Elves and Nobles

[Sinister]

Now I had a question about how the elves would view Nobles and the Highlord as well as templerate. I've read a few articles but wanted to get player opinions and bring the subject back up. Thanks in advance for the Feedback!

[555]

I, personally, would assume they're quite rightfully afraid of them, but at the same time would likely view the highborn the way they're viewed by them, with suspicion, an inconvenient fact of life that's not really going anywhere, but can and should be screwed over at the earliest available opportunity. Note this will not likely always be the case.

[Patuk]

Oh, boy. This thread has so much potential to get contentious.

First things first - the documentation is fairly clear on elves viewing everyone not in their tribe with a kind of 'screw them' attitude. They are smart enough to make intellectual distinctions between groups X and Y, but anyone not part of their tribe, whatever that might entail, is someone they simply don't care about on a moral level. They aren't people any more than scrab and mekillot are: both are either threats or potential opportunity to an elf, depending on the circumstance.

As for the nobility and the templarate in specific..

The templarate is easiest. Elves are going to really, really fucking hate the templarate, no exceptions. Corrupt as they are, there is nothing good an elf will ever see a templar do. The few things they have going for them - dealing with magickers and threats to Allanak's safety - are things elves generally won't get to deal with very often, if ever. Templars also are the people who routinely capture and execute innocents, publicly torture their siblings and parents, run a militia that's wildly uninterested in actually stopping crime and does much more harm to elves in general than good, and generally won't do anything to benefit an elf, ever. I'm of the mind that any average Allanaki commoner in general will hate the templarate, and this goes doubly so for elves.

The nobility doesn't spend quite so much of its time being actually oppressive, but that doesn't have to mean so much. Given that elves don't care for nobles at all, as they're not part of what they'd call tribes, they're just going to think of them as particularly wealthy roundears that are essentially the holy grail of fleecing opportunities. Given their pride and culture, I doubt elves would view nobles as inherently better than them, though they certainly are clever enough to put up the right appearance.

[Inks]

I agree with Patuk's views here, well put.

[Zerero]

agree with Patuk

[555]

I can imagine a scenario where an elf MIGHT work with the templarate, it would have to be to avenge a slight against something they perceived to be a greater evil, I would assume, to be called off the moment the aim is achieved.

[RogueGunslinger]

An elf would absolutely work with the templarate, but everything Patuk said still stands.

[Jingo]

Depends on the elf/tribe. There isn't any explicit reason why they wouldn't ever work for or near the templarate. It's kind of just the default configuration we have in which elves are always unrepentant criminals.

[Delirium]

Unrepentant criminals and templars should get along great... with the proper bribes and respect shown.

[Sinister]

Thanks again all. Definitely gave me something to RP with and thank you Patuk for the detailed answer. Definitely gives me a better picture of how to run a elf.

[Dresan]

I have yet to see an instance where a bribe has worked but thats another thread.

[RogueGunslinger]

The problem is you're trying to bribe after the fact, when the Templar already owns your ass. Give the bribes before you get caught.

[555]

The problem is you're trying to bribe after the fact, when the Templar already owns your ass. Give the bribes before you get caught.

^This.

[Patuk]

Elves can work together with templars, sure,  just as the Guild could, or a foreigner might. They just wouldn't like it very much.

[hyzhenhok]

Elves can work together with templars, sure,  just as the Guild could, or a foreigner might. They just wouldn't like it very much.

I would point to the bit in the elven roleplay help files that point out that elves are highly distrustful of outsiders, except those who have been tested (and testing is reserved for potential companions--so it's probably very rare that an elf would even think to test a templar). So I would go a bit further and say the elven mindset limits the extent to which a working relationship with a templar can go compared to other undesirables. A rinthi or a foreigner's biggest obstacle in dealing with templars are the templars' prejudice, but an elf has to grapple with his own prejudice as well. No matter how regular or routine their interaction with a templar is, an elf would keep their suspicion at the front of their mind where it would likely fade for others.

[Delirium]

You don't have to trust someone to work with them. Just the opposite, in fact... keep your enemies close, and all.

[Dresan]

The problem is you're trying to bribe after the fact, when the Templar already owns your ass. Give the bribes before you get caught.

The problem is you are assuming something, and its wrong.

I've seen bribes before and after, even to the tune of 40,000 sid once and its pretty futile. It is hard to buy a person gifts when they have have either everything, or just have no real need of it.

Again though I think its another thread more focused on the irrelevance of coins.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, I should have said "The problem generally is".

[wizturbo]

I've seen bribes before and after, even to the tune of 40,000 sid once and its pretty futile. It is hard to buy a person gifts when they have have either everything, or just have no real need of it.

Again though I think its another thread more focused on the irrelevance of coins.

In my experiences bribes work very, very well.   Sure, they might not have clothes or weapons or whatever they need anymore, but for 40,000 sid you can buy all kinds of virtual shit.  I promise you, there isn't a Blue Robed in the Known that won't consider doing something for the lowest, stinkiest, elf for that kind of money.   I'm guessing many noble's would consider it too, as long as no one ever found out about it.

Of course, if your elf happens to be a known sorcerer or something, there are some things that even money can't buy.

Here's a bribing pro-tip though, if you already have a bad relationship with the person you want to bribe, they might not be willing to work with you under any circumstances.  That doesn't mean its too late.  It just means you need to get an intermediary to help.  Nobles make -excellent- middlemen for all kinds of illicit deals.  The only thing the nobility has more of than money is political clout.  If you can't make something happen with 40,000 coin, I promise you a noble can.

[Saellyn]

Virtual shit to include paying Salarr for all the weapons and armor they supply the Arm with.

[Brokkr]

I assume you mean city elves?  Remember, city elves are adapted to life in the city.  A city elf knows how to survive templars, nobles and the law like their desert kin know how to survive anakore, dujat and gith.  Neither has figured out how to survive the Gaj.

Another thing to keep in mind is that elves are not a small minority, and are actually typically vastly under represented in the PC population.  In terms of the free population, there are nearly as many free elves as there are free humans in the city of Allanak, and other than in the Rinth, there isn't an obvious elven ghetto they are living and doing business in, like the Tuluk of yore had.

[nauta]

Another thing to keep in mind is that elves are not a small minority, and are actually typically vastly under represented in the PC population.  In terms of the free population, there are nearly as many free elves as there are free humans in the city of Allanak, and other than in the Rinth, there isn't an obvious elven ghetto they are living and doing business in, like the Tuluk of yore had.

This picture of the domestic (non-rinther) city elf in Allanak (which indeed is sorely under-represented in the PC population) reminds me of a question, related to the topic, I've always wondered:

Do city elves actually revere Tek in the way that (at least some, maybe many) Allanaki human citizens do?  Or is it all put on and show?

If this is too de-railly, feel free to chop it and put it in its own thread.

(I also thought Patuk's answers were great.  I've always wondered the same thing.)

[Patuk]

The documentation is really, really scarce on spirituality in general, and even the highlord worship is more something people seem to have been adding in for the past year or so than something especially integral to the setting and whatnot. My guess is that if elves worship the Highlord, they will do so in a way that shows him more as a Dragon and an immortal scary thing than as a human dude who got big. To use a (shoddy) analogy, protestants worship Jesus Christ just fine, even if that man himself was a jew; certainly there are still such people around, but those jews are in the wrong and worship god in the misguided way and they are not part of our own group. There are also Catholics and Orthodox people around claiming their view on who Jesus Christ was is correct, but they are wrong as well, the way we're doing it is best.

Another reason I picked the protestant analogy is because worshipping Tek whilst hating the templarate(which any poor Allanaki will) requires some way to dissociate the two. Early(and some later) protestants are the sorts of people who really cared nothing for a church hierarchy, but were/are no less serious about their Christian faith in general.

Oh, and I'm still just a player with an opinion, but steer disagreement away from the christianity thing, please. We have an OOC forum for that 

[Armaddict]

The eastside of the labyrinth, historically speaking, has often had good 'working relations' with the templarate.  There is no trust on either side.  Elves go to where profit is.  Elves go where the power is.  They go where their interests are.  An outsider is an outsider.  There is little reason for an elf to distrust a templar more than any other outsider; the assumption is that no matter who the outsider is, they want you either dead or to profit off of you, so your work is on making sure you always get what you want out of the deal even if you're allowing yourself to be manipulated.

Elves are very political creatures.  They shift and change as they and their tribe need.  The only 'line' for an elf to not cross is the loyalty to family.  Other than that?  All avenues are possible, and the dangerous elves are the ones who know they are distrusted, but know how to make the deals happen anyway.

Edited to add:  Just to be clear...nobles and templars who have a known history of fucking over elves...they're messing with a pretty big fire.  That is one of those things that can make normally unaffiliated tribes of elves join together in a 'fuck that guy'.  That's just how it works.

[Jingo]

The documentation is really, really scarce on spirituality in general, and even the highlord worship is more something people seem to have been adding in for the past year or so than something especially integral to the setting and whatnot. My guess is that if elves worship the Highlord, they will do so in a way that shows him more as a Dragon and an immortal scary thing than as a human dude who got big. To use a (shoddy) analogy, protestants worship Jesus Christ just fine, even if that man himself was a jew; certainly there are still such people around, but those jews are in the wrong and worship god in the misguided way and they are not part of our own group. There are also Catholics and Orthodox people around claiming their view on who Jesus Christ was is correct, but they are wrong as well, the way we're doing it is best.

Another reason I picked the protestant analogy is because worshipping Tek whilst hating the templarate(which any poor Allanaki will) requires some way to dissociate the two. Early(and some later) protestants are the sorts of people who really cared nothing for a church hierarchy, but were/are no less serious about their Christian faith in general.

Oh, and I'm still just a player with an opinion, but steer disagreement away from the christianity thing, please. We have an OOC forum for that 

I'm a big fan of the Durkheimian view. The totem raised by the society doesn't just represent the divinity. It represents the society as a whole. So in fact when Allanaki's are worshipping the Dragon, they are worshipping the city society they are a part of.

I don't think elves would worship the outside society in the same way. They might adopt imagery of the Dragon for whatever reason, but I think it's unlikey they worship whatever the god of the outside group is.

[Dakota]

Hot damn I wish I lurked on these forums more... I'd unload on this thread.

In terms of the OP...

Highlord + Noble = a lot more coin / favor / expansion to fleece (con) from than some punk-ass commoner.

Anything else that comes along with that is simply a facilitator/enabler to that con... Nothing more.

A well played elf, even when in the gutter, is still better than everyone else. This is known.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I feel like I play an okay elf but not necessarily a good one. I think I am still scarred from the last time I was visited in jail.

I doubt an elf would work with the templarate--- they persecute so many of their kind and their family and are a symbol to them of human oppression. I've seen a tribeless elf work with the Arm before as a spy but I would think elvish pride would get in the way of most elves.

[Armaddict]

Sometimes it's just good business.  Business doesn't require much trust on either side.

[fourTwenty]

Sometimes it's just good business.  Business doesn't require much trust on either side.

You've never hired a hooker have you.

I approach dealing with elves like  I approach dealing with a call girl. You're going to have to trust each other. But make sure all you're valuables are somewhere the hell else.

[Armaddict]

No...no, I have not ever hired a hooker.

Let me rephrase:  Elves are incredibly opportunistic.  If they can pull off something, they will.  If they think they can, they will try.  There isn't a limiting factor on where those opportunities can lie unless they've been personally wronged or found something out that makes it against their personal interest.  There is no communal blacklist across tribes, they only exist within single ones.  Since there are no PC tribes...you can take it as a rule that if you get a good business offer from a templar or do-gooder, and it benefits you, the elf?  You are well in your scope to do it, because benefit.

Trying to say that elves would ignore an incredibly real source of power and income based off of the same distrust (i.e. They will fuck you over in a second) they have for everyone outside of their tribe is kind of pushing too hard for elves to adapt a modern criminal mentality, and limiting their love for working people over in whatever way they can, as well as the corruption of the game world.

[Patuk]

You show me a (PC) templar who gives an elf even a slight chance at anything, and I'll show you a corpse. We'll see who runs out of examples first.

[Dakota]

No...no, I have not ever hired a hooker.

Let me rephrase:  Elves are incredibly opportunistic...you can take it as a rule that if you get a good business offer from a templar or do-gooder, and it benefits you... You are well in your scope to do it, because benefit.

Trying to say that elves would ignore an incredibly real source of power and income based off of the same distrust (i.e. They will fuck you over in a second) they have for everyone outside of their tribe is kind of pushing too hard for elves to adapt a modern criminal mentality, and limiting their love for working people over in whatever way they can, as well as the corruption of the game world.

Elves have the biggest RP advantage over all other races because they, in essence, can skirt over things like politics / ranks / positions of power and other posturing that happens outside of their tribe. Sure they can (if they choose) to dabble and dance in that game, but in the end, it's all about the fuckary.

An elf who is savvy, focused on the task at hand, operates with finesse, actually plays as an elf and is a bit lucky, can outwit, outmove and outdeal anyone because the boundaries of business for the elf aren't polluted by boundaries of law or politics beyond the tribe. This is even more fluid, agile and open than the realms of operation from the Big Merchant Houses...

In fact, it's not about your elf thinking...

ELF: "Do I want to get involved with this Templar?"...

It's more of your Elf creating a situation where a Templar/Noble is tempted by reputation/action/example in thinking...

TEMPLAR: "Do I want to get involved with this Nekker?"

Once that happens, the Elf is at the advantage. Because they will contact the Elf. They will posture according to -their- rank and politics and rules... They have too.

But the Elf won't, for he has no rules save for that of his tribes. The Elf can stick and move, dance and flick his tongue. The person who called the meeting with the Elf will want something, despite being in a 'position' of greater power... But remember... Once that meeting is called, the ELF is in the position of power because he has something the Templar/Noble wants. That's the MF'ing Ace. The Kruth Trump. And the hard part is getting your elf to that point... The HARDEST part following that, is playing that situation to your advantage where you end up on top, in greater profit, not in anyones pocket and have them and others lusting for more...

If you do it right, it'll happen.

Regardless of House.
Regardless of City.
Regardless of Race.
Regardless of Rank.

Believe me.

I know.

Sun Tzu was an elf. Shit be known.

You show me a (PC) templar who gives an elf even a slight chance at anything, and I'll show you a corpse. We'll see who runs out of examples first.

In 6 months I'll be glad to blow statements like this out of the water... With a slew of examples and the only corpses to be found that of empty and spent coin purses, chests and trunks.

If an elf (or tribe) reputation to provide a service or taste of profit spreads enough, everyone will come out of the woodwork, sands, palaces and gutters to get in on the action... And if you play it right, it will be on the elf's terms and in the elf's benefit AND the other party/s won't ever truely realise until it's way too late and they're in too deep to stop or cut out.

A c-elf is hard mode. More than any other race / role save for perhaps a Mul (Breeds should be harder but they get to cheat and can join clans and houses). But that makes the spoils that much sweeter and makes good roleplay that more attractive for people to get involved in.

In fact, c-elves are probably the most Armageddon race you can play if you're in the game for corruption, deals, steals, skull duggery and hot mudsex with long-eared, rail-thin, heroin-chic figures.

[Jingo]

Elves occupy some sort of limbo realm in Armageddon. There's always that one PC that's just a complete trooper and plays it as best they can.

But for every one of them, there's a dozen elves that get nowhere because they'll never be useful to anybody. And coupled with all the player head canon excusing how badly they treat elves, tends to make them get them get killed off for petty reasons.

For the record, I'm done playing elves. I'm so over getting killed for shitty reasons.

[Incognito]

Now I had a question about how the elves would view Nobles and the Highlord as well as templerate. I've read a few articles but wanted to get player opinions and bring the subject back up. Thanks in advance for the Feedback!

This is a great discussion point actually!

If you were a c-elf in Tuluk, it'd be a different view, specially if you were a Sjir elf.
If you were a c-elf in Allanak, it'd be yet a different view, specially if you were a rinther.
If you were a c-elf from anywhere else, it'd be yet a different view.
If you were a d-elf, it'd be an entirely different ball game.

In Tuluk, Sjir elves were actually cooperative with nobles and templars. The "enmity and hatred" against the nobles and templars was quite toned down, as compared to Allanak. And to some extent, the reverse was also true, northern nobles and templars "tolerated" Sjir elves much more than their Allanaki counterparts.

In Allanak, a typical rinthi c-elf will always believe that the nobles and templars do not have an iota of goodwill towards their race, and will always try to behave in a manner that is defensive (read: self-preservative). As for the nobles and templars, they will hold true to their perception, simply because the elves of the rinth have never given them cause or reason enough to think otherwise.

For c-elves from other locations, and d-elves as well, the nobles and templars would possibly appear as people to be avoided altogether, so as to remain under their radar.

Of course there are exceptions, when a c-elf and a noble, or a templar reach an agreement of sorts, to exchange goods or information - but those are usually temporary in nature, and riddled with suspicion on both sides.

No matter how rich, powerful, useful or honest a c-elf might appear to be, a templar or a noble will never have any qualms in killing the c-elf.

The status of rinthi elves in Nak especially is extremely low. I might go out on a limb and say that a noble or templar might hold his/her mount in higher esteem than a rinthi elf.

[wizturbo]

You show me a (PC) templar who gives an elf even a slight chance at anything, and I'll show you a corpse. We'll see who runs out of examples first.

I've seen it countless times.  I just don't see them put their arm around the elf publicly and say, "Elf, you're such a good fella!  Want to have a drink together?".

Elf-Templar interactions happen in back rooms, over the Way, or in jail.  But they happen, and they don't always end in corpses.

[CodeMaster]

...

Cue Wayne and Garth after Alice Cooper's history lesson

[Dakota]

...

Cue Wayne and Garth after Alice Cooper's history lesson

...In Tuluk, Sjir elves were actually cooperative with nobles and templars...

Sjir elves (while I did like a few of the more well-played, interesting ones), as a whole were a weird fit and a total paradox. The fact they were supposed to be so high regarded in their masonry skills and doing visible public works... were accepted by nobles / templars... and yet were this Warren-based tribe feinting to be shady, cut-throat elves on rooftops controlling illicit activities in the ghetto, meant they played opposite roles on both ends of the spectrum.

This led to really weird RP situations that wasn't the fault of the players but the tribes itself... If I'm a noble, do I hire these elves to carve a statue I want or do I tell these pimps, assassins and slumlords to "piss off back into the warrens."? Like what role are they really playing?

And if I'm a general criminal or an indie elf... Do I -really- want to get involved with a tribe that is so visibly close to the Templars / Nobles / public works?

A good tribe / house / clan / city / character at the core should result from a very simple concept. The Sjir are (were?) 2 or 3 concepts crammed into one tribe.

On that note, regardless of c-elf, d-elf or location, the general elven mindset wouldn't really change. Tribe first. Blood first. Always. Everything else and outside of that, is second-rate, inferior and at best is an opportunity to highlight the gap between said inferior and your superior self / tribe.

Elves don't work for a Templar or a Noble. They don't work with a Templar or a Noble. They CONvince a Templar or Noble or work -for- them...

[Armaddict]

They don't work with a Templar or a Noble. They CONvince a Templar or Noble or work -for- them...

Those two are usually intertwined.  Exchanges of favors are how this is often done.  Particularly when the favors for a templar still work in your benefit, but were not priorities until said templar or noble provided actual incentive.

"So if I do this thing that helps me, you will do that thing I can't do, which helps me.  Done deal.  Always a pleasure working with you, Lord Templar.  Come again next time you need something shady done, I might be able to do it, out of the -goodness- of my heart."

They are political creatures.  Intelligent, conniving, and cutthroat.  What they lose in physical prowess, they make up for in their culture's acceptance of shadiness and double-crossing; they're the trademarks of a powerful elf.

[wizturbo]

... double-crossing; they're the trademarks of a powerful elf.

I don't know about the double-crossing part.  An elf has just as much to gain as anyone else from having a reputation for following their end of a bargain.  And just as much to lose if they don't.

I think the key difference is an elf is much more likely to accept shady deals in the first place, or know how to go about carrying out those shady enterprises.  

That's not to say there isn't a racial stereotype towards elves being double-crossing bastards, but that doesn't mean a well played elf necessarily needs live up to those stereotypes.

[BadSkeelz]

I believe there is some retarded line in the elf docs that say they're always looking for a bigger score or challenge as part of their "culture of theft". Reneging on a deal or a double cross would be a kind of theft. Personally I think it's a rather stupid concept because of how self-destructive it is. Makes me wonder how elves survived in the cities at all.

[wizturbo]

I believe there is some retarded line in the elf docs that say they're always looking for a bigger score or challenge as part of their "culture of theft". Reneging on a deal or a double cross would be a kind of theft. Personally I think it's a rather stupid concept because of how self-destructive it is. Makes me wonder how elves survived in the cities at all.

It all comes down to interpretation of what that means.  Making a deal and following it exactly as agreed, but being clever on how that agreement was originally worded and taking advantage of some technicality seems much more elven to me than just reneging on a deal.

For whatever reason, I always envision the Pikers from that movie Snatch as a good analogy for Zalanthian elves.  They're shady as fuck, most of the deals you make with them tend to go their way, they're hesitant to actually agree to any specific terms of a deal, and if you try to cheat them they'll cheat you back twice as hard.

[BadSkeelz]

They are a good analogy... though part of what allows them to cheat you back twice as hard is their ability to disappear and escape retribution. A good analogy for Rinthi elves, less so proper City ones.

[wizturbo]

They are a good analogy... though part of what allows them to cheat you back twice as hard is their ability to disappear and escape retribution. A good analogy for Rinthi elves, less so proper City ones.

It isn't exactly clear what a proper city elf is.  Probably why they're so rare compared to 'rinthi or tribal elves.  Also because playing an elf is obviously meant for players who enjoy being at a huge disadvantage.   A character that cannot travel anywhere without a lot of effort, cannot join most clans, and is physically frail?  That's hard mode for ya, in a game that's already pretty hard mode to begin with.

[Dar]

I've been contemplating on returning to the game for 3 months now. Couldnt decide on what character to go. But this thread did it for me.

My Akai Sjir dealer actually cussed out Faithful in his thoughts every time he interactived with them. How the hell did he survive, I still dont know.

It's silly to think that a celf wouldnt want to use a Templar. Would a Delf choose not to use a sandstorm to outmanuever his opponents? Would a Delf not lure an invading army who are going to wipe out his tribe to a bunch of wezer domes and then stir them all up?  It's all the same. Templars are dangerous. But Templars can be useful.

[hyzhenhok]

I believe there is some retarded line in the elf docs that say they're always looking for a bigger score or challenge as part of their "culture of theft". Reneging on a deal or a double cross would be a kind of theft. Personally I think it's a rather stupid concept because of how self-destructive it is. Makes me wonder how elves survived in the cities at all.

Some elves might be inclined to follow through with the deal so they can score an even bigger take down the road. Different elves will have different preferences and patience when it comes to weighing the score at their fingertips versus a bigger one down the road. There are plenty of nuances like that, where it's perfectly conceivable that there might be wildly different ways to roleplay a scenario with elves that are all perfectly in line with the documentation.

In a way, I think this thread kind of got started on a false premise. Elves aren't all going to have the same attitude towards nobles and templars. Not even all city elves or all rinthi elves are going to have the same attitudes. The docs are not a straitjacket, and no race is a monolith.

[Armaddict]

In a way, I think this thread kind of got started on a false premise. Elves aren't all going to have the same attitude towards nobles and templars. Not even all city elves or all rinthi elves are going to have the same attitudes. The docs are not a straitjacket, and no race is a monolith.

Pretty much.  I enjoyed jumping in on it because some people like trying to enforce ideas like this pretty hard, as if the entire labyrinth (and everyone in it) is part of one big mafia with some unspoken loyalty to each other.  It's weird.  I imagine that such is why this thread even arose, was to clarify that.