Accessibility of Gathering Spaces Outside Cities

[Delirium]

The T'zai Byn and most of the GMH started IC.

At this point I'm just back and forthing with you guys, so... you know...

[Desertman]

The T'zai Byn didn't hire the hundreds of NPC's they have through the same system that currently exists for players to create clans (nor the GMH's).

Not relevant.

A few players WAY BACK in the day when peak-player-times were 20 people (enough people didn't even play the game back then to create multiple player ran organizations at once) got a staffer/some staff on their side and took their IC concept and managed to get it OOC'ly crafted into what it is now.

It was still OOC'ly created to be what it currently is when stacked against the current system that exists now for players to create similar ventures. Comparing them is a dead end and not relevant.

[BadSkeelz]

Stop trolling. - D

[Desertman]

Mine was a joke about the fruit selling girl in game. I have no idea what the original comment was even about nor do I care.

[Delirium]

I edited two posts because they added nothing to the discussion save for ridicule and hearsay, and only served to further tank the thread.

[LauraMars]

I split this thread off of RAT so a potentially interesting discussion didn't die in there as so many potentially interesting discussions do. Was this a mistake?

MAYBE.

Seriously, could we get back on topic now?

[Nyr]

I put it in its own thread anyway

If you think that everything used to be awesome and now it's terrible, here is where you can talk about it.

[AdamBlue]

guys why are we talking about making your own clan
i just want a fucking cool slums for Allanak that can be player-created and partially made by the admins to provide extra flavor and a bit more danger to the game
and maybe the ability for some enterprising dudes with a shitload of resources to make a little nook for themselves in the world or something
or non-safe housing for people that want to live a bit on the dangerous side
i mean sure it associates with clans and if it was in the game that would be a badass way to start a clan
The West Gate Gallows (MOB JUSTICE HYPE)
The East Gate Waterboys (who buy your water so you don't gotta pay a fee when you walk in with extra water)
North-Side Scummers (generally, criminals, with maybe a way to get into the 'rinth from the outside north wall???)

[BadSkeelz]

What I'm trying to tell you, AdamBlue, is that you can already do that.

[Desertman]

You want to establish a tent camp in the middle of the desert/outside of Nak/outside of Tuluk/anywhere not in the city?

Fine. You can do that. But do you really want to just walk out into the middle of the desert and establish said camp in an extremely hostile environment without first doing some "ground work" to help ensure you don't get destroyed?

Probably not. I mean you can. Of course you can. Buy a few tents and walk out and set them up wherever you want.

That will give you exactly what you have paid for and invested in. A camp where you have put in no effort/"ground work" to ensure you are any more safe than that meager amount of effort would require.

You don't get something for nothing.

What I would recommend is you start off by getting a location in game where you can amass a lot of materials, wealth, status, and finished goods to help you establish something more permanent.

A process exists for exactly that. (warehouses)

Start amassing your wealth, materials, goods, and status that will allow you to build something more than a shit-tent-base that can be wrecked like a shit-tent-base should.

It will be expensive. It will take allies. It will take time. But, if you do it right what you come out with will be the materials needed to establish a camp that is less likely to get shit-stomped by scrabs or passing thieves/raiders/gith warbands.

You get what you pay for. If you want to pay for a tent-camp that can get easily rolled. That is what you will get.

If you want to pay for one that won't get easily rolled...there is a system in game for that.

[Quell]

I wanted to make a quick note here in case anyone is interested in this.

I actually had a character temporarily hire a few NPCs for an in game week once. I wasn't even really trying to, I was trying to hire PCs and the staff threw in a few NPCs on the side. They weren't permanent fixtures or anything, but temporarily at least they were everything the people upthread were asking for and the amount of paperwork involved was pretty much just a character report and answering some follow up questions.

Soooooooo if anyone was interested in just setting up a temporary thing with some NPC guards, there's a way to do it.

[Delirium]

I was going to write a long and thought out post with lots of addendums and provisos to make sure I was being perfectly clear, but... ain't nobody got time for that.

The back and forth and side-tracking and trolling kind of tanked my desire to really participate much further.

So I'll keep it pretty short.

PCs and (v)NPCs should NOT be held to different standards, from a storytelling standpoint.

How to make the coded reality match up to that is - or should be - the goal.

That is what this thread should be seeking to accomplish.

Allowing camps to establish themselves, create quit rooms, slowly build more permanent (or "moving camp") structures, and gain followers & NPCS would fill that gap.

Would it be difficult? Absolutely! Should it be impossible, like it is now? Absolutely not!

We have a system in place for MMH in Allanak. This is good. I'm saying that "that's great guys, now how about we get a system in place for the concepts that don't fit in this mold, and shouldn't be forced to".

A system in which players can establish camps or groups which don't operate in Allanak, and can go through the proper channels to do so, would be the next step. Whether tribal, raider, etc.

This would have the side benefit of supporting antagonists more as well, which is something I think is sorely needed but on a different topic.

What I miss, are the days - admittedly, the days over a decade ago - when anything felt truly possible, and, probably, when I had the 4-8 hours a day to spend making it happen. These days, it feels like you have to jump through a lot of crazy hoops (and some of them are on fire), and just slave away for a huge portion of your real-life free time for the possibility that you might be able to make some kind of mark. It's probably not that bad, but that is how it feels, especially from the standpoint of a veteran that was used to the more free-wheeling give and take and back and forth in the days of yore.

This was well before the "dark days of Arm 2.0". I was a veteran when that rolled around, so it's likely I have a different perspective than most.

If I've been a voice of support for a more expanded MMH system, well, you better believe I hated the "no building" rule.

I am not fond of the flavor of bureaucracy that has developed in an attempt to be impartially fair, but I do appreciate and agree with the desire to be impartially fair. Perhaps some streamlining could be done.

My desire to spend part-time/full-time job hours stressing myself out trying to create something lasting in the game has gone by the wayside, but I'm sure there are plenty of other players who these systems would benefit. This really isn't about something that I want to accomplish, it's more about my sense of loss when I look back on "the old days" and when I look at things now.

[Desertman]

I'm all for new systems.

[Lizzie]

guys why are we talking about making your own clan
i just want a fucking cool slums for Allanak that can be player-created and partially made by the admins to provide extra flavor and a bit more danger to the game
and maybe the ability for some enterprising dudes with a shitload of resources to make a little nook for themselves in the world or something
or non-safe housing for people that want to live a bit on the dangerous side
i mean sure it associates with clans and if it was in the game that would be a badass way to start a clan
The West Gate Gallows (MOB JUSTICE HYPE)
The East Gate Waterboys (who buy your water so you don't gotta pay a fee when you walk in with extra water)
North-Side Scummers (generally, criminals, with maybe a way to get into the 'rinth from the outside north wall???)

Why would your character want it? I ask this question, because everything you say you want as a result, already exists: the labyrinth.
Why would your character want what is, for all intents and purposes, the labyrinth, except outside the city walls? Why would they want that final loss of physical barrier between themselves and the wilderness? Not why would you want it - it's easy to understand why you want it. You want to be the force behind change. So does everyone. But, given the option of a rinth with a protective barrier between themselves and mekillot #47, and a rinth without that protective barrier - why would your character pick the latter?

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

The rinth really is a fantastic place for rp. It doesn't need a nonidentical twin.

[Molten Heart]

I recently had a merchant PC who tried to do this (build a persistsnt camp in a remote location) and staffs' response was they weren't interested in helping me.

[Vwest]

I'm not sure what the problem is.

You can plant a tent and you can live out of them in just about any area of the game, at least as a ranger.

You can protect them by being terrifying and making examples of people. It's worked out well for me.

There are some containers in game big enough you can load them with smooth black stones (shifting a thousand or more stones with 'get all' and 'put all' is soul crushing) until they're impossible for anyone except half-giants to move. At that point, the time investment to steal your tent is so ridiculous that non-retards will just pass it by and you can murder the retards to enhance your terror factor.

If you want to make it happen, you can make it happen with some creative thinking and some all-in commitment.

The real problem with these situations is how rare rooms flagged 'save' and 'quit' are. If you aren't a ranger, your options are incredibly limited and the kinds of places you would want to setup are impossible, since you could never log out at your own camp site.


Solutions:

Tents being setup to automatically turn on 'save' and 'quit' flags in the room they're pitched in would be awesome, but I'm not sure how viable it is with Armageddons modified codebase.

An easier but less adaptive solution would be for one or two staff to review each zone in the game and add more save/quit rooms to places that would make good hideouts. Those rooms are out there and could be amazing, but right now they're of no use to anyone except rangers. It takes all of a few minutes to toggle room flags and shouldn't even require a reboot of the game to go live, I wouldn't think.

There could be a subguild option offered, too, one that offers nothing except wilderness quit. That way, anyone who wants to be a 'lives in the boonies' weirdo has an automated option and can pursue it completely independent of staff. The lack of all other 'extra' skills and benefits seems like a fair trade (ie; rogue mage wants wilderness camp, gives up forage food / climb to get it, etc) and rangers would still have full subguild options, so there would be no real loss of 'edge' there.

I'm being reminded of why I don't like posting on the GDB. Have fun, friends.

The GDB is the worst part of the Armageddon experience.

Except for that .gif. That .gif is fucking awesome.

[FantasyWriter]

craft 1.log 2.log 3.log 4.log 5.log into a segment of a log wall
craft 1.segment, 2.segment, 3.segment, 4.segment 5.segment into part of a log wall fence
craft 1.part tent into a small enclosed encampment
craft 1.part 2.part tent into a moderately sized encampment
craft 1.part 2.part 3.part 4.part tent into a large, fortified encampment

Bigger = More Space = More Costly = More Fortified

Smaller = Less Space = Less Costly = Harder to find

Maybe slowly increasing security even on the doors. Small encampments just have flaps, medium ones have just straight up doors/small gates, and the big ones have huge fucking gates and armored doors, with higher and higher prices for everything as you really ramp it up.
And, of course, there's no saying you can't have small encampments by eachother. Just not in the same room. You could have two neighbors with small encampments.

They'd just hafta be in different rooms.

Bobbuilder extended subguild.

[Jingo]

This game needs a camp code. Clan leaders should be able to trot their clan to a remote location and plop down a camp with a bit of requisite roleplay. This CLAN CAMP would include the essentials of a clan compoud, quit rooms. But no storage space. This would allow the whole clan to subsist in the area for an amount of time so they can complete their objectives piecemeal. Instead going out on five hour sorties to accomplish one simple objective.

Kadius wants to explore the far reaches of the grey forest and doesn't want to spend three fucking hours in transit everyday? Do one expedition and then put down a CLAN CLAMP so players could quit out and survive in the camp while they wait for the troop to get sorted for the upcoming kryl slaughter.

Salarr wants to build an outpost across the salt flats? Why not start with a CLAN CAMP as they prospect the perfect location.

Just imagine how happy Mr. Ender would be if he could put down a CLAN CAMP.

[Mordiggian]

That sort of thing can be facilitated by clan leaders working with their clan staff, perhaps. I think it's primarily unclanned people who are wanting for ways to set up shop beyond the city.

[Molten Heart]

This game needs a camp code. Clan leaders should be able to trot their clan to a remote location and plop down a camp with a bit of requisite roleplay. This CLAN CAMP would include the essentials of a clan compoud, quit rooms. But no storage space. This would allow the whole clan to subsist in the area for an amount of time so they can complete their objectives piecemeal. Instead going out on five hour sorties to accomplish one simple objective.

Kadius wants to explore the far reaches of the grey forest and doesn't want to spend three fucking hours in transit everyday? Do one expedition and then put down a CLAN CLAMP so players could quit out and survive in the camp while they wait for the troop to get sorted for the upcoming kryl slaughter.

Salarr wants to build an outpost across the salt flats? Why not start with a CLAN CAMP as they prospect the perfect location.

Just imagine how happy Mr. Ender would be if he could put down a CLAN CAMP.

Seems plausible any sizeable group with the proper supplies could do this regardless of their coded clan status. The desert and camp supplies don't know what clans are.

[ibusoe]

I know it's kind of early to be declaring the MMH thing a success, but...isn't it kind of a success?  The people who are into it, are exploiting the opportunity and are getting results.  They're having fun and achieving lulz.

The people who aren't into it, aren't taking advantage of the opportunity so they're not doing it.  They're finding other ways to have fun and achieve lulz.

Given the success of the MMH process...and I invite anyone to challenge that it is successful, I'm not positing this as a fact mind you, more of a theory...but given the success, what is needed is to make a smaller version of the MMH process for someone who wants a fort out in the woods. 

It simply shouldn't be that difficult to achieve.

I think a fort should be available to anyone who:
has 10,000 coins to spend
has 8,000 coins and certain of building materials
has 6,000 coins and sponsorship from some level inside of the funnel.

A little fort just isn't that tough to get.

What would this basic fort comprise of?
Two rooms, with walls on all rooms
One lockable door with up to twenty keys for the exterior
One really stupid (non-moveable) minion who would provide very very basic security

Heaven forbid someone would find an additional use for burglars, right? 

Once per real life year, staff could run a script and...
Any place that is not being actively maintained, the minion if present could desert
If there is no minion present, the lock could degrade
If the lock is already degradable, the place itself could degrade to ruins

Let's say you didn't like the fact that someone has a little fort?  You could destroy it...
By picking the lock on the front door and raiding the place
By spending 5,000 coins on kerosene and a torch
By Spending 3,000 coins on components if you manage to locate a battering ram
By spending 1,000 coins if you have sponsorship from someone inside of the Funnel.

Given that the game is advertised as someplace where "Characters have the power to transform the game world itself", it simply should not be so difficult to get a little fort.

[AdamBlue]

I honestly just want to be able to help create interesting places in the game without having to become a builder. Let's look at what the IDEAL set up would be, the END GOAL maybe of what someone could possibly accomplish


6 Rooms total, including the entrance.

The Entrance
A Barracks.
A Storage room.
A Stable.
A Garden.
A 'Bar'.


The Entrance. Possibly a well also included for water purposes, but in limited amounts under the assumption that there are vnpcs that drink and use most of the water.
Barracks, where people would rest, relax, and treat the injured.
A storage room, where those who had access could store things securely.
A Stable, for keeping creatures, and possibly keeping slaughterable animals for foodstuffs (chalton?)o
A Garden for a few choice fruits, and to forage basic farmstuffs for those good at it.
And a Bar, where people could eat, socialize, prepare meals, and possibly buy some food and drink from an enterprising brewmaster chef who's set up shop.


--
This just seems like the absolute perfection, which would take the efforts of many many people over years IG to accomplish, starting off with tents and eventually building more permanent structures as the 'outpost' grows over time.

In fact, that's actually a very good idea. Start outposts small, maybe a couple of rooms, and then as they grow older, allow more rooms and more features.

[ibusoe]

I meant to say this earlier before I got distracted by other posts here, but we've actually discussed something along those lines on the staff side of things, AdamBlue.  Not necessarily around any one city itself, but the prospect of slums/tents/shanties and how those things could work in a way that is different than apartments.

It's fallen by the wayside a bit but it can probably be picked back up, dusted off, and made viable.

Yeah.

I think overall, though.  The staff ought to considerably liberalize their policy of implementing player-proposed changes in the game. 

Consider the following potential model:

Size 6 Change:  Changes to the theme of the game, like adding unicorns or flying machines or karaoke machines.  Definitely No.

Size 5 Change:  Huge Change that will semi-permanently or permanently affect the majority of players.  Example:  Destruction of a City-State the size of Tuluk
Requirements: Proposing player should need to go on an extensive quest to do the groundwork for this, followed by a huge major HRPT during which most of the remaining players will have the opportunity to directly enter a battle to implement/prevent this kind of change.
Frequency: Once Every Five years

Size 4 Change:  Large Change that will temporarily affect a small group of players.  Example:  Somebody torches the Nobles Quarter in Allanak.
Requirements:  Player complete a quest first, followed by RPT during which at least some players have the chance to stop this, unless they're asleep at the wheel or don't otherwise care
Frequency: Two or three times per year, as needed

Size 3 Change:  Player sets up a stand in the marketplace, or builds an apartment complex, or builds an outpost, etc.

Size 2 Change:  Player slays a Templar from a rival city state, has a street named after them.

Size 1 Change:  Player gets mad at House Salarr, burns down a stall in the marketplace belonging to Salarr

Size 0 Change:  Player wants scars on their character (currently implemented)

My point is that changes to Size 3 or below, it should probably be rubber-stamped into the game.  Things like that shouldn't be so difficult for a player in a fantasy video game to achieve in a "post-apocalyptic fantasy world, where players have the opportunity to affect the game world around them." 

[Erythil]

This game needs a camp code. Clan leaders should be able to trot their clan to a remote location and plop down a camp with a bit of requisite roleplay. This CLAN CAMP would include the essentials of a clan compoud, quit rooms. But no storage space. This would allow the whole clan to subsist in the area for an amount of time so they can complete their objectives piecemeal. Instead going out on five hour sorties to accomplish one simple objective.

Kadius wants to explore the far reaches of the grey forest and doesn't want to spend three fucking hours in transit everyday? Do one expedition and then put down a CLAN CLAMP so players could quit out and survive in the camp while they wait for the troop to get sorted for the upcoming kryl slaughter.

Salarr wants to build an outpost across the salt flats? Why not start with a CLAN CAMP as they prospect the perfect location.

Just imagine how happy Mr. Ender would be if he could put down a CLAN CAMP.

This reminds me of how Harshlands handles clan travel to remote locations.  That game is ridiculously big, and traders need to travel, so they have a neat tool to help accomplish having your clan travel around.  Basically, you get an'encampment' item that you can place anywhere, and as long as your clan PCs log off in the encampment, they will still be in it when it sets back up wherever you arrive.  This means it's not necessary for everybody to be online every time you travel.

We kind of have this already with wagons, but generally speaking wagons are incredibly restricted.