Witch Loving

[BadSkeelz]

I used to have a bag of magick-detecting jewelry that I made every vaguely suspicious new PC try on but then staff told me to stop it.

#thanksmagickers

[Jave]

Even if magick potential were in 1-2% of the population you'd end up with several thousand mages in the city.

In any case, I've brought it up on our staff boards that more details could stand to be made clear here since there seems to be a large amount of variance in the eyes of the players on what the deal is with the elementalist quarter and mages in Allanak in general.

Hope to have some more clarity for you soon.

[Case]

Even if magick potential were in 1-2% of the population you'd end up with several thousand mages in the city.

In any case, I've brought it up on our staff boards that more details could stand to be made clear here since there seems to be a large amount of variance in the eyes of the players on what the deal is with the elementalist quarter and mages in Allanak in general.

Hope to have some more clarity for you soon.

Yeah. When I played my Templar, it was quoted at like 200 total.



The whole 'Quarter' thing is a silly measure, because if the quarters were literally quarters, Allanak contains 125% area, which I guess is from the power of magick radiating out from spamcasting and bending reality. It's an area of the city. It's bigger than it needs to be for its population - probably because of mundane-flight and its lack of gentrification. It'd be like saying Pripyat is the town of the future.

[seidhr]

You can't really look at Allanak from a what-is-coded perspective and make accurate representations about the size of the quarters, population, etc.  It's just the parts that have been built out and made not virtual.  The Gemmer quarter is (in my mind) a lot smaller than it seems like from a coded perspective.  On the flip side, there are innumerable streets and shops and so forth that are not coded entities, in the main part of the city.  If you were to count the actual streets in the city that are coded, you'd only end up with what.. maybe 20 or 25?  (not counting the Rinth)

[Jave]

Yeah. When I played my Templar, it was quoted at like 200 total.

And even going with this most conservative of conservative estimations .. It would still be metagamey to pick the 5-10 PC gemmed of the game and target them exclusively with pressure to join the CAM 2.0 group you are trying to get started. Give staff a heads up and go after those remaining 195-190 too so the world can react to your efforts.

[Case]

You can't really look at Allanak from a what-is-coded perspective and make accurate representations about the size of the quarters, population, etc.  It's just the parts that have been built out and made not virtual.  The Gemmer quarter is (in my mind) a lot smaller than it seems like from a coded perspective.  On the flip side, there are innumerable streets and shops and so forth that are not coded entities, in the main part of the city.  If you were to count the actual streets in the city that are coded, you'd only end up with what.. maybe 20 or 25?  (not counting the Rinth)

Yeah but like, if there's 200 odd people there and it has streets lined by apartments in places, it has to be bigger than its population

[Saellyn]

For all you know you might get 20-30 npcs who actually support you in secret, and you can break away and try to take over the city. Become the NEW Templars.


And then a dragon will eat you. But it'll be a hell of a fun ride when you get that far.

[Zerero]

I love playing mages, I love their place in the world, and I think the magick code is the absolute bees knees.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, somebody needs to keep those twisted freaks of nature in their place.

I hate playing mages, I hate their place in the world, and I think the magick code is seriously broken.

And I will play the most rabid mage-haters you've ever seen because damn it, mundanes are superior and have every reason to hate magickers. Though, it's smarter to suck up to them and get some fancy rings and get in good with Oash. But for some reason I like playing bad boys. Maybe my parents didn't love me enough as a child?

[whitt]

In any case, I've brought it up on our staff boards that more details could stand to be made clear here since there seems to be a large amount of variance in the eyes of the players on what the deal is with the elementalist quarter and mages in Allanak in general.

Hope to have some more clarity for you soon.

Before it's lost in the scroll #thanksmagickers...

Thanks you, Jave and other staff discussing.

[WarriorPoet]

Who cares? Be hateful to mages or service them all with your mouth. Just don't be suprised if my own characters mock or shun you mercilessly or, if the situation calls for it, defend that gemmer fanatically like he is my mother.

[Delirium]

tl;dr: play your character, but expect and be willing to reflect the realistic IC consequences.

If you're playing a dirty magicker lover, you should be doing so with the full intention of getting horrible pushback from everyone else and strap in for the ride.

If you're playing a witch-hating fanatic, you should be doing so with the full intention of getting into lots of arguments with southerners who have a more "live and let live" attitude.

Or at least be willing to be subtle about it, and don't get pissed off OOC about how awful and unfair everyone is because they don't agree with you.

etc.....

[whitt]

...don't get pissed off OOC about how awful and unfair everyone is because they don't agree with you.

QFT

[Jingo]

I find it to be a sort of moving line.

It's okay to maybe get along with a magicker when we're in one of those kill the witch phases. Its not okay though when everyone else is doing just that.

[BadSkeelz]

How do you know what phase we're in, though? The best you can do is judge off your own (usually limited) perception. You may think you're being the counterbalance but in fact you're the problem.

Better to just play to the docs at all times. And Allanaki mundanes aren't supposed to like or publicly associate with witches in the docs.

[Jingo]

How do you know what phase we're in, though? The best you can do is judge off your own (usually limited) perception. You may think you're being the counterbalance but in fact you're the problem.

Better to just play to the docs at all times. And Allanaki mundanes aren't supposed to like or publicly associate with witches in the docs.

It takes a certain amount of literacy and awareness. Both from the boards and in game. So yeah, it isn't exactly easy.

The docs are not absolute. There is enough room for nuance and exception. Let's be fair, it would be fucking boring if there weren't. And sometimes you just can't help circumstances, forcing you into some strange ic relationships.

Prescription doesn't always (or even usually) match reality.

[SaraD]

I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

[Lizzie]

I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

Except, once again, this isn't dark sun. This is a hybrid of a variety of influences, including dark sun, and combined with its own spin on magicks in general. Allanak has an entire quarter specifically for the gemmed elementalists, which means - the city's chief bottle-washer, Tektolnes, has decreed that these elementalists are to be useful accepted members of the citizenry. No, they don't have to be liked, trusted, or befriended. But they do have to be accepted. Who says? The guy who can destroy the entire city with a "mon un stfu nak" and a wiggle of his fingers.

They ARE useful, whether your character likes it or not. That is what creates the conflict. If they weren't useful, if everyone knew without a doubt that they served no purpose other than subjects of loathing, and the Highlord himself put a ban on them, then they'd be wiped out and there'd be nothing left to hate or fear. Game over, fearmongers win. The conflict is that they ARE useful, and that Tektolnes DOES allow them to exist.  Even in certain tribal communities within the confines of the game, mages are documented as useful members of the tribe. Useful members who maybe can turn you into a toad if you piss them off, but useful nonetheless.

[SaraD]

I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

Except, once again, this isn't dark sun. This is a hybrid of a variety of influences, including dark sun, and combined with its own spin on magicks in general. Allanak has an entire quarter specifically for the gemmed elementalists, which means - the city's chief bottle-washer, Tektolnes, has decreed that these elementalists are to be useful accepted members of the citizenry. No, they don't have to be liked, trusted, or befriended. But they do have to be accepted. Who says? The guy who can destroy the entire city with a "mon un stfu nak" and a wiggle of his fingers.

They ARE useful, whether your character likes it or not. That is what creates the conflict. If they weren't useful, if everyone knew without a doubt that they served no purpose other than subjects of loathing, and the Highlord himself put a ban on them, then they'd be wiped out and there'd be nothing left to hate or fear. Game over, fearmongers win. The conflict is that they ARE useful, and that Tektolnes DOES allow them to exist.  Even in certain tribal communities within the confines of the game, mages are documented as useful members of the tribe. Useful members who maybe can turn you into a toad if you piss them off, but useful nonetheless.

I'm aware that they're useful. I'm just saying that there's a broad range of definition for useful, and that magickers should sit at the 'nuclear reactor flashing lots of red lights' end of the useful-dangerous dynamic. Otherwise you're just playing an Occultist in an IRE mud. Because dark and edgy is cool, but only if you don't actually remind people why the doc's say they should be terrified.

It's not an on-off useful or dangerous thing. But rather something that should be a sliding scale, the more useful the more mindnumbingly horrifingly dangerous. But then again that's just me reading the docs. You're the expert here, so I defer to your experience.

[valeria]

There are people who treat them like that.  Hell, I had a templar who thought that magickers were scary, unpredictable tools that should all be killed for the good of the populace except he couldn't because it would make baby Tek sad.  But just because the Highlord said something doesn't mean that people can't disagree (even when it's better not to disagree with it openly).

In any situation, there are going to be a wide range of human reactions.

Meanwhile, you don't have to defer to experience.  Just because you're new doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have thoughts.    Even if the DS stuff doesn't really apply for the reasons Lizzie said.

[Patuk]

Jesus, Lizzie. SaraD pretty obviously said 'if you want hate to happen, things X and Y would help.' Screaming THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS isn't very helpful or constructive with regards to that. If I were to argue that maybe burglars and pickpockets should get merged together, telling me that can't be done because they're separate is a poor argument, too.

[Lizzie]

No, she didn't suggest anything. Here's what I take issue with (bolded and underlined):

I'm still relatively new to Arm, mostly coming from a DS background here. But I've noticed from some of the comments that there -is- a logical reason for less magicker hate. Your average person isn't legitimately terrified that every witch they meet is a horrifying monster. They should be. That's why people hated magic in DS (the inspiration for ARM's witch hating). It wasn't merely that magic = bad (because yeah, it literally rips the life force from living things to fuel itself). It's that magickers in DS were almost universally evil at best and batshit insane as a rule. In DS elementalists had the raw forces of paraelementals, etc, eroding their sanity and warping them, obsessively consuming them with whatever power their elemental force rises from (and most elemental forces on Athas prefer you dead). Same with pretty much -any- form of magic.

It's not just a "stupid superstitious peasants afraid of something they don't know". It's "people with survival instincts wanting to kill something where the only question is -when- not if, said witch will go omnicidal maniac". If you want to restore witch hate? Witches need to play as real monsters, barely kept leashed even in the short term by the sorc-king, and in the long term an inevitable ticking time bomb. Because fear leads to anger, anger to hate, yadda yadda. Want witch hate? Give people a valid reason to fear them on a broad enough scale with enough certainty and they will. Make magickers 'safe' and 'useful' to know? You'll just get witch lovers.

That's why I posted what I posted. Because - when all is said and done, this isn't Dark Sun, and these aren't Dark Sun mages, and no one here "needs" to do any such thing, and I feel it would be helpful to new players especially, to put that Dark Sun mindset aside and read the Armageddon documentation, and play their characters however they feel their characters would behave, as they interpret the Armageddon documentation. And if you feel someone is behaving contrary to the docs in a way that's harming your enjoyment of the game, send a player complaint.

[SaraD]

I'm getting a feeling you immediately took a dislike to me Lizzie. Sorry if I've somehow offended you in my less than a dozen posts. But no, Patuk had the sum of it. I was just using Darksun as a recognizable but easily interchangable example of -how- magicker hate develops. Because the simple truth of RP muds in general is that if some aspect of roleplay is merely informed in lore, but contradicted in gameplay, general attitudes will keep shifting toward the reality of the situation (in this case, don't fear magickers, make friends with them, because there's no real downside). People need valid reasons for fear and hatred if you want to see fear and hatred. Honestly thieves at this point are far more frequent objects for hate than magickers, simply because their encoded skills make them such. If you want mages to be hated you need them to have valid reasons for being hated.

I'm not retarded Lizzie. I'm aware this isn't Darksun. However it was a major source of inspiration for the game, and hence makes an excellent example when picking a source for random examples. So, if you wanna have some highschool meangirl snarkfest with each other the rest of our time on the boards, feel free. Otherwise why not cut me a little slack and assume that I'm not an idiot? It might help, given every time you've tried to jump down my throat you've been gently brushed aside. It's vaguely irritating to have it happen every time I post.

Edit: in an equally viable method of resolving the dissonance, they could just update the documentation to state that magickers were traditionally hated before Tek's edicts integrated them into society, but society has gradually warmed to them in the time since. I guess which way you go, whether simply acknowledging their IC integration within the lore, or giving them in-game reasons to be universally hated, depends entirely upon how important to the setting the Imms find magick-hate.

[Harmless]

Everybody needs to relax or take it to PMs. (waits to be called passive aggressive)

[BadSkeelz]

Huh, I thought I had already killed this thread.

SaraD, the key to the GDB is to not give a shit about what anyone else says (within politeness).


To respond to your original point, I think if we had more mage PCs flip out at their manifestation and kill a few people every once awhile, PCs would be a lot more leery.

[Chettaman]

I think it's because... we as players don't really understand the connection our characters have to the elements. While I... heh heh... am a genius and figured it out by in game and out of game meditation... I know that others may never come to the same conclusions as I have.
Nor have they read dark sun books. Which I also have yet to do.

They may not know exactly what being connected to the elements entail so they don't know the way(s) to roleplay it to make it actually frightening. Death is also discouraging. So maybe they do play their roles the way they should, but you don't get to see it because if you did, their character would end up dead.