Elves and Nobles

[Sinister]

Now I had a question about how the elves would view Nobles and the Highlord as well as templerate. I've read a few articles but wanted to get player opinions and bring the subject back up. Thanks in advance for the Feedback!

[555]

I, personally, would assume they're quite rightfully afraid of them, but at the same time would likely view the highborn the way they're viewed by them, with suspicion, an inconvenient fact of life that's not really going anywhere, but can and should be screwed over at the earliest available opportunity. Note this will not likely always be the case.

[Patuk]

Oh, boy. This thread has so much potential to get contentious.

First things first - the documentation is fairly clear on elves viewing everyone not in their tribe with a kind of 'screw them' attitude. They are smart enough to make intellectual distinctions between groups X and Y, but anyone not part of their tribe, whatever that might entail, is someone they simply don't care about on a moral level. They aren't people any more than scrab and mekillot are: both are either threats or potential opportunity to an elf, depending on the circumstance.

As for the nobility and the templarate in specific..

The templarate is easiest. Elves are going to really, really fucking hate the templarate, no exceptions. Corrupt as they are, there is nothing good an elf will ever see a templar do. The few things they have going for them - dealing with magickers and threats to Allanak's safety - are things elves generally won't get to deal with very often, if ever. Templars also are the people who routinely capture and execute innocents, publicly torture their siblings and parents, run a militia that's wildly uninterested in actually stopping crime and does much more harm to elves in general than good, and generally won't do anything to benefit an elf, ever. I'm of the mind that any average Allanaki commoner in general will hate the templarate, and this goes doubly so for elves.

The nobility doesn't spend quite so much of its time being actually oppressive, but that doesn't have to mean so much. Given that elves don't care for nobles at all, as they're not part of what they'd call tribes, they're just going to think of them as particularly wealthy roundears that are essentially the holy grail of fleecing opportunities. Given their pride and culture, I doubt elves would view nobles as inherently better than them, though they certainly are clever enough to put up the right appearance.

[Inks]

I agree with Patuk's views here, well put.

[Zerero]

agree with Patuk

[555]

I can imagine a scenario where an elf MIGHT work with the templarate, it would have to be to avenge a slight against something they perceived to be a greater evil, I would assume, to be called off the moment the aim is achieved.

[RogueGunslinger]

An elf would absolutely work with the templarate, but everything Patuk said still stands.

[Jingo]

Depends on the elf/tribe. There isn't any explicit reason why they wouldn't ever work for or near the templarate. It's kind of just the default configuration we have in which elves are always unrepentant criminals.

[Delirium]

Unrepentant criminals and templars should get along great... with the proper bribes and respect shown.

[Sinister]

Thanks again all. Definitely gave me something to RP with and thank you Patuk for the detailed answer. Definitely gives me a better picture of how to run a elf.

[Dresan]

I have yet to see an instance where a bribe has worked but thats another thread.

[RogueGunslinger]

The problem is you're trying to bribe after the fact, when the Templar already owns your ass. Give the bribes before you get caught.

[555]

The problem is you're trying to bribe after the fact, when the Templar already owns your ass. Give the bribes before you get caught.

^This.

[Patuk]

Elves can work together with templars, sure,  just as the Guild could, or a foreigner might. They just wouldn't like it very much.

[hyzhenhok]

Elves can work together with templars, sure,  just as the Guild could, or a foreigner might. They just wouldn't like it very much.

I would point to the bit in the elven roleplay help files that point out that elves are highly distrustful of outsiders, except those who have been tested (and testing is reserved for potential companions--so it's probably very rare that an elf would even think to test a templar). So I would go a bit further and say the elven mindset limits the extent to which a working relationship with a templar can go compared to other undesirables. A rinthi or a foreigner's biggest obstacle in dealing with templars are the templars' prejudice, but an elf has to grapple with his own prejudice as well. No matter how regular or routine their interaction with a templar is, an elf would keep their suspicion at the front of their mind where it would likely fade for others.

[Delirium]

You don't have to trust someone to work with them. Just the opposite, in fact... keep your enemies close, and all.

[Dresan]

The problem is you're trying to bribe after the fact, when the Templar already owns your ass. Give the bribes before you get caught.

The problem is you are assuming something, and its wrong.

I've seen bribes before and after, even to the tune of 40,000 sid once and its pretty futile. It is hard to buy a person gifts when they have have either everything, or just have no real need of it.

Again though I think its another thread more focused on the irrelevance of coins.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, I should have said "The problem generally is".

[wizturbo]

I've seen bribes before and after, even to the tune of 40,000 sid once and its pretty futile. It is hard to buy a person gifts when they have have either everything, or just have no real need of it.

Again though I think its another thread more focused on the irrelevance of coins.

In my experiences bribes work very, very well.   Sure, they might not have clothes or weapons or whatever they need anymore, but for 40,000 sid you can buy all kinds of virtual shit.  I promise you, there isn't a Blue Robed in the Known that won't consider doing something for the lowest, stinkiest, elf for that kind of money.   I'm guessing many noble's would consider it too, as long as no one ever found out about it.

Of course, if your elf happens to be a known sorcerer or something, there are some things that even money can't buy.

Here's a bribing pro-tip though, if you already have a bad relationship with the person you want to bribe, they might not be willing to work with you under any circumstances.  That doesn't mean its too late.  It just means you need to get an intermediary to help.  Nobles make -excellent- middlemen for all kinds of illicit deals.  The only thing the nobility has more of than money is political clout.  If you can't make something happen with 40,000 coin, I promise you a noble can.

[Saellyn]

Virtual shit to include paying Salarr for all the weapons and armor they supply the Arm with.

[Brokkr]

I assume you mean city elves?  Remember, city elves are adapted to life in the city.  A city elf knows how to survive templars, nobles and the law like their desert kin know how to survive anakore, dujat and gith.  Neither has figured out how to survive the Gaj.

Another thing to keep in mind is that elves are not a small minority, and are actually typically vastly under represented in the PC population.  In terms of the free population, there are nearly as many free elves as there are free humans in the city of Allanak, and other than in the Rinth, there isn't an obvious elven ghetto they are living and doing business in, like the Tuluk of yore had.

[nauta]

Another thing to keep in mind is that elves are not a small minority, and are actually typically vastly under represented in the PC population.  In terms of the free population, there are nearly as many free elves as there are free humans in the city of Allanak, and other than in the Rinth, there isn't an obvious elven ghetto they are living and doing business in, like the Tuluk of yore had.

This picture of the domestic (non-rinther) city elf in Allanak (which indeed is sorely under-represented in the PC population) reminds me of a question, related to the topic, I've always wondered:

Do city elves actually revere Tek in the way that (at least some, maybe many) Allanaki human citizens do?  Or is it all put on and show?

If this is too de-railly, feel free to chop it and put it in its own thread.

(I also thought Patuk's answers were great.  I've always wondered the same thing.)

[Patuk]

The documentation is really, really scarce on spirituality in general, and even the highlord worship is more something people seem to have been adding in for the past year or so than something especially integral to the setting and whatnot. My guess is that if elves worship the Highlord, they will do so in a way that shows him more as a Dragon and an immortal scary thing than as a human dude who got big. To use a (shoddy) analogy, protestants worship Jesus Christ just fine, even if that man himself was a jew; certainly there are still such people around, but those jews are in the wrong and worship god in the misguided way and they are not part of our own group. There are also Catholics and Orthodox people around claiming their view on who Jesus Christ was is correct, but they are wrong as well, the way we're doing it is best.

Another reason I picked the protestant analogy is because worshipping Tek whilst hating the templarate(which any poor Allanaki will) requires some way to dissociate the two. Early(and some later) protestants are the sorts of people who really cared nothing for a church hierarchy, but were/are no less serious about their Christian faith in general.

Oh, and I'm still just a player with an opinion, but steer disagreement away from the christianity thing, please. We have an OOC forum for that 

[Armaddict]

The eastside of the labyrinth, historically speaking, has often had good 'working relations' with the templarate.  There is no trust on either side.  Elves go to where profit is.  Elves go where the power is.  They go where their interests are.  An outsider is an outsider.  There is little reason for an elf to distrust a templar more than any other outsider; the assumption is that no matter who the outsider is, they want you either dead or to profit off of you, so your work is on making sure you always get what you want out of the deal even if you're allowing yourself to be manipulated.

Elves are very political creatures.  They shift and change as they and their tribe need.  The only 'line' for an elf to not cross is the loyalty to family.  Other than that?  All avenues are possible, and the dangerous elves are the ones who know they are distrusted, but know how to make the deals happen anyway.

Edited to add:  Just to be clear...nobles and templars who have a known history of fucking over elves...they're messing with a pretty big fire.  That is one of those things that can make normally unaffiliated tribes of elves join together in a 'fuck that guy'.  That's just how it works.

[Jingo]

The documentation is really, really scarce on spirituality in general, and even the highlord worship is more something people seem to have been adding in for the past year or so than something especially integral to the setting and whatnot. My guess is that if elves worship the Highlord, they will do so in a way that shows him more as a Dragon and an immortal scary thing than as a human dude who got big. To use a (shoddy) analogy, protestants worship Jesus Christ just fine, even if that man himself was a jew; certainly there are still such people around, but those jews are in the wrong and worship god in the misguided way and they are not part of our own group. There are also Catholics and Orthodox people around claiming their view on who Jesus Christ was is correct, but they are wrong as well, the way we're doing it is best.

Another reason I picked the protestant analogy is because worshipping Tek whilst hating the templarate(which any poor Allanaki will) requires some way to dissociate the two. Early(and some later) protestants are the sorts of people who really cared nothing for a church hierarchy, but were/are no less serious about their Christian faith in general.

Oh, and I'm still just a player with an opinion, but steer disagreement away from the christianity thing, please. We have an OOC forum for that 

I'm a big fan of the Durkheimian view. The totem raised by the society doesn't just represent the divinity. It represents the society as a whole. So in fact when Allanaki's are worshipping the Dragon, they are worshipping the city society they are a part of.

I don't think elves would worship the outside society in the same way. They might adopt imagery of the Dragon for whatever reason, but I think it's unlikey they worship whatever the god of the outside group is.