A reasoned discussion of the current state of Armageddon vis-a-vis Olden Times

[Beethoven]

I'm sad that we don't get to unlock secrets of the universe and commune with demons. I'm not going to lie, that stuff sounds awesome to me, even though it puts some people off.

[Rokal]

I'm sad that we don't get to unlock secrets of the universe and commune with demons. I'm not going to lie, that stuff sounds awesome to me, even though it puts some people off.

I hear you.

[nauta]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

I tried looking for this through the request tool but couldn't find anything about it 
Maybe this rings a bell for another staff member who was involved.

I know who it was.  Check out Character Report #61873.  It was a pymlithe.  I have no idea how Eyeball or anyone heard about it, unless they heard about it IG.

[Jave]

Magickers and magick-related plots are fine if they are well thought out.  If you're playing a magicker you can certainly use your magickal abilities to achieve <goal> - but your goals should generally be reasonable things.

"High magick" plots that we'd like to stay away from are more of the unlocking the secrets of the universe, communing with demons, time travel, metaphysical stuff.

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

I tried looking for this through the request tool but couldn't find anything about it  
Maybe this rings a bell for another staff member who was involved.

I know who it was.  Check out Character Report #61873.  It was a pymlithe.  I have no idea how Eyeball or anyone heard about it, unless they heard about it IG.

Thanks for that. I read over it and to answer this:

Ok, but I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza. Why not?

As one sees here:

c.1629 (Year 12 Age 22)
Tensions flare between the common populace of Allanak and its minority gemmed population, which leads to riots and the eventual destruction of the elemental temples. Over the next couple of years, smaller and more subdued temples spring up in the Gemmed Quarter.

17 IG years ago to date the temples in the elemental quarter were destroyed in riots because the population at large was furious over what they perceived as the gemmed, who ought be second class citizens, living grand lives of luxury in their palace like elemental temples. The temple of vivadu used to have a very impressive garden on par with what one might glimpse over the high walls of the noble's quarter, but it was destroyed along with the temple during this uprising.

In the interest of preventing such massive civil unrest again, the Templarate has taken a dim view of the vivaduans trying to start another garden with exotic northern flora.

[Dresan]

 I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

[BadSkeelz]

17 IG years ago to date the temples in the elemental quarter were destroyed in riots because the population at large was furious over what they perceived as the gemmed, who ought be second class citizens, living grand lives of luxury in their palace like elemental temples.

I also failed a spot/giving-a-shit check when it came to preventing it. It had been a long weekend.

[Jave]

I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."

[wizturbo]

I also failed a spot/giving-a-shit check when it came to preventing it. It had been a long weekend.

See?  Blame BadSkeelz for why you can't have a tree in your water prison temple.

[nauta]

I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."

For the record, I have no idea who Eyeball is, or how anyone heard about that, although it was a bit of a thing in game with wet witches.

But, no offence, he got the story basically right: a Vivaduan wanted to plant something in the Vivaduan temple and staff said 'no'.  He just got the kind of tree wrong.  

He also didn't know the (perfectly legitimate) reason why it was denied.  

It was a dumb example for his crusade.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)

[Jave]

Sorry Nauta, my "telephone game" reference did make it sound like I was implying sharing IC information OOC'ly.

While that certainly happens, it can happen through IG information sharing as well.

I'm not accusing you or Eyeball of gossiping OOC'ly about IC information.

[Jave]

Ah, you did some modifications to your post while I was replying.

In your case:

"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza." -- sounds different from,
"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a rare and exotic northern plymithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza shortly after there were riots over, among other things, the Vivaduan temple having a lush garden filled with rare and exotic flora.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)

Agafari is likewise, a northern tree (albeit less rare) so it might be questionable but the main thing to keep in mind is that the "garden" of the post-riot Vivaduan temple should stay low key enough that it isn't going to draw the ire of the general population. Rare, exotic, or particularly lush "out of place in the middle of the desert" plants are probably going to get some stinkeye from the City Ministry and be seen as the gemmed trying to wiggle back up above their station.

Some of the more humble of the native southern flora: much more doable as is already portrayed by the room description of the Vivaduan temple entrance.

[Eyeball]

I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."

For the record, I have no idea who Eyeball is, or how anyone heard about that, although it was a bit of a thing in game with wet witches.

But, no offence, he got the story basically right: a Vivaduan wanted to plant something in the Vivaduan temple and staff said 'no'.  He just got the kind of tree wrong.  

He also didn't know the (perfectly legitimate) reason why it was denied.  

It was a dumb example for his crusade.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)

I didn't know I was crusading. In any case, it's a useful example. I could argue this case by itself, pointing out how the path before the temple is a glory of plant life, how pots were placed in the Vivaduan temple to... stay empty? etc. but in the end the staff made its ruling and that's that. So I won't.

What I will point out is the underlying message: 'gemmed can have nothing nice; it will never be approved because second-class etc.'. I can combine that with a message my gemmed have received, namely 'helping the city will not be allowed; people are scared of magick even if it's used to help the fields grow or to turn urine into water for growing crops'.

Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.

[Jihelu]

If I can't go back in time can I go forward.
Wake me up in twenty years.

[Lizzie]

I was chuckling at first especially in comparison to what Wizturbo was boasting about because clearly his experience must be the norm, but ultimately the story makes me sad. I hope at least what Jave wrote was the reason given to Nauta at the time when her request for some help was denied.

Personally I would have just RPed it and used the arrange command in the room. Maybe even sent a report about it at some point,  but then again I've been called cynical more than once around here.

That is, for the record, how it was explained in our reply.

And a good example I think of how subtly the story can change as it makes its way from player to player "telephone game" style before it finally surfaces on the GDB.

"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice and staff told them no." -- sounds a lot different than,
"I knew a player who just wanted to buy a pinch of spice from a half-giant militia soldier at the gate and staff told them no."

For the record, I have no idea who Eyeball is, or how anyone heard about that, although it was a bit of a thing in game with wet witches.

But, no offence, he got the story basically right: a Vivaduan wanted to plant something in the Vivaduan temple and staff said 'no'.  He just got the kind of tree wrong.  

He also didn't know the (perfectly legitimate) reason why it was denied.  

It was a dumb example for his crusade.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)

I didn't know I was crusading. In any case, it's a useful example. I could argue this case by itself, pointing out how the path before the temple is a glory of plant life, how pots were placed in the Vivaduan temple to... stay empty? etc. but in the end the staff made its ruling and that's that. So I won't.

What I will point out is the underlying message: 'gemmed can have nothing nice; it will never be approved because second-class etc.'. I can combine that with a message my gemmed have received, namely 'helping the city will not be allowed; people are scared of magick even if it's used to help the fields grow or to turn urine into water for growing crops'.

Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.

Your perception is not my experience. Since it's recent (within the last year) I won't give any more information than that. But - your examples are not based on "fact." They're based on your limited perception of things, which might or might not have any basis in fact, at all.

[Jave]

Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.

I'm about to start getting some RL work done but I wanted to chime in with one last thing on this.

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.
They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.
They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.
They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.

[Eyeball]

Are these messages reasonable within the context? Yes, I'm not saying they are not. Do they demonstrate how the gemmed are trapped and marginalized in terms of doing things? Add in a few more similar messages and I think they do.

I'm about to start getting some RL work done but I wanted to chime in with one last thing on this.

Yes. The gemmed are trapped and marginalized. Physically. Socially. Politically. That's their role within the culture of the Allanaki city state.
They are physically trapped by the gems they are forced to wear.
They are socially trapped by the population's distrust of magic.
They are politically trapped by the design of the government that bars them by law from holding any position of power or authority.

This is what you sign up for when you elect to play a gemmed mage in Allanak. It's the price you pay for the safety you receive. The mages who refuse to be bound in such a fashion either hide their gift or go rouge. It's a big part of our game's setting.

So the answer is, that's how things are and they're not going to change, despite some requests that have appeared here for more to do? So be it, at least we understand that now.

[Jave]

I didn't know I was crusading. In any case, it's a useful example. I could argue this case by itself, pointing out how the path before the temple is a glory of plant life, how pots were placed in the Vivaduan temple to... stay empty? etc. but in the end the staff made its ruling and that's that. So I won't.

You have a point here. I'm going to toss it onto the staff board and see if the path before the temple needs to be dressed down to sport more modest flora or if there is some other reason for why it's been allowed to stay so ... green and lush.

So the answer is, that's how things are and they're not going to change, despite some requests that have appeared here for more to do? So be it, at least we understand that now.

I think we might be making some mistaken assumptions about one another's meaning.

My core position, and I dare say staff's and probably the majority playerbase's core position is not: Mages should not be allowed to have things to do.
Rather, it is: Mages should have things to do that fit within the game's setting.

You might think that this means, for example: Then I can never play a mage who serves in the military because they won't let mages in any military clans.

But that's not exactly true. It means you can never play a mage who is openly a mage in the military with a dust cloak on your back, jade emblazoned sword in one hand and fireball in the other.

But the door is still open for you to play as a secret mage trying to hide their gift within a military clan, or as a mage who places a large emphasis on soldier's training for himself and tries to volunteer for service any chance he gets.

You might think that this means: I can never play a mage who becomes the leader of a MMH.

But that's not exactly true either. You can never play a mage who is openly a mage and walks around as your organization's figurehead.

But the door is still open for you to again play as a secret mage, or a behind the scenes actor who operates as a silent partner out of necessity and hires a front man to pose as a figurehead.

History is littered with examples of second class citizens who were forced by circumstance to find creative work arounds to the barriers placed upon them by the societies they were operating in. And we on staff will fully support any player attempting to follow in these footsteps.

[nauta]

Just to comment here (since I got drawn in) -- my view remains that the gemmed are and probably should be mere flavour roles.  But!

You might think that this means, for example: Then I can never play a mage who serves in the military because they won't let mages in any military clans.

But that's not exactly true. It means you can never play a mage who is openly a mage in the military with a dust cloak on your back, jade emblazoned sword in one hand and fireball in the other.

But the door is still open for you to play as a secret mage trying to hide their gift within a military clan, or as a mage who places a large emphasis on soldier's training for himself and tries to volunteer for service any chance he gets.

A gemmed couldn't do the former, and he's talking about the gemmed; as for the latter, I do like the idea of the gemmed who just doesn't 'get it' and keeps asking His Arm if he can come with them, heh.  But, yeah, the gemmed will get rejected, again and again.  So those aren't really viable roles.  I've seen quite a few gemmed come in with just that concept and they end up storing.

You might think that this means: I can never play a mage who becomes the leader of a MMH.

But that's not exactly true either. You can never play a mage who is openly a mage and walks around as your organization's figurehead.

But the door is still open for you to again play as a secret mage, or a behind the scenes actor who operates as a silent partner out of necessity and hires a front man to pose as a figurehead.

History is littered with examples of second class citizens who were forced by circumstance to find creative work arounds to the barriers placed upon them by the societies they were operating in. And we on staff will fully support any player attempting to follow in these footsteps.

The PCs that work for the gemmed would be playing exceptions to the rule, which is a bit of a worry.

[Erythil]

I feel like there's a certain balance to be struck here.  The Allanaki templarate seems to draw a large portion of its power and battlefield supremacy from the gemmed, so they don't want to make their lives so miserable that no one would agree to -be- gemmed.

[BadSkeelz]

"A place to live where you're not at constant risk of being hunted down, killed and eaten" is the luxury that the Templarate gives to its Gemmed. "Freedom to have a garden" is noble-level privileges and not something most common-born magickers will be thinking of.

[Jave]

A gemmed couldn't do the former, and he's talking about the gemmed

Point taken, yes a gemmed mage cannot be a secret mage.

The PCs that work for the gemmed would be playing exceptions to the rule, which is a bit of a worry.

This is actually not true though. You are not playing an exception to the rule if you play a character who works/associates with, likes, or even loves one of the gemmed.
You are playing an exception to the rule if you play a mundane character who carte blanche has no issues with magic or those who use it.

The devil is in the details.

Someone IRL might really dislike gay people for whatever reason, and then meet someone he quite likes who also turns out to be gay. Does he stop hating gay people immediately? Of course not. He compartmentalizes. He justifies that this one particular gay person is ok because -- reasons. He still gets really uncomfortable when the topic of sexuality comes up or he's confronted with it, but over all he manages to square that circle in his mind for this one guy, while still generally feeling dislike for the group as a whole.

If you're role playing your character's intimate association with a gemmed this way, then you aren't playing an exception to the rule at all you're playing right in line with the documentation and keeping the spirit of the game's theme alive & healthy.

In fact, if you want to play a bleeding heart liberal who thinks everyone was created equal and love and puppies and rainbows for all -- look honestly I personally think it's kind of lame and special snowflake like; but so long as you keep those cards close to your chest and do a good job of portraying how your character is painfully aware of how much of an unacceptable minority opinion their thoughts are, then I've got no issues with that either.

I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.

[Rokal]

A gemmed couldn't do the former, and he's talking about the gemmed

Point taken, yes a gemmed mage cannot be a secret mage.

The PCs that work for the gemmed would be playing exceptions to the rule, which is a bit of a worry.

This is actually not true though. You are not playing an exception to the rule if you play a character who works/associates with, likes, or even loves one of the gemmed.
You are playing an exception to the rule if you play a mundane character who carte blanche has no issues with magic or those who use it.

The devil is in the details.

Someone IRL might really dislike gay people for whatever reason, and then meet someone he quite likes who also turns out to be gay. Does he stop hating gay people immediately? Of course not. He compartmentalizes. He justifies that this one particular gay person is ok because -- reasons. He still gets really uncomfortable when the topic of sexuality comes up or he's confronted with it, but over all he manages to square that circle in his mind for this one guy, while still generally feeling dislike for the group as a whole.

If you're role playing your character's intimate association with a gemmed this way, then you aren't playing an exception to the rule at all you're playing right in line with the documentation and keeping the spirit of the game's theme alive & healthy.

In fact, if you want to play a bleeding heart liberal who thinks everyone was created equal and love and puppies and rainbows for all -- look honestly I personally think it's kind of lame and special snowflake like; but so long as you keep those cards close to your chest and do a good job of portraying how your character is painfully aware of how much of an unacceptable minority opinion their thoughts are, then I've got no issues with that either.

I think there is a lot of potential for nuance that gets lost in this false dichotomy of: You are either 100% ok with all mages and magic and wrong or you are 100% against all mages and magic and right.

This bolded part here. I see that theres a major issue with this in the ic sense - there is no middle ground. It happens a little, here and there, in my experience, but when a gemmer can't even talk to someone without getting threatened in public (Who would do that in public?) then say the templarate would probably reward them for carrying out said threat, it seems . .very unlike Zalanthas. Gemmers are scary, if that gemmer gives you the evil eye, you're bound to be cursed, piss one off?  Who knows what could happen.., and they're probably more useful to the templarate then amos the grebber and hunter..so why make those threats?.. but at the same time, there are those who would still put them to use. Out of desperation, discreetly, or otherwise.

Adding: Also, from a gemmer's  (or a non-gemmed, even) point of a view, a good gemmer generally wants to avoid causing trouble with people, and most gemmers grew up with the same life mundanes had, so they generally are still very much like people that are mundanes! they just have magick that sets them apart. Magick doesn't nessescaily mean they're personality is any different. They're typical people having to adapt to a life changing event when it comes to their manifestation, and while many eventually grow comfortable with their magick, they're still probably going to be unhappy about it, after all. You're suddenly the black sheep within your group of social friends.. or you suddenly have no friends. Or Might not even have a family.  They just make do with their lives as they can, but most gemmers have lost more then they've gained, in their own personal view.  (This is my opinon  on it, anyway )

Theres a middling ground here. While mundanes should never truly be 100% okay with magick , unless for extreme reasons, theres going to be people that have experienced it. Maybe your character's father was extremely sick or wounded and only a vivaduan could save them. THat would change ones opinon of magick. Maybe a Krathi blasted a scrab to ash that was about rip your head off your shoulders..heck, it doesnt even need to involve magick. Simple actions a persons takes while wearing that gem could effect someones view of them.

Im not saying that gemmers need more things to do. I'm just saying that it seems like the playerbase is playing on one far end of the extreme, or most of it. and from that, gemmers WOULD have more things to do, and no, it wouldn't 'invalidate' or make mundane's 'useless'

I mean..if you take a look in the Vivadu temple, it even shows that theres possibly mundanes -actively- there. Seeking healing for wounds or illness (Thats what it seemed like to me, anyway!). Theres even a few mundane NPCs that wander the mage quarter.

[Bast]

You know..there is a difference (or should be) between Tuluk's view on magick and Nak's. Also I can manage an epic table game thats as fun for the thief and the fighter as it for the casters in the party. Magick plots can involve mundanes..Mundanes plots -should- involve magickers too. Mages are a high karma class. Its a reward and a sign of trust it shouldn't be a punishment. Mages shouldn't be left to sit around with their thumbs up their asses while city wide plots include everyone but them. OOC dislike and IC dislike of the magicker classes should not mesh together. Arm seriously has the coolest magick system I've ever seen in a mud and really unless you make your things up to do you get excluded from practically everything for playing one. I highly dislike how oocly -anti-magick- some of the players are. If its not your thing fine..don't piss all over everyone else. Some players like myself who have been playing this game for over decade now enjoy that part of the game. I have more fun with magickers than I have any other class in the game hands down. That's including spending 2 real life years playing a pc that never walked into city in more recent times of no plots for mages. We get it some of you hate that there is a fantasy element of the game. Screaming loudly every 4 weeks about why you hate it so much is really unfair. I don't have a fit because there are thieves in the game and god damn it do I hate getting robbed! Or killed by assassin with a back stab without so much as a emote or any clue why. Yes people that know the magick system can do insanely cool things that sometimes seem over powered but I've seen bad ass magickers go down but some twink assassin decided to go on a killing magicker spree 'just because'. Honestly I am at point that every time I am attacked at seemingly random  by mudane with a mage (and it tends to happen often) a little part of me is assuming its because the player hates magickers oocly.

[Bast]

On topic I miss plotlines that included mage pcs. I also miss having more plots going on over all. Staff has picked back up and its gotten better but I would like to see more. I do not miss the magickal reach/item give aways or the PC Vampires that couldn't be killed without staff even you were the one class that should have been able to burn/dispel them into bits. I do wish we had some more interesting or perhaps darker bad guys out there again though. Never anything as op as some of the stuff we used to have running around but I think some more highly intelligent threats would be interesting. They provide realistic villain support as well.

I also miss halflings...I never will forget the first time I met a Templar in game and he had some rabid Halfling slave on leash. Pretty sure it was a pc slave and it totally tried to bite my face off until the Templar emoted yanking the leash back and sending the halfling flying. I wish we had more races.  

P.S also Kanks

P.S.S Also Coffee

[nauta]

Ah, you did some modifications to your post while I was replying.

In your case:

"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza." -- sounds different from,
"I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a rare and exotic northern plymithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza shortly after there were riots over, among other things, the Vivaduan temple having a lush garden filled with rare and exotic flora.

Unless you're saying staff would let us plant agafari tress in the Vivaduan temple? :-)

Agafari is likewise, a northern tree (albeit less rare) so it might be questionable but the main thing to keep in mind is that the "garden" of the post-riot Vivaduan temple should stay low key enough that it isn't going to draw the ire of the general population. Rare, exotic, or particularly lush "out of place in the middle of the desert" plants are probably going to get some stinkeye from the City Ministry and be seen as the gemmed trying to wiggle back up above their station.

Some of the more humble of the native southern flora: much more doable as is already portrayed by the room description of the Vivaduan temple entrance.

Sorry, this kept bothering me.

Eyeball's claim was that:

(a) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a seedling agafari in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

which sounds the same as:

(b) "I've heard, for example, of a Vivaduan who couldn't get approval to plant a pymlithe tree in an empty pot in the Vivaduan plaza [recently]."

The bit that you appended to (b) about the riots and whatnot to make it look like he was getting it all wrong and being way off base actually could be appended to (a) as well.

I suppose you could fight the merits of agafari vs. pymlithe in the rarities department, but, yeah - (a) and (b) are prrrrretty similar.

Anyway, I've always been fine with the decision itself -- I guess I'm just pointing out that you were being a bit unfair there to Eyeball.