Code Suggestion: Tents big enough for at least one mount.

[hopeandsorrow]

I just wish mounts showed some fucking loyalty ya know?

Pull the fat ass war beetle out every hole in the known, kept the poor beast alive through thick and thin and the first time Yolo the dwarf rolls up... just wanders off with him?

Beetles got no loyalty yo.

[Molten Heart]

You notice: An erdlu squeezes out a sloppy pile of fecal matter.

>leave

>look
A smelly stained desert-camouflaged tent is pitched here.

Smelling better on the outside than on the inside, I'm sure.

[manipura]

It seems like the original intentions behind the idea are to be able to ride your mounts faster and harder and then have them easily regain their stamina to ride faster and harder again.  I didn't get the impression that this big tent was being set up for an extended period of interaction in the wilderness.

I share Bushranger's thoughts from above: traveling in a harsh, dangerous world is already very easy.  
If someone wants their PC to travel alone, it should always be a risk...because traveling the desert alone is ridiculously risky.  As it should be.

And RGS, I get the idea of a portable tent.  For this to be protective against a Zalanthan storm, it would need sides on it.  It would need to be big enough for an inix, which is something like sixteen or seventeen feet long.  Do you really think that a seventeen by seventeen foot (minimum) enclosure would be lightweight?  The type we have in RL that you're using as an example uses materials like thin steel posts and ripstop polyethylene fabric.  The sort of pop-up instant garages that people use for their vehicles.  I don't imagine those are lightweight like a picnic table canopy.  And once it's made with Zalanthan materials (a number of wooden poles and a few lengths of fabric or hides) I can imagine it's even heavier and bulkier.

[RogueGunslinger]

Well, first off it wouldn't need to be big enough for an inix. That is the largest mount we have. I was only using the examples of the canopy because it could easily hold an Inix. It would also not matter how heavy it was. I'm not even sure why the argument is getting down to gritty details. What we're talking about here isn't unrealistic. I just think you should be able to sit in a tent/lean-to/canopy, and not have to be detached from your mount by the same coded distance we use to measure leagues of distance in an outside room. Because that -is- unrealistic. And the "risk" you all are so heavily advocating for really isn't much of a risk to someone with a tent. Oh no, they'll have to walk back to town, how ever will they deal with their loss of stamina. The real risk would be someone attacking your very expensive, big tent and destroying it.

[Asmoth]

I don't ride no inix... I've always thought someone smaller than a mul riding them was sorta silly. But as that guy said, not everyone is trying to cover their inix.

[hopeandsorrow]

I don't ride no inix... I've always thought someone smaller than a mul riding them was sorta silly. But as that guy said, not everyone is trying to cover their inix.

Does this change your mind?

Who wouldn't wanna ride this?

[manipura]

It would also not matter how heavy it was. I'm not even sure why the argument is getting down to gritty details.

The idea was posed that there be tents big enough to contain a mount, so they can regain stamina quickly.  If these tents existed, they would be items that your PC would have with them, yeah?  To set up when they stopped?  Weight matters, because it's presumably something you're carrying with you.  If it's some sort of lean-to that you're making,  weight still matters because you should need the materials to make it and it should be more than a couple poles and a chalton hide.  And in a Zalanthan sandstorm, I don't think something without sides (like a lean-to) would be super effective in protecting from the elements.

[Asmoth]

It would also not matter how heavy it was. I'm not even sure why the argument is getting down to gritty details.

The idea was posed that there be tents big enough to contain a mount, so they can regain stamina quickly.  If these tents existed, they would be items that your PC would have with them, yeah?  To set up when they stopped?  Weight matters, because it's presumably something you're carrying with you.  If it's some sort of lean-to that you're making,  weight still matters because you should need the materials to make it and it should be more than a couple poles and a chalton hide.  And in a Zalanthan sandstorm, I don't think something without sides (like a lean-to) would be super effective in protecting from the elements.

Really no tent would be able to stand up to Zalanthan Sandstorms if you read the descriptions of them and the weather.

But I'm not sure why we are so worried about the hyper realisticness of this now all the sudden.

This is a game with magick, this is a game with mindworms, and this is a game with psychotelepathic bugs for god sakes, do we really need to worry about the physics of every object?  If that's the case we wouldn't have half the desert elf camps, because they would have been blown away.

[RogueGunslinger]

It would also not matter how heavy it was. I'm not even sure why the argument is getting down to gritty details.

The idea was posed that there be tents big enough to contain a mount, so they can regain stamina quickly.  If these tents existed, they would be items that your PC would have with them, yeah?  To set up when they stopped?  Weight matters, because it's presumably something you're carrying with you.  If it's some sort of lean-to that you're making,  weight still matters because you should need the materials to make it and it should be more than a couple poles and a chalton hide.  And in a Zalanthan sandstorm, I don't think something without sides (like a lean-to) would be super effective in protecting from the elements.

But what does that have to do with the idea been good or not? Even if it was so heavy that half-giants had to drag it behind them it would not be pertinent to whether it should or should not be in-game. Details can be tweaked, changed, made better. If you're asking if I think a human could carry around an enclosure that was big enough to fit an inix, then my answer would be yes, absolutely, even considering zalanthan materials like hide and bone. And it would be made even easier by being able to let your big ass Inix carry it around for you.

As for needing sides to protect from elements. There are numerous places in the game that are coded to be better on regeneration because of the shade they provide. Maybe it wouldn't even have to be like our tents that you enter. Just something you prop up that shades the area like a canopy.

[manipura]

Really no tent would be able to stand up to Zalanthan Sandstorms if you read the descriptions of them and the weather.

But I'm not sure why we are so worried about the hyper realisticness of this now all the sudden.

This is a game with magick, this is a game with mindworms, and this is a game with psychotelepathic bugs for god sakes, do we really need to worry about the physics of every object?  If that's the case we wouldn't have half the desert elf camps, because they would have been blown away.

You're right, it's not realistic.  But oh well, realism shouldn't matter, I guess?

We're supposed to be realistically RPing our PCs, as best we can.  Things like not crafting or sparring for two days straight are mentioned when realism pops up...but when someone decides they want something that isn't realistic it becomes "Hey, it's a game with magick and telepathic beings, fuck realism."

I don't think a person carrying around a tent big enough for a mount, plus all the other shit they have with them, is realistic.
I don't think riding across the Known and back in one day, without having to rest your mount or feed and water it is realistic.

But since this is a game with magick and telepathic beings, the next time I head out for a quick zip across the world, I'll bring two weightless beetle-tents and make the trek in ten minutes, because it's infinitely more playable than taking encumbrance and time into account.

Yes we suspend realism in a lot of ways, but I think it makes the game better to consider the realism of things in the world, and especially of changes or additions to the world.  If my PC looks at a weapon in a shop and can't use it because it's too heavy, then it's not a stretch to suggest that the average human shouldn't be walking about with a tent large enough for an inix, as suggested above.

RGS, you think a human can easily be carrying around an inix enclosure, i think that's silly.  Since encumbrance is an actual thing in game, I tend to keep it in mind.  But we'll agree to disagree here then.

And whether or not something is a good idea, in my opinion, is a lot to do with whether it fits the game world, whether it's realistic to the game world.  So when someone proposes an idea and I don't think it adds to the game world, as its suggested, and I don't think it's horribly realistic to the game world, as suggested, then I don't think it's a great idea.

Carry on with the discussion, I'm done arguing details when details apparently don't matter.
I'm going to go dress my elven merchant in horror shell gear to craft non stop for four days, because realism-schmealism. 

[Armaddict]

And whether or not something is a good idea, in my opinion, is a lot to do with whether it fits the game world, whether it's realistic to the game world.  So when someone proposes an idea and I don't think it adds to the game world, as its suggested, and I don't think it's horribly realistic to the game world, as suggested, then I don't think it's a great idea.

This is the place I tend to come from as well.  I just don't see the scenario where someone brings a tent-like structure specifically designed for sheltering mounts in a temporary manner.  If it was a multiple-day encampment, then that's something else.  But I think the tendency would be 'I'm not going out in a storm like this', over 'I will haul around a big tent to share with my mount so that I can keep an eye on it.'

Hitch post, if we could figure it out, would work, maybe.  But the assertion that this is entirely practical comes from a place of 'But I want it' more than anything else, I think.

I think you guys came on a little strong to shoot down the weight thing.  You presented an idea, there were counterpoints as to why it probably didn't or wouldn't exist, and you essentially argued about it for a little bit, then tossed it aside when it became clear that it would indeed be something of concern.  If zalanthan materials that would make it serve the purpose you want would be an issue...then it's an issue, obviously.  I tend to agree that if it were put in, it would be heavy enough that it wouldn't be for single riders...but rather as parts carried on multiple beasts for a larger community tent.

Then again...I still wouldn't even approve of that until we made tents/shelters take time to assemble.  I don't see this as a hindrance to playability or an addition to realism, which makes it one that I feel pretty good about giving the thumbs up to shoot down, in that current state.

The hitch-post has more promise for RGS's issue.  As far as making mounts able to regenerate faster?  That's the issue I think is there on purpose.

[RogueGunslinger]

RGS, you think a human can easily be carrying around an inix enclosure, i think that's silly. 

Who said anything about easy? Tents are already heavy, I'd expect these to be even heavier.

I think you guys came on a little strong to shoot down the weight thing.  You presented an idea, there were counterpoints as to why it probably didn't or wouldn't exist, and you essentially argued about it for a little bit, then tossed it aside when it became clear that it would indeed be something of concern.  If zalanthan materials that would make it serve the purpose you want would be an issue...then it's an issue, obviously.  I tend to agree that if it were put in, it would be heavy enough that it wouldn't be for single riders...but rather as parts carried on multiple beasts for a larger community tent.

The reason why I'm happy to discard the weight thing is because it's focusing on one tiny aspect of the idea (an inix sized tent) instead of the other possibilities, like big enough for just a beetle or lean-to's that only provide shade instead of the full benefit of a tent or a million other ideas.   It has absolutely nothing to do with weight being of concern, because I still don't think it's a concern even when considered. Yes, it would have to be pretty damn heavy for it to hold an inix, but not so heavy a person couldn't wear one on their back, or strap it to a mount.

And whether or not something is a good idea, in my opinion, is a lot to do with whether it fits the game world, whether it's realistic to the game world.  So when someone proposes an idea and I don't think it adds to the game world, as its suggested, and I don't think it's horribly realistic to the game world, as suggested, then I don't think it's a great idea.

This is the place I tend to come from as well.  I just don't see the scenario where someone brings a tent-like structure specifically designed for sheltering mounts in a temporary manner.  If it was a multiple-day encampment, then that's something else.  But I think the tendency would be 'I'm not going out in a storm like this', over 'I will haul around a big tent to share with my mount so that I can keep an eye on it.'

This idea of realism when it come to practicality is a good argument though. I like the hitch-post idea and the shading lean-to idea for these reasons.

What if it was a ranger skill? The better the skill at constructing lean-to's the better it sheltered you from heat and sand.

[Asmoth]

How about just keeping it simple and make a big umbrella that allows you to create shade?

Or is that too hard to do too?

[Fujikoma]

Maybe anyone could construct one, but ranger the most skillfully. I'm not sure which skill it would rely on. Could have a skill roll determine stability of the shelter, and once per tick roll the stability against the weather patterns, if failure, then it collapses, likely smacking everyone for a few damage, irritating everyone, and having to be set up again, as well as increased shelter values for higher skill rolls? What existing skill would it use though, to spread it realisticly? Or maybe could have it use tentmaking just to make merchants valuable in the field.

[Armaddict]

I feel like we'd need a definitive direction for rangers, if there is any, from staff before we speculated on new skills, but if they are made survivalist/hunter vs combatant/military then it would be a damn good fit.

I'm not sure if the OP would consider the hitching post a derail of his thread, though.  I don't think that it would give regeneration bonus, but for your issue, RGS, I think it should be explored to see if the coding is worth it.

[Lizzie]

There are mounts that do regen quicker than others. There are also mounts that don't NEED to regen as quickly, because they have tons of stamina and it takes the entire length of the game world before they're exhausted. If your mount is running out of steam before you can get from point A to point B, then you need to rest it -before- it gets that far. Once stamina drops to a certain point, the time it takes to regen each point goes up. Assess -v your mount regularly - if it appears "tired" then it's time to look for a resting spot. If you wait til it's "very" tired, then you just wore your mount ragged and it *should* take awhile to regen, whether he's in the shade or in a sandstorm. Also, I've noticed some people forget to type WALK after fleeing, to slow their mount back down after they've gotten safely away from whatever was chasing them. No need for a huge tent there - just a need for you to pay attention to what you're doing.

I've had mounts take a long time to regen and I get that it's frustrating but - it was my own fault for riding it into a sandstorm after I already knew the thing was tired, and kept going anyway. What I -should- have done, was abandon the mount and walked to my destination. It made no IC sense to just sit there for almost a RL hour waiting for the mount to regen. It also made no OOC sense. But I just didn't want to let go of the mount and all the STUFF on it. Because all of that, was more important than what makes sense, both ICly and OOCly.

So - in summary - if your mount is SO tired that you need a tent big enough to put him in - then you rode him too hard and now you should RP the consequences of that. Also don't forget you can quit-ooc while mounted or hitched and return to the game with the mount. He'll still be tired, but it's still an option if you need to leave the game.

[JackGibbons]

I think the point that some people are missing is that it makes perfect sense ICly to seek to be stronger, better, faster. To come up with new ways to overcome challenges like exhausted mounts when you're not near natural shade. The hyperbole of "well if you're going to make a tent that you can squeeze a mount into, then let's discuss the inix case and then dismiss the entire category" doesn't seem to be a helpful opinion to me, neither does the "the game is SUPPOSED to be hard, so you're not supposed to try to innovate to make life easier" despite that being a pretty realistic emotion and driving force in general. There are a lot of good counter points, though, like the fact that it will get smelly and dirty being up in there with a mount, and that the newer, larger tents should have higher weight to them.

Probably the best bet here is to talk with someone ICly good with tentmaking, so probably a Kuraci, and see if you can get them to mastercraft something for you. Staff can weigh in on that mastercraft with its feasibility. Of course, there may not be a way to codedly permit the smallest mounts while excluding the larger ones: it may simply be a yes or no "Can mounts go in here?" situation. In which case, it may not be worth the coder time to make a more complex 'mount volume' system.

I'm getting a bit of a 'this game is supposed to be hard and if you change anything that makes it easier you are destroying what makes this game fun' vibe from some of the critiques though, which I think is a bit overboard compared to the actual proposal.

[Lizzie]

Jack I think what you're missing here is this:

You can ride your mount til he's just gone from "winded" to "tired," and look for a place to rest him. Rest him for 10-15 minutes.
Finish your ride, stable your mount, done.

or

You can ride your mount til he's "very tired" or "exhausted," rest him for close to 1/2 hour, if not longer since he's too tired for you to seek a suitable place to rest him and he might now be out in a raging sandstorm. And then finish your ride, stable your mount, done.

With a big tent, you'd not solve anything that consideration for the game world won't solve. All it'll do is let you ride your mount to exhaustion and rest your mount for half the time it would normally take if he was exhausted without a tent. And that issue is already solved by not letting your mount get that tired in the first place.

[JackGibbons]

Jack I think what you're missing here is this:

You can ride your mount til he's just gone from "winded" to "tired," and look for a place to rest him. Rest him for 10-15 minutes.
Finish your ride, stable your mount, done.

or

You can ride your mount til he's "very tired" or "exhausted," rest him for close to 1/2 hour, if not longer since he's too tired for you to seek a suitable place to rest him and he might now be out in a raging sandstorm. And then finish your ride, stable your mount, done.

With a big tent, you'd not solve anything that consideration for the game world won't solve. All it'll do is let you ride your mount to exhaustion and rest your mount for half the time it would normally take if he was exhausted without a tent. And that issue is already solved by not letting your mount get that tired in the first place.

Yeah, that's a useful tip, and as a perpetual newbie I'm going to make use of it. I didn't think about the lower tired levels meaning you ran it so hard it will take longer to recover. Thank you for that. What I'm saying is since shade helps mounts recover faster, it makes sense to seek out shaded areas once you know where they are on your route. Or, to make your own shade. For mundanes, that raises the question of 'can I shade my mount with some portable device'. My point is that this isn't automatically an unreasonable question or goal. Even if there's already some other way to avoid spending a boatload of time waiting for your mount to recover by using your method or by knowing all the shady spots, an intelligent character could still note the effects of shade and think about how they might go about making some themselves. Something three-sided, for example, could provide a shaded spot for a nestled down ('rest' state) mount that, also turned towards the wind (this would be assumed virtually) would also provide some protection against weather-based penalties to recovery. My point is that people assuming this means "lol absurdly unrealistic inix thunderdome" are engaging in a straw man. Then I suggested that since this is a legitimate thing for an IC character to think about, that their best pursuit avenue might be to find an IC master-craft-capable tentmaker, who can then work with staff on whether some sort of device could be made and what weight and cost to assign it. It should be realistically weighted. The MC tentmaker can communicate a stones estimate to the customer, and they can decide if it's worth it. If people can figure out a way to make it work (pack inix for tent gear that doesn't get as tired as it has no other load, riding beetle that rests in the shade), more power to them. Finally, I concluded with some remarks about why it might not be possible to code it, since it may have to be an 'enter'able room, and while realistically you could very much make, say, a tent a shaggy ox can get in (it doesn't take up more room than the 2-3 people who can already get into a regular tent, right?), there may not be a way to prevent certain size mounts from entering (since that same tent could very much not hold an inix), because the code for 'can a mount go into this room?' may be simple yes/no instead of 'well what size is the mount?'.

The method you explained is muuuuuch simpler, so it would behoove people to just try that if they don't want to go through all the rigmarole of the MC process just to quite possibly hear "not feasible." But if they do, "good luck to them! Enjoy the RP" is my point, instead of "you must be an idiot for thinking anything like this could possibly work because obviously you meant the most absurd case version I can think of" which is the attitude I was gleaning (perhaps incorrectly) from a number of responses here.

[valeria]

Have you guys never carried around one of those big-ass canopies to the beach? They are not that heavy, they are huge.

They are also not made from bone, leather cords, and natural fibers.

I'm not necessarily 100% opposed to having a giant tent you can build over your inix.  But unless they're heavy, expensive, and take a lot more time to put up than "make tent," I would be opposed.

[Asmoth]

I still maintain we should at the very least have a way to make a room shaded code wise.

I mean an umbrella or parasol is already in the game, why not just a grander scale??

[Fujikoma]

I still maintain we should at the very least have a way to make a room shaded code wise.

I mean an umbrella or parasol is already in the game, why not just a grander scale??

Magick.

[Lizzie]

I still maintain we should at the very least have a way to make a room shaded code wise.

I mean an umbrella or parasol is already in the game, why not just a grander scale??

There is a way to make a room shaded code-wise. It involves risking your soul, or your virility, or your children, or [insert myth/legend/tall tale/rumor here].

Once again - reward and risk. These things are already possible. You just have to decide whether or not to choose to make use of them.

[Asanadas]

Oh boy I sure wish that there were mundane means to capture fractions of magickal utility. E.g. a lean-to.

[Malken]

Oh boy I sure wish that there were mundane means to capture fractions of magickal utility. E.g. a lean-to.

Remember that elves are still too idiotic to realize the potential that riding would offer their culture.

A portable shade-making device?

DON'T BE CRAZY SON