being a part of a community. Red Storm has something like this at times. If I'm playing a non-combat PC who needs to leave Red Storm, I'm definitely looking to make friends with people who have a chance at surviving a beetle attack.

As a community base, Morin's isn't quite there yet. I wouldn't quite say Morin's has the same problem of Tuluk (it's easy to survive if you stay within a room or two of the gate, but the north is rather more dangerous these days) but it does seem to have trouble retaining a player population. I think part of its problem is that it's hard to build a life for yourself in Morin's. Jobs are limited and lowpaying, and there's no apartments to claim and make a space of your own. These two factors combined with the already low play count encourage Morin-originating PCs to set out for Luir's or beyond at first opportunity.

Morin's has the same problem as Cenyr: a nice place to visit (especially to trade) but not a place I would want to spend most of my time. Which is a shame, since I really like the flavor I get from Morin's.

[lostinspace]

I like the drov beetles around Red Storm, and I honestly don't find them overly threatening. It's not hard to avoid them, it's only when the weather goes bad that they become truly dangerous. I remember having to hide from one and contact someone to come save me, I couldn't get out of a storm and if I walked the wrong way I'd walk right up to the beetle. The only person I could find also couldn't fight a beetle. It was exciting being stuck waiting for rescue.

[Jingo]

The incentive for them is to make friends with those PCs that can. Cooperate and work together.

Yeah but not always realistic. Playtimes, organizing around sandstorms, and not even finding someone badass and willing enough to babysit you are significant hurdles that can make it impossible. These problems are exacerbated by smaller pc populations. The best solutions is either to just grind out your warranger (tempted to say like a twink, here) or get rid of beetles. Or make Redstorm a no start zone. You should know as well as I do that relying on other characters for your goals is a non-starter.

Tuluk's biggest failure was that it was too damn easy to survive outside the walls. A dangerous wilderness encourages people to congregate inside the walls and form connections between themselves. You know, roleplay being a part of a community. Red Storm has something like this at times. If I'm playing a non-combat PC who needs to leave Red Storm, I'm definitely looking to make friends with people who have a chance at surviving a beetle attack.

This is incorrect. It might have been true back when there was only scrab around Allanak. But Allanak currently, like Tuluk you need to know the dangers. Like Tuluk you need to know where to find certain resources. I've played a hidden mage wandering around the allanaki region and got by just fine with no skills. This is actually harder to do around Tuluk, largely because of terrain and no gortok analogue.

I can't comment on Morin's.

[Jingo]

I like the drov beetles around Red Storm, and I honestly don't find them overly threatening. It's not hard to avoid them, it's only when the weather goes bad that they become truly dangerous. I remember having to hide from one and contact someone to come save me, I couldn't get out of a storm and if I walked the wrong way I'd walk right up to the beetle. The only person I could find also couldn't fight a beetle. It was exciting being stuck waiting for rescue.

Again, you haven't encountered the ones that will kill you before you can blink

[Patuk]

Some characters will never be able to fight hard enough.

The incentive for them is to make friends with those PCs that can. Cooperate and work together.

Tuluk's biggest failure was that it was too damn easy to survive outside the walls. A dangerous wilderness encourages people to congregate inside the walls and form connections between themselves. You know, roleplay being a part of a community. Red Storm has something like this at times. If I'm playing a non-combat PC who needs to leave Red Storm, I'm definitely looking to make friends with people who have a chance at surviving a beetle attack.

As a community base, Morin's isn't quite there yet. I wouldn't quite say Morin's has the same problem of Tuluk (it's easy to survive if you stay within a room or two of the gate, but the north is rather more dangerous these days) but it does seem to have trouble retaining a player population. I think part of its problem is that it's hard to build a life for yourself in Morin's. Jobs are limited and lowpaying, and there's no apartments to claim and make a space of your own. These two factors combined with the already low play count encourage Morin-originating PCs to set out for Luir's or beyond at first opportunity.

Morin's has the same problem as Cenyr: a nice place to visit (especially to trade) but not a place I would want to spend most of my time. Which is a shame, since I really like the flavor I get from Morin's.

It's a feature, not a bug.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

[Jingo]

Sounds to me like the same problem as Redstorm has.

I think staff should re-evaluate why we have these outposts. Is it so there are places where only characters with high combat skills can safely visit and hang out? Plus the occasional GMH groups and Byn? Are they just places where hidden magickers can easily isolate themselves themselves from the playerbase?

The question quickly becomes, why would you play in these areas if you are not the above?

[nauta]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

No idea, but it might be useful to draw a distinction:

(a) items that require a bump in staff workload, e.g., understanding loads of houses each with their own histories, NPCs each with their own personalities, complex political relationships, etc.

(b) items that don't, e.g., apartments, outposts with minimal histories, etc.

Now, granted this distinction, even with (b) you could draw a distinction between:

(b.i) items that don't increase staff workload but make interaction kind of strained, e.g., apartments, far-away places, big instakill monsters

(b.ii) items that don't increase staff workload but don't strain interaction.

Blah.  Anyway, I don't know.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

No idea, but it might be useful to draw a distinction:

(a) items that require a bump in staff workload, e.g., understanding loads of houses each with their own histories, NPCs each with their own personalities, complex political relationships, etc.

(b) items that don't, e.g., apartments, outposts with minimal histories, etc.

Now, granted this distinction, even with (b) you could draw a distinction between:

(b.i) items that don't increase staff workload but make interaction kind of strained, e.g., apartments, far-away places, big instakill monsters

(b.ii) items that don't increase staff workload but don't strain interaction.

Blah.  Anyway, I don't know.

I'm not talking about building items or rooms at all.

I'm talking about monitoring and responding to requests from all the players that are now in the independent domain instead of the various clan domains.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, I think the whole premise of this thread is kind of faulty.

If the OOC intent of closing Tuluk was to consolidate the playerbase and decrease staffing obligations...why exactly would they be interested in spreading out the playerbase and increasing staffing obligations by making people want to play in the outposts?

Two* reasons.

1) Variety is good for the game. Allanak is great, I love it, I admire how smoothly it seems to run in terms of reinforcing its own character... but I don't want to play there every. Single. PC. And I just haven't found the coded tribes quite compelling enough to commit to a PC in one of them yet, so I alternate between Nak and the Outposts.

2) Making the Outposts more attractive to play in does not mean taking them up to Tuluk-levels of documentation and Staff Oversight. Tuluk was fundamentally broken: unable to attract players but, because it was Armageddon's second city, requiring a full staffing team. So you have twelve-fifteen PCs with three to five staffers hovering over them. Meanwhile, Allanak has triple that number with the same level of Staff. I believe Tuluk's Staffing inefficiencies were more a consideration for its closure than its player-dispersing effect.

A well-structured setting will run smoothly without needing micromanging from Staff. Red Storm is probably as close to this ideal as any. It has a distinct flavor, it has jobs, it's a viable place to base a character and have them live out their life story... and yet it doesn't require a bunch of sponsored roles and Staff working their butts off making sure it feels alive.

*All other numbers in this post will have been pulled out of my ass.

[BadSkeelz]

Sounds to me like the same problem as Redstorm has.

I think staff should re-evaluate why we have these outposts. Is it so there are places where only characters with high combat skills can safely visit and hang out? Plus the occasional GMH groups and Byn? Are they just places where hidden magickers can easily isolate themselves themselves from the playerbase?

The question quickly becomes, why would you play in these areas if you are not the above?

Because Armageddon is not a game where everyone should be able to do anything they want on their own.

Players should have to work together (and against each other) to survive. Dangerous wilderness areas and hardscrabble nuggets of civilization reinforce the setting and encourage players to play together.

If you're a Character who's just doing you're own thing in your own apartment/cave/tower, you're adding nothing to game if you're not involving other players. Outposts give a place for these Roles to live; the limited nature of the outposts encourage them to take risks; the dangers of the wilderness encourage people to make allies to minimize those risks.

[Jingo]

What game are you playing? Sounds to me like I'd love it. The reality for Armageddon is more or less what I described above.

[BadSkeelz]

What game are you playing? Sounds to me like I'd love it. The reality for Armageddon is more or less what I described above.

I play a game where I try to make as little money from NPCs as possible, spend it as fast as possible, and believe that every time I step outside the walls of civilization I am about to fucking die.

The coded reality of Arm is about how you describe it, Jingo. I just choose not to play to it.

[Jingo]

Last post was dickish, apologies. Nice rhetorical embellishment, jackass.

I'm addressing the way the incentives mold the behavior of players. And I'll contend there is a reason there are nothing but mega-fighters and magickers in certain outposts. Everyone else seems to die or migrate to the cities.

[nauta]

Last post was dickish, apologies.

I'm addressing the way the incentives mold the behavior of players. And I'll contend there is a reason there are nothing but mega-fighters and magickers in certain outposts. Everyone else seems to die or migrate to the cities.

I agree with what you are saying, Jingo.

The outposts don't have very much support for meaningful flavour roles.  You'd usually get incredibly bored from the limited interaction and so store or die due to the megafauna coupled with the insensibility to have not hired the Byn.  And this is why only very (codedly) powerful players hang out in outposts, for very long at least.  Occasionally, a colourful character pops up, and then they are gone.

I'm not sure what the solution is.  

1. Hire the Byn.  This doesn't work if you play offpeak or if you play a concept that is, well, a flavour role, and so broke.

2. No mega fauna / make the route safer.  I think that's what you are advocating.  I'm not sure what the pros and cons of that are.  It certainly would mean that people wouldn't hire the Byn very much, and so it'd be a net loss I think.

I think it might be OK to have the -route- dangerous, but the immediate area around the outpost maybe could be made less dangerous, so then my florist-floutist-painter could thrive, even if I have to wait until peak hours to get from the outpost to civilization.

[Molten Heart]

A stable in the mul outpost would be cool especially if there were some way for only outcasts and other locals to have access (not tourists or other outsiders)

[BadSkeelz]

No harm done, Jingo. I think it helped me make my point well.

1. Hire the Byn.  This doesn't work if you play offpeak or if you play a concept that is, well, a flavour role, and so broke.

2. No mega fauna / make the route safer.  I think that's what you are advocating.  I'm not sure what the pros and cons of that are.  It certainly would mean that people wouldn't hire the Byn very much, and so it'd be a net loss I think.

I think it might be OK to have the -route- dangerous, but the immediate area around the outpost maybe could be made less dangerous, so then my florist-floutist-painter could thrive, even if I have to wait until peak hours to get from the outpost to civilization.

Re: 1) This is why I like how Red Storm has spice sifting (as well as other, arguably broken job cracks). You can acquire enough coins to entice the Byn to come out and get you. With recent changes to Byn roles you may also have better chance of getting an offpeak escort. It does require the Byn to have sufficiently active, skilled, well-known and play-time dispersed characters, though. That could be a lot to ask for. I encourage the Byn to always keep their rumor posts in the outposts up to date with contact information, but in such a high turnover clan that can be hard. Makes me wish there was a "Byn liaison" NPC in the taverns of Storm and Morin's, who you could >discuss with and get names of Sergeants and Mercenaries from.

Re: 2) If you make the route safe, the Byn (and combat PCs in general) lose a lot of their reason for existence. You'll either have less people wanting to play them, or we'll just dedicate our playtimes to raiding the weaklings who've ruined the game for us I guess if you'd rather be rekted by a player than a drov beetle, this might be seen as a positive?

[Dresan]

Let me just remind everyone that indies are huge source of interaction and plots. They are often the very best source of fun, since clans are static and most have already won the game (in cities). All these outposts need is a little more love. All this means is giving players the tools they need to make a life for their character.

The cities and clans will benefit the most from this, since there will be enemies to find, friends to make, and interesting encounters beyond just the gaj. It will make the world a more interesting place when you can go to morins and find a group operating from there.


Honestly the only thing clans actually need is REAL COMPETITION. Not only from each other but from other forces that are not so easily dealt with by crying to the nearest templar. With tuluk gone, whatever GMH resources/staff/estates in left that city should severely crippled if anything remains at all. But I'm getting off topic.

Again the more love outposts are given, the more content indies will be able to create outside (and even inside) Allanak for people to find, interact with and enjoy.

[solera]

Some times I may want to make a hermit/rogue/ explorer etc not interacting with any PC. Which is why I am grateful for those outposts and the experience of a single player style. True, eventually they die or join something.

[Case]

Let me just remind everyone that indies are huge source of interaction and plots. They are often the very best source of fun, since clans are static and most have already won the game (in cities). All these outposts need is a little more love. All this means is giving players the tools they need to make a life for their character.

The cities and clans will benefit the most from this, since there will be enemies to find, friends to make, and interesting encounters beyond just the gaj. It will make the world a more interesting place when you can go to morins and find a group operating from there.


Honestly the only thing clans actually need is REAL COMPETITION. Not only from each other but from other forces that are not so easily dealt with by crying to the nearest templar. With tuluk gone, whatever GMH resources/staff/estates in left that city should severely crippled if anything remains at all. But I'm getting off topic.

Again the more love outposts are given, the more content indies will be able to create outside (and even inside) Allanak for people to find, interact with and enjoy.

You're like the indie propagandist. Saying they're the very best source of fun is pushing it a bit far in my opinion. Indies are great and all, but they shouldn't have it as easy as big clan clannies. Ever. It's like their biggest advantage.

[Dresan]

Please don't misunderstand, I don't want to get into the whole, clan members deserve everything and if you don't join you deserve nothing. Right now clan member get pretty much everything handed to them so long as they are obedient and survive, thats great, I'm okay with that. I've argued for clans in the past too, just that right now I feel outposts need some love.

Let me rephrase that though, indies are often a great source of content, which promotes betrayal, murderer and corruption. This often gives cities and clans stuff to do and deal with while they wait for staff to generate bigger plots for them to tackle.

Indies are often playing:

The Bandits
The Traitors
The Heathens
The Enemies
The Entrepreneurs
The Random Encounters

This is just to name a few things indies often do. However, some of these roles start off in clans before being discovered and driven out, so this isn't just an argument for indies, its more of an arguments to encourage more conflict in the world and its eventual resolution. Its such a loss for everyone, even clan members, when the roles I listed above are stored because their only option is often one place without a bank and has common blinding storms that can force you to tavern sit for undetermined periods of time. We just got a bounty hunter sub-guild right, wouldn't it be nice if people had a reason to stick around so they could be hunted/betrayed or join a strong group and become recurring thorn on someone's side?

One thing I learned from the population having dipped for a while is that you don't need a lot of people to have fun, a handful is enough to generate some really fun plots that can involve many other people. There is no need to squeeze everyone in to the Gaj where you can't really do anything interesting anyways. There is no reason to believe giving these outposts more love will result in anything other than more fun for the entire known and just a more richer experience when playing any character.