The Rise of the Metagame

[Riev]

Now...for my big question....

I don't think metagaming has increased, in fact I see much less open pouch;get coins;close pouch these days.

What's bad about getting your coins from your pouch?  Is this another listening bench moment?

Not specifically. There are/were/can be those that macro taking things out of pockets and packs, because "what if a thief is around I don't want them taking my coin".

Which, because of a delay in the steal function, is not possible when you macro out those commands. They can all be done instantaneously and reduce 'steal' to useless. (It may have gone down, because containers can now be opened by outside parties, reducing the overall fear)

But its a throwback to the days where people would do things because they knew it made them safe. Like the people who stand in a bar, brawling everyone, being an asshole, getting beaten in a brawl and then still running their mouths JUST to entice newbies to type "kill". Its RARE, but it does happen.












[/quote]

[Refugee]

Ahhhhh...
That is pretty lame.

[Dan]

Teamspeak server? Info pls. Nevermind, found it. Sorry to interrupt but I have a sexy voice and wanna talk to you people.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Zenith's post is sad

I like Zenith

Despite the shit fit we're having, we're generally an okay bunch, and nice to newbies.

We're just a reactive bunch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMt55fi7ZQQ

[James de Monet]

There's nothing stopping people from not looking!

Well, there kind of is.  And that is when that info is posted on the GDB in casual conversation, which gives one no forewarning or opportunity to avoid it.  Which is what this thread was about.  But I did appreciate the helpful people letting me know that I was a two-faced, hypocritical, newbie hating, latent shitbird guardian of the ivory veteran privilege tower for saying so. 

[solera]

Maps, I'm happy with a scribbled copy of the world map,that's in the help file. I also need a line showing the Gaj on the west side, and the salt flats on the east side, as I can lose my bearings anytime, without both scribblings in front of me.
Even though maps showing places off the beaten track are out there, I don't  want them anywhere near the official site. Except for tribal docs, of couroe. Does that make  sense?
Same with crafting., I want all but the basics to be learnt in game. I realize that needs vets and staff to be caretakers of recipes that might be lost.  Out of game recipes are abhorrent to me in a game thats lifeblood is interaction and story progression. Then again, I've probably analyzed items new to me, that may have been made from the book.
Mundane Skills and combat...meh...a NWN style manual wouldn't bother me if they front up with a living breathing PC.
My opinions and feelings only.

[boog]

There's nothing stopping people from not looking!

Well, there kind of is.  And that is when that info is posted on the GDB in casual conversation, which gives one no forewarning or opportunity to avoid it.  Which is what this thread was about.  But I did appreciate the helpful people letting me know that I was a two-faced, hypocritical, newbie hating, latent shitbird guardian of the ivory veteran privilege tower for saying so. 

I don't think that about you!

I haven't ever seen any game breaking documentation posted, so I guess my experience is far different than other people's.

I've never really looked at what's out there. Which is why my delves always die.

[Chettaman]

This is how I feel: (first paragraph is long and bla bla)
I feel like I've become a meta gamer. Not because I want to win, but because my characters want to impress. So I meta game... But I roleplay. Hell yeah, do I roleplay. But... I wanna say it was about a month ago when I realized my roleplay really wasn't what it used to be.
I remember I used to be the guy that emoted /every/ time he used the skin command. Oh, yeah... Now I just do one emote and wait five minutes or something and use the skin command five times, pack up and go. - I don't do this when other PCs are with me, but I do it when "no one's" looking and that irks me!\

I feel like... it's very difficult to roleplay a 40 year old mercenary who's been a mercenary for twenty years now... not being able to kill a scrab as easily as the mercenary who's been doing it for a month now. You could chalk it up to difference in talent, I guess.

I also hate it when people are like, "I've mastered the shield. Let's practice something else."
What? - this is the lack of actual training I'm talkin' about. Please roleplay training as more than just combat. Maybe your skills will go up if anyone watching notices. But I have to stand down because I haven't been in a combat clan in forever. If I get byn sargeant, though... you mother fuckers better be ready to roleplay...

[Asmoth]

This is how I feel: (first paragraph is long and bla bla)
I feel like I've become a meta gamer. Not because I want to win, but because my characters want to impress. So I meta game... But I roleplay. Hell yeah, do I roleplay. But... I wanna say it was about a month ago when I realized my roleplay really wasn't what it used to be.
I remember I used to be the guy that emoted /every/ time he used the skin command. Oh, yeah... Now I just do one emote and wait five minutes or something and use the skin command five times, pack up and go. - I don't do this when other PCs are with me, but I do it when "no one's" looking and that irks me!\

I feel like... it's very difficult to roleplay a 40 year old mercenary who's been a mercenary for twenty years now... not being able to kill a scrab as easily as the mercenary who's been doing it for a month now. You could chalk it up to difference in talent, I guess.

I also hate it when people are like, "I've mastered the shield. Let's practice something else."
What? - this is the lack of actual training I'm talkin' about. Please roleplay training as more than just combat. Maybe your skills will go up if anyone watching notices. But I have to stand down because I haven't been in a combat clan in forever. If I get byn sargeant, though... you mother fuckers better be ready to roleplay...

I've always felt that emotes are for the other players.

Meaning that if I'm on ranger #100, I am not going to emote the skin command.

Yes I understand there might be hiding and invisible people, but I won't be trying to get an academy award for solo emoting JUST in case one of them is around.

The only metagamey thing that bothers me is when people use commands like Peek on their mounts and shit to twink it up, so that the players or npcs they it on only get it once they've mastered it off creepily peeking at their war beetle for ten days played.

[Chettaman]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I still find a reasons why I would be doing the things I do, but I haven't done stuff like that yet.
I don't know why I do when I /could/ just peek at my mount, ya know...?

like I was saying, My thief has been a thief for like thirty years now. Doing thief-like things should be natural or something.
But of course, I like to imagine I'm a responsible role player - hence all of my death to people who just went crazy code on me when I expected /them/ to roleplay too.
so after maxing my skills I may not even use them. Or i'll use, say peek, and never steal a thing. Maybe I'll not even notice about the odd things in their inventory. I would use the peek command all the time, sure. But I would take advantage of its benifits whenever on an important mission or something. You know what I mean?
Me? I just expect too much responsibility from people...

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

The only thing I really metagame is trying to get my cooking to master on a merchant, because I always have so many ideas for mastercrafts and cooking is the only thing I get to make a really good mastercraft in for a while if I'm playing indie/don't have a crafting subguild. And being indie, 95% not feeding anyone else, the food simply goes into storage. I was that retard elf who had pockets full of a ridiculous number of dried kalans when that one soldier ordered me to empty my pockets and show him my pack.

[Miradus]

In defense of wanting more game info ...

Some of the new players are new to THIS mud, but not other muds. There's a lot to be said for being able to ease into a new mud when you're leaving one that you're pretty knowledgeable about after years of play. The info I've been able to scarf up here has certainly eased the transition.

[Chettaman]

I'm glad it has eased your transition.
Knowledge is power! I firmly believe this.
But there are people who misuse their power and it breaks my heart. (it also gets my characters killed pretty often)

[hopeandsorrow]

Thoughts and reflections on the Meta-game:

I wonder if it's on the rise, not only due to available knowledge but as well due to fact that players, some of them, are guilty of using meta-game knowledge to simply win. 

No one likes to lose outright, or be placed into unwinnable situations.  Summoning the creativity and passion to write PC after PC with unique and interesting personalities is not only a challenge but can be draining.   There is an attachment on that OOC level, no one likes their efforts being invalidated.

I admit, I've sort of given up on good pc's out the gate.  A bad stat rolls or shitty luck can invalidate that varied and well thought out background with out a moments notice.  Generic is easier to let go and roll anew, hoping for better luck.

An example, couple years ago, I rolled out a ranger/linguist.  He had interesting background, from a family of minor merchants but successful known for trading between RSV and Allanak.  He has a falling out with his father over his love of languages and culture.  PC made it to I think... 20ish hour played? Died in a dumb fashion, I think a storm steered him into a mekillot. Because I was struggling to find work as a linguist (lol thanks psionics) and need to find Scrabs to hunt/salt to greb.

Another later time, I just rolled up exile tribal ranger number #3005645.  That pc went on have to have awesome stats, cool friends, when on terribly stupid hunting ventures, had camp fire stories, and enjoy an interesting life.

I worried about the skill sheet on the Tribal first, salting and grinding through one random insect to the next, so I can make excursions into danger territory and live to ride away.  Personality didn't equate into his character till like ~3days played, even then he was shallow till about 5day ish.   I had to develop the actual solid PC beyond the skill sheet, after I knew the investment was worth it.

[Miradus]

Everyone keeps talking about using the metagame to "win".

In a game like Armageddon, what does "win" mean?

Each character of mine is basically a story unfolding. If it unfolds (or ends) unfavorably for that specific character, that's not necessarily a loss for me. The only character I really regret losing was a fun one with a very specific tribal style that fell off a cliff and died. Just not a very good end for a fun character I wasn't bored of. It hasn't impacted my overall "fun" factor for the mud nor has it altered any of the storylines of all subsequent characters. So while it wasn't a "win" it wasn't a loss either.

[frankjacoby]

Personally if you add mechanics where a water mage can dig up their own food, or mechanics where a firemage can create water, people will metagame.   Personally, my pcs have never had power, will never ever have power, but they sure know how to avoid being killed.

[hopeandsorrow]

Everyone keeps talking about using the metagame to "win".

In a game like Armageddon, what does "win" mean?

Win in subjective, and perhaps not the right word for what everyone is trying to communicate but the closest.

Winning, could mean the successful end of a plot, survival of a fight, how many PK's you get under your belt, how much impact you have on the player base/world.

In terms of coded win, it's perhaps the easier of the two or at least the one with clearly defined parameters to achieve desired results.

The other would be scheming/role playing/generally socializing your way to have a plot come to fruition and leave an impact on the world/pbase.  Which is rightfully considered better form.

A coded win's just easier, more readily abused, and often leaves the 'loser' with a sour feelings.  

A twinked up warrior raids/pk's a bunch of people, causing an uproar creates an impact = Coded win.

PC scheme's/makes contacts/and leaves an impact on the world/player base = non-coded win.

Nothing inherently wrong with a "coded win" but it's considered poor form especially when some bland warrior appears from no where having beat on lizards with a sparring club for 30 days played.

Again this is player subjective.  Some players make PC's with specific win conditions. "Make Sargent" or "Become the best crafter" or "Slaughter Kryl Whole sale." "Start a deadly plot" "Become the Sandlord 2.0"

Other players might make PC's just be an experience, trying to create just characters and take on more reactionary roles with in the world, or motivate pc's to more open ended goals.

It's up to individual players to decide a win condition/lose condition. 

By 'winning' and 'losing' we're trying to describe how pc's reached levels of power/impact and whether or not the player achieves their goals through out their PC's life.

[Asmoth]

You also have to realize that some people enjoy being a griefer.

A player who exists to ruin other players experiences.  I personally have only pk'd a few players and normally in self defense.  I feel horrible about it when I do it because I just took that player they have had for months or years and washed it down the tubes.

But some people enjoy grinding away day in day out to get their warrior ranger magicker whatever to that instakill status.  There really isn't anything wrong with that either.  Honestly my only issue with those players is they make playing the high karma roles harder for the rest of us because you give a player with the ability to grind a warrior to ungodly dangerous levels over a real life year to kill folks the ability to cast one single spell after four days played, and if I was on staff I'd worry.

So the only ill will I'll ever hold towards the griefer type players is that I'll never be allowed to play a sorcerer because of them. Heh.

[Miradus]

Griefers exist in every game. Heck, they exist in the real world too. People who go out of their way to be an ass.

What can you do about it? Not much. I don't spend too much of my time worrying about them. I can be killed by an unexpected bahamet just as fast as I can by a griefer. They're just part of the game.

The vast majority of my interactions in game have been positive. Even the ones that IC-wise weren't so positive. If I get involved in more shennanigans and such then I suppose I'd see more of what you're talking about, but I don't normally. We'll see how it goes over time.

I came from a heavy pk-mud after almost 20 years. Some of what is considered griefing is just considered "tactics" there. Even in an anything goes environment like that, some people found ways to become exceptionally problematic for other players.

[Chettaman]

Does anyone wanna turn this into sword are online or am I the only one?
>: D

[Jihelu]

Does anyone wanna turn this into sword are online or am I the only one?
>: D

I'll kill you I swear to god.

[Jingo]

how would you even

the world of sword art online isn't even comprehensible

just mary sue again and again

[Eurynomos]

This thread has run its course, debate was had, conclusions were reached for some. The Meta Game exists, it is sought by many, it is rejected by some. Play the game, have fun. Murder, Corruption, Betrayal.