50 Shades of Hate

[Taven]

In the incredibly long "A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times" thread, there were a couple posts about the different types of hate. Jave made a great post on the nuances of hate and discrimination, and how nothing is black and white. There are, as it were, shades of grey. However, Rokal's concern is that hate has swung too far the other way, avoiding the middle ground.

Some of the hate and discrimination that happen in Zalanthas:

• Hate/Fear of Magick (gemmers vs rogues)
• Hate/Dislike of a certain race (Elves, breeds, dwarves, or humans if you're a non-human race)
• Hate/Dislike of certain cultural groups ("Nakki, rinthi, stormers, luirsians, tuluki, tribals)

So, I wanted to ask you guys all the following:

• What's your impression on the status of hate/fear? (Too little, too much, just right?)
• How do your PCs typically deal with the exceptions of magick and racial fear or hate? (remember, don't discuss current PCs)
• What are ways you could see more of a greyscale being introduced into how people react?

Obviously, how these feelings manifest will be different in different areas (a Nakki probably won't react the same way to a gemmer that a Tuluki would), but I'm still curious on people's thoughts and approaches.

[Inks]

I feel there could be more hate and distrust, but hate and distrust that isn't expressed through >kill RP.

Rogues can generally play in 2 non iso places, I feel gemmed pcs trade off freedom for safety and a place to train to max and never being able to hide what they are. I feel it is good RP for gemmed to be ostracized. The AoD and Templars should make more use of them, however, even press ganging unwilling gemmed. This would create things for gemmed to do and boost the power of the AoD codedly without NPCs and Imm intervention.

Templars could even be paid to assign gemmed to a noble house, on a renewable contract. This would create an arms race for nobles to have the best mage working for them who can support their goals. (probably 1 per house but it would be in addition to the aide cap). It would also create magickal rivalries between house mages if done properly, which it turn would create work for pc assassins and thugs perhaps.

Just throwing some ideas out there for those gemmed players who don't have anything to do. Personally the more hate the better ICly.

I feel dwarves could be the brunt of more hate, but they also should have more clans they can join, they were allowed in the Legions and as has been said before, they have maybe 2 clans in Allanak they can join.

I feel the elf situation will improve once the promised celf clan is released, even if it was Patuk's clan. It was very interesting but extremely elfy still, Kudos to you Patuk.

Now that Tuluk has closed I feel there is more hate for tribals thank god, and people don't see a non-descript tribal accent as "exotic".

TL; DR: I feel we need more hate for but also more options for elves, gemmed and dwarves.

[Fujikoma]

My PCs these days tend to start off hating something, whether humans, stumps, Nakkis, Kurac, just, there's something they don't like AT ALL. But inevitably that all falls to pieces because I'm not a hateful person, grudging aliances are formed, and eventually, they realize they're being unreasonable.

Ways to express hate without just typing kill dude:
Paranoia (all elves are bad and that one is scheming against me, I better not lower my guard)
Superiority (HAH! That roundear thinks he's so smart, but I just delivered him a clever left-handed compliment while snagging his rapier)
Bar brawl (I'll plant a nice, intimate fist on that stump's lips the next word he says)
Sabotage (I'll just tell everyone Amos is a fruit-fecker)
Theft (Grandma's bastard sword? Mine now, dickweed)
Emote (emo gives ~guy a soft snarl, as he looks over)
Insults (You're too slow, short, and stupid for me to consider relations with you, human)

Please note that while these suffice, escalation may occur, in the event of escalation, you are screwed if you are the player of a c-elf because technically you're not supposed to go anywhere so you're kind of trapped. I prefer not to escalate things unless the other party is being particularly pesky and over-doing it. Express your hate and be done with it, no need to go to knives. Remember there's a player on the other end, a character with a story, and there's likely a bazillion virtual people who've pissed in your ale today. Once things reach the level of threats or death, it all goes out the window. Most people do not want to feel like they are throwing away their character for repping the world how it should be, and so will naturally avoid making that mistake again, and there goes your conflict.

[whitt]

So, I wanted to ask you guys all the following:

• What's your impression on the status of hate/fear? (Too little, too much, just right?)
• How do your PCs typically deal with the exceptions of magick and racial fear or hate? (remember, don't discuss current PCs)
• What are ways you could see more of a greyscale being introduced into how people react?

From the hate side - I think the hate machine only works for elves vs humans.
This is pretty easy to manage, because the elves actually are trying to screw everyone over and codedly -can- screw them over.  So yes, very easy to blame the elves and PCs do a fine job of this.  Likewise with elves hating everyone, because... well, everyone is usually kicking them.  I'd bet if there was one thing folks can agree on, it's that if you're not playing an elf or a breed that prefers their elven side?  You pretty much hate elves.  Even if you are an elf-loving breed or an elf?  You probably hate most of the other elves too.  So yay.  Elf Hate is fine.

Few really -hate- breeds.  Sometimes it's fun to kick the breeds during a down-cycle, but eventually it boils down to the breed (probably) didn't do anything wrong and is probably pretty helpful until they breed out.  So yeah... you hate the breeds for awhile, but there's nothing there to prolong that hate.  So they win, because a useful breed pc is better than any three useless human PCs and hey... at least they're not a filthy elf.  

Dwarves might as well be humans, the way they are treated.  An' half-giants.... well... everyone loves half-giants amirite?

So racial social ladder as it plays out IG?  (move humans to the top if you're in a role where having a human actually means something (eg AoD)
Half-giant
Dwarf/Human
Breed
Elf

On the magicker side... it's been mentioned more than a few times in other threads.  The hatred can be forced into play, but much like the breeds above, the game doesn't bear it out.  The magickers that are hated are the people that would be hated no matter their guild was because they're doing things that hurt the city/travelers/whatever.  Inside the walls of the city? There is nothing to reinforce that hate.  Magickers can be blamed for things, but they can't actually do any of the things that they are blamed for.   The fear fades right along with this realization.  Even if the Magicker could wave their hand and turn you to ash.  If they do, they're dead.  They're not going to.  So where's the fear?  If, you saw someone piss off a Magicker in the Gaj and that Magicker vaporized the offender down to their boots and none of the militia dared to try and arrest them?  Sure.  I'd fear that.  A lot!  But truth is most folks know this isn't how it works.  As soon as you know that?  The OOC driver for the IC fear is mostly gone and you're left choosing to roleplay as you see fit.  Adding to this is the fact that nothing bad (or good) happens to those who are around magickers for long periods of time.  Anything that does happen is meant to happen and happens exactly as it is meant to happen.  Uncertainty breeds fear.  Bring some of that into play?  And the fear would come right along with it.

Dealing with the "special snowflakes" I'd have my characters treat them just as outcast as who ever it was they were associating with.  That's an easy one.

Greyscale - Put solid documentation together about what is an acceptable response.  Right now the perception is that gemmed for example are owned by Oash and the Templars.  That's it, they might as well be Lepers to anyone else.  Help the players understand by giving examples of how different behaviors might play out.  When would an elf pal up with a Templar?  When would a gemmed breed be welcomed to travel with the Byn?  Those sorts of guidance keeps players from having to wonder if they're being too over the line or if they need to get he canon-hammer out and smite another player down for something they think is too far outside the norm.

[Refugee]

I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

[Old Kank]

I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.

I agree with this sentiment, but I think a big part of Arm is just text-based theater, and nuance is very hard to do, while exaggeration is relatively easy.  If your character goes around hating on gemmers, but then gets his hand chopped off and runs to the Vivaduan temple to have it healed back to normal... is he a nuanced character, or just a bad RP'er who dropped IC pretenses to suit the player's desires?  Only that player can say for certain how deep the character's convictions run.

I think the whole hate conversation - especially as it pertains to mages - is actually a distraction from something else: A lack of functional, three-dimensional enemies and fresh objectives left in the setting.  The hatecycle is just low-hanging fruit and misdirected energy.

This is a game.  People play it to have fun, and as a general rule, people don't like to feel hated, or worse, like a pariah.  The trick should be to make people feel persecuted, or subjugated, but leave them an enjoyable outlet.  If being hated is the prime aspect of the role, of course people aren't going to enjoy it.  Make the "hate" the balance to a meaty role, and I don't think there will be a problem.

[Rokal]

My PCs these days tend to start off hating something, whether humans, stumps, Nakkis, Kurac, just, there's something they don't like AT ALL. But inevitably that all falls to pieces because I'm not a hateful person, grudging aliances are formed, and eventually, they realize they're being unreasonable.

Ways to express hate without just typing kill dude:
Paranoia (all elves are bad and that one is scheming against me, I better not lower my guard)
Superiority (HAH! That roundear thinks he's so smart, but I just delivered him a clever left-handed compliment while snagging his rapier)
Bar brawl (I'll plant a nice, intimate fist on that stump's lips the next word he says)
Sabotage (I'll just tell everyone Amos is a fruit-fecker)
Theft (Grandma's bastard sword? Mine now, dickweed)
Emote (emo gives ~guy a soft snarl, as he looks over)
Insults (You're too slow, short, and stupid for me to consider relations with you, human)

Please note that while these suffice, escalation may occur, in the event of escalation, you are screwed if you are the player of a c-elf because technically you're not supposed to go anywhere so you're kind of trapped. I prefer not to escalate things unless the other party is being particularly pesky and over-doing it. Express your hate and be done with it, no need to go to knives. Remember there's a player on the other end, a character with a story, and there's likely a bazillion virtual people who've pissed in your ale today. Once things reach the level of threats or death, it all goes out the window. Most people do not want to feel like they are throwing away their character for repping the world how it should be, and so will naturally avoid making that mistake again, and there goes your conflict.

the bolded part:
This especially. I've seen things go from zero, with nothing wrong, or little wrong, to escalate all up to 11 with threats of death coming out of no where! Or actually being attacked, out of no where!

Escalation towards such things can happen, but taking it from zero to eleven in one encounter just.. makes things unfun.

I'd add more, but taven's already pointed out my post on another topic about my thoughts on the matter.
On how my PCs react to things:
For my PCs. It depends on the character, even if they have a simple background - i think. How povery striken was this mundane dude before? Would they have been desperate enough to do this, this, and that? Are the proud of it? do they hide it? ect.
All of that ties in to what they hate, or dislike.
heres an example:
If i'd ever play a gemmer, I'd not play them as some oddity - if anything. I'd play them as a typical person thrust into a very odd situation. While from character to character acclimation might happen at different paces, but they grew up as a typical mundane up until manifesting. I think its very, very very important to play this part of a gemmer - perhaps the gemmer is envious of the mundanes, and through that kind of sees themselves trying to interact with them or get even minor acceptance from them. Or maybe the gemmer has grown to hate everything - themselves, the mundanes. Theres a lot of freedom for that and while the magick is a -big- part of a gemmer, its not, the sole, key point of it, rather, its how the character -lives with it- and brings that magick into the world.

A young man who wanted nothing more then to join kadius and become a great tailor, had hopes and dreams, then gets his dreams shattered by manifesting in public, somehow and now he is a gemmer of so and so temple. He has lost everything he had worked for - friends, family, anything. They mean nothing now as they most likely want nothing to do with him. Thus he grows to ... whatever. Despite kadius. Envy tailors. Anything. These are -normal people- that are thrust into something they didnt' want or chose to have.

The same process works for any kind of concept - not just magick. You can consider player characters quite above the average person in the world. Their backstory in a way (in my view) is what sets them apart from the rest and sets them 'above the average'.. Im not saying PCs are epic heros of the world. But they're just .. better then your average nameless grebber.

Generally, when i start a new character, I have a brief background with various experiences and such that sets a tone for the character, but otherwise leave them mostly as a sort of blank slate - and let the rp guide the path. A human will hate on elves just as much as the average human would, but if a particular elf gives them reason to trust him/her.. and doesn't screw my PC over. Whats wrong with trusting them they might not openly say that. I like to play the first few weeks, or maybe month of a character as them shaping into what 'sets them above' or beyond the average at times too. Let the world/interaction shape them.

thus 'cause of that I love Rp before pk, and I try to escalate things slowly, rather then quickly.

[Delirium]

I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.

I agree with this sentiment, but I think a big part of Arm is just text-based theater, and nuance is very hard to do, while exaggeration is relatively easy.  If your character goes around hating on gemmers, but then gets his hand chopped off and runs to the Vivaduan temple to have it healed back to normal... is he a nuanced character, or just a bad RP'er who dropped IC pretenses to suit the player's desires?  Only that player can say for certain how deep the character's convictions run.

I think the whole hate conversation - especially as it pertains to mages - is actually a distraction from something else: A lack of functional, three-dimensional enemies and fresh objectives left in the setting.  The hatecycle is just low-hanging fruit and misdirected energy.

This is a game.  People play it to have fun, and as a general rule, people don't like to feel hated, or worse, like a pariah.  The trick should be to make people feel persecuted, or subjugated, but leave them an enjoyable outlet.  If being hated is the prime aspect of the role, of course people aren't going to enjoy it.  Make the "hate" the balance to a meaty role, and I don't think there will be a problem.

I just want to hire this person to post on my behalf in the future. Yes, everything quoted here.

[In Dreams]

I like to think I start my characters out according to the documentation says they'd be in the world mixed with their own personality, but my character isn't a document. They're a living, breathing person. They learn and grow in ways much bigger than their skills.

If experiences bring a PC to somehow overcome their resistances and trust or befriend a gemmer/elf/dwarf/foreigner/whatever, I can't force unconditional hate down their throat forever. What others see when they walk in and a PC's talking to that gemmer/elf/dwarf/foreigner/whatever might be, to them, against the docs, but really it may be a relationship or even an entirely different belief structure a PC's developed into over IC years through what is sometimes a very long-lived life. In fact frowning upon it may even be very much welcomed IC - but in the same breath I would encourage you not to judge OOC.

[Barzalene]

I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

[Alesan]

I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

[Jihelu]

I just hate everyone.

[Jave]

I disagree that nuance is hard to do in Armageddon. Our coders have invested a lot of energy into facilitating it with things like hemote, think, feel, and biographies. The more those are employed, the more that staff and particularly observant player characters are able to notice the shades of grey the player is painting with.

[sleepyhead]

Here are my thoughts on the gemmed. I don't believe they should be constantly ridiculed and tormented like breeds, even though that's how some people play it. In some senses they're like elves in that they get blamed for all sorts of things, but you have to walk a line because that elf's tribe might gang up on you later and shank you (you know, supposedly) or that 'gicker might curse you and your entire bloodline. 'Gickers are more feared than elves, though, so that worry that they're going to turn on you is, or should perhaps be, much more pronounced.

This isn't perhaps so much supported by the documentation, but it's always worked for my characters to treat the gemmed almost like they're outside the social order in a way, as members of a completely different class, made up entirely of outcasts. I feel like gemmers are the people you wish you never had to see or interact with. You wish they'd stay away from you so you could pretend they're not there. You would rather live a life without having to think about or interact with them at all. But you can't. So you stand up and move when they show up. You feel a prickling discomfort when you're forced to be around them. You're worried they're going to do something horrible to you at any given time.

But you know those magickers that you'd rather ignore are useful. The templarate keeps them around and uses them. You know that even though they're feared and shunned, a gemmer is probably considered to be worth more than you by the templarate. While they're discouraged from acting above their station, you probably also don't want to cause enough trouble that the templarate sees you as being a danger to their resources. So instead you scowl and move to the end of the bar and avoid eye contact. Why can't they just stay in their own quarter?

[BadSkeelz]

I disagree that nuance is hard to do in Armageddon. Our coders have invested a lot of energy into facilitating it with things like hemote, think, feel, and biographies. The more those are employed, the more that staff and particularly observant player characters are able to notice the shades of grey the player is painting with.

Agreed. If I can play nuanced characters capable of degrees of hate, prejudice, and compartmentalization (and not the Khornate Disciple I play on the GDB), you can too!

[Delirium]

I disagree that nuance is hard to do in Armageddon. Our coders have invested a lot of energy into facilitating it with things like hemote, think, feel, and biographies. The more those are employed, the more that staff and particularly observant player characters are able to notice the shades of grey the player is painting with.

Nuance is definitely possible to do, and I love seeing it, but by and large I tend to see "exaggerations" - either because that's what is easier, or that's what people are used to portraying in roleplay environments, or that's the current level of roleplay ability they possess. Should we strive for nuance? Absolutely. Expect it? Mmmmm...

I think we need to paint our world in such a way to allow for the "entry level" roleplay you are going to see from people who are just beginning to discover how awesome Armageddon is, so that they don't seem so out of place while they are learning to be the awesome, nuanced roleplayers they will grow up to be.

That means helping them in whatever way we can to ensure that the coded reality of the world enforces the roleplay aspect of the world. It is not always easy to grasp the idea of seeing the world as a living reality, as opposed to expecting them to constantly sacrifice coded gain because they have no reason not to.

For example, if you want people to play shunned mages, make the role of "shunned mage" an out-of-character enjoyable role as much as possible.

The world is a mundane's oyster when it comes to plots an interaction, for a gemmed mage they often have to go through extreme periods of isolation or give up juicy-sounding plots just to stay true to their role. A lot of players will decide instead to find a way to circumvent that and rationalize a way to participate in whatever they're missing out on, which leads to silly-feeling situations. Give them other options that are just as fun but are true to the way the role is intended to be played, and you have people who want to stay the course not just out of their ability and desire to roleplay correctly, but because it's genuinely fun to do so.

I'm not sure I explained that right, but at least I gave it a shot?

[Old Kank]

We have the tools to do nuance, no argument.  But using those tools to portray a constant stream of consciousness that gradually leads from hate to tolerance?  That requires vision, patience, and attention to detail.  Describing, through thoughts and emotes, what ultimately amounts to a gut decision?  That's tricky.  Doing all of that in such a way that the casual observer can say, "Yeah, okay, that's reaching a reasonable conclusion, and isn't a cheesy, easy out?"  That's really the tough part, in my opinion.  Trying to account for what your audience knows and expects and subtly shifting the narrative?

My hats off to you if you think it's easy.  Hell, I've had staff question my character's motives, and even after explaining in plain English narrative how decisions were reached, I've still been met with suspicion.

[Iiyola]

I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

All of this.

[Taven]

From the hate side - I think the hate machine only works for elves vs humans.
This is pretty easy to manage, because the elves actually are trying to screw everyone over and codedly -can- screw them over.  So yes, very easy to blame the elves and PCs do a fine job of this.  Likewise with elves hating everyone, because... well, everyone is usually kicking them.  I'd bet if there was one thing folks can agree on, it's that if you're not playing an elf or a breed that prefers their elven side?  You pretty much hate elves.  Even if you are an elf-loving breed or an elf?  You probably hate most of the other elves too.  So yay.  Elf Hate is fine.

Few really -hate- breeds.  Sometimes it's fun to kick the breeds during a down-cycle, but eventually it boils down to the breed (probably) didn't do anything wrong and is probably pretty helpful until they breed out.  So yeah... you hate the breeds for awhile, but there's nothing there to prolong that hate.  So they win, because a useful breed pc is better than any three useless human PCs and hey... at least they're not a filthy elf.

I actually disagree with your assessment. If you look at Zalanthas from a horrifically racist perspective (which is how it is for fantasy races), then while we can all agree that elves are and should be hated, I'd argue that breeds also pose a threat. Breeds are the result of the intermingling of elves and humans. I would imagine a good chunk of characters would find that idea completely repulsive. The biggest danger of breeds is that they can pretend to be what they're not, threatening the integrity of humans. Breeds aren't hated for what they've done (though they can be), but for what they ARE. They can't ever get rid of the taint of their elven blood, it lingers always with them. They're discriminated against by not only the Noble Houses, but also by the GMH (excepting Kurac). Kadius won't touch them, Salarr won't touch them.

Even in places that breeds are allowed (Kurac and the Byn as our examples), they're limited by what they can accomplish. It might be acceptable to, say, have a breed going out on contracts and risking life and limb, or shoveling shit. Heck, it might even be okay to have a breed commanding other soldiers. But there's still racism, because breeds are never, ever going to be given full powers and influence. Staff can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a breed would ever gain an "officer" position like Lieutenant. Upper-tier positions are humans-only, because at the end of the day, a half-elf is still just a dirty breed.

The only exception to these rules would be some Tuluki clans, but that's quite a moot point now.

[Beethoven]

Yes, the thing about breeds is that they're a reminder that elves and humans sometimes get it on, and that is utterly disgusting for most humans AND elves. They're unwanted by everyone.

My PCs usually hate breeds more than elves. Elves are dirty thieves, but they have their own little cliques and as long as they stay over there and don't fuck with the humans, okay. (Not that you would ever trust an elf not to fuck with the humans!) Whereas when it comes to breeds, their mere existence is offensive. They should not exist at all.

[AdamBlue]

I'm probably awful, as I tend to play characters that while bias at first, will ultimately see the inherent use of various different types and races of people, and that generally tend to not care about if they're an elf or not, but if they're useful or pleasant.

[Jihelu]

Sadly my characters usually ration out things to the point where they really just don't care.
I'm living in a world where famine and dying over water is common.
I can hate elves and dwarves when I have 10k in the bank.
But for now.
I'll pretend I care.

[Taven]

I'm saddened by the way outsiders and especially Tulukis are welcomed and befriended and even protected in Nak.  I wish they didn't feel safe and untouchable.  I do what I can to change that, but it really feels sort of like pissing into the wind... and I don't think it should.  They should be afraid to walk the streets, and instead they act as if they own the place, and can flaunt Nakki customs with impunity, which I find really unrealistic.  I'd like to see it go back to where they covered their inks and were wary to bring attention to their accent.

I don't seem to see any more or less gemmed acceptance than I ever did.  Some people act like they're the same as everyone and some people play as if they're scary or filthy.  Gemmed that I see are usually playing as I understand the docs.

One thing I keep hearing about recently is how pof elves and breeds are playing as if they are surprised to be treated in an unpleasant manner.  They would've been treated this way all their lives and would not expect anything else, I feel.  If anyone treated them well, I think they'd become very wary and wonder what that person is up to!

This!

The other side of that is that this isn't ubiquitous, but the places where it happens most are the most visible places for it to happen.

I think we all need to take responsibility with this. If we're the outsider, let's remember to act that way. If we're the crowd, let's not be so accepting. That doesn't mean we need to tear every undesirable limb from limb, but we could temper the nice a little.

[Quoted Refugee's original post in support]

All of this.

There's a lot of players chiming in on this with the same thoughts and feelings on this one.


Here's a general brainstorming session for how to show some good ol' Tuluki hate:

• Talk at length, in vivid detail, about the most recent Tuluki killed (in the arena/in the bug pit/in the cuddler/by a vicious mob)
• Discuss historical victories where Allanak smashed the shit out of Tuluk
• Talk loudly about how their tattoos mark them as a slave to a city that tried to do horrible things (murder? enslave?) its people
• Speculate that the Tuluki in question MUST be a spy, because why else would they have their tattoos showing?
• Just beat the shit out of them should they be in a brawl-enabled area
• Constantly mock how they talk with their crude northern accent, act impressed that they can speak at all
• Introduce them to as many gemmed as possible
• Compare Tuluki culture (which allows for theft and murder) to that of elven culture
• Make a point of always closing and checking your packs when they're in the area
• Start a new Gaj game--Who can land the most hits on the Tuluki?
• Say everything more slowly to them, as if not sure they will understand it
• Spread vicious rumors about them

These are all non-lethal ways to introduce some scorn and hate into the game, though you could certainly ramp it up with attempted assassinations and the like. You can likely come up with your own ways to hate on Tuluki. Also remember that your Tuluki hate meter doesn't need to be 100% all the time. Toss out a few insults, let something else take your attention. Let how they react determine your response. Did you pick on them about showing off those tats, and they covered them? Well, they might be a filthy northerner, but at least they did something about it. You can lay off awhile, and pick on them for something else later. Maybe even buy a drink as a reward, like some sort of pet you've trained to do a particularly clever trick.

Of course, further nuances can also be developed with time, especially if the Tuluki is someone you have to interact with on a regular basis. If you come to care about a Tuluki, why not make that a point of interest? You could have a plot revolving around trying to get them to burn off or remove their tattoos, and try to get official Nakki citizen status from a templar.

[Barzalene]

I'm probably awful, as I tend to play characters that while bias at first, will ultimately see the inherent use of various different types and races of people, and that generally tend to not care about if they're an elf or not, but if they're useful or pleasant.

I was thinking about this today! Seriously. At length. I came up with a plan for how to handle the useful breed (or other undesirable in some cases.) I can't tell you, cause then you'd know who I play. But I think if you're like me and you find it hard to be rude/mean/offensive to people who are useful or just too damn pleasant it's good to think about it ahead of time. What can I do that takes into a account the culture of the world and unique people and relationships? It doesn't have to be the same solution for everyone, anything is better than ignoring one situation or the other.

[Taven]

I'm probably awful, as I tend to play characters that while bias at first, will ultimately see the inherent use of various different types and races of people, and that generally tend to not care about if they're an elf or not, but if they're useful or pleasant.

I think you can be nuanced with this as well. If you haven't read Jave's post, quoted at the top, you should. He gave some really excellent examples.

So, let's use your example. You really hated the shit out of elves, but this one, for whatever reason, isn't so bad. Now, you know how elves are viewed--Sneaky fuckers that will steal shit off of you as soon as look at you. In fact, you're pretty sure most elves are like that. So, if this elf is your friend, you might disguise it or hide it. Maybe you insult them extra, because you don't want even them to know how you feel. You certainly don't want people REALIZING you have an elf friend. Perhaps the most you'll say about him is that "yeah, he's a sneaky fucker, but he's not as bad as some of those others". Being aware that you're the exception to the rule, and understanding how others perceive elves, is important.

It's all about the specifics and how it's handled.

Sadly my characters usually ration out things to the point where they really just don't care.
I'm living in a world where famine and dying over water is common.
I can hate elves and dwarves when I have 10k in the bank.
But for now.
I'll pretend I care.

And that can be an approach that a PC could have. Perhaps they smile regularly at a breed, elf, or even gemmer, while still showing thinks and feels to show their hate, disgust, and disdain, their utter frustration at being in the situation--Or glee that they're going to use them and stab them in the back later.

The challenge, perhaps even problem, is when characters regularly and publicly take this approach when it may not be inline with the game world. If someone is regularly hanging out with, smiling at, chatting with a (breed/gemmer/elf) in public, that makes it seem like that is the norm, since PCs are the primary representation we see in the world. Associating with undesirables should generally be seen as something that could get you discriminated against. Will Kadius hire you if they think you're friends with a gemmer? Will Salarr hire you if they think you're kanking a breed? Certainly, most esteemed Lady Payswell Valika won't. Your PC may well be concerned about the view of others in the world around them, even if they have decided for whatever reason not to be racist assholes themselves.