Elves and Nobles

[Dakota]

Hot damn I wish I lurked on these forums more... I'd unload on this thread.

In terms of the OP...

Highlord + Noble = a lot more coin / favor / expansion to fleece (con) from than some punk-ass commoner.

Anything else that comes along with that is simply a facilitator/enabler to that con... Nothing more.

A well played elf, even when in the gutter, is still better than everyone else. This is known.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I feel like I play an okay elf but not necessarily a good one. I think I am still scarred from the last time I was visited in jail.

I doubt an elf would work with the templarate--- they persecute so many of their kind and their family and are a symbol to them of human oppression. I've seen a tribeless elf work with the Arm before as a spy but I would think elvish pride would get in the way of most elves.

[Armaddict]

Sometimes it's just good business.  Business doesn't require much trust on either side.

[fourTwenty]

Sometimes it's just good business.  Business doesn't require much trust on either side.

You've never hired a hooker have you.

I approach dealing with elves like  I approach dealing with a call girl. You're going to have to trust each other. But make sure all you're valuables are somewhere the hell else.

[Armaddict]

No...no, I have not ever hired a hooker.

Let me rephrase:  Elves are incredibly opportunistic.  If they can pull off something, they will.  If they think they can, they will try.  There isn't a limiting factor on where those opportunities can lie unless they've been personally wronged or found something out that makes it against their personal interest.  There is no communal blacklist across tribes, they only exist within single ones.  Since there are no PC tribes...you can take it as a rule that if you get a good business offer from a templar or do-gooder, and it benefits you, the elf?  You are well in your scope to do it, because benefit.

Trying to say that elves would ignore an incredibly real source of power and income based off of the same distrust (i.e. They will fuck you over in a second) they have for everyone outside of their tribe is kind of pushing too hard for elves to adapt a modern criminal mentality, and limiting their love for working people over in whatever way they can, as well as the corruption of the game world.

[Patuk]

You show me a (PC) templar who gives an elf even a slight chance at anything, and I'll show you a corpse. We'll see who runs out of examples first.

[Dakota]

No...no, I have not ever hired a hooker.

Let me rephrase:  Elves are incredibly opportunistic...you can take it as a rule that if you get a good business offer from a templar or do-gooder, and it benefits you... You are well in your scope to do it, because benefit.

Trying to say that elves would ignore an incredibly real source of power and income based off of the same distrust (i.e. They will fuck you over in a second) they have for everyone outside of their tribe is kind of pushing too hard for elves to adapt a modern criminal mentality, and limiting their love for working people over in whatever way they can, as well as the corruption of the game world.

Elves have the biggest RP advantage over all other races because they, in essence, can skirt over things like politics / ranks / positions of power and other posturing that happens outside of their tribe. Sure they can (if they choose) to dabble and dance in that game, but in the end, it's all about the fuckary.

An elf who is savvy, focused on the task at hand, operates with finesse, actually plays as an elf and is a bit lucky, can outwit, outmove and outdeal anyone because the boundaries of business for the elf aren't polluted by boundaries of law or politics beyond the tribe. This is even more fluid, agile and open than the realms of operation from the Big Merchant Houses...

In fact, it's not about your elf thinking...

ELF: "Do I want to get involved with this Templar?"...

It's more of your Elf creating a situation where a Templar/Noble is tempted by reputation/action/example in thinking...

TEMPLAR: "Do I want to get involved with this Nekker?"

Once that happens, the Elf is at the advantage. Because they will contact the Elf. They will posture according to -their- rank and politics and rules... They have too.

But the Elf won't, for he has no rules save for that of his tribes. The Elf can stick and move, dance and flick his tongue. The person who called the meeting with the Elf will want something, despite being in a 'position' of greater power... But remember... Once that meeting is called, the ELF is in the position of power because he has something the Templar/Noble wants. That's the MF'ing Ace. The Kruth Trump. And the hard part is getting your elf to that point... The HARDEST part following that, is playing that situation to your advantage where you end up on top, in greater profit, not in anyones pocket and have them and others lusting for more...

If you do it right, it'll happen.

Regardless of House.
Regardless of City.
Regardless of Race.
Regardless of Rank.

Believe me.

I know.

Sun Tzu was an elf. Shit be known.

You show me a (PC) templar who gives an elf even a slight chance at anything, and I'll show you a corpse. We'll see who runs out of examples first.

In 6 months I'll be glad to blow statements like this out of the water... With a slew of examples and the only corpses to be found that of empty and spent coin purses, chests and trunks.

If an elf (or tribe) reputation to provide a service or taste of profit spreads enough, everyone will come out of the woodwork, sands, palaces and gutters to get in on the action... And if you play it right, it will be on the elf's terms and in the elf's benefit AND the other party/s won't ever truely realise until it's way too late and they're in too deep to stop or cut out.

A c-elf is hard mode. More than any other race / role save for perhaps a Mul (Breeds should be harder but they get to cheat and can join clans and houses). But that makes the spoils that much sweeter and makes good roleplay that more attractive for people to get involved in.

In fact, c-elves are probably the most Armageddon race you can play if you're in the game for corruption, deals, steals, skull duggery and hot mudsex with long-eared, rail-thin, heroin-chic figures.

[Jingo]

Elves occupy some sort of limbo realm in Armageddon. There's always that one PC that's just a complete trooper and plays it as best they can.

But for every one of them, there's a dozen elves that get nowhere because they'll never be useful to anybody. And coupled with all the player head canon excusing how badly they treat elves, tends to make them get them get killed off for petty reasons.

For the record, I'm done playing elves. I'm so over getting killed for shitty reasons.

[Incognito]

Now I had a question about how the elves would view Nobles and the Highlord as well as templerate. I've read a few articles but wanted to get player opinions and bring the subject back up. Thanks in advance for the Feedback!

This is a great discussion point actually!

If you were a c-elf in Tuluk, it'd be a different view, specially if you were a Sjir elf.
If you were a c-elf in Allanak, it'd be yet a different view, specially if you were a rinther.
If you were a c-elf from anywhere else, it'd be yet a different view.
If you were a d-elf, it'd be an entirely different ball game.

In Tuluk, Sjir elves were actually cooperative with nobles and templars. The "enmity and hatred" against the nobles and templars was quite toned down, as compared to Allanak. And to some extent, the reverse was also true, northern nobles and templars "tolerated" Sjir elves much more than their Allanaki counterparts.

In Allanak, a typical rinthi c-elf will always believe that the nobles and templars do not have an iota of goodwill towards their race, and will always try to behave in a manner that is defensive (read: self-preservative). As for the nobles and templars, they will hold true to their perception, simply because the elves of the rinth have never given them cause or reason enough to think otherwise.

For c-elves from other locations, and d-elves as well, the nobles and templars would possibly appear as people to be avoided altogether, so as to remain under their radar.

Of course there are exceptions, when a c-elf and a noble, or a templar reach an agreement of sorts, to exchange goods or information - but those are usually temporary in nature, and riddled with suspicion on both sides.

No matter how rich, powerful, useful or honest a c-elf might appear to be, a templar or a noble will never have any qualms in killing the c-elf.

The status of rinthi elves in Nak especially is extremely low. I might go out on a limb and say that a noble or templar might hold his/her mount in higher esteem than a rinthi elf.

[wizturbo]

You show me a (PC) templar who gives an elf even a slight chance at anything, and I'll show you a corpse. We'll see who runs out of examples first.

I've seen it countless times.  I just don't see them put their arm around the elf publicly and say, "Elf, you're such a good fella!  Want to have a drink together?".

Elf-Templar interactions happen in back rooms, over the Way, or in jail.  But they happen, and they don't always end in corpses.

[CodeMaster]

...

Cue Wayne and Garth after Alice Cooper's history lesson

[Dakota]

...

Cue Wayne and Garth after Alice Cooper's history lesson

...In Tuluk, Sjir elves were actually cooperative with nobles and templars...

Sjir elves (while I did like a few of the more well-played, interesting ones), as a whole were a weird fit and a total paradox. The fact they were supposed to be so high regarded in their masonry skills and doing visible public works... were accepted by nobles / templars... and yet were this Warren-based tribe feinting to be shady, cut-throat elves on rooftops controlling illicit activities in the ghetto, meant they played opposite roles on both ends of the spectrum.

This led to really weird RP situations that wasn't the fault of the players but the tribes itself... If I'm a noble, do I hire these elves to carve a statue I want or do I tell these pimps, assassins and slumlords to "piss off back into the warrens."? Like what role are they really playing?

And if I'm a general criminal or an indie elf... Do I -really- want to get involved with a tribe that is so visibly close to the Templars / Nobles / public works?

A good tribe / house / clan / city / character at the core should result from a very simple concept. The Sjir are (were?) 2 or 3 concepts crammed into one tribe.

On that note, regardless of c-elf, d-elf or location, the general elven mindset wouldn't really change. Tribe first. Blood first. Always. Everything else and outside of that, is second-rate, inferior and at best is an opportunity to highlight the gap between said inferior and your superior self / tribe.

Elves don't work for a Templar or a Noble. They don't work with a Templar or a Noble. They CONvince a Templar or Noble or work -for- them...

[Armaddict]

They don't work with a Templar or a Noble. They CONvince a Templar or Noble or work -for- them...

Those two are usually intertwined.  Exchanges of favors are how this is often done.  Particularly when the favors for a templar still work in your benefit, but were not priorities until said templar or noble provided actual incentive.

"So if I do this thing that helps me, you will do that thing I can't do, which helps me.  Done deal.  Always a pleasure working with you, Lord Templar.  Come again next time you need something shady done, I might be able to do it, out of the -goodness- of my heart."

They are political creatures.  Intelligent, conniving, and cutthroat.  What they lose in physical prowess, they make up for in their culture's acceptance of shadiness and double-crossing; they're the trademarks of a powerful elf.

[wizturbo]

... double-crossing; they're the trademarks of a powerful elf.

I don't know about the double-crossing part.  An elf has just as much to gain as anyone else from having a reputation for following their end of a bargain.  And just as much to lose if they don't.

I think the key difference is an elf is much more likely to accept shady deals in the first place, or know how to go about carrying out those shady enterprises.  

That's not to say there isn't a racial stereotype towards elves being double-crossing bastards, but that doesn't mean a well played elf necessarily needs live up to those stereotypes.

[BadSkeelz]

I believe there is some retarded line in the elf docs that say they're always looking for a bigger score or challenge as part of their "culture of theft". Reneging on a deal or a double cross would be a kind of theft. Personally I think it's a rather stupid concept because of how self-destructive it is. Makes me wonder how elves survived in the cities at all.

[wizturbo]

I believe there is some retarded line in the elf docs that say they're always looking for a bigger score or challenge as part of their "culture of theft". Reneging on a deal or a double cross would be a kind of theft. Personally I think it's a rather stupid concept because of how self-destructive it is. Makes me wonder how elves survived in the cities at all.

It all comes down to interpretation of what that means.  Making a deal and following it exactly as agreed, but being clever on how that agreement was originally worded and taking advantage of some technicality seems much more elven to me than just reneging on a deal.

For whatever reason, I always envision the Pikers from that movie Snatch as a good analogy for Zalanthian elves.  They're shady as fuck, most of the deals you make with them tend to go their way, they're hesitant to actually agree to any specific terms of a deal, and if you try to cheat them they'll cheat you back twice as hard.

[BadSkeelz]

They are a good analogy... though part of what allows them to cheat you back twice as hard is their ability to disappear and escape retribution. A good analogy for Rinthi elves, less so proper City ones.

[wizturbo]

They are a good analogy... though part of what allows them to cheat you back twice as hard is their ability to disappear and escape retribution. A good analogy for Rinthi elves, less so proper City ones.

It isn't exactly clear what a proper city elf is.  Probably why they're so rare compared to 'rinthi or tribal elves.  Also because playing an elf is obviously meant for players who enjoy being at a huge disadvantage.   A character that cannot travel anywhere without a lot of effort, cannot join most clans, and is physically frail?  That's hard mode for ya, in a game that's already pretty hard mode to begin with.

[Dar]

I've been contemplating on returning to the game for 3 months now. Couldnt decide on what character to go. But this thread did it for me.

My Akai Sjir dealer actually cussed out Faithful in his thoughts every time he interactived with them. How the hell did he survive, I still dont know.

It's silly to think that a celf wouldnt want to use a Templar. Would a Delf choose not to use a sandstorm to outmanuever his opponents? Would a Delf not lure an invading army who are going to wipe out his tribe to a bunch of wezer domes and then stir them all up?  It's all the same. Templars are dangerous. But Templars can be useful.

[hyzhenhok]

I believe there is some retarded line in the elf docs that say they're always looking for a bigger score or challenge as part of their "culture of theft". Reneging on a deal or a double cross would be a kind of theft. Personally I think it's a rather stupid concept because of how self-destructive it is. Makes me wonder how elves survived in the cities at all.

Some elves might be inclined to follow through with the deal so they can score an even bigger take down the road. Different elves will have different preferences and patience when it comes to weighing the score at their fingertips versus a bigger one down the road. There are plenty of nuances like that, where it's perfectly conceivable that there might be wildly different ways to roleplay a scenario with elves that are all perfectly in line with the documentation.

In a way, I think this thread kind of got started on a false premise. Elves aren't all going to have the same attitude towards nobles and templars. Not even all city elves or all rinthi elves are going to have the same attitudes. The docs are not a straitjacket, and no race is a monolith.

[Armaddict]

In a way, I think this thread kind of got started on a false premise. Elves aren't all going to have the same attitude towards nobles and templars. Not even all city elves or all rinthi elves are going to have the same attitudes. The docs are not a straitjacket, and no race is a monolith.

Pretty much.  I enjoyed jumping in on it because some people like trying to enforce ideas like this pretty hard, as if the entire labyrinth (and everyone in it) is part of one big mafia with some unspoken loyalty to each other.  It's weird.  I imagine that such is why this thread even arose, was to clarify that.