The Rise of the Metagame

[hopeandsorrow]

Whenever I want to know something about (for example) the hunter class, I do a search on the forum for hunter and then sort through the bitching and carping for the nuggets of real info.

I have conversed a little with other players in game and received some in-game info, but not a lot. My tendency towards exploration has not led me to a lot of relationships with other characters. I know other players are out where I roam around because I see the crap they leave on the ground but I haven't actually ran into any of them. (Which may be a good thing.)

Yea, so many bits of animals left everywhere... so many bits... some even useful bits.  Sell-able bits.  Good bits.

Also when the Scrab picks up the pile of his cousin's intestines and tries to come at you with it.  A bit me of smiles brighter every time.

[Miradus]

Heh. If it's not bits of animals strewn about, it's hidden caches of stuff. Those I like to find!

There used to be this game chart which showed where you fell on a scale. Explorer, achiever, socializer, etc. I am totally in the explorer category. I love finding new things. The more deadly and remote they are, the happier I am.

This game has literally caused me to shout at my screen, "You may kill me, kryl, but I have added more than a hundred rooms to my map with this character! This is a good death!"

[Riev]

The ONLY trouble I've had with "Find out IC" in my many years of playing has been that in many cases, "Find out IC" isn't a plausible solution, its just "I know but I won't tell".

Not all. But many.

Used to be that even asking how crimcode worked was "go ask your local templar and find out IC". As though I would go ask some corrupt despot what he thinks of what rules he wants to enforce, rather than "If you attack someone, <x> will happen". Finding out IC usually ends in character death, for something a character is in a situation where they may already have such information.




I think part of this thread is dedicated to the fact that its impossible to delineate between what that character would know, what EVERYONE would know, and what should be kept a secret.

[Fujikoma]

Hate to say it Lizzie, but I feel you. What's weird is we've been agreeing a bit over the past couple months, sometimes (most times, though in the past I've silently disagreed with you on many things) I was a silent spectator, but I, for one, am getting tired of the participation trophies desertman mentioned, NO, you do not get one for showing up, in fact, don't show up, you will likely be shamed. NO, don't try to steal one, because no one has been stupid enough to mastercraft one. Just no. Sit your ass down and play, nothing further.

[Fujikoma]

This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp edithat.

EDIT: And,we will, murder you for your trophies, if you manage to mastercraft them,

[RogueGunslinger]

I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

[Lizzie]

I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

I'm not. I'm talking specifics. But the specifics are a general concept, not about a specific person or specific people. The concept: the dumbing-down of the game by giving the information away before people have a chance to try and figure it out for themselves first. The concern: a game will only be as good as its worst player. The easier you make it for the "worst" players to play, the worse the game will eventually be.

Everyone who played Arm before updated docs, ease-of-use help files were improved, before other websites were made, before the request tool, all those people who started playing then, and continued to play for years - all managed to do so. And - they managed to attract dozens of other players who stuck around for years. And plenty of people such as myself managed to come to this game having never played an RPI before, and muddled through, and figured shit out long before anyone ever offered to e-mail us a copy of "the map."

What is wrong with the newer players that you feel they should have answers to things the rest of us had to at least -try- and figure out ourselves? Are they somehow less intelligent? Less creative? What deficiency do they have, that we didn't have, that they would actually stop playing if they can't have the stat lists and location information and skills lists handed to them in advance?

I don't think they have any deficiency. I don't think they should be handed this stuff. I think they should read the docs like the rest of us did, and jump in and start playing, like the rest of us did. And if they can't handle it, then they aren't meant to play this game. Just like others who couldn't handle it before them.

[Riev]

I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

Of course, with new players, comes the inevitable "I'm pretty good at combat now, I think I'm close to mastering the sword" that just sounds jarring. But thats going to happen, regardless, as people start to learn how to RP and fit smoothly in the world.

I don't think metagaming has increased, in fact I see much less open pouch;get coins;close pouch these days, and almost no "tell <x> random random.;hide" to appear mysterious.

I think some people have a desire, in an RPG, to plan out a character. "This is going to be my big brutish guy" or "This one is going to lack self-confidence that only is gained when he defeats them in a Rap Battle". So of course, sometimes you just want the "Alright I need master backstab because I have this cool plan... how do I work on backstab appropriately?"

We could get rid of out-of-game chatter if there were more in-game avenues. Atrium/Byn are great to get people started, but if someone has questions on how to backstab or what its like to be a Krathi... they may have to Solo RP which kills the Find Out IC vibe. Yes?

[BadSkeelz]

<crusty>

I'd rather have the 50-60 people online at peak times who may have been "Handed" some knowledge (and not learn it over AIM which is how real Vets did it) of how the game actually works than the 20-30 people online at peak back in the good ol' days.

[Lizzie]

<crusty>

I'd rather have the 50-60 people online at peak times who may have been "Handed" some knowledge (and not learn it over AIM which is how real Vets did it) of how the game actually works than the 20-30 people online at peak back in the good ol' days.

And I'd rather they earn it, the same way we vets did. Sure we got some of the info outside the game. But by that time we had earned the trust of the people giving it to us. They knew we would understand what to do with it - and what NOT to do with it. Not everyone learned that lesson but it was at least some manner of checks and balances. And, the vets knew who -not- to trust with the information (most of them). There was less likelihood of obvious, blatant powergaming and mixing of ooc concepts with ic roleplay. Such as the example I gave about someone recommending my character use a saw to whittle a twig because it gives the best benefit. They said that in-character. Their player didn't understand that it was a totally inappropriate thing to suggest. They figured - it's coded as the best wood-cutting tool, therefore you should use it on all wooden crafting. That's because someone taught that to them. And someone told that to the person before them. At some point - the "earn your info" was lost.

Also, a few years ago there were usually much more than 20-30 people online at peak.

Also, I'd rather have 20-30 quality RPers to play with, than 50 players of whom less than half are quality RPers.

New players are being taught the code before they're learning the roleplay. I think that's just a backward spiral route to a stock Diku H&S.

[Nergal]

I think some of you may be venting outside the parameters of the thread topic. It's hard to tell because of all the vagueness though.

I'm not. I'm talking specifics. But the specifics are a general concept, not about a specific person or specific people. The concept: the dumbing-down of the game by giving the information away before people have a chance to try and figure it out for themselves first. The concern: a game will only be as good as its worst player. The easier you make it for the "worst" players to play, the worse the game will eventually be.

Everyone who played Arm before updated docs, ease-of-use help files were improved, before other websites were made, before the request tool, all those people who started playing then, and continued to play for years - all managed to do so. And - they managed to attract dozens of other players who stuck around for years. And plenty of people such as myself managed to come to this game having never played an RPI before, and muddled through, and figured shit out long before anyone ever offered to e-mail us a copy of "the map."

What is wrong with the newer players that you feel they should have answers to things the rest of us had to at least -try- and figure out ourselves? Are they somehow less intelligent? Less creative? What deficiency do they have, that we didn't have, that they would actually stop playing if they can't have the stat lists and location information and skills lists handed to them in advance?

I don't think they have any deficiency. I don't think they should be handed this stuff. I think they should read the docs like the rest of us did, and jump in and start playing, like the rest of us did. And if they can't handle it, then they aren't meant to play this game. Just like others who couldn't handle it before them.

While I can understand the sentiment, it somewhat ignores the fact that this game has a sordid history of OOC info-sharing behind it. Many players did not figure it out on their own, as you say they did. They passed each other information over IRC, and then AIM, and then Tinychat, and so on and so forth until where we are today. The fact of the matter is that without those methods of information sharing, many of those players probably would have thrown their hands up in frustration and left the game.

The fact of the matter is many players are quite modest in what they want to know. Something like a guild skill list is relatively modest compared to a room-by-room map of the entire game. However, going to those sources, you often don't get a choice in what you get to see - you get shown everything that a particular person wants to share. For example, there was an old spreadsheet once available for download that had not only maps, but lists of all sorts of things about magick, poisons, etc.

At least if staff provide some information, people can see what they want to see and not feel like they need to seek out more. What staff are primarily concerned with is the spoilage of plot-related information, since it is painfully obvious when players are abusing code or world knowledge - not so much when they are whispering to each other about plots. Which unfortunately is a thing that still happens, even relatively recently.

Ultimately I don't really buy the slippery slope argument. We would have been a H&S a long time ago if that were the case. We're still attracting the same quality of new players at about the same rate as we always have. (And that reminds me that I have to do a Where Survey for January soon.)

[Patuk]

'earn'

ok bro

[Malken]

New players are being taught the code before they're learning the roleplay. I think that's just a backward spiral route to a stock Diku H&S.

Because the code is way too often in the way of being able to roleplay the character you've imagined. They shouldn't have to "earn" anything - nobody quits because crossbow bolts cost too much, but too many have quit and given up because they keep coming across examples like the crossbow bolts and in the end they just get frustrated and leave - these people might have been amazing roleplayers who just didn't have the patience to put up with all the BS we've had to put up with eons ago when the choices of games were extremely limited and this is why many of us decided to put up with it.

I'd rather have newbies have the option to go straight to roleplaying a character they might enjoy rather than keep having to re-write descs and characters over and over and over again until they just give up and leave just because they continually have to bump their head against a wall of frustration.

I'm not sure where the notion of someone who is willing to go through all the BS will in the end make a great roleplayer on Arm - This isn't some sort of trial by fire where only the very few survivors will be gifted the gift of awesome storytelling in the end and the rest are mediocre rejects that were not meant to be part of our community.

[Miradus]

New players are being taught the code before they're learning the roleplay. I think that's just a backward spiral route to a stock Diku H&S.

Alright, let me dispel an assumption being made about new players.

Armageddon is not the only roleplay enforced mud out there. I've spent more than a decade on other roleplay enforced muds which have just as strict of standards of roleplay as this one. I have seen nothing unique here in terms of roleplay. The setting is interesting and so is the code, but the roleplay I've seen thus far is about the same as most other RP muds I've been on. You've got some standouts and you've got some who do poorly at it. And the whole range in between.

Knowing how something works in the game does not in any way impact the quality of the roleplay that's going to be coming from a player. Ignorance of the way the game functions does not diminish someone's capability of crafting an interesting character concept or of playing it out.

So let's get rid of this concept of "if they know how the game works they will suck at roleplay" argument that keeps coming up. It's not accurate.

[Lizzie]

I can't explain what I mean in a cognizant manner, so I'll just give up and not bother trying to explain anymore. Thanks for understanding, Fujikoma. My opinion isn't going to change. It hasn't changed in over a decade of playing.

[evilcabbage]

This is a game for adults, not overgrown children, take your sperg asses to Hellmoo if you cant grasp edithat.

EDIT: And,we will, murder you for your trophies, if you manage to mastercraft them,

why don't you go "grumble" and flame people where it's okay to flame them.

this is not your forum to assume that just because people want something for their accomplishments that you can assail them with lettuce-level insults.

[Synthesis]

I can't explain what I mean in a cognizant manner, so I'll just give up and not bother trying to explain anymore. Thanks for understanding, Fujikoma. My opinion isn't going to change. It hasn't changed in over a decade of playing.

Listen, man...there were no "golden days" where vets fought the good fight, personally grinding it out and gleaning every bit of knowledge piece by miserable piece.

We were all on IRC, AIM, ICQ, Yahoo messenger, etc. etc., blabbing about everything, sharing everything, spreading bugs and exploits, spilling the beans about major plots.

I mean, the old days were probably a million times worse than the game is now.  For realz, y'all.  We were shitbirds.

[Fujikoma]

i am, fuck, just do not...

[Kryos]

I agree with Synth again, more or less.  Both in the behavior and the two facedness about it.  I believe what Nergal's saying has some huge clout in the dialectic as well.  

Since someone brought up the basic Bartle types, and the Explorer specifically(and what Riev is saying), I'd like to touch on the concept that an Explorer is not literally someone who gets a character and goes to make maps of the place.  But someone who likes to walk through the weeds of nearly all facets of game play experience.  Code mechanics, locations, resources, crafting requirements and so on. This makes holding back information a vital way to attract this kind of player and in my belief can be quite the positive thing.  That player may be a E heavy player who is so good at role play it'll make your head spin.  But you shouldn't hold back information that is vital to other styles of play, and the vagaries of some of this information is difficult to process at times.  Find out IC can be wielded this way, at times.   If its about plot, great, find out IC.  If its a genuine mechanics question someone with little to no E enjoyment has, take them aside (with a helper/pms) and dish out everything feasible.

As an(the) RPI I believe Arm should embrace the many styles and manners of enjoyment a diverse player base has with the single exception of:  You have to play a character.  That character could be a nearly infinite number of things, mind you, but you have to role play a character.

Ways to alleviate the feeling of keeping up with the Jones do look like they are being addressed, tidying up docs, opening up on class/area descriptions and some reference material on line, and tweaks to skill behavior as mention earlier.  Censorship of discussion also seems to be opening up:  ala this thread.  Also, I think somewhat in a counter trend to recent dogma:  the glass ceiling is starting to crack, and for my personal play style I can only say thank god.

So, I guess, keep on keeping on?  I am pretty happy with what I'm seeing.

Edit to add for lolz:  Go ahead and blow up that glass ceiling though.

[Fujikoma]

Well. I'll say this, just because you're a killer, doesn't mean you want to be swamped with idiot victims all just OOCly begging for a knife in their back, especially when one was way more than enough... and when I say this, I mean you guys going out of your way for some MCB, chill the fuck out.

[Dresan]

At least if staff provide some information, people can see what they want to see and not feel like they need to seek out more. What staff are primarily concerned with is the spoilage of plot-related information, since it is painfully obvious when players are abusing code or world knowledge - not so much when they are whispering to each other about plots. Which unfortunately is a thing that still happens, even relatively recently.

On this note, one of the things I've seen more often recently is that either something happens in the game or someone is playing in a way someone doesn't like, so they come here and give a large rant about it. They might not give names or specific plot detail here, but you can pretty much deduce what is happening based on their semi-vague arguement. Which in turn causes other people to go to other private means or other forums to ask for those specific details. Besides the fact that it is contributing to the sharing of OOC information it feels like a vague attack on a how a specific person is playing or how a plot is playing out.

I don't know if any solution, or even if anyone thinks this is a problem, but sometimes wish people would just file a complaint and at least wait a little while before making thier rants on the GDB. I suppose I should be happy they bring it here instead of ranting in-game like I've seen some players do too.   

[nauta]

I don't know if any solution, or even if anyone thinks this is a problem, but sometimes wish people would just file a complaint and at least wait a little while before making thier rants on the GDB. I suppose I should be happy they bring it here instead of ranting in-game like I've seen some players do too.   

Vagueposting is against the gdb forum rules.

I do agree that people could get more mileage out of the 'player complaint' tool than they do.  In my view, it is just a process for giving staff the heads up that something -might- be up with the behaviour of a player.  Staff then has it on file (it's like account notes) to check for repeated misbehaviour.

Often, though, I hold my hand in filing them, partly because of the word 'complaint', partly out of laziness, but mostly because I think: well, I don't know the whole situation.

But if you think of player complaints not so much as complaints but ways to help nudge new and old players towards better roleplay, then, maybe we'd use it more.

I also think anonymous complaints might be something to consider.  A quick: Just saw Amos (tall muscular man) ignore the vNPC population here: he took a shit on the tregil queen while all the tregil minions were watching.  Just a heads up.

[Refugee]

Very interesting conversation.  I can see both sides and think that I would like to see more mechanics made clear for players, especially the ones that aren't intuitively obvious, such as some of the crazy branches. 

It's naive to think that people won't find out things in OOC ways, spread information, etc.  This is a problem/concern/fact with all RPIs I've played.  There's no way to stop it.  By refusing to make a lot of it available to all, you're really just rewarding the cheaters.  So I think skill lists, how to codedly do things...those are good things to make available to everyone.  Maybe not the high karma guilds?  Keep the mystery for them.

Having said that, it makes me sad to think of -everything- being available.  Detailed maps, especially.  Maybe because that's one of -my- favorite things to build myself, and it always makes me feel a bit morose when they're just free for the downloading.  Sure I can still go ahead and do my own, but it's just not as good, somehow.

Now...for my big question....

I don't think metagaming has increased, in fact I see much less open pouch;get coins;close pouch these days.

What's bad about getting your coins from your pouch?  Is this another listening bench moment?

[Beethoven]

Refugee, I am actually very glad for the maps that are available. Yes, I am admitting to having looked at them, and no, it doesn't make me happy. I do like the sense of exploration, and I would prefer to discover a lot of things myself. The good thing (or possibly bad thing) is that those maps are so confusing to me that I barely understand what I am looking at anyway.

The reason I look at maps other people have made is that I have absolutely no sense of direction because it is impossible for me to get a grasp on where I am and visualize a map of my surroundings in my head (it was actually a surprise to me when I realized that most people are able to do this!) and those problems definitely carry over IG. In fact, it's even worse because so many rooms are identical. At least the landmarks are really obvious to me. It's also very hard for me to draw a map myself, especially when not all the room links make sense. I could use an auto-mapper in my client, I suppose, but I never quite figured out how to use the advanced functions of my client.

If not for those maps I would probably play exclusively social characters and bar-sitters. To be fair, that is a lot of what I play anyway because of this very issue, but at least I get to try a ranger or something, even if I suck at it. I wish the maps weren't as exhaustive as they are, but there you go. I hope I do not get in trouble for this, but I just wanted to explain why different people may need different amounts and types of OOC information to properly enjoy/play the game.

[Refugee]

Beethoven, I remember that about you!  And you have a very good point.