Accessibility of Gathering Spaces Outside Cities

[Nyr]

Not to squash discussion of new ideas/adaptions of the system/etc, but for the MMH system, you don't have to be pro-Allanak.  You do have to play in Allanak, at least to an extent, but paying taxes isn't the same as being pro-Allanak. It should be possible to modify one's concept to fit the MMH model as it exists right now.

[Delirium]

I'm thinking of shared spaces, though - communal tents, supply tents. It would also provide a foolproof way of figuring out if someone is online or not.

Not saying it doesn't have merit, just that there's some definite flaws to having everything become completely virtual on logout.

And Nyr, being anti-Allanak and trying to get a MMH-style setup going IN Allanak sounds like the worst kind of sado-masochistic torture that's doomed to failure. It also sounds unrealistic as, if we weren't thinking by the constraints placed on us out of character, the most logical conclusion of an anti-southerner would be to base yourselves anywhere but Alllanak.

[Narf]

It would also provide a foolproof way of figuring out if someone is online or not.

Yes it would.

ICly people are always online, and you should not be using offline status as a refuge. It is unavoidable that it will become a refuge incidentally, but you should not be intentionally using it as such.

[Delirium]

... exactly?

But if you think some players won't abuse the ability to know for sure if you're there or not, I'm sorry to say you've got another thing coming.

[Fujikoma]

You don't have to be pro-allanak, but you need some form of sponsorship from the templarate or nobility. You at least have to look pro-allanak to get your foot in the door over all the ass-kissing slimewads oozing over said noble or templar for that one remaining warehouse. Or I suppose you could kll them all.

[Taven]

Ability to have semi-secure storage for new non-MMH PC initiatives (tents outside of Allanak desires)

I'm curious if anyone has a good suggestion for how to do this. One of the generally accepted perks of clan life is that you're part of a massive organization that gives you a number of things. One of these things is secure storage. In a world where making money is very easy, and you can make more as an indie then as a GMH member (which is counter to how it really should be ICly), I tend to think of this as one of the real, serious benefits of being in a GMH.

In the example, you want to have a tent outside of Allanak, and outside of the regular law (thus enabling spice, etc etc so on). In that situation, isn't it designed to enable illegal activities (you mentioned spice smoking)? That sort of reality would make it very possible for people to steal from you, and asides from the player base, there's a lot of vNPCs who would presumably also want to and have reasons to as well.

In a different sort of situation, such as just having a gambling tent, I think this has more somewhat done successfully in the past, though didn't lead to anything permanent. Basically, you can work with realities of the game. If you know people are going to take the tent when you're not there, just pack it up and have a moving gambling tent. Or, make good relationships with those in power. If you're in the rinth, get on the Guild's good side, because they control the area, and they have the vNPC people to back shit up. Likewise, if you want to do something in Allanak proper, or in Allanak-held territories, make good with the templars. They have PC soldiers who can patrol. If you're influential enough, I'm sure staff has ways to make sure people just don't ruin all your shit. Basically, you have to put the RP and time in to make yourself not a nobody, so that you have the influence to do something.

Though a lot of that gets close to MMH stuff anyhow, depending on what you're trying to do.


Ability to have semi-secure storage in wilds/outlying areas (for antagonist-types who are off in the wilds being scary)

I'm curious about the issues here. Which of these are people seeing as the most common problem?

• There's not enough obscure save-rooms to put things (or save rooms in general)
• Even when you're in a coded clan, people steal all your shit, or try to
• Even if you have a larger group of people, people try to steal all your shit, taking OOC advantage of playtimes
• Getting enough people to have a reasonable chance of them watching your shit is an issue
• Tents don't work well outside of cities as long-term things

I'm also curious what people think are potential solutions for those issues. I think so far the only suggested solution is limiting IC theft of places to when a person is online, unless I missed anything.


Expansion of MMH policies to allow for groups that aren't pro-Allanak to have success (or options)

Not to squash discussion of new ideas/adaptions of the system/etc, but for the MMH system, you don't have to be pro-Allanak.  You do have to play in Allanak, at least to an extent, but paying taxes isn't the same as being pro-Allanak. It should be possible to modify one's concept to fit the MMH model as it exists right now.

Well...

I really can't fathom how hard it would be to make a MMH if you're not pro-Allanak, or at least a group that's significantly serving Allanaki interests. Why would they let you get anywhere in their city if you're not doing something for them? Especially if you have competition from all the other would-be MMH who actually ARE pro-Allanak? The game isn't designed to be friendly to foreigners, especially ones that want to set up shop in your city. That is absolutely intended. If you're a Stormer and try to get far in Allanak, without showing that you're supporting the city-state's interests, expect to be met with suspicion and even hostility. Tek help you if you're a Tuluki trying to do the same thing. Given how the game supports prejudices (that is part of the flavor of the very setting), I don't know that it's fair to say that a concept can be so easily modified.

[Delirium]

So a group of Tuluki loyalists, or a tribal clan of raiders, should set up shop in Allanak?

GEE PROBLEM SOLVED.

My goodness, do you people even actually read what is posted or do you just immediately grab on to something to knee-jerk respond to?

I'm out of this thread until I can be a little less frustrated.

At least Taven actually seems to get it.

[ibusoe]

I'm being reminded of why I don't like posting on the GDB. Have fun, friends.

Don't be like this.  We <3 you.  They were tougher on you than they had to be but it traces back to other issues that have nothing to do with you.

*nerd hug*

[Nyr]

And Nyr, being anti-Allanak and trying to get a MMH-style setup going IN Allanak sounds like the worst kind of sado-masochistic torture that's doomed to failure. It also sounds unrealistic as, if we weren't thinking by the constraints placed on us out of character, the most logical conclusion of an anti-southerner would be to base yourselves anywhere but Alllanak.

I'm not suggesting you go up to a templar and tell them you want to create Amos's Emporium of Fucking Allanak Over (not to be confused with Amos's Emporium of Fucking Over Allanak, a hang-gliding brothel).

I'm suggesting that one's goals can be adapted to this system, and that with the use of subterfuge/subtlety/bribery, you can achieve several goals mentioned here.  It would definitely require willingness to compromise on your specific concept.  If your concept is "build desert fortress from which I can destroy Allanakis" but you do not wish to engage in the interim steps needed to get there, you definitely won't like the existing system and will want something different. 

Also, talk to staff, we are perfectly willing to give feedback on your idea and offer some tips/suggestions.

[Malken]

So a group of Tuluki loyalists, or a tribal clan of raiders, should set up shop in Allanak?

GEE PROBLEM SOLVED.

My goodness, do you people even actually read what is posted or do you just immediately grab on to something to knee-jerk respond to?

I'm out of this thread until I can be a little less frustrated.

Considering how I remember when one of the Arabeti/Seik Staff flipped when a tribal PC decided that she wanted to live in an apartment for a while, I can only imagine how great it would look for a bunch of tent-living, desert-dwelling PCs decide that a walled warehouse in the middle of Allanak would look hahah

People say, "It'd be fun to be able to create a small camp of semi-perma tents that can't be picked up for a while" and Staff replies with, "If you want to build a desert fortress to take over Allanak you won't like the answer."

What sort of tips/suggestions would you give to someone who asked you if it was possible for them to create a small semi-perma tents groupings with room-locked tents and such, Nyr?

[Fujikoma]

I'm being reminded of why I don't like posting on the GDB. Have fun, friends.

Don't be like this.  We <3 you.  They were tougher on you than they had to be but it traces back to other issues that have nothing to do with you.

*nerd hug*

I agree. Love the changes. This doesn't mean I support every tiny thing about them, much like, if I had a girlfriend with a temper problem, I'm likely not going to enjoy having the dishes thrown at my head, but it doesn't mean I dislike everything about them.

[Nyr]

Tribal stuff is probably the weakest part of the system as it exists right now, I'd agree.

[BadSkeelz]

If you can't safely log-out with all of your worldly possessions packed on you and/or your mount, you probably own too much stuff.

Follow that guideline and you'll be able to live like a true nomad, able to set up camp and free-wheel wherever you please.

[Nyr]

If I wanted to play a Tuluki doing this, for example, I'd probably play a Tuluki ex-pat that moved South because of (reasons), then set up shop in Allanak.  I'd have to bribe Allanakis, and probably try to bring on board some other ex-pats in-game to work on my IC-ly developed, legitimate business venture.  I'd need to pay taxes, and lie about how much I thought Allanak rocked, at least to the ones that mattered.

I'd then eventually let the character's motiviations develop towards hatred of his surroundings.  This isn't Tuluk.  This is Allanak, and I have to live here.  Fuck this place, amirite?  Hmm...well they sorta trust me enough here.  I can probably start funneling some funds towards nefarious ends.  Maybe I can send money to this criminal organization I've heard of, and have them take down some folks just because I don't like them, and they're Allanaki.

At some point, I'd need staff support, but I'd already have been sending in reports about my plans, even before the character started.  They'd need to sign off on my trading company.

At that level, I have my own compound AND a warehouse AND probably some guards and stuff.  All running a seemingly legitimate business, all of which is funding my interests to fuck Allanak over when I'm not just paying the bills.  I have a place that is secure that I can bring in cronies and the like.  I can set up virtual deals and stuff to get minor things done, like funneling money off to Tuluk, or setting up a virtual spying organization-type deal.

Let's say I want to be a minor merchant house at the very end.  Fine, I need support from a group in-game.  Who would support me?  It needs to be a GMH or equivalent group, or a noble house.  Is there one of these groups I can convince?  This is where I'd need to be communicating with staff.  Assuming success--and this is a big assumption, as all of this so far has assumed absolute success at every turn without true motives being found out, but let's assume it--I am in hoc to whatever group I've convinced to sponsor me, but now I'm able to expand even more, and the organization will persist after I'm gone.  This organization is built on a legitimate business, but it is being used towards much more devious ends.

The templarate isn't monolithic.  Bribery is possible.  Success is not guaranteed, but it's also not guaranteed for those that want to make an MMH without some other purpose to it.

[AdamBlue]

holy shit i make an offhanded fantasy comment about sweet outskirts of the city and it started a huge thread
what the fuck have i done
oh god nyr is even posting
shit shit shit this is where i say something interesting right
right???

HA HA YEAH HANG-GLIDING BROTHELS AM I RIGHT

what the fuck that was so stupid quick quick backpeddle

I MEAN, UH, YEAH, LIKE, SO- TENT CITIES.

[Quell]

If you can't safely log-out with all of your worldly possessions packed on you and/or your mount, you probably own too much stuff.

Follow that guideline and you'll be able to live like a true nomad, able to set up camp and free-wheel wherever you please.

I think most people could pull off everything mentioned with stuff packed on their mount.

But this means you will never get to enter a building for as long as you live.

[Nyr]

I meant to say this earlier before I got distracted by other posts here, but we've actually discussed something along those lines on the staff side of things, AdamBlue.  Not necessarily around any one city itself, but the prospect of slums/tents/shanties and how those things could work in a way that is different than apartments.

It's fallen by the wayside a bit but it can probably be picked back up, dusted off, and made viable.

[Taven]

I meant to say this earlier before I got distracted by other posts here, but we've actually discussed something along those lines on the staff side of things, AdamBlue.  Not necessarily around any one city itself, but the prospect of slums/tents/shanties and how those things could work in a way that is different than apartments.

It's fallen by the wayside a bit but it can probably be picked back up, dusted off, and made viable.

That sounds pretty neat.

Is it still in heavy discussion, or can you talk about some of what possibilities have been tossed about?

[solera]

We do have an MMH system in place by which PCs can rent/purchase large buildings for the purposes of commerce... (and ultimately even become a coded clan, with some work and luck.)

This only works if you're explicitly playing in Allanak and are pro Allanak.  I'm looking forward for a similar structure put in place for potential groups that fall outside of that designation.

My understanding is that some of these policies have been expanded to Red Storm. I know there's a warehouse in Red Storm anyways.

So there's no warehouse in Storm? It would seem a good home for  non nakki-kankers.

[Desertman]

I like the idea of putting together tent villages.

I have no idea how to go about doing that.

But I like the idea of putting that power in the hands of the players. I can't see how it would hurt the game in any way and it would allow people an outlet for creative player-driven fun. Would it most likely die along with the leader of said little "tent-camp"? Yes. But that goes for every player-created-clan-system currently in the game so that would just be following the general theme of the rules.

Should you get NPC's to guard your tent camp and make it safe just because you got four people to buy tents and live with you? Absolutely not. You should have to go through a very lengthy (IC years) and extended process that costs A LOT of money for staff to award you said NPC's. The MMH system requires the same thing already but it is arguably easier because you are doing it inside of an already relatively safe city (compared to random desert tent-camp environments). Doing this in the desert should be MAGNITUDES more difficult up to including the risk of having beasties stomp your shit and random roamers happen through to steal your things.

Come to think of it...really everything exists for you to already do this. Will it be hard and extremely likely to fail? Absolutely. Does that mean you should get staff support right off of the bat while having to deal with NONE of the inherent issues associated with establishing a small community in the middle of the most hostile environment imaginable? No.

In general though, I like it.

Edited to Add:
My post kind of started to ramble slightly as I went.

tldr: You can already do this in game...it just isn't going to be spoon fed to you and it will fail 24/25 times you attempt it...but really, it should. Creating a MMH in game through the current system is also going to fail MANY more times than it succeeds...and that's in a city with crim-code in play and secure warehouses available. Creating tent camps in the desert should be several times harder, which with the current "system", it already is...so really...we already have a pretty good system for that concept. It's even realistic arguably.

[AdamBlue]

I meant to say this earlier before I got distracted by other posts here, but we've actually discussed something along those lines on the staff side of things, AdamBlue.  Not necessarily around any one city itself, but the prospect of slums/tents/shanties and how those things could work in a way that is different than apartments.

It's fallen by the wayside a bit but it can probably be picked back up, dusted off, and made viable.

It seems to be making people -very- excited.

You know, maybe it could be rectified by making certain types of 'make'able items.

Like, if you want to build your own little outpost, what you're gonna want to do is first set up 'fencing'. This way, you have a solid base. Fences could be made of different stuff, but would require a few materials. Sandstone or wood would be fine, probably. The fence would be an 'enterable' room that animals can't really wander into by sheer accident, and also can't wander out by sheer accident. Then make that into a save room of which, depending on how big the fence is, can hold so much stuff. Then make big Tents that function somewhat like immobile argosies, that cost quite a bit, but have up to (GASP) two rooms, with a tent-flap door inside to separate them!

Of course, without the modern joy of 'lockable doors', you'll need to hire some guards, at least a couple to ensure you aren't robbed the second you step away from the screen. Hit the Gaj! You could find a nice PC who wants to help out for stable pay, or if you feel you're too boring, you could grab a casual jerk merc NPC about the bar. Let's start small, with a single guard by the entrance and another guard by the flap inside. You kit them out, and you pay them somewhat how apartments work, and they'll stand guard. You can tell 'em to keep everyone but you out, or you can tell them to let specific people in, one at a time. They're not too bright, you see, but they have great memory, and eventually will remember to let entire clans in.


So, let's cover so far all the maintaining you'll need to do, to make a small tent outpost work.

Fence + Maintaining (MAYBE HIRE A DUDE TO MAINTAIN YOUR FENCE THAT YOU CAN PAY??)
(ALSO MAYBE THE ABILITY TO HAVE A SMALL STABLE THAT YOU ALSO HAVE TO PAY FOR, BOTH FOR FEEDING THE MOUNTS, STORING THE ANIMALS, AND PAYING THE CARETAKER, WITH A LIMITED AMOUNT OF ANIMALS ALLOWED INSIDE?)
Guards + Paying
Buying Big enough Tents that are a one-time, immobile investment

And now you're thinking, probably, 'ALAS, ADAM-SEMPAI, WHAT IF I WANNA BE A HUGE JERK-ASS AND FUCK THESE RICH ASSHOLES UP?'
It's okay, you can do that too. Probably with a timer. You'd hafta first kill the guard inside, then start destroying the fence. Once it's at 'broken', you'll be flagged by all the guards inside as an enemy, and if you and your squadron of gang-bang killas can duke them all out, then GG. If, however, you flee or you get rekt, then the dude can pop on, fix the fence, hire more guards, and enjoy all of your loot you dropped, nerd.

[BadSkeelz]

You can already make a tent village with the following steps:

>inv
A few pairs of brown desert tent

>drop tent

>drop tent

>drop tent

>make tent

>make 2.tent

>make 3.tent

Voila, tent camp!

Yes, it's not going to be super permanent nor is it going to be very secure. They're tents. Asking them to be permanent and secure is asking them to be something they're not.

Let's say your silty crew rolls up outside of town with three people. Each of you have a tent on your mount, and a dozen or so items to put inside for trade or flavor. You unpack your mounts, take your stuff inside (perhaps working in shifts so that someone is - gasp - on watch to make sure the fucking dangerous desert doesn't produce some sort of nasty surprise) and arrange it to your liking. Now you're open for business in your tent. When it becomes time to move on (i.e. log out) you can either A) Gamble that you don't get all your shit stolen by PCs or a server crash or B) pack up your life like the nomad you are and ride(quit) off into the sunset.

Temporary campsites are already achievable in game. But I don't think that's what people in this thread want. They want permanent camp "towns" that don't get rolled over by storms, raiders or beasts; that will let them keep all their shit safe in rent-free perpetuity; that will allow them to amass simply ridiculous amounts of items that may or may not get their asses busted in urban centers; that will let them mudsex without fear of burglars and assassins because you're so far from the city you don't reasonably expect them; something they can point to with one hand while stroking themselves with another and say "I built that."

Personally, I think that's an unrealistic desire. But in a game where it takes real-life months to achieve anything, I can understand the desire for that level of safety. I'd certainly be much more keen on making the free-wheeling-tribal if I wasn't looking at a 300-hour-playtime investment to reach a point of not-utter-suckass.

[Desertman]

I think the only thing the whole concept needs is for a staffer to say;

"If you put together a tent camp that lasts IC years successfully and pay the right people and do the right things, we will let you hire NPCs to make it more secure and make it less of a camp and more of a tent-town.".

But really, I think our current staff would already do that if anyone ever actually put in the required work successfully.

I just don't recall anyone ever pulling it off to date/successfully putting in that work. But, I think if they did, staff would step up and help them.

The system is already there. This can already be done. I think people just want a staffer to say, "Hey, if you build it, your NPCs will come.".

[Ender]

I think the only thing the whole concept needs is for a staffer to say;

"If you put together a tent camp that lasts IC years successfully and pay the right people and do the right things, we will let you hire NPCs to make it more secure and make it less of a camp and more of a tent-town.".

But really, I think our current staff would already do that if anyone ever actually put in the required work successfully.

I just don't recall anyone ever pulling it off to date. But, I think if they did, staff would step up and help them.

The system is already there. This can already be done. I think people just want a staffer to say, "Hey, if you build it, your NPCs will come.".

I have done this, and I have been explicitly told no on NPCs.  Hence the whole 24/7 paranoia thing because of people raiding my camp when they knew I and other PCs in the camp were offline.

[AdamBlue]

craft 1.log 2.log 3.log 4.log 5.log into a segment of a log wall
craft 1.segment, 2.segment, 3.segment, 4.segment 5.segment into part of a log wall fence
craft 1.part tent into a small enclosed encampment
craft 1.part 2.part tent into a moderately sized encampment
craft 1.part 2.part 3.part 4.part tent into a large, fortified encampment

Bigger = More Space = More Costly = More Fortified

Smaller = Less Space = Less Costly = Harder to find

Maybe slowly increasing security even on the doors. Small encampments just have flaps, medium ones have just straight up doors/small gates, and the big ones have huge fucking gates and armored doors, with higher and higher prices for everything as you really ramp it up.
And, of course, there's no saying you can't have small encampments by eachother. Just not in the same room. You could have two neighbors with small encampments.

They'd just hafta be in different rooms.