Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Harmless]

ARE they under my control? Or are many of them factors outside my control, or any players' control? That is the point: empowerment of players along these axes. Do I have control over my background? Somewhat, but some concepts are restricted; can I make a regular contact? Somewhat; it depends on playtimes though, and we can't coordinate with others effectively due to restrictions on OOC communication; are my skills and stats the way I want them? Usually not; the way the skills work is underwhelming or the selection of skills I made ends up being the "wrong one," but I can't change it without storage or death. Is advancing in a clan more than just a matter of living the longest? It's hard to argue against that when clans are populated by so few PCs that you compete with 3 others, tops, for any given promotion, and over time it's very likely 2 of them will die a random death and 1 will get bored and leave. You stuck around for 3 IC years, enjoy your promotion. How did I have any control over that besides just.. staying alive? Is that a good kind of control or is it the kind of control that favors stagnation and inaction? Why aren't the clans that are popular allowed to just grow to their fullest potential, rather than an arbitrary cap of 10 members per clan?

Those are just some examples of how rules, code, and staff decisions have hampered my control of my enjoyment, though I agree there is room for debate.

[Harmless]

I need to add this. I respect the staff enormously, think that everything they've been doing lately are steps in the RIGHT direction (I strongly favor change and experimentation in general), and have high hopes for the game. The points and arguments I am making are not meant to be indictments or threats. I am trying to give a voice to burnout in as many ways as I can; going into specifics can sometimes sound accusatory when people have had a direct hand in those aspects of the design. Or like I am just unsatisfied and can never be satisfied... etc.

I assure staff, I wish I could play regularly, but more importantly, I wish I WANTED to play regularly. I have amazing memories of this game and would be inspired to put in the hundreds of hours of playtime back into it if it didn't feel like such an uphill battle and like pure work. I also have had some really negative experiences and interactions with staff (and players) and need to state that as well; but the goal of my posts is to stimulate ideas and discussion and re-evaluation. If we keep talking about the same things and disagreeing in circles, it isn't brainstorming, just bickering.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Is advancing in a clan more than just a matter of living the longest? It's hard to argue against that when clans are populated by so few PCs that you compete with 3 others, tops, for any given promotion, and over time it's very likely 2 of them will die a random death and 1 will get bored and leave. You stuck around for 3 IC years, enjoy your promotion. How did I have any control over that besides just.. staying alive?

Can always state in your clan roll call **wants to avoid promotions past <rank>** and that'll put a bandaid on it.

[Desertman]

Is advancing in a clan more than just a matter of living the longest? It's hard to argue against that when clans are populated by so few PCs that you compete with 3 others, tops, for any given promotion, and over time it's very likely 2 of them will die a random death and 1 will get bored and leave. You stuck around for 3 IC years, enjoy your promotion. How did I have any control over that besides just.. staying alive?

I can think of a few times where I've come in and specifically outperformed people with a year or more of tenure on me to snatch promotions out from under them. I did it on purpose knowing exactly what I was doing every time. On two occasions they figured it out but by the time they did it was too late and I had already usurped their claim through swaying public opinion into my favor within the clan ranks.

Just staying alive is far from the only way to get promoted. It is A WAY to do it, but it isn't the only way, and in my opinion it's probably the least inspirational way....not only for the people below you, but also for yourself in terms of feeling you accomplished something.

The best way to get promoted is to play someone people want to follow. If you are the guy/gal everyone wants to follow, then they will start following you before you ever even get the promotion.

Once that starts happening the promotion is coming if you like it or not.

[Harmless]

I have tried to play MY version of that guy/gal. When I try to play a centered and reliable sort that people might want to follow, I get a few moments, but I never last long enough to get close. The best I can do is get 3-4 other members of my clan, both of lower and equal rank, to respect my PC, maybe to trust my PC to lead them on a few little RPTs.

More than a year ago I played a Salarri hunter, and tried to reach for Corporal. We once found ourselves in a canyon and suddenly felt the ground shake. We looked for a source of the sound for a while. More echoes. I forget exactly what I was thinking was coming at the time, but someone suggested something ICly that sufficiently scared my PC. We had NO REASON TO STAY; there were no injured to care for, the mounts were fresh, and we were out looking for something specific. I regret this, but I led the group away from the sounds into the scrub. Here was the account note I received for this decision:

Tends to react to echoes by immediately running away. Realistic, but a little disappointing. - 6/07/14

I should add that later in this PC's life I made other mistakes, apparently. Another RPT, and I think we were being flooded by mobs (that we were killing but were sustaining injuries). Here are my notes:

**** says.: Maybe the number of **** that come goes up if a bigger group enters. - 5/16/14
Very silly metagame speak. - 5/16/14

I don't even remember saying this, but to this day, it sits in my account notes, painting a picture of me that I'm a lazy RPer in leadership roles, or something.

Literally, I had made thousands of "say" commands for that PC over his career. Why is 1 out of the thousand that, I admit, was not my best, become the one example of my RP in my account notes?

There were some other interesting scenes after this. The negative account notes stopped coming once the old Corporal died. But, on one small little ride with a newer recruit later, one I had gotten to trust me somewhat and part of that trust involved taking him out.

On one of those rides, a mob of 12-16 tarantulas stomped that PC, because an ally started to spam flee away from.. one somewhat dangerous beetle, and when he came back he brought 12 spiders with him.

When that is all I can gain from an honest effort to become liked and lead a group, it is extremely discouraging. I have no more desire to play because I have tried 10-20 times and had 10-20 failures, so.. that's that. Especially when my earnest efforts take MONTHS... there just isn't any more time for that. I also lack the playtimes I had in my "good old days." But nothing has been encouraging throughout this process. The worst of it is that feeling EVERY TIME a leadership role call asks for "leadership experience." Because not only do I not have any ranked leadership experience, but the few examples of my leadership in my account notes are negative, without any positive ones, at all.

[Harmless]

But, I should share these other positive notes. None involve leadership, but just so it fairly portrays our staff:



Wonderful thinks when deceiving others. You get the impression it's all the PC's own doing and has nothing to do with the player behind the keys. - 11/11/11
Consistent and unique personality. I enjoy watching this one. - 11/28/11
Really nice solo hunting RP. Realistic tracking, fear of packs of animals, bandaging of wounds, etc. - 5/02/12
Suicided rather than store, but there was some cufusion over an agreement to store. - 1/09/13
Sent to Luir's by FL Aon to be a spy, seems to be doing decent so far. - 3/08/14

Of course, I don't have many stints as leaders, but.. this is a very hard wall to break through. The bolded notes were for PCs in clans with promotion scales. A threat of forced storage as a reply to a report for the PC in 11/28/11 came in reply to a report I had made. I complied with their instructions and stopped the activity immediately, and nothing else was said of it, but I didn't get much else in the way of direct guidance or feedback.

The one in 5/2/12 I threw away, and don't have any hard feelings about. I think that was a decent character, but I got bored of it, and I knew of a way to get "out"  somewhat realistically and it went as I predicted. But there were a few trips out I took with clanmates where I was leading, and it would have been nice to have staff comment on that. They didn't, I guess because it "wasn't enough time" or whatever..

To try and sum this shit up, it feels like I haven't really gotten even a step closer to your level of success, dman, in 4 years. I've kind of run out of time lately (I work 70 hours a week sometimes, and never less than 60), but I wouldn't even have a chance at succeeding in the "slow game" if my experiences are any indication.

[Desertman]

Well, if it makes you feel any better if I saw the note about you running away on your account notes I wouldn't think, "Wow that's dissapointing.", I would likely think, "Wow, this guy treats his PC like he's actually alive and not like he's a character in a video game.".

I might tally that one up as positive, but, that's the sort of staffer I would be too. *shrug*

(Why that even got the "disappointing" comment sort of blows my mind. It should have been worded, "Makes extremely careful decisions about his PC's life when it comes to echoes in the world. Realistic and impressive. Also, note it makes keeping him around to go further down the rabbit hole after echoes somewhat more difficult but this isn't his fault in any way, just plan ahead with future echoes if needed.".)

[Harmless]

negative notes are shit. The other thing is that I had several other I think BETTER attempts with later PCs, even got a few kudos, but staff had nothing to say about them, and it's been almost a year for them also.

I know that staff time is limited and that staff aren't perfect. But a lot of the gaming experience hinges a lot on chancy interactions and coinciding playtimes, the good luck that a staffer thinks of something to say TO you or ABOUT you, and the luck of the fucking dice.

I am not trying to say there's "bias" here, I totally understand that my situation is likely the result of bad luck more than anything. But why is the system such that luck is so fucking important? Why can't much more of the aspects of "progressing" be made automated, trouble-free, no questions asked?

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I'm under the impression, from past experience, that anyone human is vulnerable to unfair account notes and unfair generalizations about your play from staff. Right now at least one staffer thinks I don't know how to play an elf, through no fault of my own. Thankfully the missteps seem to be genuinely far and few between, but I play like 99.9% unclanned, and clannies are watched a lot more.

[Harmless]

Vulnerable to negative notes, seemingly highly resistant to positive ones, that sums it up. I have others that I won't share that basically portray me as a psycho. Here's the worst of it:

I force-stored this PC at this point, and advised the player seek out help. - 7/29/14

Thanks, that looks great also. =/

[ibusoe]

Vulnerable to negative notes, seemingly highly resistant to positive ones, that sums it up. I have others that I won't share that basically portray me as a psycho. Here's the worst of it:

I force-stored this PC at this point, and advised the player seek out help. - 7/29/14

Thanks, that looks great also. =/

I've never checked my account notes, don't need to.  I get plenty of karma from showing up regularly, responding well to criticism and striving always to improve. 

That being said, I can corroborate that some of the feedback that you're listing seems kind of pointlessly negative.  It's almost as though whatever staff are in charge of monitoring characters are capable only of focusing on what we're doing wrong.  This would tend to dampen morale. 

I happen to get along well with staff, think they're good guys, don't want to stop them from criticizing me.

But really, when was the last time you got a note from staff saying "Ahahahah, that scene you roleplayed last night was hilarious, keep up the good work."

I haven't gotten anything like that in about 8 years.

[Alesan]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

This thread is getting depressing. Let us think about other ways to retain players apart from account notes.

[Rokal]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

I can udnerstand this. I was highly daunted by a lot on my first 6 months, thing is. Despite being daunted I kept trying to do things. Don't let it push you away from the game. I found it very fun to tackle or take on the things that seemed to daunt me about the game..and helped me learn more about it too.

Then that made me want to stay.

Things feel so much better when you overcome something that felt impossible to do so!

This thread is getting depressing. Let us think about other ways to retain players apart from account notes.

This. Lets focus on something more positive.

[Jave]

For perspective and commiseration, here are some of my account notes:

Spamasting in the early AM, no emotes, thinks, nothing.

Also associating with REDACTED, whom he knows is a psi. Doesn't appear to have much in the way of the usual prejudice in this regard.

Spending time in Luir's with magicks on.

Knocked his expel skill down to 30 for expelling everyone--immediately--without even a good reason.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I think people are just butthurt over snapshot account notes. The fact that they send you an email for negative ones is a good thing.

[Norcal]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

Don't go. Please.

[Renenutet]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

If there's anything that you want to discuss to make things less intimidating, shoot a request my way.

[nauta]

I think people are just butthurt over snapshot account notes. The fact that they send you an email for negative ones is a good thing.

Agreed.  I like the new system, where negative and positive account notes get e-mails / requests / kudos shot your way when added.

[Case]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

You're awesome though

[BadSkeelz]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

Any specifics?

I remember being intimidated by powerful PCs as a newbie, and frustrated by a sense of relative powerlessness. Still do, in part. I had to learn to either ride them out until the PC was no longer a factor, or step up and be a little more active in their removal.

[BadSkeelz]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

Any specifics?

I remember being intimidated by powerful PCs as a newbie, and frustrated by a sense of relative powerlessness. Still do, in part. I had to learn to either ride them out until the PC was no longer a factor, or step up and be a little more active in their removal.

I want to add that one of the things that helped me "Get over" this hump was a lot of communication with staff and, to a smaller extent, private conversations with some other players. Not on the GDB, because the GDB is garbage.

[nauta]

This game can be intensely intimidating in a lot of ways. After several months of playing and reading the views of so many people on the GDB, it's starting to feel like I'm way out of my league. The only way this relates to the thread is the fact that it will probably be the reason I eventually move on.

Any specifics?

I remember being intimidated by powerful PCs as a newbie, and frustrated by a sense of relative powerlessness. Still do, in part. I had to learn to either ride them out until the PC was no longer a factor, or step up and be a little more active in their removal.

I want to add that one of the things that helped me "Get over" this hump was a lot of communication with staff and, to a smaller extent, private conversations with some other players. Not on the GDB, because the GDB is garbage.

Helper chat is so amazing.  I can't say it enough.  I still use it.

[TheWanderer]

I use helper chat for recipes, video game walkthroughs, essays, dog grooming, et cetera.

Highly recommended.

[KankWhisperer]

I have tried to play MY version of that guy/gal. When I try to play a centered and reliable sort that people might want to follow, I get a few moments, but I never last long enough to get close. The best I can do is get 3-4 other members of my clan, both of lower and equal rank, to respect my PC, maybe to trust my PC to lead them on a few little RPTs.

More than a year ago I played a Salarri hunter, and tried to reach for Corporal. We once found ourselves in a canyon and suddenly felt the ground shake. We looked for a source of the sound for a while. More echoes. I forget exactly what I was thinking was coming at the time, but someone suggested something ICly that sufficiently scared my PC. We had NO REASON TO STAY; there were no injured to care for, the mounts were fresh, and we were out looking for something specific. I regret this, but I led the group away from the sounds into the scrub. Here was the account note I received for this decision:

Tends to react to echoes by immediately running away. Realistic, but a little disappointing. - 6/07/14

I should add that later in this PC's life I made other mistakes, apparently. Another RPT, and I think we were being flooded by mobs (that we were killing but were sustaining injuries). Here are my notes:

**** says.: Maybe the number of **** that come goes up if a bigger group enters. - 5/16/14
Very silly metagame speak. - 5/16/14

I don't even remember saying this, but to this day, it sits in my account notes, painting a picture of me that I'm a lazy RPer in leadership roles, or something.

Literally, I had made thousands of "say" commands for that PC over his career. Why is 1 out of the thousand that, I admit, was not my best, become the one example of my RP in my account notes?

There were some other interesting scenes after this. The negative account notes stopped coming once the old Corporal died. But, on one small little ride with a newer recruit later, one I had gotten to trust me somewhat and part of that trust involved taking him out.

On one of those rides, a mob of 12-16 tarantulas stomped that PC, because an ally started to spam flee away from.. one somewhat dangerous beetle, and when he came back he brought 12 spiders with him.

When that is all I can gain from an honest effort to become liked and lead a group, it is extremely discouraging. I have no more desire to play because I have tried 10-20 times and had 10-20 failures, so.. that's that. Especially when my earnest efforts take MONTHS... there just isn't any more time for that. I also lack the playtimes I had in my "good old days." But nothing has been encouraging throughout this process. The worst of it is that feeling EVERY TIME a leadership role call asks for "leadership experience." Because not only do I not have any ranked leadership experience, but the few examples of my leadership in my account notes are negative, without any positive ones, at all.

I'm sure I have worse notes if I bothered to read notes. I've had some success as a leader.