Player retention and you: brainstorming

[Rokal]

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

[Trillmendous]

Hey guys, I use to play this game a few months ago and just stopped so I believe my personal opinion on why I stopped playing would interest you guys.


One big reason is that the documentation isn't really that well written out (no offense). For Example, As a new Player I barely knew anything about the world of Armageddon including things my character should have know already and I felt the reason why is because the documentation on that matter wasn't really that informative(Again I apologize if I offend anyone with this comment)

The second thing I really didn't like.. I always kept getting pushed towards the T'zai Byn and it really didn't fit my characters background...  the clan that I did want to join because it fit my background pretty much kind of shrugged me off and just told me to join the Byn(they realized I was a true noob and to me that seems like they're letting ooc feelings get in the way of that decision).Bottom line, I feel like every clan should be open to true noobs and should just try their best to help that true noob get use to the game the same way the T'zai Byn does.

I hope to try the game out again because even though it was frustrating as a true noob, I did see the beauty in this game and would love to get pass the true noob stage. Also I realize the 2nd thing that frustrated me has nothing to do with the staff but more with the players.

edit: Here's an idea that might seem stupid to you guys but I'd like to say it anyways. I am not entirely sure how many staff are employed by Armageddon or how busy they are but I think if staff checked up on new players every now and then... and if they see that they're alone and are struggling to do anything productive maybe they should intervene somehow and guide that player towards becoming more productive. They could do this in the form of an npc... and they should probably warn the new player that they're a staff member oocily first so he/she doesn't think that he was interacting with another player.

[BadSkeelz]

Good post, Trillmendous.

"What you know" is a definite pitfall that can be tricky to address. You want to strike a balance of "informative docs" but not "too much documentation." I read the docs extensively before submitting my first PC, and yet I didn't know you're supposed to bow to templars in Allanak. Nor is "m'lady" an appropriate form of address. And I was playing in Allanak in the first place because the Tuluki docs of those days appeared overwritten and complicated for my tastes.

I recommend the forums or Helper Chat whenever you find yourself confronted with a gap in your knowledge of the game world, but that might not be a practical solution (like if you're in mid conversation).

What kind of information did you find yourself missing, Trillmendous?



As clans go, recruiting newbies largely comes down to what kind of players are currently running the clan. For combat clans, you might still get pushed towards the Byn first for in-game (And possibly OOC) training, which can happen to PCs played by vets or newbs. An elite military clan does not want to be taking in raw recruits when the Byn can do the job of training for them (and often more effectively), after all.  And even then, some clans are just not a good newbie fit. The militias are particularly not advised for newbies because at a relatively low rank you get a lot of coded power and roleplay responsibilities. As a clan leader, you can decline to promote the newbie of course, but then you run the risk of the newbie getting frustrated with his lack of progress. Generally speaking however, I think a newbie who can demonstrate good command of speech and emote code has a decent shot of getting in to any clan. Promotion will come if you can prove yourself a (relatively) mature player who's respectful of the docs and the gameworld.

I do think Staff are keeping an eye on newbies, as much as their time permits. As a militia officer, I vaguely recall being vectored in on a newbie who was 1) playing an elf 2) in a "fancy" tavern 3) who had a weapon drawn and 4) had two noble PCs getting panicked at him. After about a minute I figured the newbie was having trouble with inputting commands, so I just subdued him, dragged him to the nearest alley, and gave what OOC help I could.

[Trillmendous]

Good post, Trillmendous.

"What you know" is a definite pitfall that can be tricky to address. You want to strike a balance of "informative docs" but not "too much documentation." I read the docs extensively before submitting my first PC, and yet I didn't know you're supposed to bow to templars in Allanak. Nor is "m'lady" an appropriate form of address. And I was playing in Allanak in the first place because the Tuluki docs of those days appeared overwritten and complicated for my tastes.

I recommend the forums or Helper Chat whenever you find yourself confronted with a gap in your knowledge of the game world, but that might not be a practical solution (like if you're in mid conversation).

What kind of information did you find yourself missing, Trillmendous?



As clans go, recruiting newbies largely comes down to what kind of players are currently running the clan. For combat clans, you might still get pushed towards the Byn first for in-game (And possibly OOC) training, which can happen to PCs played by vets or newbs. An elite military clan does not want to be taking in raw recruits when the Byn can do the job of training for them (and often more effectively), after all.  And even then, some clans are just not a good newbie fit. The militias are particularly not advised for newbies because at a relatively low rank you get a lot of coded power and roleplay responsibilities. As a clan leader, you can decline to promote the newbie of course, but then you run the risk of the newbie getting frustrated with his lack of progress. Generally speaking however, I think a newbie who can demonstrate good command of speech and emote code has a decent shot of getting in to any clan. Promotion will come if you can prove yourself a (relatively) mature player who's respectful of the docs and the gameworld.

I do think Staff are keeping an eye on newbies, as much as their time permits. As a militia officer, I vaguely recall being vectored in on a newbie who was 1) playing an elf 2) in a "fancy" tavern 3) who had a weapon drawn and 4) had two noble PCs getting panicked at him. After about a minute I figured the newbie was having trouble with inputting commands, so I just subdued him, dragged him to the nearest alley, and gave what OOC help I could.

Pretty much the same things you didn't know about like how to interact with a noble or templar or even how to recognize them. I didn't know much about how the city of Tuluki was ran or it's history even after reading it's documentation.  I also didn't really know much about the creatures that existed in the world of armageddon. I'm also sure that theirs still alot of stuff I don't know even now that my future character probably should know. I also understand that this stuff is in the documentation but it's not as clear about most the stuff as it should be.

Thanks for you input on clan.s It was like you said a militia that rejected me.  I personally wouldn't have mind if I happened to be stuck at the basic role because of my experience. It would have been better than joining the T'zai Byn because like I said it didn't really fit my characters background. He was a zealot and a patriot and wanted to do nothing but serve Tuluk and it's nobles. I just think maybe making most clans a bit more friendly to true noobs wouldn't be a bad idea.


Just wondering but are  newbie friendly role calls a thing? I personally think my life would have been so much easier if I did a relatively simple role call instead of building a character from scratch.

[Lizzie]

This is probably a trivial thing but I think it'd contribute to the "cause" of player retention in its own very small way.

When you send a typo/idea/bug in-game, it obviously gets logged, and when the staff resolves it, it gets listed on the website: Lizzie (3).

But I don't know which three were resolved. I've sent hundreds of those over the years and remember one time they had resolved something like 18 of them in a single week. So I know a whole lot of them are probably years old, maybe duplicated from someone else who bugreped it before I got to it, etc.

What I'd like, is a simple note sent to my e-mail:

Lizzie: Your in-game idea report of September 22, 2010, was resolved.
>[Account: Lizzie sent] Give this Kadian NPC some clothes - he always reboots naked!

It's a sense of closure when I know a specific thing was addressed - even if I don't know what was done about it.

[Taven]

What I'd like, is a simple note sent to my e-mail:

Lizzie: Your in-game idea report of September 22, 2010, was resolved.
>[Account: Lizzie sent] Give this Kadian NPC some clothes - he always reboots naked!

It's a sense of closure when I know a specific thing was addressed - even if I don't know what was done about it.

This is an awesome idea. I would love to see something like this happen!

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

That would be nice, but it sounds like a lot of work. Would it be a lot of work, staff?

[Lizzie]

That would be nice, but it sounds like a lot of work. Would it be a lot of work, staff?

I don't know -how- it would work, even if it could work.

But if the code allowed it to work similarly to the request tool, it'd be "just" a matter of closing the report. The system would auto-generate the e-mail, just like when the staff closes out request tool requests now. No comment from the staff necessary but they could if they wanted to.

The trick (in my mind) would be to get the in-game report linked to the account/account e-mail/request system.

[WithSprinkles]

Does that NPC still do that sometimes? Not to derail hardcore here, but if he does at THIS point, screw it. Just make him, once in a while, streak through the bazaar going, "Iiiiiiii'm NAKED!"" or something. Or if you see him naked, load him up again with something like a trenchcoat, boots, a stuffed animal and a smile.

It's probably fixed, but heh, I'm being a goof.

[Dar]

Trillmendous actually gives an interesting idea. It is indeed a step away from RPI, but with some proper thinking, might still be okey, or perhaps even better then lack of that feature.


I am speaking of pre-made characters. Send out a call to playerbase to write up a shitton of basic chara apps and imbed them into chargen. So if you're karma 0 and are still eligible for 1st hour rez, you get the option of using one of these pre-made characters. You're explained carefully that they're premade and are given an extra option of 'adding/editing' biography/anything about the character. With clear explanation that the basic profiles were designed to be able to fit to as many possible clans, with widest possible options for gameplay, specifically to ease a new player integration.  This will allow the new player to get into the game 'immediately'. Yes, it'll be a pretty one-dimensional character, but let's be honest 90% of all new player characters are one-dimensional. And those who arent, became more interesting 'as they played and learned' not at chargen.

Potentially, it's possible to even use that website that did mismatch of sdesc/mdescs of chara description. I recall seeing it like 4-7 years ago? Dont know what happened to it. But I think it'd be less jarring if playerbase just wrote up dozens of their own and sent them in.

Another possible idea.

Allow players to register their location.  So say I'm playing in the labyrinth. I have the option of going "register labyrinth". Then at chargen (or any time, I guess, it's debatable), prior to chara creation, an account can see Labyrinth:1 player registered. Allanak: 20 players registered, etc.  If my character dies, code could unregister me. If my character moves (and if I care enough), I can 'reregister' myself to whatever new locale I am currently calling my stable place of habitation. If I'm a rogue and I'm concerned enough about how hidden I am, I simply do not register and that's that.

It'll help people who 'prefer' not to play in areas that are devoid of people. And it wont stop people who are experienced in starting in empty areas and then making them awesome enough to entice other recently deaded accounts from chargenning into that area.

[whitt]

So a few ideas from the only other RPI I ever played at (SoI) that I think helped retain players.

1) A mentor flag.  If you set your mentor flag, you would get a system notification that (new player) A tall, dark, handsome fella has entered the world at the Battered Shield.  This would let folks who had their mentor flag set and weren't busy with something else know that they might want to head to the Battered Shield to help this new PC figure out the game world.  The caveat was always there that you should be playing a character the has a reason to help new players and you shouldn't abuse it or your flag would be set to off permanently.  The new player likely has no idea why a short time after commencing a couple folks showed up where they were, they just didn't commence in an empty inn with no idea where to go or what to do.

2) Player modified room edits.  These came pretty late in SoI's lifetime, but players could ask for and be approved to make on the fly edits to a room's description.  Are you and three of your friends out on the Flats digging for salt for a few days / weeks.  Enter a quick room desc change that shows someone was here via tweaking the existing description to show several holes dug in the sand, the smoldering remains of a campfire, and some beetle droppings.  Killed a Mek?  Leave the bones and blood.  If it was something that might have a permanent change effect, submit your new room desc via the request tool and it will either be approved or disapproved, but it was a neat add that let trusted folks occasionally leave a footprint on the world.  Again, abuse would result in the loss of this coded ability and it was generally reserved for PC leaders of groups to further limit the potential for abuse.  Seldom did these changes last past the next boot cycle.

3) Let folks app in Apprentice "x" and Journeyman "x" as a guild choice.  Rather than process skill bumps adding to staff workload, makes this karma based guilds that automatically set your starting guild skill at the appropriate skill level.  Have 1 karma?  You can app in as an Apprentice Merchant.  No staff work needed.  At 3 karma, you can app in as a Journeyman Assassin.  Might eliminate the whole workload around skill bumps, in fact.  Not sure if there is a coded limiter to how many guild choices that would prevent this.

Anyway, the things above definitely kept me playing SoI to the point that I only came over here when the game died.

[solera]

They all sound good. If there are no elves around, there is arrange for no.2

[Majikal]

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

[seidhr]

Just wondering but are  newbie friendly role calls a thing? I personally think my life would have been so much easier if I did a relatively simple role call instead of building a character from scratch.

I'm not sure if you're asking what I think you're asking, but I do think the idea of spelling out that a given rolecall is suitable for newer players has merit.  (But I don't think you're asking about role calls in the terms that we refer to them as role calls?)  Maybe you could expand a bit on what you mean?

(stuff about getting an email when idea/bug/typos get resolved)

The entire system for that is pretty basic, there's so much other stuff with more "oomph" out there waiting for upgrades.  Plus, the signal to noise ratio on bug/idea/typo submissions is pretty bad - a lot of duplicates, things that aren't really bugs, really poorly thought out ideas, truncated submissions (again all commands to the game have a character limit), etc.

2) Player modified room edits.  These came pretty late in SoI's lifetime, but players could ask for and be approved to make on the fly edits to a room's description.  Are you and three of your friends out on the Flats digging for salt for a few days / weeks.  Enter a quick room desc change that shows someone was here via tweaking the existing description to show several holes dug in the sand, the smoldering remains of a campfire, and some beetle droppings.  Killed a Mek?  Leave the bones and blood.  If it was something that might have a permanent change effect, submit your new room desc via the request tool and it will either be approved or disapproved, but it was a neat add that let trusted folks occasionally leave a footprint on the world.  Again, abuse would result in the loss of this coded ability and it was generally reserved for PC leaders of groups to further limit the potential for abuse.  Seldom did these changes last past the next boot cycle.

Tdescs for rooms would be cool.  You can already do this to some extent with the arrange command, just drop a rock and include it in the desc somehow.  Most people do this responsibly.  A few people don't.

(stuff about hating to communicate with staff it's like a kick in the gut, I tell ya...and those account notes suck!)

Hey look - I'm on staff, an Admin even, and I have some of those old account notes that are... shall we say, less than pristine.  If you need further evidence that "we" (staff) are capable of looking past old account notes to give someone another shot, I don't know what to tell you.

With regard to other comments about account notes - I think like any system, this one has its pros and cons.  You've pointed out some of the cons, but an in-game method of tracking what is going on with players and PCs is a big pro, too.  If we set a note on someone's ACCOUNT that is negative, they should get an e-mail about it.  If we set a note on someone's PC that is negative, we don't typically send an e-mail.

(stuff about simplifying the application process and starting out for newbies)

This is just a really tough one for a number of reasons.  I'd say that a good 75% of the newbie apps we get require HEAVY revisions to even get them into the game.  We see a lot of Legolas-wannabes, bearded dwarves who forge mithril, seafaring pirates, and the occasional:

sdesc:  the demonic ninja
mdesc:  This man is a demon who has come from other worlds to devour the souls of his enemies.  He will crush and oppress all those who stand in his way....(all on one line, repeated about eleven times because they can't figure out how to use the text editor, heh)

As a matter of course, we do help newbies with edits during the application process a lot - we do a lot of fixing and editing to get them to a "ready to ship" status so they will be viable in the game world.  Sometimes we simply HAVE to reject people because they do something like:
a) Pick a totally inappropriate name - this isn't something we can change, sadly.
b) Show that they completely do not understand what they are getting into and should probably read some documentation before jumping in - a bearded dwarven fisherman with a pet dragon, demonic warriors, etc.
c) It's not clear that this person can speak or write English, at all.

[Dresan]

I could have missed it but no one is really saying you shouldn't have account notes.

Yes, you should have them, staff needs them to help them monitor players and behavior. I am just saying you should stop showing them to people. Instead if and when people ask for constructive criticism on their RP  (mostly during karma review I reckon) then these notes can be reviewed privately by staff, along with other feedback and then a more helpful conversation with the player can take place. Something that is lost by just showing these account notes to people as is basically.

Emails on negative account notes can remain as is since its most likely done to stop unwanted behavior in the game.

As an added benefit, it will reduce the work since you don't have to take the time to gather and clean up those notes anymore.  

[Lizzie]

(stuff about getting an email when idea/bug/typos get resolved)

The entire system for that is pretty basic, there's so much other stuff with more "oomph" out there waiting for upgrades.  Plus, the signal to noise ratio on bug/idea/typo submissions is pretty bad - a lot of duplicates, things that aren't really bugs, really poorly thought out ideas, truncated submissions (again all commands to the game have a character limit), etc.

[snip]

With regard to other comments about account notes - I think like any system, this one has its pros and cons.  You've pointed out some of the cons, but an in-game method of tracking what is going on with players and PCs is a big pro, too.  If we set a note on someone's ACCOUNT that is negative, they should get an e-mail about it.  If we set a note on someone's PC that is negative, we don't typically send an e-mail.

1. Thanks for your input. I guess it would be a lot more spam if every idea/bug/typo closed out with an e-mail to the person who sent it. It's still on my "want" list even though I accept it probably won't ever get implemented.

2. This part about the negative notes on accounts vs. characters explains a lot. I've only received one notification about a bad -account- comment, and yet my overall requested account notes showed a number of less-than-pleasant comments from staff.  Looking back, I'm pretty sure all the other ones were just comments about specific characters. This would be pretty useful information to be included in the account notes helpfile. I don't know if anyone else ever knew that one type got an e-mail and the other did not, intentionally.

[Adhira]

Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

[Lizzie]

Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

I wouldn't feel doomed, it's really not that big a deal (at least I don't think it is).  If it goes into my pfile but no one thinks it's important enough to address with me directly, then I'll just assume exactly that: that it wasn't important enough to address with me directly.  I've only asked for account notes twice, I believe, and the second time was actually just hoping for a karma review, before you made it a separate request type. Now that we can do karma reviews, I probably won't have any burning need to request my account notes again.

I'm not one who really gives a damn about transparency anyway. Sometimes - it's better not to know

[Norcal]

I don't think you are doomed at all.

I had no idea about the different types of notes or how they are handled.

A simple way to handle both would be to simply delete them -all- after a period of time, if the player has not shown repeat behavior.  If  the player has shown the same behavior, keep the notes.  I reckon it's easier for everyone, and it would possibly please those who see no need for notes at all.

[Dresan]

Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

I won't lie to you. Your reasoning is sound and you are right, this is a possibility. However, I think its a bit moot because regardless of whether you show those account notes or not there are people out there who believe that members of the staff are out there to get them and only them, and plot to ruin their fun anyways. I feel account notes just makes it worse regardless, because its not even about the negative notes. People have also complained about not getting enough comments on their character. Again this is something that has been common across this game and another game. If you make a lot of notes, some positive, some negative, the negative ones will still stand out. If don't make any notes, some players will think you are ignoring them.

This is why I suggested, that instead of showing those account notes, which can be taken out of context, they are instead reviewed by a staff member upon request. That staff member can then also get feedback from the other staff, and then have an honest conversation with that player on aspects they found that they might want to improve on. This way, you remain transparent, because anything on those account notes that stands out will still be discuss in a more positive environment, but you never risk whatever is in those notes to be taken out of context.  In short, you should just stick to a more in-depth karma review for those that request it.

Again, more serious negative account notes should continue to be discussed immediately through email as you have been doing. And as an added benefit you do less work by not having to prepare those notes, but hopefully build a better and more positive relationship with players by getting a chance to communicate with them more positively about ways they can improve (again only if they ask).

[whitt]

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

Probably, but this Arm, so... appropriate?  

That said, I think what players really crave and that generates karma reviews and account notes request is feedback.  A lot of the time, playing any RPI is like acting to an empty theatre.  You don't know if you're doing well, where you need to improve, or if something has completely jumped off the tracks.  So they request that feedback via the above, not knowing how else to gauge the producers' reaction to the role(s) they've played over the last six months.  Like an actor reading the stage notes on a performance, that feedback is usually terse, primarily because it's not meant to be the yardstick by which performance in a role is judged.  It's spur of the moment note taking.

The problem arises in that there is no audience to read the applause from.  So I'd suggest that short of staff and/or players sending their fellow players more kudos when they see something they like?  You're right.  Folks will continue to try to get that feedback anyway they can and in this case use the wrong measuring stick.

[Armaddict]

...I see no merit behind keeping them hidden altogether.  I've been able to request them as long as I've been here, even back when they had had to manually 'redact' the names involved.  I'm not sure what is gained by that.

However...I'm also in agreement that this is not a big deal.  I already know how they're used, and even in my 'prime' of negative account notes, I still had no troubles getting things aside from once when it was through a particular staffer.  Another staffer vouched for my recent performance, I got the role anyway.  Sooo...my only reason for talking about it was just to gripe about how some of the negative notes shouldn't have been there in the first place, really.  Out of context.

Really, a lot of this is based around veteran retention more than newbie retention.  A lot of these ideas, a newbie won't even start to wrap their head around in the beginning, I think.  I think the easiest part to focus on is getting newbies in game and knowing things as quickly as possible so they can get comfortable and sink in.  After that, you can try to tackle some of these deep-seated things that seem to have people in a dither.  Those are things where some players are essentially asking for things that either change the game dynamic a great deal, or give the power to alter the game in more-permanent-than-not-permanent ways.

[Inks]

EDIT: Eh, what I posted doesn't really matter.

[Narf]

Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

I remember staff used to let people get voluntarily banned from the game during midterms or the like.

You could always offer the same option for account notes? For people that just can't resist the urge to make account note requests but feel they're too delicate to see them...

That sounds weird when I actually type it out. Is that really what people are asking for?

[Kankfly]

I like seeing my account notes 'cos I'm curious to see what staff wrote about my weirdo characters.