Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Patuk]

50 people don't all have highly limited time to play and are rushing about to tell assassin X or private Y to do Z. It doesn't happen.

You're request to have more PC-PC interaction doesn't really make sense with the game atmosphere.

Thanks. Why?

[Delirium]

You can RP with people in your clan inside public places just fine. Bynners punching each other for a bit is was a common sight.

And, again, if people are so highly extremely very busy with their clans that they cannot roleplay normally functioning human beings who like to wind down and take things easy, we have one cause for people getting burnt out (and not joining clans) right there.

You're being hyperbolic here. You're also forgetting about virtual (offscreen) time.

[Alesan]

It's not so much about the tavern RP for me, the Gaj could be a public square for all I care. I just think it's really unhealthy for the game if there's not a lot of large-scale socialising between different groups going on or if it's nigh-impossible for new players/characters to actually make those contacts you mentioned.

[Desertman]

You know how you retain players?

The chain of command.

It's the chain Rath goes and gets to beat you with when you try to leave.

[BadSkeelz]

You know, if there was less crimcode, it would give the Byn and Arm of the Dragon something to actively do in the cities outside their compounds (guarding, whether at large or on contract). Just saying.


Otherwise I think it's important for clan leaders to get their name out there with a publicly available means of communication and potential recruitment.

[Patuk]

You can RP with people in your clan inside public places just fine. Bynners punching each other for a bit is was a common sight.

And, again, if people are so highly extremely very busy with their clans that they cannot roleplay normally functioning human beings who like to wind down and take things easy, we have one cause for people getting burnt out (and not joining clans) right there.

You're being hyperbolic here. You're also forgetting about virtual (offscreen) time.

I am, but it's the easiest way to illustrate my point. The offscreen thing can be partially true - I could argue that my character is a very sociable and outgoing person who gets drunk all the time, (I'm aware of the hyperbole, thanks) it only happens offscreen, but I'm not a fan of such an argument. If I spent my days playing an elf with an extremely generous, trusting and altruistic personality but decided all their thinking about thieving only happened offscreen I'd not be doing very well either.

[nauta]

You know, if there was less crimcode, it would give the Byn and Arm of the Dragon something to actively do in the cities outside their compounds (guarding, whether at large or on contract). Just saying.


Otherwise I think it's important for clan leaders to get their name out there with a publicly available means of communication and potential recruitment.

Dunno about the crimcode (I know the thread you are referring to though), but one thing that had me frustrated playing a criminal was how hard it was to find a PC soldier to bugger -- they were all locked up in their compound or on an RPT doing 'clan things'.  I can't talk about it yet, but once we did find one or two to bugger, the reaction was epic.

In any case, Patuk/Alesan are bringing up an important area of concern, relevant to player retention, and something worth thinking hard about how to fix, as players.  It really is frustrating, and it's not just a Dutch thing -- you start thinking that there are 'cliques' out there, that the players are a bunch of elitist turds who don't care about humdrum newbies; it really is hard to figure out how to 'interact' in that special Armageddon way; and, what's worse, it leads to logging out, idling, or just giving up.

CodeWarrior has a nice suggestion to staff: try to get some of those intersections looked into.

But as players, I think our plots should have an eye towards interaction (especially with newbies).  This can manifest itself on a lot of levels:

o first and foremost, get those new players in clans; but that won't solve everything -- there's downtime, and time when other clan members aren't around, so...

o break character now and then to incorporate a newbie into something

o go to public spaces regularly and often; post rumours about clan activities; make more clan activities involve public spaces -- stab that spider head on the Gaj wall after the hunt, give your hunters some sid and tell them to bugger off and celebrate, etc.

o don't just use think/feel, but put yourself out there in your emotes and language

[Delirium]

You can RP with people in your clan inside public places just fine. Bynners punching each other for a bit is was a common sight.

And, again, if people are so highly extremely very busy with their clans that they cannot roleplay normally functioning human beings who like to wind down and take things easy, we have one cause for people getting burnt out (and not joining clans) right there.

You're being hyperbolic here. You're also forgetting about virtual (offscreen) time.

I am, but it's the easiest way to illustrate my point. The offscreen thing can be partially true - I could argue that my character is a very sociable and outgoing person who gets drunk all the time, (I'm aware of the hyperbole, thanks) it only happens offscreen, but I'm not a fan of such an argument. If I spent my days playing an elf with an extremely generous, trusting and altruistic personality but decided all their thinking about thieving only happened offscreen I'd not be doing very well either.

[ibusoe]

Thanks. Why?

Most people have the ability to choose social characters, yet choose not to.  Bard?  Social character.  Beggar?  Social character.  Peddler?  Social character.  Most people don't play stuff like this.  

You have to understand that like 50% of the human species simply aren't bar people.  

Anyone who is playing an elf, has signed up for an isolated role.  Same for a dwarf.  Nobles are noteworthy for their extreme level of isolation.  Criminals likewise.  These are the kinds of roles that your average player wants to play.  

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.  Socialization happens, but that's not the focus of the game.  The GDB is better suited for socialization.  

I think it's difficult for people sometimes to accept that no one wants to socialize with their character, and in my opinion game policies only frustrate the problem.  For example, you aren't allowed to to organize things out of game, with the exception of HRPT.  And you aren't allowed to have a player character family, for the most part.  And you can't recruit real life people to come play in your little group or whatever.  Maybe these policies should be liberalized?

[Malken]

As harsh as it may sound, I shouldn't have to bore myself to death at the bar because you can't get people to take interest in your PC. If you are constantly spending hours at the bar and you still have no one that you can call a "relation" then maybe you need to take another look at your character or rp'ing style. I've met so many characters in the past that just sit at the bar and barely communicate with anyone and I shouldn't have to bend myself backward just to make sure that this person feels entertained in return.

I've never had any problem getting myself relations of any kind within hours of my character's creation and once I've had 2-3 good people to rp with, I tend to skip the whole bar scene afterward because otherwise I just end up with too many people wishing for my presence and that just creates a whole different nightmarish scenario.

It doesn't matter if you're playing at peak or off-peak, if you're fun people will come to you, but if you're no fun, even if there's 50 people sitting at the Gaj, you'll probably be the guy/girl bitching to your friend on AIM how annoying that other character is because he's got all the attention and no one's paying any to your PC.

Just be fun and/or not an elf.

[Malken]

I think it's difficult for people sometimes to accept that no one wants to socialize with their character, and in my opinion game policies only frustrate the problem.  For example, you aren't allowed to to organize things out of game, with the exception of HRPT.  And you aren't allowed to have a player character family, for the most part.  And you can't recruit real life people to come play in your little group or whatever.  Maybe these policies should be liberalized?

Considering that pretty much everyone does it anyway, probably.

To add: Instead of making me feel guilty because I don't want to spend forever in bars just to entertain lonely PCs, I think it's about time that we start advertising clans and their players' schedule publicly so that other players could see at what times those clans are hoppin' and if there would be a good match for said clan. If I knew that Kadius was really popular after 11 pm EST and that there's three other players that play at that time there, then I might want to make a character in that clan with the knowledge that I'll have people to play with.

[Patuk]

[hilarious reaction gif]

Classy.

Thanks. Why?

Anyone who is playing an elf, has signed up for an isolated role.  Same for a dwarf.  Nobles are noteworthy for their extreme level of isolation.  Criminals likewise.  These are the kinds of roles that your average player wants to play.  

I guess, okay, with you so far..

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.  Socialization happens, but that's not the focus of the game.  The GDB is better suited for socialization.  

.. Um, what?

I like playing elves. Other people like playing dwarves. In my ideal world, playing an elf wouldn't be an isolated role. Certainly some amount of people playing dwarves would like for their roles to be more easily social, too. I have no way of measuring this, but I said 'some' rather than all for a reason.

The problem is that none of this works out. There is a very strong mentality of 'because it is so in the game, people must want for it to be so' in the game. People don't go and play criminals or nobles because they go 'oh boy now I can go and NOT deal with people and have fun on my own!' They play criminals because they want to heist a goddamn templar's personal quarters or start up some kind of protection racket, they play nobles to get a statue of themselves placed on every street corner and their rivals in the senate in trouble every single year.

If you don't like social roles, that's not a problem, the game doesn't force you to be as such. You posted stuff like bard or beggar as roles that force you to be social, and this make sense. For other roles, there technically is a choice. If you want to be a ranger, you can go chill at the bar all the time and still spend other days skilling up. Ditto for warriors, merchants, whatever.

I just don't like that the public parts of the game seem really empty for some reason, and an argument along the lines of 'well they must just LIKE staying on their own' doesn't make much sense at all to me.

[Alesan]

You can RP with people in your clan inside public places just fine. Bynners punching each other for a bit is was a common sight.

And, again, if people are so highly extremely very busy with their clans that they cannot roleplay normally functioning human beings who like to wind down and take things easy, we have one cause for people getting burnt out (and not joining clans) right there.

You're being hyperbolic here. You're also forgetting about virtual (offscreen) time.

I am, but it's the easiest way to illustrate my point. The offscreen thing can be partially true - I could argue that my character is a very sociable and outgoing person who gets drunk all the time, (I'm aware of the hyperbole, thanks) it only happens offscreen, but I'm not a fan of such an argument. If I spent my days playing an elf with an extremely generous, trusting and altruistic personality but decided all their thinking about thieving only happened offscreen I'd not be doing very well either.

How very constructive.

[Narf]

I think it's difficult for people sometimes to accept that no one wants to socialize with their character, and in my opinion game policies only frustrate the problem.  For example, you aren't allowed to to organize things out of game, with the exception of HRPT.  And you aren't allowed to have a player character family, for the most part.  And you can't recruit real life people to come play in your little group or whatever.  Maybe these policies should be liberalized?

To add: Instead of making me feel guilty because I don't want to spend forever in bars just to entertain lonely PCs, I think it's about time that we start advertising clans and their players' schedule publicly so that other players could see at what times those clans are hoppin' and if there would be a good match for said clan. If I knew that Kadius was really popular after 11 pm EST and that there's three other players that play at that time there, then I might want to make a character in that clan with the knowledge that I'll have people to play with.

There's one or two old Kurac recruiting posts from a year or two back that advertise playtimes. I think I was in Kurac at the time of one of them, and my impression was that it did help a bit.

[bardlyone]

Let players have a greater affect on the world ie: items, rooms, npcs, clans, etc.

Because the people whose playstyles cater to wanting to change things or create new content will, have, and do leave, regardless of every thing the game might have going for it, when 90% of the options for doing that are taken off the table. After all, there are other worlds that cater to that, where roleplay is just as enforced.

RE: empty taverns problems.

I'm torn on this one. I hate tavern sitting RP. I prefer socializing via the Way while doing things. But with character turnover, unless you only talk to the handful of people not dying each week, your social network is constantly dwindling. Taverns should feel fuller somehow, yes. But I don't think the solution to that is to make people feel bad for not liking being there, because that's not going to change the root of why they don't want to be there (typically it's because the player prefers action-based roleplay, in my experience, and it's really hard to make sitting on a stool something very... well... productive or action packed, in any but the most abstract sense).

[Taven]

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.  Socialization happens, but that's not the focus of the game.  The GDB is better suited for socialization.

What definition are you using for "socialization" here? Because I generally think of socializing as pretty important to Armageddon. There's a good number of roles that revolve around socializing. Further, in order to hire people, expand influence, or do anything really interesting... There's usually some socializing involved. Even if I'm in a fighting clan... There'd better be some sort of socializing with my fellows, or I'm going to be bored out of my mind.

Socializing is what makes Armageddon a role-playing game and not a hack and slash.
 

I think it's difficult for people sometimes to accept that no one wants to socialize with their character, and in my opinion game policies only frustrate the problem.  For example, you aren't allowed to to organize things out of game, with the exception of HRPT.  And you aren't allowed to have a player character family, for the most part.  And you can't recruit real life people to come play in your little group or whatever.  Maybe these policies should be liberalized?

Uh, you can have a PC family. It's extremely easy to do. The guidelines can be found by clicking here. I've had a PC family before, and it was a pretty quick and easy process. The longest part was probably just recruiting people for the roles. Yes, you are capped at 3 other PCs besides yourself, but that's still a pretty good chunk of people.

Organizing things can be tough sometimes. On the other hand, I don't want to entirely OOCly source this either. There's been some suggestions in this thread already about that, though--Creation of special boards or the like, to try and make it easier for large-scale RPTs to be coordinated.

Recruitment being done IC is to facilitate IC relationships happening. That said, I do think it's nice when there's an extra advertisement for certain groups or areas. This is especially true for IC clans that have no recruitment abilities. Namely, tribals. I think that Rath advertising that Cool Stuff (tm) will be happening in that area is pretty great. I don't know if we should have players able to do this on their own or not, it would depend on the proposal. I do think that if you want a role to be filled, or feel your clan is suffering, you could always open a dialog with staff about it. I think that's why the Tuluki call for "gritty roles" (also fronted by Rath) happened.

[Alesan]

Let players have a greater affect on the world ie: items, rooms, npcs, clans, etc.

Because the people whose playstyles cater to wanting to change things or create new content will, have, and do leave, regardless of every thing the game might have going for it, when 90% of the options for doing that are taken off the table. After all, there are other worlds that cater to that, where roleplay is just as enforced.

RE: empty taverns problems.

I'm torn on this one. I hate tavern sitting RP. I prefer socializing via the Way while doing things. But with character turnover, unless you only talk to the handful of people not dying each week, your social network is constantly dwindling. Taverns should feel fuller somehow, yes. But I don't think the solution to that is to make people feel bad for not liking being there, because that's not going to change the root of why they don't want to be there (typically it's because the player prefers action-based roleplay, in my experience, and it's really hard to make sitting on a stool something very... well... productive or action packed, in any but the most abstract sense).

To speak from my part, I don't think we should be trying to make people feel bad for not wanting tavern-sitting RP. To me, it's less about the tavern sitting and more about making contacts from finding people who actually are accessible in-game and not behind a clan compound, or apartment barrier, or what have you. I don't know what the solution to this is. But many of us seem to agree that there is a problem here, we just don't seem to be coming up with any decent solutions.

[Renenutet]

Tavern sitting is not something to force upon anyone. Some people enjoy it. For other's it's less enjoyable. That said, I think with regards to hooking new players, Patuk is right. There's a lot to be said for having a busy hub.

Don't change your role playing habits to include things you despise. However, if you find yourself with down time, consider going to the bars to mingle. It's got benefits beyond the attraction of bar chatter.

[bardlyone]

Tavern sitting is not something to force upon anyone. Some people enjoy it. For other's it's less enjoyable. That said, I think with regards to hooking new players, Patuk is right. There's a lot to be said for having a busy hub.

Don't change your role playing habits to include things you despise. However, if you find yourself with down time, consider going to the bars to mingle. It's got benefits beyond the attraction of bar chatter.

That's more or less exactly what I was trying to convey about tavern sitting but worded a hell of a lot better. +1

[Erythil]

Tavern sitting is not something to force upon anyone. Some people enjoy it. For other's it's less enjoyable. That said, I think with regards to hooking new players, Patuk is right. There's a lot to be said for having a busy hub.

Don't change your role playing habits to include things you despise. However, if you find yourself with down time, consider going to the bars to mingle. It's got benefits beyond the attraction of bar chatter.

I was always thought it would be interesting to have one of the taverns set up such that it is simultaneously both a fashionable meeting place for people higher up the ladder, but also welcomes the lower class.  Maybe expressed in terms of like a lower floor for the rabble, and a balcony area for the rich, but the two can see each other and it's not a faux pas for some mingling to happen.  Red's is almost this, but if you're upstairs doing GMH or noble things nobody's gonna see you from the street when they decide whether or not they want to go in.

[seidhr]

You can definitely be an elf and be social, even with non-elves!  It's maybe a little trickier, and it takes someone willing to play the scene(s) with you, but can be even more fun.

[solera]

Though my PCs didn't use it much, I liked that bench on the corner near the Sanctuary.

[Patuk]

I don't think people should be made to feel bad or somehow forced to head to the Gaj because reasons, either. Instead, I just pointed out how the current situation can contribute to a problem. That's it.

[Renenutet]

I was always thought it would be interesting to have one of the taverns set up such that it is simultaneously both a fashionable meeting place for people higher up the ladder, but also welcomes the lower class.  Maybe expressed in terms of like a lower floor for the rabble, and a balcony area for the rich, but the two can see each other and it's not a faux pas for some mingling to happen.  Red's is almost this, but if you're upstairs doing GMH or noble things nobody's gonna see you from the street when they decide whether or not they want to go in.

Funny you should say that. 

[Jave]

The period of building skill is perhaps one of the most agonizing aspects of the game. You're insignificant, a nobody. As a merchant you can't craft things people want, yet are totally dependent on others. As a fighter you still fail in all your basic combative duties for years, looking like a fool. having low wisdom throughout this period sucks. That I have had to endure this phase in basically every PC's life I've played and never enjoyed that sweet feeling of success at being reliably alive and useful and wanted, is why I don't play anymore. I have no desire to keep LOSING when other people not only win, but rub it in the losers' faces (both in game in an IC manner and here, on the GDB, where attitudes about stats, karma, and skill grinding/character building have been condescending for as long as I can remember playing).

It's unfortunate that you don't play anymore. Sorry to hear that.

I don't believe that allowing stat boosts would address the problem that you voice here because as Eury and I both mentioned before: Wisdom does not work the way you claim that it works, and skill levels are not derived from it.

But it is none the less a shame that you haven't been able to gain a sense of satisfaction from any of the characters you've played. I'm a very accomplishment oriented gamer myself, and the frustration you describe would hit me hard as well.