Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Delirium]

You can RP with people in your clan inside public places just fine. Bynners punching each other for a bit is was a common sight.

And, again, if people are so highly extremely very busy with their clans that they cannot roleplay normally functioning human beings who like to wind down and take things easy, we have one cause for people getting burnt out (and not joining clans) right there.

You're being hyperbolic here. You're also forgetting about virtual (offscreen) time.

I am, but it's the easiest way to illustrate my point. The offscreen thing can be partially true - I could argue that my character is a very sociable and outgoing person who gets drunk all the time, (I'm aware of the hyperbole, thanks) it only happens offscreen, but I'm not a fan of such an argument. If I spent my days playing an elf with an extremely generous, trusting and altruistic personality but decided all their thinking about thieving only happened offscreen I'd not be doing very well either.

How very constructive.

I saw absolutely no reason to continue debating with hyperbolic, strawman arguments. That's also nonconstructive.

Point of fact is, I've met more characters that mine has made lasting friendships/enmities with while "out and about" than I have sitting at bars.

One of my all-time favorite nemesis relationships started when I was scouting for someone.

If you keep things interesting and are fun to interact with, plots will happen. If you are missing one of those ingredients, it doesn't matter how much bar sitting you do.

So while I understand the need of having a busy hub and to draw people in, I also don't think it's fair to shake your finger at people who hate tavern sitting for hours on end. Those are usually the people who are out plotting, scheming, interacting, hunting, skulking, or doing whatever to further their characters' story, and it just happens to not involve sitting at the bar much. Deal with it?

[Alesan]

I saw absolutely no reason to continue debating with hyperbolic, strawman arguments. That's also nonconstructive.

Point of fact is, I've met more characters that mine has made lasting friendships/enmities with while "out and about" than I have sitting at bars.

One of my all-time favorite nemesis relationships started when I was scouting for someone.

If you keep things interesting and are fun to interact with, plots will happen. If you are missing one of those ingredients, it doesn't matter how much bar sitting you do.

So while I understand the need of having a busy hub and to draw people in, I also don't think it's fair to shake your finger at people who hate tavern sitting for hours on end. Those are usually the people who are out plotting, scheming, interacting, hunting, skulking, or doing whatever to further their characters' story, and it just happens to not involve sitting at the bar much. Deal with it?

I didn't think anyone was shaking fingers at people who despise bar-sitting RP. A couple of us actually said that wasn't the intention. The problem of lack of a hub was pointed out. Despite what you believe about the necessity of such a thing, other people do agree that it presents a problem. But I guess all that means to you is we're just all too boring for you to bother with.

[Delirium]

Whoa there negative nelly.

It's a bit funny, every time I try to post something, get a hyperbolic response, and point it out, I get another hyperbolic response in turn.

Everyone has room for improvement in their roleplay (including me), I was responding primarily to the idea that you're not promoting interaction if you're not bar sitting. I find that to be patently untrue.

So, yes, if you're (colloquial you) constantly struggling to find interaction (and aren't an off-peak player), then I would definitely suggest taking an honest look at your roleplay style to see if there's something you could improve. In a lot of ways we're actually in agreement, you're just choosing me to lash out at for whatever reason. Maybe take a break from the internet and go have a nice day in the sunshine.

[Molten Heart]

The great thing about finding people outside of civilized areas (outside of a bar)  is I know they're not idling (or even pretending to be idle) and are available to roleplay with in meaningful ways outside of just conversation (not that bar roleplay is only limited to just conversation it just doesn't seem meaningful).

[Norcal]

Whoa there negative nelly.

It's a bit funny, every time I try to post something, get a hyperbolic response, and point it out, I get another hyperbolic response in turn.

Everyone has room for improvement in their roleplay (including me), I was responding primarily to the idea that you're not promoting interaction if you're not bar sitting. I find that to be patently untrue.

So, yes, if you're (colloquial you) constantly struggling to find interaction (and aren't an off-peak player), then I would definitely suggest taking an honest look at your roleplay style to see if there's something you could improve. In a lot of ways we're actually in agreement, you're just choosing me to lash out at for whatever reason. Maybe take a break from the internet and go have a nice day in the sunshine.

Be nice to Delirium, and just in general.

[Malken]

But I guess all that means to you is we're just all too boring for you to bother with.

It's me who thinks that, not Delirium.

[ibusoe]

Point of fact is, I've met more characters that mine has made lasting friendships/enmities with while "out and about" than I have sitting at bars.

So to be clear, you don't like MUD Sex or bar crawling.  May I safely guess that you also don't like spice or arena matches?  Are there any other things that you don't like, that you'd care to draw to our attention?

[whitt]

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.

I'm confused by this.

Why would you play Arm (or really any RPI Mud) instead of any H&S game if not to get involved in the social aspects of the game?  You don't need a text-based RPI Mud to skill up and explore a world all by your little lonesome.

[Molten Heart]

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.

What do you mean by socialize?

[Narf]

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.

I'm confused by this.

Why would you play Arm (or really any RPI Mud) instead of any H&S game if not to get involved in the social aspects of the game?  You don't need a text-based RPI Mud to skill up and explore a world all by your little lonesome.

Probably they're using a stricter definition of the concept of "socialize"

For instance, I wouldn't call the process of playing a tabletop RPG where you stay in character the whole time as "socializing" by my definition of the word. Shooting the shit while the GM is in the bathroom though, that would count.

[Malken]

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.

I'm confused by this.

Why would you play Arm (or really any RPI Mud) instead of any H&S game if not to get involved in the social aspects of the game?  You don't need a text-based RPI Mud to skill up and explore a world all by your little lonesome.

Because every characters on Armageddon is unique and death is permanent, so it gives you some sort of accomplishment feeling when you achieve something. And it's not because you're not into socializing with others that it means you don't enjoy role-playing with others and the world around you. While I'm not big into the social scene either, I don't want to bump into someone in the middle of the harsh world and hear him say, "yo, u got fallout 4 yet?".

[Alesan]

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.

I'm confused by this.

Why would you play Arm (or really any RPI Mud) instead of any H&S game if not to get involved in the social aspects of the game?  You don't need a text-based RPI Mud to skill up and explore a world all by your little lonesome.

Because every characters on Armageddon is unique and death is permanent, so it gives you some sort of accomplishment feeling when you achieve something. And it's not because you're not into socializing with others that it means you don't enjoy role-playing with others and the world around you. While I'm not big into the social scene either, I don't want to bump into someone in the middle of the harsh world and hear him say, "yo, u got fallout 4 yet?".

I think there's a misunderstanding in what socialize means in this context.

Is Armageddon a place for players to socialize? No.

Is Armageddon a place for characters to socialize? Well, based on everything I've read, it must depend on the character. But it could be.

I think the main topic, though, is characters socializing, not players.

[solera]

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.

I'm confused by this.

Why would you play Arm (or really any RPI Mud) instead of any H&S game if not to get involved in the social aspects of the game?  You don't need a text-based RPI Mud to skill up and explore a world all by your little lonesome.

Because foraging in the scrublands was the best game experience I'd ever had. I'm different now, since one of my PCs joined the Byn and I found other treasures. I also prefer playing GW by myself.
Just saying, there is a lot of reasons for being retained.

[Renenutet]

Stop it. Everyone take a breath. You can disagree about things without making it personal. Please cool it. Thanks in advance.

[Riev]

Stop it. Everyone take a breath. You can disagree about things without making it personal. Please cool it. Thanks in advance.

It may be that people take offense to a generalized "if you cant enjoy the game you suck". Even if true, its basically the attitude that keeps people from enjoying the game.

Related: i was taught that basically people have day jobs and then go to taverns to socialize and make contacts. This no longer seems the case. People sit at bars to make contacts but dont talk. Or contribute. Or use it as a safe AFK room.

I cannot recount the last time i saw a clan roll into the Gaj or old Firestorm and have a clan night. I used to do it in the Byn and dogpile people that pissed off runners. Now we have no talking seat warmers that never see leadership

[Old Kank]

I feel like tavern use has shifted in the wake of wide-spread apartment availability.  They used to be a place for characters to meet, socialize, AND conduct business.  If you were at the right tavern at the right time, you could get an actual sense of what's happening in the game.  Now those few leaders and others with actual business to conduct do so in their estates or apartments.  This leaves the rest to slog through the same tired cliches (buff and grizzled, weird and unwanted, and sexy but dull) having the same used up interactions day in and day out.

[CodeMaster]

I think everyone would agree that it is good when characters interact with each other, which usually involves their characters inhabiting the same room if just for an instant.  Whether you're out at some particular resource location in the desert, or you're in a tavern is just a detail (and probably not worth disagreeing over).

What might not be ideal is having players segregated and non-intersecting (or with a Bacon number greater than 1 or 2).  Arena events are good: they bring everyone into the same location, and they might walk past each other, even just on the road outside.  The fact that the players in the T'zai Byn walk back and forth along a route that is non-intersecting with the route the players in the Atrium take* isn't so good.

* assumption, I might be wrong -- so just take it as an example.

[CodeMaster]

I feel like tavern use has shifted in the wake of wide-spread apartment availability.  They used to be a place for characters to meet, socialize, AND conduct business.  If you were at the right tavern at the right time, you could get an actual sense of what's happening in the game.  Now those few leaders and others with actual business to conduct do so in their estates or apartments.  This leaves the rest to slog through the same tired cliches (buff and grizzled, weird and unwanted, and sexy but dull) having the same used up interactions day in and day out.

This is a really good point.  Maybe there is a locked-door divide between new players and established veterans that could be alleviated by encouraging more intersections.

[Narf]

I feel like tavern use has shifted in the wake of wide-spread apartment availability.  They used to be a place for characters to meet, socialize, AND conduct business.  If you were at the right tavern at the right time, you could get an actual sense of what's happening in the game.  Now those few leaders and others with actual business to conduct do so in their estates or apartments.  This leaves the rest to slog through the same tired cliches (buff and grizzled, weird and unwanted, and sexy but dull) having the same used up interactions day in and day out.

I've actually started making it a point to conduct business openly in taverns whenever I can. I think it's IC to do business in taverns particularly for people that commonly want to do /more/ business with tavern goers. It sends a message that you're "open for business" if people do deals in public spaces.

[Eurynomos]

I feel like tavern use has shifted in the wake of wide-spread apartment availability.  They used to be a place for characters to meet, socialize, AND conduct business.  If you were at the right tavern at the right time, you could get an actual sense of what's happening in the game.  Now those few leaders and others with actual business to conduct do so in their estates or apartments.  This leaves the rest to slog through the same tired cliches (buff and grizzled, weird and unwanted, and sexy but dull) having the same used up interactions day in and day out.

I've actually started making it a point to conduct business openly in taverns whenever I can. I think it's IC to do business in taverns particularly for people that commonly want to do /more/ business with tavern goers. It sends a message that you're "open for business" if people do deals in public spaces.

I agree, and endorse public tavern meetings. There's always a rentable space if the conversation gets hot and heavy! Plus, having a chance of your plots being overheard just perpetuates more conflict.

[Riev]

I think it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to, on occasion, take over the entire bar and just have a huge clan night. Like, Kadius takes all their merchants/crafters/hunters to the Gaj and they just buy tons of beer and food. This would occasionally liven up a bar, reach more newbies coming into the game, and make the world seem a bit more alive.

I mean. Soldiers have got to be off duty, right? Bynners in the evening? GMH employees that maybe want to work on things outside of the clan, for their own personal gain?

It doesn't all have to be the Gaj, but I think some of the most fun times for me have been in the Gaj, with the Byn and maybe a Sergeant, causing a general ruckus. Play a game of Tek's Tower and, when you lose, punch the nearest breed in the face for breathing too heavily. Have the whole unit brawl some idiot that says something about the "Shitcloaks" while yelling 'tok pile. Buy a lot of drinks for that guy that kicks everyone's ass in morning sparring so you all have a chance. Not every day, maybe not even every week, but these kinds of things bring the world alive a bit more without resorting to staff animations and room echoes.

[Dresan]

I really hate to say this, but if your character is interesting and more importantly engaging, eventually the tavern ends up finding you.

The only people I go out of my way to make conversation with are total newbies. If there was a system that alerted me to newbies entering the game for the first time, I'd probably visit the tavern even less. When i do enter a tavern its often when I really have absolutely nothing better to do. Unfortunately the tavern is not always the best place to meet people even if its full. Alot of people there are often there sitting idle, or just waiting to be entertained. Even I've been guilty of this from time to time. There are times when you greet some people, or try to get to know them, and sadly they often have very little to offer in terms of conversation, heck alot of time they don't even seem interested in talking at all. Thats fine, they are welcomed to play whatever they like, but I have better things to do than get them to open up.  

I'm not saying this is a majority of the people, but its common enough that I try to find something else to do other than sit at a tavern. The best way to meet people seems to be to go out and do stuff anyways. Even the quiet brooding types in the tavern sudden become a bit more talkative when you find them in the salt flats and look as if you are about to charge their asses anyways. When tuluk was still around some of my characters used to sit on the bench in the intersection just east of the sanctuary before the changes to the layout of the city. I was always surprised how long I'd end up talking to people there as they went about their business.  

If you ask me the tavern just works better when you find someone interesting to talk to first and then take them to the tavern for a drink.

[ibusoe]

What do you mean by socialize?

Socializing is when you

bump into someone in the middle of the harsh world and hear him say, "yo, u got fallout 4 yet?".

I'll give a nod to Malken and (*ahem*) Alleson for saying interesting things on the topic as well.

Or if you like, you may look at it this way:

For instance, I wouldn't call the process of playing a tabletop RPG where you stay in character the whole time as "socializing" by my definition of the word. Shooting the shit while the GM is in the bathroom though, that would count.

I don't see Armageddon as a game where you go to socialize.

I'm confused by this.

Why would you play Arm (or really any RPI Mud) instead of any H&S game if not to get involved in the social aspects of the game?  You don't need a text-based RPI Mud to skill up and explore a world all by your little lonesome.

Yeah, I pretty much play to socialize. 

[Harmless]

I think we all can agree that, ideally, the game should have all kinds of social interaction. By location: taverns, shady alleys, valleys nestled deep into dangerous hunting grounds, and pocketed away, hard-to-reach shanty-town spice-den hotspots; by race-race interaction: human to elf, elf to half-elf, dwarf to dwarf, magicker to mul. All need to be represented by players and plots; the rinth can be amazing or it can be totally fucking dead. Hunting can be a predictable experience where you know how the AI will respond or it can be a horrifying sudden encounter with a desert elf when you were most vulnerable after a fight with a Dujat. To make these interactions a regular part of the armageddon experience, all it takes are HAPPY players enjoying their character and their interactions, whatever they may be with: NPC or PC or vNPC entities. If enough players enjoy their characters' experiences, be they combative, creative, or survival struggles, before long, stories are coming to life everywhere.

Speaking only for myself, I enjoy my character most when:

1.) I "feel at home" controlling the PC; the skills the PC has are ones I use regularly to accomplish meaningful tasks for myself or others, they feel capable enough and their abilities are in line for what I had preferred and hoped for them (this includes skills and attributes), and they are responded to socially in a way that fits the theme I have in mind (this is where being able to wear clothing and have body modifications that fit my character's image are important)
2.) I have goals for my PC and know ways to pursue them, except for when the only way to pursue the goal is to "stay alive" and "wait." *ahem* Clan Promotion, case in point *ahem*
3.) I have at least one regular PC contact I can "report" to on a regular basis, one who has similar or shared goals and requires me in some way to live on for them for mutual benefit,
4.) A sentient enemy or competitor, be it a whole group of people who hate my PC for their race/class/profession or single driven nemesis who is actively trying to destroy me
5.) When what I am doing and involved in doesn't feel old and re-hashed: examples include mudsex scorned lover plots, pissed off tenants of apartments, mindless raider in the desert, etc.
6.) There is some degree of "fairness" to the competition at hand, i.e. I am not up against an impossible enemy or I don't have the odds stacked ridiculously against my own character.

So, if staff can think of ways where all of my points are met more often when I play then I'll probably enjoy my characters again, and therefore regularly play again.

[Marauder Moe]

I seems like asking a lot of staff to manage your feelings, goals, PC career, choice of enemies etc.  Aren't all those things under your control?