RP Strategy Session - D-Elves the Problem Children

[ibusoe]

EDIT:  I like what Musashi has to say about desert elves (see below) better than I like what I have to say about desert elves, so I'd encourage any newer players to interested parties to read what he's written.  I'll leave the rest of my post unedited below for posterity.

I want to write this post to create a strategy session for ways to improve the gaming experience for and around desert elves.  

While those of you who know me understand I sometimes attempt to discourage push-back or criticism of things that I'm attempting to outline, I'd actually prefer the opposite with this post - I'd like to be welcoming and to gather as much feedback as possible.  If you've been playing for much less time than I have?  It's okay, simply state that and then share your opinion.  Don't have much experience playing desert elves?  No problem, please be upfront about that and then share your opinion anyway.  I personally wish that more of us would see this game as a shared resource and would like nothing better than to enjoy this game with most of you for decades to come.

Half Giant role-play has improved.  Dwarven role-play might very well be on it's way up.  And the current crop of elf-players are like the best that I've seen during my tenure here.  

But to me desert elves are now the problem children.

I'm keenly aware that for many of us, the "correct way" to play the game depends heavily upon what time you started playing, and so I'll outline the progression of desert elves as I see them.  Your mileage may vary and I'm actively soliciting the opinions of people who've had a different experience.

When I started playing, I got the impression that desert elves were forked from city elves for design purposes.  While I'm not suggesting this is how the game evolved, I'm postulating that this is how it *could* have evolved.  So city elf stats would probably not need to be too much different than human-burglar stats, or whatever.  Some city elf playing with the same stats/skills as a human burglar could in many cases have pretty much everything he'd need to survive in his native environment.  Are city elf stats much different than city human stats?  Game rules prevent me from dishing on stuff like this, but if you play a couple of humans and a couple of city elves it's not difficult to figure this stuff out on your own.  

My belief is that desert elf stats are so different from city elf stats because a desert elf player character will *need* much more jacked skills/abilities to survive in their native environment.  It's simply a game balance issue.

So at the time that I started playing, there were a couple of directives from the staff of the day to the players of the day.  Staff had asked players not to simply use their characters as vehicles to explore the remoter regions of the game world, and not to use their characters to simply pwn and grief the 0-karma PCs.  Why would the staff issue these directives?  While their motives might be lost to the ages, one might simply deduce that these particular directives were issued to correct specific problems.  It was in this environment that I learned to play around desert elves.  The desert elves of the day were played by somewhat snobbish players.  Most of them sat around in the Gaj incessantly wearing custom clothing and chattering incessantly making in jokes with senior players.  FULL BLOODED ALLANAKI NOBLES would sit in the Gaj talking to them and sucking up to them.  Back then Desert Elves were much less stand-offish, so for your average twinky-noble if you wanted something from the desert, you would simply place an order with your friendly neighborhood desert elf.  Desert elves were culturally continuous with Allanaki Nobility.  

This changed for me within a couple of months when there was a small number of better-roleplayed desert elves cropped up, these modelled around Native Americans.  This seemed to fit to me, and these guys occupied a niche that I think in my opinion represents the best of the desert elves.  To me, desert elves represent the suburbs of the city-states.   They're not as remote as the gith or the mantis, but they're close enough to the cities as to interact with people from the cities.

Official policy seemed to change after that, based upon my limited perspective which had the unfortunate effect of chasing desert elves completely away from the cities.

Later, staff introduced a controversial measure which in my opinion improved desert elf role-play immensely - they required desert elf players to play in one of the existing tribes.  This bothered me at first but it helped me to boost my own role-play.  

From there things quickly took a turn for the worse.  A well-intentioned complaint from a player that the desert elf documentation effort was too thing prompted a re-org, which resulted in the current over-regulation of desert elf role-play.  This environment has produced some problematic role-play as well as some unnecessary restrictions.  I really feel like the last restructuring did more harm than good which is bound to be difficult for the principles involved to hear.


*The newer tribal cultural guidelines seem more like restrictions than they do as stimulating source material.  In at least one case, I feel that the newer material serves only to enforce the more stereotypical aspects of tribal role-play rather than providing a framework for constructing living, breathing three-dimensional dynamic characters.
*Too many players tend to treat the Tablelands as their personal PKing sandbox.  This is against the docs.  If anything, 0-karma characters should usually be left alone.  Charging protection money?  Makes plenty of sense.  Likewise with harassment.  Obviously, disrespect from outsiders is subject to retaliation.  But if anything you should be looking to scam and hustle visitors while providing them with an enjoyable visit, not try to act like the Taliban of the Table-lands.
*No effort to scam or hustle people - I blame the staff for this though, there isn't really enough coded support for desert elven thieves.  Remember, all desert elves are thieves.
*Tribe members are obsessed with their own tribal PCs.  This is weird.  I for example don't really care if your elven PC has been around longer than my elven PC.  Except by personal OOC agreement you don't outrank me, or if you do we're not in the same chain of command.  At the risk of sounding standoffish, I'm not that interested in RPing with you simply because we're in the same tribe.  Remember, this is my tribe too and my character has just as many NPC connections as you do.  My character may be a new PC, but he's not a new elf.  If you're interested in bullying join the Byn, and if you're interested in social climbing join House Kadius.
*Not enough respect for the mercantile class from the warrior classes. I'm sorry, but this is just how desert elves work.
*Tribal solidarity between elven tribes - this is inappropriate.  Remember, rival desert elves are known scammers.
*Too many desert elf tribal PCs treat human tribal PCs as punching bags.  If anything, you should view tribal human PC as being more bad-assed than your tribal elven PC, despite any real or perceived coded differences.
*PC desert elves should be *encouraged* by staff to engage city humans.  Desert elves are in the game, in my opinion, primarily to *add* flavor not to hide out in the woods.
*I plan to post the current desert elf tribal guidelines from the (open-source) docs for reference below in their entirety, please feel free to do this ahead of me.

Please don't take any of this as edicts.  I'm writing this to stimulate disagreement and discussion.  Please message me personally if you feel the need to do so, I promise that I'm not sensitive about any of what I've written here.  

[Mordiggian]

THE HATE CYCLE CONTINUES

WE MUST EMBRACE SUFFERING AND BURN IT AS FUEL FOR OUR JOURNEY

[musashi]

*The newer tribal cultural guidelines seem more like restrictions than they do as stimulating source material.  In at least one case, I feel that the newer material serves only to enforce the more stereotypical aspects of tribal role-play rather than providing a framework for constructing living, breathing three-dimensional dynamic characters.

I played a desert elf a couple years ago, and then recently played in the same tribe as before. I didn't notice any qualitative differences in the documentation between then and now but you may be referencing a different tribe from the one I played in.

Suffice to say this was not my experience.

*Too many players tend to treat the Tablelands as their personal PKing sandbox.  This is against the docs.  If anything, 0-karma characters should usually be left alone.  Charging protection money?  Makes plenty of sense.  Likewise with harassment.  Obviously, disrespect from outsiders is subject to retaliation.  But if anything you should be looking to scam and hustle visitors while providing them with an enjoyable visit, not try to act like the Taliban of the Table-lands.

I have no problem with tribal characters in the tablelands keeping non-tribal characters out. I don't think this is against the documentation.
The way I see it, your land is your resource, and having other people come into your land to hunt and forage there would be a big issue for two reasons.
One: Cities have huge appetites and if they take too much from the land your people will be going hungry.
Two: It destroys your economic trading power to allow other people to come into your land and harvest your resources for free instead of buying them from you.

I enjoy the idea that if you go mucking around in the backyard of the wild tribes you are taking your life into your hands.

*No effort to scam or hustle people - I blame the staff for this though, there isn't really enough coded support for desert elven thieves.  Remember, all desert elves are thieves.

Some people take the thieving aspect of elven culture in a very literal direction and roll up a burglar or pick pocket.
Other people roll up a merchant and interpret their thieving  as over charging on goods.
Other people roll up warriors and interpret their thieving as stealing lives of the foes they defeat.
Some people largely ignore the thieving aspect of the culture.
Some don't know how they want to express it at first, but later incorporate it into their characters once they've had time to develop them.

I don't think all elves need to have the coded abilities of a burglar or pickpocket in order to express this aspect of their culture.

*Tribe members are obsessed with their own tribal PCs.  This is weird.  I for example don't really care if your elven PC has been around longer than my elven PC.  Except by personal OOC agreement you don't outrank me, or if you do we're not in the same chain of command.  At the risk of sounding standoffish, I'm not that interested in RPing with you simply because we're in the same tribe.  Remember, this is my tribe too and my character has just as many NPC connections as you do.  My character may be a new PC, but he's not a new elf.  If you're interested in bullying join the Byn, and if you're interested in social climbing join House Kadius.

This has not been my experience at all. The last desert elf character I had began play at age 70-something and despite being 0 days played he was treated by all the other tribal PC's with care and respect in deference to his years.

I also disagree with you in the sense that I am interested in RP'ing with you simply because we're in the same tribe. I rolled up a tribal to be part of a group, and even if our characters dislike one another, that tension that creates while still being forced to cling to each other for protection and survival is an interesting form of interaction for me. Some of the most entertaining moments of my tribal role play came from these inner tribe conflicts.

*Not enough respect for the mercantile class from the warrior classes. I'm sorry, but this is just how desert elves work.

My 70-something year old elf was a merchant. I didn't feel disrespected in the tribe but your mileage may vary depending on what tribe I suppose. This seems ok to me. If the tribe puts a huge emphasis on trade them merchants are going to be well respected in that tribe.

If the tribe eschews trade with outsiders and has a military bent merchants may be less respected. Seems reasonable to me.

*Tribal solidarity between elven tribes - this is inappropriate.  Remember, rival desert elves are known scammers.

I view this as very appropriate in the context of tribal elves vs. non-elves. It reminds me of the Armed Forces. When I was in the Marines, I would shit talk the Army, Navy, and Air Force. If we were all at a bar a fight just might break out. However, the moment a civilian tries to get involved, all of us would band together against the civilian because quite frankly ... they aren't part of the club. Yes we fight internally, but that's our business.

*Too many desert elf tribal PCs treat human tribal PCs as punching bags.  If anything, you should view tribal human PC as being more bad-assed than your tribal elven PC, despite any real or perceived coded differences.

It seems strange to me to say the elves should assume humans are better than they are. I ... very much doubt that's the case.
However, in the past I have seen desert elf characters treating tribal humans as if they were any other outsider and trying to ban them from the 'Pah, etc. And when that tribal human tried to explain that they were from the 'Pah but just part of a virtual tribe, the elf character didn't care. And yes I found that to be poor RP.

*PC desert elves should be *encouraged* by staff to engage city humans.  Desert elves are in the game, in my opinion, primarily to *add* flavor not to hide out in the woods.

I think it depends on which tribe. Some tribes are very pro-trade and go into the cities a lot. Some are very xenophobic and do not. In the case of my character from 2 years ago, despite being in a clan that was incredibly pro-trade, he never learned sirihish and never stepped foot in a city for the year+ that I was playing him. I got all my RP interaction from role play with other tribals out in the 'Pah, and had a grand old time.

*I plan to post the current desert elf tribal guidelines from the (open-source) docs for reference below in their entirety, please feel free to do this ahead of me.

Please do, and highlight the parts you disagree with so I have a better idea of what you're talking about.

[Is Friday]

I think the hyper-aggro treatment of tribal humans is about the only thing that I've found to be a "problem". This imo stems from not having enough to do as a delf, depending on the status of plots or activity in their tribe. Delves are generally not provided many things to struggle/compete against, so sometimes there's a jerk that rolls delves simply to harass tribal humans. Which isn't very sensible, since the Pah is full of tribal humans, both NPC and VNPC. But no one can really punish the delf if he offs some freshly rolled tribal humans.

[Inks]

I think Delf docs are too restrictive regarding where they can go, but would prefer them to be more aggressive or have a RF esque tribe in the canyons of waste/ east of the salt flats.

Forgot to say that was a really good read.

[Mordiggian]

Two playable tribes have essentially unfettered access to approximately half of the Known World and the other playable tribe has access to basically everywhere they please.

[roughneck]

I think the hyper-aggro treatment of tribal humans is about the only thing that I've found to be a "problem". This imo stems from not having enough to do as a delf, depending on the status of plots or activity in their tribe. Delves are generally not provided many things to struggle/compete against, so sometimes there's a jerk that rolls delves simply to harass tribal humans. Which isn't very sensible, since the Pah is full of tribal humans, both NPC and VNPC. But no one can really punish the delf if he offs some freshly rolled tribal humans.

This is best solved by a the coded human tribal clan having a badass that the delves that can creates fear or earns respect.

But from an rp point, it is weird when you see a delf run past several human npc tribals, but take issue with the pc.

[Inks]

That tribe is fairly peaceful though. That answers the first part but not the second.

Not a hate cycle for me, I just prefer playing a city elf than a delf.

[shadeoux]

Two playable tribes have essentially unfettered access to approximately half of the Known World and the other playable tribe has access to basically everywhere they please.

Stricken from evidence...
(Sorry)

Elves can do whatever they want in their lands. If you don't like it, leave, or defend yourself. As far as human tribals and the Pah, The NPC's are scattered in every part of the Pah, it would be poor RP to single out a PC, UNLESS, the human tribal brought it upon themselves doing something stupid that the elves considered taboo.

[Is Friday]

....UNLESS, the human tribal brought it upon themselves doing something stupid that the elves considered taboo.

Like hunting skeet or durrit. 

[Mordiggian]

People should stop making the assumption that the world has not changed since they last experienced certain parts of it.

[Majikal]

*The newer tribal cultural guidelines seem more like restrictions than they do as stimulating source material.  In at least one case, I feel that the newer material serves only to enforce the more stereotypical aspects of tribal role-play rather than providing a framework for constructing living, breathing three-dimensional dynamic characters.
Hmmm, while I personally don't care for two of the three open d-elf tribes, just not my style. The documentation is pretty robust and awesome, and when you dive into those roles fully I find it pretty awesome what can come of it. The role is exactly what you make of it.
*Too many players tend to treat the Tablelands as their personal PKing sandbox.  This is against the docs.  If anything, 0-karma characters should usually be left alone.  Charging protection money?  Makes plenty of sense.  Likewise with harassment.  Obviously, disrespect from outsiders is subject to retaliation.  But if anything you should be looking to scam and hustle visitors while providing them with an enjoyable visit, not try to act like the Taliban of the Table-lands.
The tablelands aren't kittens and sunshine, desert elves and tribals that hide themselves away in a part of the world and claim it as their own. Your 0karma city-dude probably ought to know better than to go stomping in someone's backyard.
*No effort to scam or hustle people - I blame the staff for this though, there isn't really enough coded support for desert elven thieves.  Remember, all desert elves are thieves.
Multiple avenues of theft, my elven pc's rarely if ever used 'stealing shit' as their method of theft. A bad trade, a double-cross, a fake friendship using your skills, using a friendship for information, using a friendship to get closer to someone else, etc etc.
*Tribe members are obsessed with their own tribal PCs.  This is weird.  I for example don't really care if your elven PC has been around longer than my elven PC.  Except by personal OOC agreement you don't outrank me, or if you do we're not in the same chain of command.  At the risk of sounding standoffish, I'm not that interested in RPing with you simply because we're in the same tribe.  Remember, this is my tribe too and my character has just as many NPC connections as you do.  My character may be a new PC, but he's not a new elf.  If you're interested in bullying join the Byn, and if you're interested in social climbing join House Kadius.
I understand the gripe here, but that 50 day ranger in your clan might know a bit more about the current state of things than the 1hr ranger, maybe feel out your clanmates and understand they're in a role that maybe had a very different 'feel' due to prior pc's in the clan or whatever, sometimes you should just play along until your pc is established. I've experienced players stepping into a pack of long-lived delves and wanting to run the show at 1hr playtime, despite things the established group had in play. This usually just mucked up the show for everyone involved, those pc's that got their pc acclimated to the tribe and it's current pc's tended to have more fun.
*Not enough respect for the mercantile class from the warrior classes. I'm sorry, but this is just how desert elves work.
Lots of times merchant d-elves come across as a Kadian in elf-skin, that's what is jarring to me. I've never experienced a lack of respect for desert elf merchants though, perhaps this is an isolated incident.
*Tribal solidarity between elven tribes - this is inappropriate.  Remember, rival desert elves are known scammers.
Even the Red Fangs had friends(gross), pretty sure all parties involved back in that day were fucking over the other. Just because tribes seem to be playing nicey nice doesn't mean they're not scammin the other, playing nice for mutual gain is still a win if it's benefitting your tribe, still very elven. Also, desert elf tribes tend to be a bit more iso than most roles. Most players here want to roleplay with other pcs, talkin with other d-elves can just be nice sometimes.
*Too many desert elf tribal PCs treat human tribal PCs as punching bags.  If anything, you should view tribal human PC as being more bad-assed than your tribal elven PC, despite any real or perceived coded differences.
A desert elf viewing a tribal human as more badass than them? #elvenpride.
*PC desert elves should be *encouraged* by staff to engage city humans.  Desert elves are in the game, in my opinion, primarily to *add* flavor not to hide out in the woods.
Hiding in the woods is adding flavor. Arrows add flavor. Being scared of a place is adding flavor to the game, being uncomfortable when you're lone hunter gets ran up on by a strange, tall, savage elf with a spear is adding a fuckton of flavor to the game. If a d-elf wants to interact with a pc, they can and they will.. this is player driven and has nothing to do with staff. Nor should staff encourage/enforce this kind of rp.


As a lover of d-elves, I enjoyed the grittiness of some of the tribes, I enjoy the us against the world vibe, and maybe I'm just lucky but I seemed to always have excellent staff support on any projects I wanted to kick off while playing in one of the roles. Every tribe I've played in had lots of upward mobility (weren't people complaining about a lack of this awhile back?) and the role, like any other, is exactly what you make it.

[Desertman]

I like the current setup for desert elves.

I think they are just fine as is.

But, I remember playing them back when you didn't even have to have a coded tribe and could be a lone-tok desert elf.

Compared to then the desert elf setup we have now is leaps and bounds better.

Things can always be better I guess so I won't argue against improvement. I just don't see any real issues with the setup we have now. I've interacted with desert elves recently from more than one tribe and have found the experience to be non-restrictive and enjoyable every time.

I can even think of a few desert elves from around a year and a half ago that were just awesome.

If there's a big desert elf "breaking the game" or "breaking the desert elf experience" issue happening...it isn't happening with any I have seen in the last two years.

(If the problem is one you would only experience by actually BEING a desert elf, you have me there. I haven't played one in a bit.)

[Mordiggian]

(If the problem is one you would only experience by actually BEING a desert elf, you have me there. I haven't played one in a bit.)

I've found that usually when people have issues with desert elves on the GDB, they haven't played one in a bit*.   







*in a bit: anywhere from two to eight years

[shadeoux]

(If the problem is one you would only experience by actually BEING a desert elf, you have me there. I haven't played one in a bit.)

I've found that usually when people have issues with desert elves on the GDB, they haven't played one in a bit*.   
*in a bit: anywhere from two to eight years

DING DING DING!!!

Shameless plug! Even if you have 0 Karma, come hither, ask for documentation for the various Delf tribes via the request tool. If then you find one of the three tribes something you would be interested in, put in a request to see what spots if any are open within the tribes and then spec app one. If you've the Karma to outright roll one. I think you should, we are getting some awesome RPT's and Love you just didn't see in the past to often.

[Jingo]

I have played a desert elf. I Was tutored by Hot_dancer in the ways of the elf. (may he run forever on the dunes)

I have a fucking problem with the way desert elves are played.

Because they don't own any lands (minus one ic case). And because you can't take back the stupid killing that results in your tribe getting wiped out.

[Mordiggian]

If ownership is an extension of one's ability to enforce dominance over a person, place, or thing, some elves might debate you on that

It sounds like you are particularly bothered by something that might have occurred in the past, so if it's something you want to discuss with staff, I'd encourage you to shoot me a request!

[Jingo]

Nevermind the fact that elves are supposed to be nomads that share their hunting ground with several other tribes. They can only claim a piece of land once they actually have the presence to keep other tribes or hunters off it. Which they can't, they don't have the manpower. And the moment they make that claim, a dozen or even a hundred tribes might be able to contest them. (except for in that ic case)

And yeah. It isn't one in character event that's coloring my opinion. It's dozens. It's every time someone gets arrowed through the city gates. Or near a legion of milita. Or a clanned pc gets threatened/killed by big-dick-elf mcranger. Even being told that you're not allowed to travel along the dol-takar to trade with the outpost is pretty silly.

[shadeoux]

Nevermind the fact that elves are supposed to be nomads that share their hunting ground with several other tribes. They can only claim a piece of land once they actually have the presence to keep other tribes or hunters off it. Which they can't, they don't have the manpower. And the moment they make that claim, a dozen or even a hundred tribes might be able to contest them. (except for in that ic case)

And yeah. It isn't one in character event that's coloring my opinion. It's dozens. It's every time someone gets arrowed through the city gates. Or near a legion of milita. Or a clanned pc gets threatened/killed by big-dick-elf mcranger. Even being told that you're not allowed to travel along the dol-takar to trade with the outpost is pretty silly.

I think you have misconstrued ideas on the elven way of life in the desert. Each tribe has a different way of doing things. Sure some fall in order to what you suggest, but for the most part, many don't. Might I make a suggestion, and pick a tribe, read the docs, play them and if they don't fall in line with what you think should be happening, be the change. Play it like how you interpret the documentation, and if anyone has a problem with it then, send in a question/request/complaint to the powers that be.

-=-

Something else you may want to consider, is maybe humans don't make so good as tribal/nomads, and elves make far superior ones imho.
While humans grew strong as well as lazy inside city walls, the Desert Elves grew strong not relying upon the very thing that made the humans strong in their minds. After several generations of defending the lands they hunt and grew up on, to allow an outsider to walk in and take food from the mouths of the children and resources they rely and trade others, is bad to the elves and for the intruder, who more than likely will end up dead.

-=-

Pot shots from bows at a distance.

In many instances I can see this working and the shooter getting away with it for a single shot. If they keep plinking away at a stationary npc/pc target at the gates or similar spot it's bad RP. Send in a request/complaint to the powers that be again. Be mindful though, it will not be an instant fix, things take communication and the right personal to get some things done.

On the other hand, if your riding your kank in the middle of the pah hunting/gathering/poaching and you do not belong there. You had BEST expect not only a single arrow, but a volley and every tribe should be kicking your ass out humans included.

[Mordiggian]

Nevermind the fact that elves are supposed to be nomads that share their hunting ground with several other tribes. They can only claim a piece of land once they actually have the presence to keep other tribes or hunters off it. Which they can't, they don't have the manpower. And the moment they make that claim, a dozen or even a hundred tribes might be able to contest them. (except for in that ic case)

PCs can claim lots of things! Whether or not they can back those claims up against other players or the game world (the aforementioned other tribes)... Maybe? Maybe not!

And yeah. It isn't one in character event that's coloring my opinion. It's dozens. It's every time someone gets arrowed through the city gates. Or near a legion of milita. Or a clanned pc gets threatened/killed by big-dick-elf mcranger. Even being told that you're not allowed to travel along the dol-takar to trade with the outpost is pretty silly.

If someone is ignoring the game world (shooting arrows through a city gate) you should send a player complaint. If someone is being mean to you and telling you that you aren't allowed to do something, or perhaps shooting you in the face with arrows... see rule #3 under HELP RULES.

[BadSkeelz]

Something else you may want to consider, is maybe humans don't make so good as tribal/nomads, and elves make far superior ones imho.
While humans grew strong as well as lazy inside city walls, the Desert Elves grew strong not relying upon the very thing that made the humans strong in their minds. After several generations of defending the lands they hunt and grew up on, to allow an outsider to walk in and take food from the mouths of the children and resources they rely and trade others, is bad to the elves and for the intruder, who more than likely will end up dead.

Solution: add more badass human tribes

[shadeoux]

I miss the Benjari!
That was a badassed human tribe.

[Is Friday]

Jimmy on Teampseak:

"EVERYBODY WANTS TO PLAY THEIR GODDAMN INVINCIBLE MOHAWK POWER FANTASY!"

[ibusoe]

Please do, and highlight the parts you disagree with so I have a better idea of what you're talking about.

Αἰτεῖτε, καὶ δοθήσεται ὑμῖν: ζητεῖτε, καὶ εὑρήσετε: κρούετε, καὶ ἀνοιγήσεται ὑμῖν.

DESERT ELF RACIAL HELPFILE:
Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas. Some evidence suggests that this was not always the case, but elves have been very numerous for as far back as anyone can remember. City-elves and desert-elves originate from the same lines, but have diverged in significant ways over time.

All elves stand between around 75 and 96 inches in height and tend to have slim, light frames. Elvish features tend to have less variation than do human features, but a large range does indeed exist: skin color usually falls in the dark, dusky browns to pale cream-colors; hair is typically darker but shares a similar range of hues. Eye color among elves, however, is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and the shape of the eyes is always that of an almond.

Desert elves are very long-limbed runners by nature, and are capable of a prolonged run across any type of terrain for extended periods of time.

As compared to humans, elves have a higher agility (on average), and a somewhat higher wisdom. Due to their light build, though, they are generally less strong and sturdy than humans. All elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act (though they can usually forgive the use of mounts by other races). In other words, elves will never willingly ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.
Notes:

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Playing a Desert Elf is considered a difficult thing to do, and so playing one requires having earned at least one karma.

Desert-elves have the same focus on tribal loyalty, trust and testing, and thievery as an art form as do city-elves. It is highly recommended that you read the city-elf documentation before continuing to read this page, as here we will mainly describe the ways in which desert-elves vary from their city kin, and expand upon a few themes.

Probably the key thing to focus on when playing an elf, is that the elven mind is always looking for a scam, either directed at him or one he can direct at someone else. Elves will be suspicious of anyone that they do not know well enough to trust their lives to. The reasoning is simple. When you spend your entire life looking for ways to screw everyone else over, you expect everyone else to be doing the same to you.
Tribes:

Almost all elves that dwell in the desert belong to a tribe, for there is a dependency upon trusted ones for survival. There are a number of established tribal groups open for play at any time; we do expect you to play your desert elf character in one of these tribes, because the tribal experience is a crucial part of desert-elf roleplay.

The attitudes towards any race, culture, or group will be strongly determined by the tribe you come from. Raider elves are as much a possibility as raider humans. But it's wrong to think that all non-tribe members are the enemy, because that's historically a good way to get your tribe wiped out.

When a desert elf goes out and kills a human tribal, or a citizen of some city, or some gith, or particularly another tribal elf, they are posing the threat of attack on their tribe by an outside force. While elven tribes are generally very self-absorbed as a whole, they are not so foolish as to provoke the ire of so many outsiders that their doom is assured before the passing of another generation. Attacking outsiders is generally only done in self-defense or by necessity, otherwise it is a task taken upon with much discretion.

For the same reason, most desert elves would be wary of over-hunting. Not for ecological reasons, but because if they share the territory with any other tribes, which they probably do, then consuming more than their fair share of resources could create a lot of hostility and territory wars.
Nomadic Wandering:

Elves are nomadic people by nature. It is ingrained in both their culture and their personality. Elves do not like to stay in one place for too long. Some try to explain this by saying they stay out of trouble that way, or because most are hunters and gatherers, or because they love to run... but elves are simply nomadic by nature.

The movement of elven tribes is probably better described as semi-nomadic. They will typically claim a region of the world (i.e. Tablelands, scrub lands, grasslands, Grey Forest, Red Desert, etc.) where they're familiar with the fauna, the neighbors, and the terrain, and stay there. Within that region, their movements may be percieved as nomadic to an outsider, but in reality are probably much more ritualistic, depending on the tribe.

Desert elves are territorial. Once a tribe picks a territory, members of that tribe don't usually leave the area without a good reason, just like most humans spend their entire lives in the city of their choice. These territories might be pretty big, but they're usually restricted to one region, such as the grasslands, the Red Desert, or the tablelands. A tribe of elves may very well move their camp from one side of the grasslands to another on a seasonal basis, but long moves from one end of the known world to the other are very rare and often only inspired by war or other genocidal events. Also, elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked to for safety. The further an elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in.
Elven Pride:

From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge. Because of the long memory elves have for such things, thoughts of revenge can continue for years and years before the opportunity prevents itself. Similarly, if someone treats an elf with respect and even gifts, this will be playing to their strong sense of pride, and will likely make them more favorable towards you. Of course, because of the paranoid nature of elves, this is not always the case.

This pride also plays a role in a tribal elf's relationship with their tribemates. Because the pride makes elves overly sensitive to both insults and compliments, social pressure tends to be a large factor in the politics of a tribe. While insults and compliments can lead to revenge, paranoia, and perceived flattery when they come from outsiders; from tribemates they indicate a sense of social standing - the emotions created by the insults cannot be turned towards revenge, so they instead become turned inward to portray identity within the tribe. When more tribemates respect an individual, that individual becomes more important, and the respect (or lack thereof) that that individual exhibits becomes more influential - and vice versa. The extent of this, and how it interacts with political structure, can vary from tribe to tribe.
Elves and Mounts:

The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with. This aversion to beasts of burden does not extend to pack animals. Most elves have always, and always will rely upon all manner of beasts to carry things around. Similarly, there is no aversion to using beasts as a source of food, as work animals, or in just about any other function other than riding.

Desert-elves have the same focus on tribal loyalty, trust and testing, and thievery as an art form as do city-elves. It is highly recommended that you read the city-elf documentation before continuing to read this page, as here we will mainly describe the ways in which desert-elves vary from their city kin, and expand upon a few themes.

Probably the key thing to focus on when playing an elf, is that the elven mind is always looking for a scam, either directed at him or one he can direct at someone else. Elves will be suspicious of anyone that they do not know well enough to trust their lives to. The reasoning is simple. When you spend your entire life looking for ways to screw everyone else over, you expect everyone else to be doing the same to you.
Tribes:

Almost all elves that dwell in the desert belong to a tribe, for there is a dependency upon trusted ones for survival. There are a number of established tribal groups open for play at any time; we do expect you to play your desert elf character in one of these tribes, because the tribal experience is a crucial part of desert-elf roleplay.

The attitudes towards any race, culture, or group will be strongly determined by the tribe you come from. Raider elves are as much a possibility as raider humans. But it's wrong to think that all non-tribe members are the enemy, because that's historically a good way to get your tribe wiped out.

When a desert elf goes out and kills a human tribal, or a citizen of some city, or some gith, or particularly another tribal elf, they are posing the threat of attack on their tribe by an outside force. While elven tribes are generally very self-absorbed as a whole, they are not so foolish as to provoke the ire of so many outsiders that their doom is assured before the passing of another generation. Attacking outsiders is generally only done in self-defense or by necessity, otherwise it is a task taken upon with much discretion.

For the same reason, most desert elves would be wary of over-hunting. Not for ecological reasons, but because if they share the territory with any other tribes, which they probably do, then consuming more than their fair share of resources could create a lot of hostility and territory wars.
Nomadic Wandering:

Elves are nomadic people by nature. It is ingrained in both their culture and their personality. Elves do not like to stay in one place for too long. Some try to explain this by saying they stay out of trouble that way, or because most are hunters and gatherers, or because they love to run... but elves are simply nomadic by nature.

The movement of elven tribes is probably better described as semi-nomadic. They will typically claim a region of the world (i.e. Tablelands, scrub lands, grasslands, Grey Forest, Red Desert, etc.) where they're familiar with the fauna, the neighbors, and the terrain, and stay there. Within that region, their movements may be percieved as nomadic to an outsider, but in reality are probably much more ritualistic, depending on the tribe.

Desert elves are territorial. Once a tribe picks a territory, members of that tribe don't usually leave the area without a good reason, just like most humans spend their entire lives in the city of their choice. These territories might be pretty big, but they're usually restricted to one region, such as the grasslands, the Red Desert, or the tablelands. A tribe of elves may very well move their camp from one side of the grasslands to another on a seasonal basis, but long moves from one end of the known world to the other are very rare and often only inspired by war or other genocidal events. Also, elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked to for safety. The further an elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in.
Elven Pride:

From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge. Because of the long memory elves have for such things, thoughts of revenge can continue for years and years before the opportunity prevents itself. Similarly, if someone treats an elf with respect and even gifts, this will be playing to their strong sense of pride, and will likely make them more favorable towards you. Of course, because of the paranoid nature of elves, this is not always the case.

This pride also plays a role in a tribal elf's relationship with their tribemates. Because the pride makes elves overly sensitive to both insults and compliments, social pressure tends to be a large factor in the politics of a tribe. While insults and compliments can lead to revenge, paranoia, and perceived flattery when they come from outsiders; from tribemates they indicate a sense of social standing - the emotions created by the insults cannot be turned towards revenge, so they instead become turned inward to portray identity within the tribe. When more tribemates respect an individual, that individual becomes more important, and the respect (or lack thereof) that that individual exhibits becomes more influential - and vice versa. The extent of this, and how it interacts with political structure, can vary from tribe to tribe.
Elves and Mounts:

The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with. This aversion to beasts of burden does not extend to pack animals. Most elves have always, and always will rely upon all manner of beasts to carry things around. Similarly, there is no aversion to using beasts as a source of food, as work animals, or in just about any other function other than riding.

One part of your request puzzled me, which is that you requested to know what part of the docs I disagreed with.  Disagreed with?  *Chuckles*.  I'm probably what would be termed an "Ultra Orthodox" player in the sense that I maintain a religious stringency of adherence to my particular interpretation of the docs.  If anything, I'm a notch up from that - I play like dadaist interpretations of ultra orthodox documentation fidelity, although I don't think this is precisely what you're asking.  I tend to think of the docs as somewhat of a covenant between players and staff, for example "as long as you're faithfully following the docs, the staff shouldn't feel welcome to criticize you," not that I've any recent run in with the Powers that Be.  For the most part a bunch of cool cats.

I took a survey a couple of years ago and only found four places, in all of the docs, where I substantially "disagreed" with what was written.  In two of the cases these disagreements amount to what is essentially typos - I've no reason to think that if I troubled myself to point out these problems, the staff wouldn't immediately correct them.  Some of the original language appears to have survived in the docs way back to the time (circa fifteen years ago?) when Armageddon was actually a hack and slash MUD.

In another case I found something that is pretty much contradicted in at least two other places by other stuff in the docs and is contrary to the way that most of us play, and in the last case I've a problem with one help file where one particular guideline is internally problematic and really appears to contradict common sense.

That's it.  Otherwise the docs really seem pretty reasonable.  I've give the above another read tomorrow but I don't see anything substantial in the Desert Elf docs that should require correcting.

Thanks for posting, by the way.  Unless you object I'll go point for point with you on parts of what you're written, probably tomorrow.

[ibusoe]

I have no problem with tribal characters in the tablelands keeping non-tribal characters out. I don't think this is against the documentation.
The way I see it, your land is your resource, and having other people come into your land to hunt and forage there would be a big issue for two reasons.
One: Cities have huge appetites and if they take too much from the land your people will be going hungry.
Two: It destroys your economic trading power to allow other people to come into your land and harvest your resources for free instead of buying them from you.

I enjoy the idea that if you go mucking around in the backyard of the wild tribes you are taking your life into your hands.

Thank you for taking the time to outline your reasoning.  As far as I can tell, your reasoning passes several important barriers for validity, for example it's logical, internally consistent and tactically sound.

I disagree with you because I think that your response, which your saying should typify the desert elf view of the table lands, should rather typify the desert human view of the table lands.  Why?

In my interpretation of elves, elves are too thrill-seeking (in terms of their desire to steal) to practice the level of resource conservancy, intra-tribal solidarity and strategic resource defense that yes, probably should typify the human tribes for the reasons that you've outlined above.  I'll concede that there's nothing in the docs to substantiate this claim.  Simply, I tend to think of elves as being largely similar to real life Gypsies. 

This has not been my experience at all. The last desert elf character I had began play at age 70-something and despite being 0 days played he was treated by all the other tribal PC's with care and respect in deference to his years.

I also disagree with you in the sense that I am interested in RP'ing with you simply because we're in the same tribe. I rolled up a tribal to be part of a group, and even if our characters dislike one another, that tension that creates while still being forced to cling to each other for protection and survival is an interesting form of interaction for me. Some of the most entertaining moments of my tribal role play came from these inner tribe conflicts.

I thank you for your honesty however I think a key point is that I don't consent to this.  It has long been held as controversial, for reasons that have never been outlined, in this game that players who don't get along with each other can simply avoid each other.
Do I dislike you?  No.  I'll concede that I don't know you super well but based on your posts you certainly seem like the guy whom I'd get along with in real life, even the the sort of person I'd enjoy playing Armageddon alongside.  I do believe at present that our visions of what should be happening inside of an desert elven clan are prohibitive of us reasonably role-playing together inside of one. 

I view this as very appropriate in the context of tribal elves vs. non-elves. It reminds me of the Armed Forces. When I was in the Marines, I would shit talk the Army, Navy, and Air Force. If we were all at a bar a fight just might break out. However, the moment a civilian tries to get involved, all of us would band together against the civilian because quite frankly ... they aren't part of the club. Yes we fight internally, but that's our business.

Totally LOL'd at this one.  I grew up near a military base.  I totally know what you're talking about.  I can agree that most of the marines that I hung out with were all cool individually, but when you put more than two of them in a room together they did magically stop being my friend.  LOL, crazy marines!

I think this aspect of the Tablelands is better expressed through the human tribes.  Human politics are not of interest, in my interpretation of the docs, to desert elves.  Desert elves would rather be stealing.  See above.  Several other players have alluded to the possibility that the human tribals should probably be more bad-assed.

Please feel free to counterpoint any of the above.  I'm learning more about the way that some of you guys play desert elves. 

[musashi]

One part of your request puzzled me, which is that you requested to know what part of the docs I disagreed with.

When you wrote:

The newer tribal cultural guidelines seem more like restrictions than they do as stimulating source material.  In at least one case, I feel that the newer material serves only to enforce the more stereotypical aspects of tribal role-play rather than providing a framework for constructing living, breathing three-dimensional dynamic characters.

I took that to mean there were parts of the docs you disagreed with. Maybe I misunderstood.

I took a survey a couple of years ago and only found four places, in all of the docs, where I substantially "disagreed" with what was written.

I wanna take an Armageddon docs survey 
I have also found some typos or contradictions in the docs for the tribe I played in, but I brought them to staff's attention and Nyr fixed corrected and clarified. I don't think those things are in the docs by design, they are almost always oversights you can bring to the staff's attention to get fixed.

Thanks for posting, by the way.  Unless you object I'll go point for point with you on parts of what you're written, probably tomorrow.

Sure, I'll wait till you're finished to reply. Seemed like you were typing something up while I was writing this.

[BadSkeelz]

I have no problem with tribal characters in the tablelands keeping non-tribal characters out. I don't think this is against the documentation.
The way I see it, your land is your resource, and having other people come into your land to hunt and forage there would be a big issue for two reasons.
One: Cities have huge appetites and if they take too much from the land your people will be going hungry.
Two: It destroys your economic trading power to allow other people to come into your land and harvest your resources for free instead of buying them from you.

I enjoy the idea that if you go mucking around in the backyard of the wild tribes you are taking your life into your hands.

Thank you for taking the time to outline your reasoning.  As far as I can tell, your reasoning passes several important barriers for validity, for example it's logical, internally consistent and tactically sound.

I disagree with you because I think that your response, which your saying should typify the desert elf view of the table lands, should rather typify the desert human view of the table lands.  Why?

In my interpretation of elves, elves are too thrill-seeking (in terms of their desire to steal) to practice the level of resource conservancy, intra-tribal solidarity and strategic resource defense that yes, probably should typify the human tribes for the reasons that you've outlined above.  I'll concede that there's nothing in the docs to substantiate this claim.  Simply, I tend to think of elves as being largely similar to real life Gypsies. 

This has not been my experience at all. The last desert elf character I had began play at age 70-something and despite being 0 days played he was treated by all the other tribal PC's with care and respect in deference to his years.

I also disagree with you in the sense that I am interested in RP'ing with you simply because we're in the same tribe. I rolled up a tribal to be part of a group, and even if our characters dislike one another, that tension that creates while still being forced to cling to each other for protection and survival is an interesting form of interaction for me. Some of the most entertaining moments of my tribal role play came from these inner tribe conflicts.

I thank you for your honesty however I think a key point is that I don't consent to this.  It has long been held as controversial, for reasons that have never been outlined, in this game that players who don't get along with each other can simply avoid each other.
Do I dislike you?  No.  I'll concede that I don't know you super well but based on your posts you certainly seem like the guy whom I'd get along with in real life, even the the sort of person I'd enjoy playing Armageddon alongside.  I do believe at present that our visions of what should be happening inside of an desert elven clan are prohibitive of us reasonably role-playing together inside of one. 

I view this as very appropriate in the context of tribal elves vs. non-elves. It reminds me of the Armed Forces. When I was in the Marines, I would shit talk the Army, Navy, and Air Force. If we were all at a bar a fight just might break out. However, the moment a civilian tries to get involved, all of us would band together against the civilian because quite frankly ... they aren't part of the club. Yes we fight internally, but that's our business.

Totally LOL'd at this one.  I grew up near a military base.  I totally know what you're talking about.  I can agree that most of the marines that I hung out with were all cool individually, but when you put more than two of them in a room together they did magically stop being my friend.  LOL, crazy marines!

I think this aspect of the Tablelands is better expressed through the human tribes.  Human politics are not of interest, in my interpretation of the docs, to desert elves.  Desert elves would rather be stealing.  See above.  Several other players have alluded to the possibility that the human tribals should probably be more bad-assed.

Please feel free to counterpoint any of the above.  I'm learning more about the way that some of you guys play desert elves. 

Old Testament Armageddon

[Majikal]

Those docs are like two decades old.. not too long after the days when Gith ran Red Storm Village, Mantis chilled in Tuluk. Yeesh.  

[musashi]

In my interpretation of elves, elves are too thrill-seeking (in terms of their desire to steal) to practice the level of resource conservancy, intra-tribal solidarity and strategic resource defense that yes, probably should typify the human tribes for the reasons that you've outlined above.  I'll concede that there's nothing in the docs to substantiate this claim.  Simply, I tend to think of elves as being largely similar to real life Gypsies.

I take my reasoning from this documentation:

... Attacking outsiders is generally only done in self-defense or by necessity, otherwise it is a task taken upon with much discretion.

For the same reason, most desert elves would be wary of over-hunting. Not for ecological reasons, but because if they share the territory with any other tribes, which they probably do, then consuming more than their fair share of resources could create a lot of hostility and territory wars.

The way I reason it: If my desert elf sees another tribal human resource gathering in the 'Pah, I'm going to leave them alone because I don't want to provoke the ire of other tribes and cause trouble for my own.

But if my desert elf sees a city dweller out doing the same thing, I'm going to feel empowered to challenge them because they're the outsider. They are taking resources out of the 'Pah and if enough of them do this and there isn't enough food to go around for all the tribals living there, it could create a lot of hostility and territory wars over resources. Wars that these city dwelling rangers won't care or be involved in. In this, I feel I have all the justification I need to be out raged at non tribal hunters rolling through my tribe's backyard.

I think that this reasoning can seem nonsensical to players on the receiving end of the arrow. They probably think to themselves: Really?! I just got griefed over a durrit hide!?!?! There'll be another durrit in the same spot in like 15 minutes!!! GRAWH!!!

But I encourage everyone to remember that just because the game's code will spawn foragable goods and mobs to skin ad infinitum, in role play, the resources are supposed to be finite.

I thank you for your honesty however I think a key point is that I don't consent to this.  It has long been held as controversial, for reasons that have never been outlined, in this game that players who don't get along with each other can simply avoid each other.

By all means, if you aren't enjoying playing with someone else you're free to avoid them. We play the game for enjoyment purposes. I'll quickly outline the story that my character was a part of.

I was playing a tribal shaman, the other person was playing a tribal ranger. We did not get along. The PC's in the clan were split into two cliques, I was in one group and she was in the other. Her clique decided that for the good of the tribe they needed to murder a merchant who was part of my clique and they tried to do so while they were supposed to be protecting said merchant on a run into one of the cities. They failed. The merchant got away and told me. I told the clan's head shaman NPC, he told me to find the traitors and tear our their souls and make them invent a new, more serious word for suffering. Then the clan's chief NPC intervened and the whole tribe had a big pow wow at the camp fire where the would be murderers were judged, punished, and officially forgiven. That whole story arc was a big, entertaining deal that involved staff support, really cool role play, and lots of tension.

After it was over, the next chapter of that saga began. My character HATED the ranger even after she was forgiven by the chief. Time went on. Other PC's came and went till she and I were now the old timers and the new group had no idea why we loathed each other so much. She would come sit down at the campfire and my shaman would literally spit at her, call her the shame of his blood, and get up and leave. We didn't do a lot of inter acting with one another directly in those days but our lingering feelings towards one another created a lot of RP opportunity for the new blood who would try to mend the wounds ... or pick a side ... or whatever.

Eventually, that ranger died defending a group of newer rangers from a batch of kyrl that attacked them on a hunt. I sent in player kudos outlining how much fun having that rivalry through the IG years had been, and in death, my shaman finally gave in and acknowledged that his old enemy had in fact earned her placed among their people. He led her funeral ritual and stood among her friends in solidarity to mourn her death.

To me, this was an amazing story, and it is what defined my desert elf as a person. I'm very grateful to the player of that ranger my shaman rivaled with, although our interactions were almost always antagonistic, she played a crucial role in my character's story and I'd like to think, mine in hers as well.

When I say good RP can come from tension just as easily as from friendships in game, that is what I'm thinking about.

Totally LOL'd at this one.  I grew up near a military base.  I totally know what you're talking about.  I can agree that most of the marines that I hung out with were all cool individually, but when you put more than two of them in a room together they did magically stop being my friend.  LOL, crazy marines!

I think this aspect of the Tablelands is better expressed through the human tribes.  Human politics are not of interest, in my interpretation of the docs, to desert elves.  Desert elves would rather be stealing.  See above.  Several other players have alluded to the possibility that the human tribals should probably be more bad-assed.

When I was a Marine, my loyalty in these situations followed different tiers.

Fellow Marines from my Unit > fellow Marines from a different unit > fellow Marines from out of town > the Navy > the Army > the Air Force > the Coast Guard > everyone else.

Who I was going to side with in the bar fight basically followed the above structure. Given the information contained in the elven roleplay help file, I figure that for my desert elf characters the chart probably looks something like:

My friends in my tribe > my clan mates > other elven tribes > other tribes in the 'pah I have to share territory with > other tribes in general vs city dwellers > people from the pits.

You seem to have said that you don't think politics of human tribals or human cities should matter to desert elves, but I think the docs directly contradict you in the passage I already quoted above. I think that elves do care to the extent that said politics affect the well being of their own tribe. That is to say, where Kurac does its hunting shouldn't bother the desert elves one bit until Kurac decides to do its hunting in their lands.

Hope this helps to clarify.

[musashi]

And, to briefly add (after that wall of text above):

Several other players have alluded to the possibility that the human tribals should probably be more bad-assed.

May I point out that before their stronghold was utterly destroyed, people did nothing but complain about how overpowered the gypsies were? I think that whenever any particular group gains power in the game world, people start to complain about it.

Having said that though, as I understand it IG events over the last few years have had strong deleterious consequences for a chunk of the coded, playable human tribes leaving them severely weakened while the playable desert elf tribes have not suffered similar hardships. Well, the RF's did ... but their hardship was so extreme you can't even play them anymore so I wasn't counting that.

I can see how this might lead to a situation where it feels like human tribals are getting shit on by elves from the perspective of anyone on the ground, and I think it would be a nice addition to the 'Pah to have a coded human tribe out there with comparable levels of power.

Also, as I understand it playable human tribes are far more nomadic than desert elf tribes are. All the playable human tribes' camps actually codedly relocate periodically to entirely different regions of the Known do they not? To the best of my knowledge no desert elf camp does this, and the elven role play documentation points out that desert elves are quite territorial and rarely leave their one region of the known, even if they might be quite semi-nomadic within it.

So when you say:

In my interpretation of elves, elves are too thrill-seeking (in terms of their desire to steal) to practice the level of resource conservancy, intra-tribal solidarity and strategic resource defense that yes, probably should typify the human tribes for the reasons that you've outlined above.  I'll concede that there's nothing in the docs to substantiate this claim.  Simply, I tend to think of elves as being largely similar to real life Gypsies.  

I want to point out that not only is there nothing in the docs to substantiate that ... there are things in the docs that directly contradict it.

[Jingo]

PCs can claim lots of things! Whether or not they can back those claims up against other players or the game world (the aforementioned other tribes)... Maybe? Maybe not!

PC's can do all sorts of things. Yeah we know that. But do they represent the political reality of the game world? Can you spit on a noble without consequence in the cities? If you kill an officer from the city states, shouldn't they be marching a unit of infantry to the the tribal encampment the very next day?

If someone is ignoring the game world (shooting arrows through a city gate) you should send a player complaint. If someone is being mean to you and telling you that you aren't allowed to do something, or perhaps shooting you in the face with arrows... see rule #3 under HELP RULES.

I did that actually, I believe. I was not only told that the player was legit for killing me one room from a npc army of soldiers but also that I shouldn't whine about it. Thanks for the nonsense at the end there, totally not asinine.

The way I reason it: If my desert elf sees another tribal human resource gathering in the 'Pah, I'm going to leave them alone because I don't want to provoke the ire of other tribes and cause trouble for my own.

But if my desert elf sees a city dweller out doing the same thing, I'm going to feel empowered to challenge them because they're the outsider. They are taking resources out of the 'Pah and if enough of them do this and there isn't enough food to go around for all the tribals living there, it could create a lot of hostility and territory wars over resources. Wars that these city dwelling rangers won't care or be involved in. In this, I feel I have all the justification I need to be out raged at non tribal hunters rolling through my tribe's backyard.

I think that this reasoning can seem nonsensical to players on the receiving end of the arrow. They probably think to themselves: Really?! I just got griefed over a durrit hide!?!?! There'll be another durrit in the same spot in like 15 minutes!!! GRAWH!!!

This is basically justification for the above power fantasy. The docs dont say: "Okay we don't kill tribal humans but city humans BUT CITY HUMANS ARE FREE GAME!" They say that you don't kill without a very good reason, ever. Somebody hunting in the same area you hunt isn't a good reason. Not when there is probably half a hundred hunters in "your lands" hunting right now. What does it matter when only a handful of them might be from the nearby city?

But it's really not a problem with documentation. It's a problem with players. Nobody wants to think about the political reality of desert living.

Your tribe consists of just a hundred souls fed by the tip of your spear, their existence is always a tenuous thing just a few lost could result in the slow death of your people. They live in a place that harbors a plurality of competing tribes, where any misstep, any misinterpretation of intent could result in a feud. Or a professional army at your doorstep. Or any number of revenge seekers who might desire the blood of your best and swiftest. There might be some posturing over resources, I bet most elven tribals would test the boundaries too see what they get. But again, that would be about getting as much as they can for nothing. If an outsider's blood were spilled, now the whole clan is in jeopardy. The offending runner would have to be disciplined (possibly by death) while the tribal elders desperately try to smooth the transgression over to avoid conflict.

This is always how I play my desert elves. But who who wants to do that? MOHAWK POWER FANTASY GO. ARREH ARREH ARREH

[musashi]

This is basically justification for the above power fantasy. The docs dont say: "Okay we don't kill tribal humans but city humans BUT CITY HUMANS ARE FREE GAME!" They say that you don't kill without a very good reason, ever. Somebody hunting in the same area you hunt isn't a good reason. Not when there is probably half a hundred hunters in "your lands" hunting right now. What does it matter when only a handful of them might be from the nearby city?

I believe that protecting the resources of your area constitutes a good reason, and a commoner from the city state has no influence or tribe to back them up if they are victimized. If a GMH decided to move in and start harvesting resources in tribal lands it would be a much bigger deal and the tribes would be more careful in their reaction.

That said, I've never seen desert elves in my time resort to murder as a first result. The MO was always to approach the person or way them first threatening them to leave. Combat ensued if the lone hunter wanted to play out their own "mohawk power fantasy" as you call it.

Your tribe consists of just a hundred souls fed by the tip of your spear, their existence is always a tenuous thing just a few lost could result in the slow death of your people. They live in a place that harbors a plurality of competing tribes, where any misstep, any misinterpretation of intent could result in a feud. Or a professional army at your doorstep. Or any number of revenge seekers who might desire the blood of your best and swiftest. There might be some posturing over resources, I bet most elven tribals would test the boundaries too see what they get. But again, that would be about getting as much as they can for nothing. If an outsider's blood were spilled, now the whole clan is in jeopardy. The offending runner would have to be disciplined (possibly by death) while the tribal elders desperately try to smooth the transgression over to avoid conflict.

See above. Commoners from the city states don't have any protection from said city states when they leave the walls unless they are part of the city's government in some capacity.

[Patuk]

In my interpretation of elves, elves are too thrill-seeking (in terms of their desire to steal) to practice the level of resource conservancy, intra-tribal solidarity and strategic resource defense that yes, probably should typify the human tribes for the reasons that you've outlined above.  I'll concede that there's nothing in the docs to substantiate this claim.  Simply, I tend to think of elves as being largely similar to real life Gypsies

At times in prehistorical research, the question comes up of why homo sapiens survived where the neanderthals died out.

It's really easy to go for explanations like 'they were too stupid'or something similar, but human amd neanderthal brain size aren't even that much different, and archaeological evidence shows that the tools used by neanderthals just about match those of homo sapiens, which would suggest there being more at play here.

Some people point to things like neanderthal tongues being unable to vocalise many words or somesuch, but the theory I've always liked is that of age: neanderthals, to a fault, seem to mever have lived very far past the age of forty, whereas there are corpses of prehistoric homo sapiens who lived well past sixty. Those twenty extra years would allow homo sapiens to perform tasks that required more specific skills, as well as pass them on to further generations.

I think we can carry this theory over to Zalanthas pretty easily.

A young elf might be brash and adventurous, sure. A young elf is therefor also at risk of getting the shit kicked out of him by people next door and deciding that, okay, it might be the coolest thing ever to bring back one of those sweet leaf-bladed spears from the twin tail tribe, but beatings kinda hurt so next time watch out.

This essentially means that an elf of the age of forty is about as fit as a human in his late twenties, while having had more than a decade of extra years of being conscious and responsible enough that the dumbass got beaten out of them. Couple this with a family that is genetically predisposed to immensely care about you and want the best for you no matter what, and said same culture making sure the elf himself is going to always, no matter what else, think of his tribe's wellbeing.. I just dont't see elves being the daredevils you make them out to be.

Also, elf wisdom is way lower than the elf docs promise. Wtf guys?

[Jingo]

This is basically justification for the above power fantasy. The docs dont say: "Okay we don't kill tribal humans but city humans BUT CITY HUMANS ARE FREE GAME!" They say that you don't kill without a very good reason, ever. Somebody hunting in the same area you hunt isn't a good reason. Not when there is probably half a hundred hunters in "your lands" hunting right now. What does it matter when only a handful of them might be from the nearby city?

I believe that protecting the resources of your area constitutes a good reason, and a commoner from the city state has no influence or tribe to back them up if they are victimized. If a GMH decided to move in and start harvesting resources in tribal lands it would be a much bigger deal and the tribes would be more careful in their reaction.

That said, I've never seen desert elves in my time resort to murder as a first result. The MO was always to approach the person or way them first threatening them to leave. Combat ensued if the lone hunter wanted to play out their own "mohawk power fantasy" as you call it.

Your tribe consists of just a hundred souls fed by the tip of your spear, their existence is always a tenuous thing just a few lost could result in the slow death of your people. They live in a place that harbors a plurality of competing tribes, where any misstep, any misinterpretation of intent could result in a feud. Or a professional army at your doorstep. Or any number of revenge seekers who might desire the blood of your best and swiftest. There might be some posturing over resources, I bet most elven tribals would test the boundaries too see what they get. But again, that would be about getting as much as they can for nothing. If an outsider's blood were spilled, now the whole clan is in jeopardy. The offending runner would have to be disciplined (possibly by death) while the tribal elders desperately try to smooth the transgression over to avoid conflict.

See above. Commoners from the city states don't have any protection from said city states when they leave the walls unless they are part of the city's government in some capacity.

Who says they don't? Just because the PC population -probably- won't retaliate doesn't mean it's a good idea. Does that commoner have family? A regular crew? Any number elf haters who might be a part of his social network and try to take revenge? Who says that one more dead hunter is the last straw and  templar x decides to pacify the hinterlands? Your desert elf doesn't know and he should be hyper-conscious that he doesn't know. Because again. How many deaths does it take to spell the end of your tribe? Five of your best hunters? And why is that a risk your desert elf would be willing to take?

As far as resources are concerned, they are shared between a plurality of tribes in the tablelands. Everyone seems to forget that when only desert elf pc's are represented. So when "resources" is common between maybe 50 hunters, why does your desert elf care there might two or three that come from beyond? You certainly can't stop them. There is no gateman on the north road that says "ears or gtfo". The best you can do is pick on the one that you can find. And why not just give him a friendly reminder to take his hides and his business to the blackwing outpost before they leave? It honestly seems to me that "resources" are a slim as fuck ooc justification here.

[musashi]

Who says they don't? Just because the PC population -probably- won't retaliate doesn't mean it's a good idea. Does that commoner have family? A regular crew? Any number elf haters who might be a part of his social network and try to take revenge? Who says that one more dead hunter is the last straw and  templar x decides to pacify the hinterlands? Your desert elf doesn't know and he should be hyper-conscious that he doesn't know. Because again. How many deaths does it take to spell the end of your tribe? Five of your best hunters? And why is that a risk your desert elf would be willing to take?

I believe it's common knowledge that unaffiliated commoners are not powerful influential people. Especially unaffiliated commoners who have to do their own grebbing. Could it have consequences if the elf makes a mistake? Yes. And I think those should be played out in game if they come to pass, but usually the commoner doesn't, and no consequences come. This doesn't seem like a broken system to me. It seems to be working as intended.

As far as resources are concerned, they are shared between a plurality of tribes in the tablelands. Everyone seems to forget that when only desert elf pc's are represented. So when "resources" is common between maybe 50 hunters, why does your desert elf care there might two or three that come from beyond? You certainly can't stop them. There is no gateman on the north road that says "ears or gtfo".

Yes the resources are shared between a plurality of tribes. That's why I said my desert elf wouldn't harass another tribal (human, elf, or otherwise) who was hunting there.

The best you can do is pick on the one that you can find. And why not just give him a friendly reminder to take his hides and his business to the blackwing outpost before they leave? It honestly seems to me that "resources" are a slim as fuck ooc justification here.

I think most people do this. As I said above, it's usually when the indie hunter wants to get lippy and confrontational or they've been caught more than once that they catch an arrow.

[Jingo]

Gotta always be baddest of the bad I guess.

[Rathustra]

Elf players in cities want elf tribes to be more badass. Human players in the wastes want human tribes to be more badass.

[Patuk]

'All opinions are equal so if people disagree you're all wrong to do so'

[Eurynomos]

I was wrong once, but I think I was mistaken.

[Desertman]

Every desert elf I have ever played:

[Patuk]

Being wrong is the internet's cardinal sin, only slightly more grave than not seeding torrents. It is well-known.

[Majikal]

Stir it. Stir it!


I think this thread mostly just gives people the wrong idea about the current state of desert elves, it's outdated information and isolated incidents of what maybe was poor roleplay (nobody has all sides of the story), staff can get all sides and that's what player complaints/questions are for. Updated documentation and dedicated staff has done wonders for that section of the game, I plan on diving back into delves soon because of it, our indie team rocks. Also, remember it's generally the first non-0 karma class that our new players earn and elves in general are difficult to wrap your mind around (but most fulfilling when . Many players don't understand the elven/tribal mindset, many veteran players don't understand the elven mindset/tribal mindset in general.

[shadeoux]

Stir it. Stir it!


I think this thread mostly just gives people the wrong idea about the current state of desert elves, it's outdated information and isolated incidents of what maybe was poor roleplay (nobody has all sides of the story), staff can get all sides and that's what player complaints/questions are for. Updated documentation and dedicated staff has done wonders for that section of the game, I plan on diving back into delves soon because of it, our indie team rocks. Also, remember it's generally the first non-0 karma class that our new players earn and elves in general are difficult to wrap your mind around (but most fulfilling when . Many players don't understand the elven/tribal mindset, many veteran players don't understand the elven mindset/tribal mindset in general.

Lets combine all the current tribes into one  and see what happens....
BlackSun Soh'Ta Var Or BSV

[ibusoe]

Stir it. Stir it!


I think this thread mostly just gives people the wrong idea about the current state of desert elves, it's outdated information and isolated incidents of what maybe was poor roleplay (nobody has all sides of the story), staff can get all sides and that's what player complaints/questions are for. Updated documentation and dedicated staff has done wonders for that section of the game, I plan on diving back into delves soon because of it, our indie team rocks. Also, remember it's generally the first non-0 karma class that our new players earn and elves in general are difficult to wrap your mind around (but most fulfilling when . Many players don't understand the elven/tribal mindset, many veteran players don't understand the elven mindset/tribal mindset in general.

Just PM'd you.

Strongly disagree. 

You're presenting me a catch-22.

Game rules prevent me from commenting on the current state of affairs, so I'm necessarily talking about situations that are at least a year old. 

Don't like this?  This is the way you've structured things.  I understand people like you want to shut this sort of discussion down, but that's really just another form of bullying.  Plenty of other people are having fun on this thread and I'm personally learning a lot, have made at least one friend with someone I didn't like before because of this thread.  Sorry to call you out on this but you're blocking progress. 

[Mordiggian]

This thread presents some outdated information and contributes to the inaccurate ideas some people have about desert elves. If you feel the need to discuss specifics, please do so with staff, via the request tool. We do not discuss account specific information on the GDB anymore and it puts us at an unpleasant communication disadvantage when we try to get a back-and-forth going about something a player might have an issue with, only to have them vaguely cite specific events on the GDB while avoiding a direct request tool dialogue with us.

You guys are welcome to discuss desert elves, and where you think they (a general they, no specifics) are lame, or ways you think they might improve.

You guys are not welcome to accuse people you don't like of trolling, and you aren't welcome to level insults and vitriol at other posters, be they player or staff.

[ibusoe]

This thread presents some outdated information and contributes to the inaccurate ideas some people have about desert elves. If you feel the need to discuss specifics, please do so with staff, via the request tool. We do not discuss account specific information on the GDB anymore and it puts us at an unpleasant communication disadvantage when we try to get a back-and-forth going about something a player might have an issue with, only to have them vaguely cite specific events on the GDB while avoiding a direct request tool dialogue with us.

You guys are welcome to discuss desert elves, and where you think they (a general they, no specifics) are lame, or ways you think they might improve.

You guys are not welcome to accuse people you don't like of trolling, and you aren't welcome to level insults and vitriol at other posters, be they player or staff.

Read you loud and clear, Sir.  I'll tone it down.  Thanks for not simply locking my thread!!

<3

[musashi]

Gotta always be baddest of the bad I guess.

Everyone wants to be the main character in an RPG.

There is one other area where I think people's perception on desert elves is skewed: how powerful they are as a race.

Desert elves get some neat perks as a race, no doubt about it. But I don't think their racial abilities or attribute rolls is what gives them the ability to dominate people in combat situations. In my experience, the reason for that was much more mundane.

A desert elf is a fairly isolated role. There just aren't that many other tribal people prowling around the 'Pah compared to Allanak so you are on your own for large stretches of your play time. What do you do when you have no one else to RP with? You grind. I strongly think the reason desert elves tend to be so badass pretty much comes down to not having a tavern to sit in.

[Is Friday]

I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Pah home, to run out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone.

At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Mohawk's Gloriousness-every man of them. That is the will of Elders and the Pah.

The Sun Runners and the Soh Lanah Kah, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil and rights to mohawks, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.

Even though large tracts of Zalanthas and many old and famous dank Arm memes have fallen or may fall into the grip of the GDB whiners and all the odious apparatus of Nyrtannical rule, we shall not flag or fail.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in the Red,
we shall fight on the silt and docks,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Pah, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the silt beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the barrens and in the Post,
we shall fight in the mesa;
we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Pah or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our mudsex partners in offpeak, armed and guarded by there being no staff online, would carry on the struggle, until, in good time, the New Armageddon, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

[Majikal]

If a DESERT elf...
HAS A BABY
with a CITY elf...
Does that baby have dual sneak/hide?

[musashi]

I just realized I love your signature Majikal.

[Majikal]

I just realized I <3 you Musashi.

[ibusoe]

Original Poster's Note: This thread has been immensely valuable to me, I found out that I've been playing desert elves completely wrong for pretty much most of a decade. Went ahead and modified my original post to reflect this.

I took that to mean there were parts of the docs you disagreed with. Maybe I misunderstood.

No, you were perfectly clear, it was I who misunderstood. The actual docs that I didn't like were the "extended tribal source material" docs from the second re-org relative to the time that I started playing. As far as I know, those are classified? I don't think I'm allowed to post them, and at any rate I didn't save a copy of them so I don't have them. Are you authorized to post them? If so you're welcome to. If you're authorized to forward me a copy of something, I'll cheerfully have a look at it. Regardless, I no longer think I disagree with these docs, several smarter players than me seem to be quite big fans of these docs and I make it a point not to argue with people smarter than me. If I can help you in any way, please be direct. Please advise.

The way I reason it: If my desert elf sees another tribal human resource gathering in the 'Pah, I'm going to leave them alone because I don't want to provoke the ire of other tribes and cause trouble for my own.

But if my desert elf sees a city dweller out doing the same thing, I'm going to feel empowered to challenge them because they're the outsider. They are taking resources out of the 'Pah and if enough of them do this and there isn't enough food to go around for all the tribals living there, it could create a lot of hostility and territory wars over resources. Wars that these city dwelling rangers won't care or be involved in. In this, I feel I have all the justification I need to be out raged at non tribal hunters rolling through my tribe's backyard.

I think that this reasoning can seem nonsensical to players on the receiving end of the arrow. They probably think to themselves: Really?! I just got griefed over a durrit hide!?!?! There'll be another durrit in the same spot in like 15 minutes!!! GRAWH!!!

But I encourage everyone to remember that just because the game's code will spawn foragable goods and mobs to skin ad infinitum, in role play, the resources are supposed to be finite.

Yeah, by this point I don't see any fault, no matter how minor, with the way that you play desert elves. You probably play them a bit more aggressively than I prefer to, but at this point I'd say your interpretation of d-elves is 100% inline with the docs, the way that I understand them.

It seems we have a few remaining articles related to life in the Tablelands, though. For starters, I don't see desert elves being that territorial about the Tablelands. Should Desert Elves have a role in nature conservancy? You've made a point that they should, and if you choose to play your character this way I don't think that you're at all wrong to do so. But before we go any further, let's look at the life of criminals in the Commoner's Quarter of Allanak.

When I started playing, the people playing the Arm in the Commons were way too heavy handed. As such, most criminals simply refused to play there. As such, the Commons became way too safe. As a result, the Militia started to whine that they have nothing to do.

Nowadays?   Things are much better. The Militia people are playing as well as I've ever seen Legionairres played in this game. They allow (tolerate, pretend not to notice) a certain background level of crime from street people, and turn a blind eye to some of the quieter criminals who hide out in the Commons because they ply their crimes elsewhere. Let's say that the Soldier dudes unofficially decide that there's to be allowed like six active criminal players, maybe three street rats and three gangsters or something. Whatevs, it's up to them. After some time, a couple of new criminals move in. These new guys should have time to get acclimated. But suddenly there's a few too many criminals? What to do, eh? If the situation doesn't soon correct itself, the Soldiers job would then become to decide which of the existing population to prune, either muscling some of the criminals out, or arresting them or killing them (should they so choose), according to their decisions. This is beautiful. This is the machinery running exactly as it should.

Are things now running like this in the Tablelands? According to Mordiggan they are, and I've no reason to think this is not correct. Rather, I would just want it expressed that a population of city humans should be allowed into the Tablelands and then pruned as needed. Trust me, staring at my character from a few screens away is absolutely sending me a message.

In my interpretation of the Tablelands, the Tablelands are a lot wilder and whoolier than the Vrun Driath. To me, it's not like there's a lot of scarcity in the Tablelands. To me, it's more like the Tablelands are dangerous *because* nature is so healthy there. Nature is trying to eat you.

The Tablelands should be more dangerous because the hegemony of the city-states doesn't extend there, opening the area up for raiders. If anything, the presence of a couple of desert elves should be a bit comforting to a city guy, because at least desert elves keep the raiders away. True enough, desert elves are never going to be all that friendly, at least in a genuine sense, and will represent a threat of their own.

By all means, if you aren't enjoying playing with someone else you're free to avoid them. We play the game for enjoyment purposes. I'll quickly outline the story that my character was a part of.

I was playing a tribal shaman, the other person was playing a tribal ranger. We did not get along. The PC's in the clan were split into two cliques, I was in one group and she was in the other. Her clique decided that for the good of the tribe they needed to murder a merchant who was part of my clique and they tried to do so while they were supposed to be protecting said merchant on a run into one of the cities. They failed. The merchant got away and told me. I told the clan's head shaman NPC, he told me to find the traitors and tear our their souls and make them invent a new, more serious word for suffering. Then the clan's chief NPC intervened and the whole tribe had a big pow wow at the camp fire where the would be murderers were judged, punished, and officially forgiven. That whole story arc was a big, entertaining deal that involved staff support, really cool role play, and lots of tension.

After it was over, the next chapter of that saga began. My character HATED the ranger even after she was forgiven by the chief. Time went on. Other PC's came and went till she and I were now the old timers and the new group had no idea why we loathed each other so much. She would come sit down at the campfire and my shaman would literally spit at her, call her the shame of his blood, and get up and leave. We didn't do a lot of inter acting with one another directly in those days but our lingering feelings towards one another created a lot of RP opportunity for the new blood who would try to mend the wounds ... or pick a side ... or whatever.

Eventually, that ranger died defending a group of newer rangers from a batch of kyrl that attacked them on a hunt. I sent in player kudos outlining how much fun having that rivalry through the IG years had been, and in death, my shaman finally gave in and acknowledged that his old enemy had in fact earned her placed among their people. He led her funeral ritual and stood among her friends in solidarity to mourn her death.

To me, this was an amazing story, and it is what defined my desert elf as a person. I'm very grateful to the player of that ranger my shaman rivaled with, although our interactions were almost always antagonistic, she played a crucial role in my character's story and I'd like to think, mine in hers as well.

When I say good RP can come from tension just as easily as from friendships in game, that is what I'm thinking about.

Actually, that story is beyond good role play, that story is kind of awesome. I love a good story. Thank you for sharing that particular one.

Yeah, I think that's good and I'm really starting to understand you as a player, but now that I've conceded your point, I want to stand by my point that if you're interested in bullying, you're better off in the Byn. If you're interested in social climbing, you're better off in House Kadius. If you're interested in infighting, isn't like Borsail the place for that? What makes the story you presented, is that it appears that infighting was consensual on some level. Very cool.

One thing that I think desert elf peeps don't understand, is that inside of a tribe, we're like third-cousins at most. Life is tough on the tribal dudes, so their lifestyle doesn't accommodate beggars and freeloaders. My point? My character has a job in the clan, and that job is needed. If you're stopping my huntie character from hunting? I'm going to complain to my boss (probably my mother or something). She's friends with your mother. These kinds of conflicts tend to be resolved pretty darn quickly. At the higher echelons, should their be elbows thrown as people jockey for status? Oh, heck yeah. I just think this kind of stuff shouldn't apply to the little guys.

Anyways, thanks for being patient enough to correct my ideas. I've learned a lot from this, and can only hope that I'm one day lucky enough to play in the same tribe as you. I think that I've still got a lot left to learn.

EDIT:  Wanted to point out that I've thought of one situation that Desert Elves probably should take exception to, which would be hunting tons of stuff for export. 

[ibusoe]

At times in prehistorical research, the question comes up of why homo sapiens survived where the neanderthals died out.

It's really easy to go for explanations like 'they were too stupid'or something similar, but human amd neanderthal brain size aren't even that much different, and archaeological evidence shows that the tools used by neanderthals just about match those of homo sapiens, which would suggest there being more at play here.

Some people point to things like neanderthal tongues being unable to vocalise many words or somesuch, but the theory I've always liked is that of age: neanderthals, to a fault, seem to mever have lived very far past the age of forty, whereas there are corpses of prehistoric homo sapiens who lived well past sixty. Those twenty extra years would allow homo sapiens to perform tasks that required more specific skills, as well as pass them on to further generations.

I think we can carry this theory over to Zalanthas pretty easily.

A young elf might be brash and adventurous, sure. A young elf is therefor also at risk of getting the shit kicked out of him by people next door and deciding that, okay, it might be the coolest thing ever to bring back one of those sweet leaf-bladed spears from the twin tail tribe, but beatings kinda hurt so next time watch out.

This essentially means that an elf of the age of forty is about as fit as a human in his late twenties, while having had more than a decade of extra years of being conscious and responsible enough that the dumbass got beaten out of them. Couple this with a family that is genetically predisposed to immensely care about you and want the best for you no matter what, and said same culture making sure the elf himself is going to always, no matter what else, think of his tribe's wellbeing.. I just dont't see elves being the daredevils you make them out to be.

Also, elf wisdom is way lower than the elf docs promise. Wtf guys?

Wow, thanks!  Damn, this is deep.  Okay, assuming you're right, and I'm well-nigh convinced that you are, my one complaint about your theory, is that it seems to assume that elves live longer than humans, rather than assuming that they simply have the capacity to live longer than humans. 

*Do* elves live longer than humans, or have I gotten that wrong as well??

[Doublepalli]

I agree with tribal human pc's being treated like utter Shit or I'd without reason. Its been over a year so I can say this, but one of the last seiks I ever played, while decked out in seik gear and tattoos, had a desert elf run up and ok my guy with no to after looking at me, while I was hunting a skeet for dinner. Leagues away from camp.

[musashi]

It seems we have a few remaining articles related to life in the Tablelands, though. For starters, I don't see desert elves being that territorial about the Tablelands. Should Desert Elves have a role in nature conservancy? You've made a point that they should, and if you choose to play your character this way I don't think that you're at all wrong to do so.

I consider them quite territorial because of the information in the help files on desert elf role play:

Desert elves are territorial. Once a tribe picks a territory, members of that tribe don't usually leave the area without a good reason, just like most humans spend their entire lives in the city of their choice. These territories might be pretty big, but they're usually restricted to one region, such as the grasslands, the Red Desert, or the tablelands. A tribe of elves may very well move their camp from one side of the grasslands to another on a seasonal basis, but long moves from one end of the known world to the other are very rare and often only inspired by war or other genocidal events. Also, elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked to for safety. The further an elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in.

My desert elf characters never ventured into cities, never learned sirihish, and rarely left their tribe's territory. Some never even left the camp although I wouldn't advise that, it can be pretty isolated and boring if your own tribe isn't hopping.

As for having a role in nature conservation, the docs say that elves don't necessarily care about the environment innately the way I believe mantis do ... but rather they are mindful of over hunting so as to avoid sparking resource wars with other tribes. Some tribes may care about the environment for the environment's sake, depending on their tribal docs, but others might not.

But before we go any further, let's look at the life of criminals in the Commoner's Quarter of Allanak.

Hmm. I have never thought of desert elves as the militia of the wild outdoors. But I think the militia can be quite territorial as well no? How much crime does the militia of Allanak tolerate inside the areas they actually care about like the templar and noble quarters? I agree that militia soldiers ought to be indifferent to the areas of Allanak where the powerless and un-influential reside, but I don't think that's a good comparison to a desert elf's territory.

What makes the story you presented, is that it appears that infighting was consensual on some level. Very cool.

I thought it was very cool as well, but I'd be lying if I said it was all, always consensual. I remember some corresponding clan board discussions from around the same time the tone of which made it clear tempers were running high OOC'ly as well as IC'ly. But after the heat of the moment has passed good players can usually hug it out and let the IG conflict continue without it feeling like an OOC attack as well.

I agree with tribal human pc's being treated like utter Shit or I'd without reason. Its been over a year so I can say this, but one of the last seiks I ever played, while decked out in seik gear and tattoos, had a desert elf run up and ok my guy with no to after looking at me, while I was hunting a skeet for dinner. Leagues away from camp.

I haven't heard anyone even try to defend this behavior. I've called it out as poor RP myself. I don't know if I would file a player complaint about it because there could be IC reasons for it, but I would absolutely alert staff to what had happened so that they could then make the game world react to it. I don't imagine the Seik elders would take kindly to another tribe targeting their hunters. Sabers should start to rattle and the elf responsible should feel the consequences of their actions.

[Patuk]

At times in prehistorical research, the question comes up of why homo sapiens survived where the neanderthals died out.

It's really easy to go for explanations like 'they were too stupid'or something similar, but human amd neanderthal brain size aren't even that much different, and archaeological evidence shows that the tools used by neanderthals just about match those of homo sapiens, which would suggest there being more at play here.

Some people point to things like neanderthal tongues being unable to vocalise many words or somesuch, but the theory I've always liked is that of age: neanderthals, to a fault, seem to mever have lived very far past the age of forty, whereas there are corpses of prehistoric homo sapiens who lived well past sixty. Those twenty extra years would allow homo sapiens to perform tasks that required more specific skills, as well as pass them on to further generations.

I think we can carry this theory over to Zalanthas pretty easily.

A young elf might be brash and adventurous, sure. A young elf is therefor also at risk of getting the shit kicked out of him by people next door and deciding that, okay, it might be the coolest thing ever to bring back one of those sweet leaf-bladed spears from the twin tail tribe, but beatings kinda hurt so next time watch out.

This essentially means that an elf of the age of forty is about as fit as a human in his late twenties, while having had more than a decade of extra years of being conscious and responsible enough that the dumbass got beaten out of them. Couple this with a family that is genetically predisposed to immensely care about you and want the best for you no matter what, and said same culture making sure the elf himself is going to always, no matter what else, think of his tribe's wellbeing.. I just dont't see elves being the daredevils you make them out to be.

Also, elf wisdom is way lower than the elf docs promise. Wtf guys?

Wow, thanks!  Damn, this is deep.  Okay, assuming you're right, and I'm well-nigh convinced that you are, my one complaint about your theory, is that it seems to assume that elves live longer than humans, rather than assuming that they simply have the capacity to live longer than humans. 

*Do* elves live longer than humans, or have I gotten that wrong as well??

Elves have about 50% longer lifespans than humans do. Arm's age code means that this also means elves take longer to grow and such, which I sorta find a shame, but even so elves do flat-out live longer than humans do.

[CodeMaster]

At times in prehistorical research, the question comes up of why homo sapiens survived where the neanderthals died out.

It's really easy to go for explanations like 'they were too stupid'or something similar, but human amd neanderthal brain size aren't even that much different, and archaeological evidence shows that the tools used by neanderthals just about match those of homo sapiens, which would suggest there being more at play here.

Some people point to things like neanderthal tongues being unable to vocalise many words or somesuch, but the theory I've always liked is that of age: neanderthals, to a fault, seem to mever have lived very far past the age of forty, whereas there are corpses of prehistoric homo sapiens who lived well past sixty. Those twenty extra years would allow homo sapiens to perform tasks that required more specific skills, as well as pass them on to further generations.

I think we can carry this theory over to Zalanthas pretty easily.

A young elf might be brash and adventurous, sure. A young elf is therefor also at risk of getting the shit kicked out of him by people next door and deciding that, okay, it might be the coolest thing ever to bring back one of those sweet leaf-bladed spears from the twin tail tribe, but beatings kinda hurt so next time watch out.

This essentially means that an elf of the age of forty is about as fit as a human in his late twenties, while having had more than a decade of extra years of being conscious and responsible enough that the dumbass got beaten out of them. Couple this with a family that is genetically predisposed to immensely care about you and want the best for you no matter what, and said same culture making sure the elf himself is going to always, no matter what else, think of his tribe's wellbeing.. I just dont't see elves being the daredevils you make them out to be.

Also, elf wisdom is way lower than the elf docs promise. Wtf guys?

Wow, thanks!  Damn, this is deep.  Okay, assuming you're right, and I'm well-nigh convinced that you are, my one complaint about your theory, is that it seems to assume that elves live longer than humans, rather than assuming that they simply have the capacity to live longer than humans.  

*Do* elves live longer than humans, or have I gotten that wrong as well??

Elves have about 50% longer lifespans than humans do. Arm's age code means that this also means elves take longer to grow and such, which I sorta find a shame, but even so elves do flat-out live longer than humans do.

Dwarves live even longer, which means they have to live quite a few years before they're even the equivalent of a human 13 year old.

Taking longer to grow is a detriment if you start your characters young, but it also means more game years spent in the prime of your stats -- which might mean something if you play your character close to the wire, which I'd imagine is often the case for desert elves.

[Alesan]

Dwarves live even longer, which means they have to live quite a few years before they're even the equivalent of a human 13 year old.

Taking longer to grow is a detriment if you start your characters young, but it also means more game years spent in the prime of your stats -- which might mean something if you play your character close to the wire, which I'd imagine is often the case for desert elves.

Do stats properly adjust with age into adulthood? As in, will you grow into the same stats you would have gotten if you rolled the character as a "prime of life" age? I've read posts on this board that suggests this isn't the case, which would make rolling a young character detrimental to overall progress.

[CodeMaster]

Dwarves live even longer, which means they have to live quite a few years before they're even the equivalent of a human 13 year old.

Taking longer to grow is a detriment if you start your characters young, but it also means more game years spent in the prime of your stats -- which might mean something if you play your character close to the wire, which I'd imagine is often the case for desert elves.

Do stats properly adjust with age into adulthood? As in, will you grow into the same stats you would have gotten if you rolled the character as a "prime of life" age? I've read posts on this board that suggests this isn't the case, which would make rolling a young character detrimental to overall progress.

Some years ago Morgenes said he tested it and it's working as expected.

But I've had some more thoughts on this since my last post, so here they are:  if it's coded up as your character having a "base" roll (e.g., representing his/her prime) with penalties/bonuses for age, then it's probably a trivial piece of code to get right, and I would bet money the system is coded correctly.

If there is no base roll and it's coded up as your character having a random chance of receiving stat adjustments each year, then these kinds of stochastic processes are very hard to get right -- and easy to think you have it right when you have it wrong.  You can have situations where averages line up, but variances diverge, or otherwise numbers that "look" the same through the lens of standard summary statistics, but are from altogether different distributions.  So if this is how it's coded, I wouldn't be quite as confident -- especially since players keep mentioning things aren't quite right (which I really can't weigh in on).

[edit: removed excessive text]

Anyway... I thought Patuk's post was really informative.

The issue of age and patience in elves is an interesting topic that I haven't seen discussed in much detail.  From memory, your standard D&D elves were described as leading exceedingly long lives and having more patience (and wisdom) as a result.  But in Dark Sun, the elves have drastically shortened lifespans, and are described as eschewing hard work and living "for the day", and tend to be thieves and raiders.

I generally associate poaching and overhunting as a kind of theft -- which Dark Sun and Zalanthan elves are all about.  It might be helpful if the documents clarified that they only tend to steal what people view as personal possessions.

[whitt]

It might be helpful if the documents clarified that they only tend to steal what people view as personal possessions.

Except that would be entirely not true.

[BadSkeelz]

Yeah, elven theft is a philosophical concept with many more facets more than the physical act of taking.

Fortunately, the docs do say elves are idiots and will steal ever more challenging things simply for bragging rights, so them poaching a territory to the point of wasteland because "pride bro" does make a twisted sort of sense.

[musashi]

When I was playing a desert elf, some of my tribe mates stole one of the tables from a tavern in Tuluk.

Staff was not amused.

[CodeMaster]

It might be helpful if the documents clarified that they only tend to steal what people view as personal possessions.

Except that would be entirely not true.

Yeah, sorry.  I didn't mean to say that's how things actually are.  More like, if you accept that elves are out to steal everything in general, how can you not expect them to poach?  Raid?  Overhunt?  Deplete ground water?  Expand and mark off territory through campaigns of harassment and agile guerrilla warfare?  The idea of a tribal elder telling everyone, "Now hold on pilgrims, let's try not to upset anyone" doesn't jive.

[musashi]

It might be helpful if the documents clarified that they only tend to steal what people view as personal possessions.

Except that would be entirely not true.

Yeah, sorry.  I didn't mean to say that's how things actually are.  More like, if you accept that elves are out to steal everything in general, how can you not expect them to poach?  Raid?  Overhunt?  Deplete ground water?  Expand and mark off territory through campaigns of harassment and agile guerrilla warfare?  The idea of a tribal elder telling everyone, "Now hold on pilgrims, let's try not to upset anyone" doesn't jive.

I don't think elves are so obsessed with stealing that they are willing to destroy themselves and their entire tribe over it.

I imagine that when it comes to poaching and over hunting as a form of thievery ... they love it so long as they're doing it in someone else's territory. It's not hard for me to imagine them having a "don't shit where you eat" policy.

[Synthesis]

It might be helpful if the documents clarified that they only tend to steal what people view as personal possessions.

Except that would be entirely not true.

Yeah, sorry.  I didn't mean to say that's how things actually are.  More like, if you accept that elves are out to steal everything in general, how can you not expect them to poach?  Raid?  Overhunt?  Deplete ground water?  Expand and mark off territory through campaigns of harassment and agile guerrilla warfare?  The idea of a tribal elder telling everyone, "Now hold on pilgrims, let's try not to upset anyone" doesn't jive.

I don't think elves are so obsessed with stealing that they are willing to destroy themselves and their entire tribe over it.

I imagine that when it comes to poaching and over hunting as a form of thievery ... they love it so long as they're doing it in someone else's territory. It's not hard for me to imagine them having a "don't shit where you eat" policy.

What is the point of having a racial bent toward thievery if they also behave perfectly rationally?

Tall, skinny, fast humans.

[Patuk]

Elves aren't one-dimensional permanent incorrigible kleptomaniacs who will brag about stealing a Templar's toe socks to a crowd of soldiers. Elves are those guys who will always hold their in-group's interests as their number one priority as their highest interest no matter what. The documentation is very, very clear about stealing from/screwing over tribesmates being not done, and dumb shit like making durrit go extinct in your ancestral homes or making sure your neighbours send over fifty angry dudes with spears because you were an idiot is grounds for a communal beatdown, not for a round of beers and hifives.

Theft is elven culture, not the sole reason of their existence. Like human culture, it's something you can start honing and perfecting as you can spend more time and resources on it. Becoming a pickpocket(or a thug, or a snake oil salesman, or a usurer..) esentially means you went pro, so to say, and elves may be fond of doing so, but when given the choice between their tribe's survival and pulling offf a really sweet heist, elves generally are gonna pick the former. The ones that don't end up dead or cast out.

[musashi]

What is the point of having a racial bent toward thievery if they also behave perfectly rationally?

Tall, skinny, fast humans.

I totally agree.

And what's the point of having a dwarven focus if you don't pursue it in the most short sighted suicidal and irrational way possible at all times?

Short, stocky, strong humans.  

[Synthesis]

What is the point of having a racial bent toward thievery if they also behave perfectly rationally?

Tall, skinny, fast humans.

I totally agree.

And what's the point of having a dwarven focus if you don't pursue it in the most short sighted suicidal and irrational way possible at all times?

Short, stocky, strong humans.  

Yes, dwarves should do that, if that's what the situation calls for.

I had a 50 or 60 day dwarf ranger whose focus made him unflinchingly loyal to his organization.

He had kind of a semi-newb superior who said, "alright, we're gonna charge in at these two maxed-out krathis."

OOCly I'm in the other window already writing up my next app, but ICly I did it anyway, because that's what dwarves are fucking supposed to do.

[CodeMaster]

And what's the point of having a dwarven focus if you don't pursue it in the most short sighted suicidal and irrational way possible at all times?

Short, stocky, strong humans.  

Rationality is such a loaded term.  Nevertheless it's a term you have to parse through the documentation about these races.  Dwarves, for example,

will not be shaken from their purpose, whatever it might be at the time, even if it means their death

Dwarves are the guys who will break through walls instead of trying to find their way through a maze.  Strongly agree with Synthesis here.

Elves, too:

Theft is desirable simply because it is. If an elf sees something that belongs to someone else, and provides moderate challenge for them, they want to take it - simply for the sake of taking it.

Even 21st century educated earth humans behave irrationally (e.g., overeating) because it's just how we're wired.

[musashi]

Yes, dwarves should do that, if that's what the situation calls for.

I had a 50 or 60 day dwarf ranger whose focus made him unflinchingly loyal to his organization.

He had kind of a semi-newb superior who said, "alright, we're gonna charge in at these two maxed-out krathis."

OOCly I'm in the other window already writing up my next app, but ICly I did it anyway, because that's what dwarves are fucking supposed to do.

Yes I recall my krathi murdering those two  
Didn't have another krathi with me though. Just a ranger buddy who fled the room immediately to escape the blast radius.

But fond memories aside, a human soldier would have reasonably done the same when that's the life you've chosen and you get orders from a superior.

It was certainly suicidal, but I wouldn't call that irrational.

I did read a log once of a dwarf whose focus involved making a metal weapon or something so as a newbie they immediately set out for the dragon at the west gate of Allanak with a chisel and hammer. While amusing in isolation, that would make dwarves incredibly one dimensional gag reels if they all acted in such a short sighted manner.

It would be the same if elves couldn't help but try to "get all" every room they walked into because thievery.

[musashi]

Rationality is such a loaded term.  Nevertheless it's a term you have to parse through the documentation about these races.  Dwarves, for example,

will not be shaken from their purpose, whatever it might be at the time, even if it means their death

Dwarves are the guys who will break through walls instead of trying to find their way through a maze.  Strongly agree with Synthesis here.

Elves, too:

Theft is desirable simply because it is. If an elf sees something that belongs to someone else, and provides moderate challenge for them, they want to take it - simply for the sake of taking it.

Even 21st century educated earth humans behave irrationally (e.g., overeating) because it's just how we're wired.

I think we are having this discussion in the context of whether or not desert elves are able to control their thieving urges when it comes to over hunting in their own territory so as to avoid conflict with neighboring tribes, correct?

In that context:

Theft is desirable simply because it is. If an elf sees something that belongs to someone else, and provides moderate challenge for them, they want to take it - simply for the sake of taking it.

... probably needs to be tempered with:

[...] most desert elves would be wary of over-hunting. Not for ecological reasons, but because if they share the territory with any other tribes, which they probably do, then consuming more than their fair share of resources could create a lot of hostility and territory wars.

Don't you think?

For that matter it wouldn't hurt to temper:

will not be shaken from their purpose, whatever it might be at the time, even if it means their death

with:

It should be something that takes years, perhaps a lifetime, to achieve. [...] A dwarf may do things unrelated to the focus [...] Also, as a general rule, a focus should neither be impossible nor easy - but rather, something that is possibly attainable over a long period of time if it is worked hard upon. The focus should be something your character is not close to achieving - the point of it is that you have to play through the attainment of the focus.

If a dwarf's focus is to kill a templar, I believe the dwarf is capable of realizing that attacking the first one he sees, while possibly the most simplistic and direct path to achieving his focus, has an unacceptable risk factor to go along with it, and thus he's capable of plotting and arranging a situation in which his chances of success are more favorable.

Likewise, while typing get all in every room you enter, and attempting to kill and loot everyone you see is possibly the most simplistic and direct path to expressing the elven penchant for stealing, it also has an unacceptable risk factor, and the elf is capable of plotting and arranging a situation in which chances of success are more favorable.

In addition to that, elves have a sense of tribal solidarity, which is equally as important to them as a race as their desire to steal, I find this is more than enough to justify why they can sometimes refrain from stealing if it means it protects their blood.

[CodeMaster]

This is getting kinda strawmanny.  I imagine anyone can prioritize whatever parts of the desert-elf roleplay docs they like and it's probably fine.  I feel like screwing people over (sure -- when they think their tribe can get away with it) is quite high on the totem pole, but to each his/her own.

[musashi]

If I'm following this correctly the conversation started here:

It might be helpful if the documents clarified that they only tend to steal what people view as personal possessions.

Except that would be entirely not true.

Yeah, sorry.  I didn't mean to say that's how things actually are.  More like, if you accept that elves are out to steal everything in general, how can you not expect them to poach?  Raid?  Overhunt?  Deplete ground water?  Expand and mark off territory through campaigns of harassment and agile guerrilla warfare?  The idea of a tribal elder telling everyone, "Now hold on pilgrims, let's try not to upset anyone" doesn't jive.

I imagine screwing people over when it doesn't endanger the survival of their tribe ranks quite high on the totem pole as well.
I can also easily imagine elves being irrationally suicidal with their kleptomania so long as the tribe isn't being directly threatened. An elf running back into the cave full of undead while everyone else is in full retreat because he's not leaving without that dagger that was sitting on the altar, for example.

I could just as easily see the elf retreating like everyone else, but planning another trip when he thinks he can have a better chance of actually getting the dagger.

But I think the docs explain why they don't do the things you outlined above already, without the need to narrow their passion for theft down to only things people view as personal possessions.

[CodeMaster]

You're right musashi

You know, that one line about never consuming more than their "fair share" is kind of strange.  What is one's "fair share" in the lifeless, water-poor wastes of Zalanthas?

Is one's "fair share" enough to ensure survival?  Do tribes in the tablelands never run into the tragedy of the commons?  Are they in a state of perfect harmony and balance?   Eh.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and that line was just written to hint to d-elves not to be robo-hunters.

[musashi]

I bet it's all about the power of politics.

For example, I played in the Sun Runners after the war with the Red Fangs and a big part of our role play at the time revolved around trying to project more strength than we actually had in order to keep Blackwing and the other bigger tribes of the 'Pah from smelling blood in the water and circling like sharks.

Going out and rattling sabers was a directive from the elders, specifically because they were worried about being perceived as hurt and vulnerable by the other groups after that fight.

So in my mind, your "fair share" is probably whatever you can take. Just be careful you don't win so many battles you lose the war.

[Rokal]

Definetly going to have to try playing a D-elf sometime after reading some of the stuff some of the posters made on here.

sounds like lots of fun.