RP Strategy Session - D-Elves the Problem Children

[ibusoe]

EDIT:  I like what Musashi has to say about desert elves (see below) better than I like what I have to say about desert elves, so I'd encourage any newer players to interested parties to read what he's written.  I'll leave the rest of my post unedited below for posterity.

I want to write this post to create a strategy session for ways to improve the gaming experience for and around desert elves.  

While those of you who know me understand I sometimes attempt to discourage push-back or criticism of things that I'm attempting to outline, I'd actually prefer the opposite with this post - I'd like to be welcoming and to gather as much feedback as possible.  If you've been playing for much less time than I have?  It's okay, simply state that and then share your opinion.  Don't have much experience playing desert elves?  No problem, please be upfront about that and then share your opinion anyway.  I personally wish that more of us would see this game as a shared resource and would like nothing better than to enjoy this game with most of you for decades to come.

Half Giant role-play has improved.  Dwarven role-play might very well be on it's way up.  And the current crop of elf-players are like the best that I've seen during my tenure here.  

But to me desert elves are now the problem children.

I'm keenly aware that for many of us, the "correct way" to play the game depends heavily upon what time you started playing, and so I'll outline the progression of desert elves as I see them.  Your mileage may vary and I'm actively soliciting the opinions of people who've had a different experience.

When I started playing, I got the impression that desert elves were forked from city elves for design purposes.  While I'm not suggesting this is how the game evolved, I'm postulating that this is how it *could* have evolved.  So city elf stats would probably not need to be too much different than human-burglar stats, or whatever.  Some city elf playing with the same stats/skills as a human burglar could in many cases have pretty much everything he'd need to survive in his native environment.  Are city elf stats much different than city human stats?  Game rules prevent me from dishing on stuff like this, but if you play a couple of humans and a couple of city elves it's not difficult to figure this stuff out on your own.  

My belief is that desert elf stats are so different from city elf stats because a desert elf player character will *need* much more jacked skills/abilities to survive in their native environment.  It's simply a game balance issue.

So at the time that I started playing, there were a couple of directives from the staff of the day to the players of the day.  Staff had asked players not to simply use their characters as vehicles to explore the remoter regions of the game world, and not to use their characters to simply pwn and grief the 0-karma PCs.  Why would the staff issue these directives?  While their motives might be lost to the ages, one might simply deduce that these particular directives were issued to correct specific problems.  It was in this environment that I learned to play around desert elves.  The desert elves of the day were played by somewhat snobbish players.  Most of them sat around in the Gaj incessantly wearing custom clothing and chattering incessantly making in jokes with senior players.  FULL BLOODED ALLANAKI NOBLES would sit in the Gaj talking to them and sucking up to them.  Back then Desert Elves were much less stand-offish, so for your average twinky-noble if you wanted something from the desert, you would simply place an order with your friendly neighborhood desert elf.  Desert elves were culturally continuous with Allanaki Nobility.  

This changed for me within a couple of months when there was a small number of better-roleplayed desert elves cropped up, these modelled around Native Americans.  This seemed to fit to me, and these guys occupied a niche that I think in my opinion represents the best of the desert elves.  To me, desert elves represent the suburbs of the city-states.   They're not as remote as the gith or the mantis, but they're close enough to the cities as to interact with people from the cities.

Official policy seemed to change after that, based upon my limited perspective which had the unfortunate effect of chasing desert elves completely away from the cities.

Later, staff introduced a controversial measure which in my opinion improved desert elf role-play immensely - they required desert elf players to play in one of the existing tribes.  This bothered me at first but it helped me to boost my own role-play.  

From there things quickly took a turn for the worse.  A well-intentioned complaint from a player that the desert elf documentation effort was too thing prompted a re-org, which resulted in the current over-regulation of desert elf role-play.  This environment has produced some problematic role-play as well as some unnecessary restrictions.  I really feel like the last restructuring did more harm than good which is bound to be difficult for the principles involved to hear.


*The newer tribal cultural guidelines seem more like restrictions than they do as stimulating source material.  In at least one case, I feel that the newer material serves only to enforce the more stereotypical aspects of tribal role-play rather than providing a framework for constructing living, breathing three-dimensional dynamic characters.
*Too many players tend to treat the Tablelands as their personal PKing sandbox.  This is against the docs.  If anything, 0-karma characters should usually be left alone.  Charging protection money?  Makes plenty of sense.  Likewise with harassment.  Obviously, disrespect from outsiders is subject to retaliation.  But if anything you should be looking to scam and hustle visitors while providing them with an enjoyable visit, not try to act like the Taliban of the Table-lands.
*No effort to scam or hustle people - I blame the staff for this though, there isn't really enough coded support for desert elven thieves.  Remember, all desert elves are thieves.
*Tribe members are obsessed with their own tribal PCs.  This is weird.  I for example don't really care if your elven PC has been around longer than my elven PC.  Except by personal OOC agreement you don't outrank me, or if you do we're not in the same chain of command.  At the risk of sounding standoffish, I'm not that interested in RPing with you simply because we're in the same tribe.  Remember, this is my tribe too and my character has just as many NPC connections as you do.  My character may be a new PC, but he's not a new elf.  If you're interested in bullying join the Byn, and if you're interested in social climbing join House Kadius.
*Not enough respect for the mercantile class from the warrior classes. I'm sorry, but this is just how desert elves work.
*Tribal solidarity between elven tribes - this is inappropriate.  Remember, rival desert elves are known scammers.
*Too many desert elf tribal PCs treat human tribal PCs as punching bags.  If anything, you should view tribal human PC as being more bad-assed than your tribal elven PC, despite any real or perceived coded differences.
*PC desert elves should be *encouraged* by staff to engage city humans.  Desert elves are in the game, in my opinion, primarily to *add* flavor not to hide out in the woods.
*I plan to post the current desert elf tribal guidelines from the (open-source) docs for reference below in their entirety, please feel free to do this ahead of me.

Please don't take any of this as edicts.  I'm writing this to stimulate disagreement and discussion.  Please message me personally if you feel the need to do so, I promise that I'm not sensitive about any of what I've written here.  

[Mordiggian]

THE HATE CYCLE CONTINUES

WE MUST EMBRACE SUFFERING AND BURN IT AS FUEL FOR OUR JOURNEY

[musashi]

*The newer tribal cultural guidelines seem more like restrictions than they do as stimulating source material.  In at least one case, I feel that the newer material serves only to enforce the more stereotypical aspects of tribal role-play rather than providing a framework for constructing living, breathing three-dimensional dynamic characters.

I played a desert elf a couple years ago, and then recently played in the same tribe as before. I didn't notice any qualitative differences in the documentation between then and now but you may be referencing a different tribe from the one I played in.

Suffice to say this was not my experience.

*Too many players tend to treat the Tablelands as their personal PKing sandbox.  This is against the docs.  If anything, 0-karma characters should usually be left alone.  Charging protection money?  Makes plenty of sense.  Likewise with harassment.  Obviously, disrespect from outsiders is subject to retaliation.  But if anything you should be looking to scam and hustle visitors while providing them with an enjoyable visit, not try to act like the Taliban of the Table-lands.

I have no problem with tribal characters in the tablelands keeping non-tribal characters out. I don't think this is against the documentation.
The way I see it, your land is your resource, and having other people come into your land to hunt and forage there would be a big issue for two reasons.
One: Cities have huge appetites and if they take too much from the land your people will be going hungry.
Two: It destroys your economic trading power to allow other people to come into your land and harvest your resources for free instead of buying them from you.

I enjoy the idea that if you go mucking around in the backyard of the wild tribes you are taking your life into your hands.

*No effort to scam or hustle people - I blame the staff for this though, there isn't really enough coded support for desert elven thieves.  Remember, all desert elves are thieves.

Some people take the thieving aspect of elven culture in a very literal direction and roll up a burglar or pick pocket.
Other people roll up a merchant and interpret their thieving  as over charging on goods.
Other people roll up warriors and interpret their thieving as stealing lives of the foes they defeat.
Some people largely ignore the thieving aspect of the culture.
Some don't know how they want to express it at first, but later incorporate it into their characters once they've had time to develop them.

I don't think all elves need to have the coded abilities of a burglar or pickpocket in order to express this aspect of their culture.

*Tribe members are obsessed with their own tribal PCs.  This is weird.  I for example don't really care if your elven PC has been around longer than my elven PC.  Except by personal OOC agreement you don't outrank me, or if you do we're not in the same chain of command.  At the risk of sounding standoffish, I'm not that interested in RPing with you simply because we're in the same tribe.  Remember, this is my tribe too and my character has just as many NPC connections as you do.  My character may be a new PC, but he's not a new elf.  If you're interested in bullying join the Byn, and if you're interested in social climbing join House Kadius.

This has not been my experience at all. The last desert elf character I had began play at age 70-something and despite being 0 days played he was treated by all the other tribal PC's with care and respect in deference to his years.

I also disagree with you in the sense that I am interested in RP'ing with you simply because we're in the same tribe. I rolled up a tribal to be part of a group, and even if our characters dislike one another, that tension that creates while still being forced to cling to each other for protection and survival is an interesting form of interaction for me. Some of the most entertaining moments of my tribal role play came from these inner tribe conflicts.

*Not enough respect for the mercantile class from the warrior classes. I'm sorry, but this is just how desert elves work.

My 70-something year old elf was a merchant. I didn't feel disrespected in the tribe but your mileage may vary depending on what tribe I suppose. This seems ok to me. If the tribe puts a huge emphasis on trade them merchants are going to be well respected in that tribe.

If the tribe eschews trade with outsiders and has a military bent merchants may be less respected. Seems reasonable to me.

*Tribal solidarity between elven tribes - this is inappropriate.  Remember, rival desert elves are known scammers.

I view this as very appropriate in the context of tribal elves vs. non-elves. It reminds me of the Armed Forces. When I was in the Marines, I would shit talk the Army, Navy, and Air Force. If we were all at a bar a fight just might break out. However, the moment a civilian tries to get involved, all of us would band together against the civilian because quite frankly ... they aren't part of the club. Yes we fight internally, but that's our business.

*Too many desert elf tribal PCs treat human tribal PCs as punching bags.  If anything, you should view tribal human PC as being more bad-assed than your tribal elven PC, despite any real or perceived coded differences.

It seems strange to me to say the elves should assume humans are better than they are. I ... very much doubt that's the case.
However, in the past I have seen desert elf characters treating tribal humans as if they were any other outsider and trying to ban them from the 'Pah, etc. And when that tribal human tried to explain that they were from the 'Pah but just part of a virtual tribe, the elf character didn't care. And yes I found that to be poor RP.

*PC desert elves should be *encouraged* by staff to engage city humans.  Desert elves are in the game, in my opinion, primarily to *add* flavor not to hide out in the woods.

I think it depends on which tribe. Some tribes are very pro-trade and go into the cities a lot. Some are very xenophobic and do not. In the case of my character from 2 years ago, despite being in a clan that was incredibly pro-trade, he never learned sirihish and never stepped foot in a city for the year+ that I was playing him. I got all my RP interaction from role play with other tribals out in the 'Pah, and had a grand old time.

*I plan to post the current desert elf tribal guidelines from the (open-source) docs for reference below in their entirety, please feel free to do this ahead of me.

Please do, and highlight the parts you disagree with so I have a better idea of what you're talking about.

[Is Friday]

I think the hyper-aggro treatment of tribal humans is about the only thing that I've found to be a "problem". This imo stems from not having enough to do as a delf, depending on the status of plots or activity in their tribe. Delves are generally not provided many things to struggle/compete against, so sometimes there's a jerk that rolls delves simply to harass tribal humans. Which isn't very sensible, since the Pah is full of tribal humans, both NPC and VNPC. But no one can really punish the delf if he offs some freshly rolled tribal humans.

[Inks]

I think Delf docs are too restrictive regarding where they can go, but would prefer them to be more aggressive or have a RF esque tribe in the canyons of waste/ east of the salt flats.

Forgot to say that was a really good read.

[Mordiggian]

Two playable tribes have essentially unfettered access to approximately half of the Known World and the other playable tribe has access to basically everywhere they please.

[roughneck]

I think the hyper-aggro treatment of tribal humans is about the only thing that I've found to be a "problem". This imo stems from not having enough to do as a delf, depending on the status of plots or activity in their tribe. Delves are generally not provided many things to struggle/compete against, so sometimes there's a jerk that rolls delves simply to harass tribal humans. Which isn't very sensible, since the Pah is full of tribal humans, both NPC and VNPC. But no one can really punish the delf if he offs some freshly rolled tribal humans.

This is best solved by a the coded human tribal clan having a badass that the delves that can creates fear or earns respect.

But from an rp point, it is weird when you see a delf run past several human npc tribals, but take issue with the pc.

[Inks]

That tribe is fairly peaceful though. That answers the first part but not the second.

Not a hate cycle for me, I just prefer playing a city elf than a delf.

[shadeoux]

Two playable tribes have essentially unfettered access to approximately half of the Known World and the other playable tribe has access to basically everywhere they please.

Stricken from evidence...
(Sorry)

Elves can do whatever they want in their lands. If you don't like it, leave, or defend yourself. As far as human tribals and the Pah, The NPC's are scattered in every part of the Pah, it would be poor RP to single out a PC, UNLESS, the human tribal brought it upon themselves doing something stupid that the elves considered taboo.

[Is Friday]

....UNLESS, the human tribal brought it upon themselves doing something stupid that the elves considered taboo.

Like hunting skeet or durrit. 

[Mordiggian]

People should stop making the assumption that the world has not changed since they last experienced certain parts of it.

[Majikal]

*The newer tribal cultural guidelines seem more like restrictions than they do as stimulating source material.  In at least one case, I feel that the newer material serves only to enforce the more stereotypical aspects of tribal role-play rather than providing a framework for constructing living, breathing three-dimensional dynamic characters.
Hmmm, while I personally don't care for two of the three open d-elf tribes, just not my style. The documentation is pretty robust and awesome, and when you dive into those roles fully I find it pretty awesome what can come of it. The role is exactly what you make of it.
*Too many players tend to treat the Tablelands as their personal PKing sandbox.  This is against the docs.  If anything, 0-karma characters should usually be left alone.  Charging protection money?  Makes plenty of sense.  Likewise with harassment.  Obviously, disrespect from outsiders is subject to retaliation.  But if anything you should be looking to scam and hustle visitors while providing them with an enjoyable visit, not try to act like the Taliban of the Table-lands.
The tablelands aren't kittens and sunshine, desert elves and tribals that hide themselves away in a part of the world and claim it as their own. Your 0karma city-dude probably ought to know better than to go stomping in someone's backyard.
*No effort to scam or hustle people - I blame the staff for this though, there isn't really enough coded support for desert elven thieves.  Remember, all desert elves are thieves.
Multiple avenues of theft, my elven pc's rarely if ever used 'stealing shit' as their method of theft. A bad trade, a double-cross, a fake friendship using your skills, using a friendship for information, using a friendship to get closer to someone else, etc etc.
*Tribe members are obsessed with their own tribal PCs.  This is weird.  I for example don't really care if your elven PC has been around longer than my elven PC.  Except by personal OOC agreement you don't outrank me, or if you do we're not in the same chain of command.  At the risk of sounding standoffish, I'm not that interested in RPing with you simply because we're in the same tribe.  Remember, this is my tribe too and my character has just as many NPC connections as you do.  My character may be a new PC, but he's not a new elf.  If you're interested in bullying join the Byn, and if you're interested in social climbing join House Kadius.
I understand the gripe here, but that 50 day ranger in your clan might know a bit more about the current state of things than the 1hr ranger, maybe feel out your clanmates and understand they're in a role that maybe had a very different 'feel' due to prior pc's in the clan or whatever, sometimes you should just play along until your pc is established. I've experienced players stepping into a pack of long-lived delves and wanting to run the show at 1hr playtime, despite things the established group had in play. This usually just mucked up the show for everyone involved, those pc's that got their pc acclimated to the tribe and it's current pc's tended to have more fun.
*Not enough respect for the mercantile class from the warrior classes. I'm sorry, but this is just how desert elves work.
Lots of times merchant d-elves come across as a Kadian in elf-skin, that's what is jarring to me. I've never experienced a lack of respect for desert elf merchants though, perhaps this is an isolated incident.
*Tribal solidarity between elven tribes - this is inappropriate.  Remember, rival desert elves are known scammers.
Even the Red Fangs had friends(gross), pretty sure all parties involved back in that day were fucking over the other. Just because tribes seem to be playing nicey nice doesn't mean they're not scammin the other, playing nice for mutual gain is still a win if it's benefitting your tribe, still very elven. Also, desert elf tribes tend to be a bit more iso than most roles. Most players here want to roleplay with other pcs, talkin with other d-elves can just be nice sometimes.
*Too many desert elf tribal PCs treat human tribal PCs as punching bags.  If anything, you should view tribal human PC as being more bad-assed than your tribal elven PC, despite any real or perceived coded differences.
A desert elf viewing a tribal human as more badass than them? #elvenpride.
*PC desert elves should be *encouraged* by staff to engage city humans.  Desert elves are in the game, in my opinion, primarily to *add* flavor not to hide out in the woods.
Hiding in the woods is adding flavor. Arrows add flavor. Being scared of a place is adding flavor to the game, being uncomfortable when you're lone hunter gets ran up on by a strange, tall, savage elf with a spear is adding a fuckton of flavor to the game. If a d-elf wants to interact with a pc, they can and they will.. this is player driven and has nothing to do with staff. Nor should staff encourage/enforce this kind of rp.


As a lover of d-elves, I enjoyed the grittiness of some of the tribes, I enjoy the us against the world vibe, and maybe I'm just lucky but I seemed to always have excellent staff support on any projects I wanted to kick off while playing in one of the roles. Every tribe I've played in had lots of upward mobility (weren't people complaining about a lack of this awhile back?) and the role, like any other, is exactly what you make it.

[Desertman]

I like the current setup for desert elves.

I think they are just fine as is.

But, I remember playing them back when you didn't even have to have a coded tribe and could be a lone-tok desert elf.

Compared to then the desert elf setup we have now is leaps and bounds better.

Things can always be better I guess so I won't argue against improvement. I just don't see any real issues with the setup we have now. I've interacted with desert elves recently from more than one tribe and have found the experience to be non-restrictive and enjoyable every time.

I can even think of a few desert elves from around a year and a half ago that were just awesome.

If there's a big desert elf "breaking the game" or "breaking the desert elf experience" issue happening...it isn't happening with any I have seen in the last two years.

(If the problem is one you would only experience by actually BEING a desert elf, you have me there. I haven't played one in a bit.)

[Mordiggian]

(If the problem is one you would only experience by actually BEING a desert elf, you have me there. I haven't played one in a bit.)

I've found that usually when people have issues with desert elves on the GDB, they haven't played one in a bit*.   







*in a bit: anywhere from two to eight years

[shadeoux]

(If the problem is one you would only experience by actually BEING a desert elf, you have me there. I haven't played one in a bit.)

I've found that usually when people have issues with desert elves on the GDB, they haven't played one in a bit*.   
*in a bit: anywhere from two to eight years

DING DING DING!!!

Shameless plug! Even if you have 0 Karma, come hither, ask for documentation for the various Delf tribes via the request tool. If then you find one of the three tribes something you would be interested in, put in a request to see what spots if any are open within the tribes and then spec app one. If you've the Karma to outright roll one. I think you should, we are getting some awesome RPT's and Love you just didn't see in the past to often.

[Jingo]

I have played a desert elf. I Was tutored by Hot_dancer in the ways of the elf. (may he run forever on the dunes)

I have a fucking problem with the way desert elves are played.

Because they don't own any lands (minus one ic case). And because you can't take back the stupid killing that results in your tribe getting wiped out.

[Mordiggian]

If ownership is an extension of one's ability to enforce dominance over a person, place, or thing, some elves might debate you on that

It sounds like you are particularly bothered by something that might have occurred in the past, so if it's something you want to discuss with staff, I'd encourage you to shoot me a request!

[Jingo]

Nevermind the fact that elves are supposed to be nomads that share their hunting ground with several other tribes. They can only claim a piece of land once they actually have the presence to keep other tribes or hunters off it. Which they can't, they don't have the manpower. And the moment they make that claim, a dozen or even a hundred tribes might be able to contest them. (except for in that ic case)

And yeah. It isn't one in character event that's coloring my opinion. It's dozens. It's every time someone gets arrowed through the city gates. Or near a legion of milita. Or a clanned pc gets threatened/killed by big-dick-elf mcranger. Even being told that you're not allowed to travel along the dol-takar to trade with the outpost is pretty silly.

[shadeoux]

Nevermind the fact that elves are supposed to be nomads that share their hunting ground with several other tribes. They can only claim a piece of land once they actually have the presence to keep other tribes or hunters off it. Which they can't, they don't have the manpower. And the moment they make that claim, a dozen or even a hundred tribes might be able to contest them. (except for in that ic case)

And yeah. It isn't one in character event that's coloring my opinion. It's dozens. It's every time someone gets arrowed through the city gates. Or near a legion of milita. Or a clanned pc gets threatened/killed by big-dick-elf mcranger. Even being told that you're not allowed to travel along the dol-takar to trade with the outpost is pretty silly.

I think you have misconstrued ideas on the elven way of life in the desert. Each tribe has a different way of doing things. Sure some fall in order to what you suggest, but for the most part, many don't. Might I make a suggestion, and pick a tribe, read the docs, play them and if they don't fall in line with what you think should be happening, be the change. Play it like how you interpret the documentation, and if anyone has a problem with it then, send in a question/request/complaint to the powers that be.

-=-

Something else you may want to consider, is maybe humans don't make so good as tribal/nomads, and elves make far superior ones imho.
While humans grew strong as well as lazy inside city walls, the Desert Elves grew strong not relying upon the very thing that made the humans strong in their minds. After several generations of defending the lands they hunt and grew up on, to allow an outsider to walk in and take food from the mouths of the children and resources they rely and trade others, is bad to the elves and for the intruder, who more than likely will end up dead.

-=-

Pot shots from bows at a distance.

In many instances I can see this working and the shooter getting away with it for a single shot. If they keep plinking away at a stationary npc/pc target at the gates or similar spot it's bad RP. Send in a request/complaint to the powers that be again. Be mindful though, it will not be an instant fix, things take communication and the right personal to get some things done.

On the other hand, if your riding your kank in the middle of the pah hunting/gathering/poaching and you do not belong there. You had BEST expect not only a single arrow, but a volley and every tribe should be kicking your ass out humans included.

[Mordiggian]

Nevermind the fact that elves are supposed to be nomads that share their hunting ground with several other tribes. They can only claim a piece of land once they actually have the presence to keep other tribes or hunters off it. Which they can't, they don't have the manpower. And the moment they make that claim, a dozen or even a hundred tribes might be able to contest them. (except for in that ic case)

PCs can claim lots of things! Whether or not they can back those claims up against other players or the game world (the aforementioned other tribes)... Maybe? Maybe not!

And yeah. It isn't one in character event that's coloring my opinion. It's dozens. It's every time someone gets arrowed through the city gates. Or near a legion of milita. Or a clanned pc gets threatened/killed by big-dick-elf mcranger. Even being told that you're not allowed to travel along the dol-takar to trade with the outpost is pretty silly.

If someone is ignoring the game world (shooting arrows through a city gate) you should send a player complaint. If someone is being mean to you and telling you that you aren't allowed to do something, or perhaps shooting you in the face with arrows... see rule #3 under HELP RULES.

[BadSkeelz]

Something else you may want to consider, is maybe humans don't make so good as tribal/nomads, and elves make far superior ones imho.
While humans grew strong as well as lazy inside city walls, the Desert Elves grew strong not relying upon the very thing that made the humans strong in their minds. After several generations of defending the lands they hunt and grew up on, to allow an outsider to walk in and take food from the mouths of the children and resources they rely and trade others, is bad to the elves and for the intruder, who more than likely will end up dead.

Solution: add more badass human tribes

[shadeoux]

I miss the Benjari!
That was a badassed human tribe.

[Is Friday]

Jimmy on Teampseak:

"EVERYBODY WANTS TO PLAY THEIR GODDAMN INVINCIBLE MOHAWK POWER FANTASY!"

[ibusoe]

Please do, and highlight the parts you disagree with so I have a better idea of what you're talking about.

Αἰτεῖτε, καὶ δοθήσεται ὑμῖν: ζητεῖτε, καὶ εὑρήσετε: κρούετε, καὶ ἀνοιγήσεται ὑμῖν.

DESERT ELF RACIAL HELPFILE:
Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas. Some evidence suggests that this was not always the case, but elves have been very numerous for as far back as anyone can remember. City-elves and desert-elves originate from the same lines, but have diverged in significant ways over time.

All elves stand between around 75 and 96 inches in height and tend to have slim, light frames. Elvish features tend to have less variation than do human features, but a large range does indeed exist: skin color usually falls in the dark, dusky browns to pale cream-colors; hair is typically darker but shares a similar range of hues. Eye color among elves, however, is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and the shape of the eyes is always that of an almond.

Desert elves are very long-limbed runners by nature, and are capable of a prolonged run across any type of terrain for extended periods of time.

As compared to humans, elves have a higher agility (on average), and a somewhat higher wisdom. Due to their light build, though, they are generally less strong and sturdy than humans. All elves find riding mounts to be a shameful act (though they can usually forgive the use of mounts by other races). In other words, elves will never willingly ride on mounts, in wagons, or on skimmers, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.
Notes:

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Playing a Desert Elf is considered a difficult thing to do, and so playing one requires having earned at least one karma.

Desert-elves have the same focus on tribal loyalty, trust and testing, and thievery as an art form as do city-elves. It is highly recommended that you read the city-elf documentation before continuing to read this page, as here we will mainly describe the ways in which desert-elves vary from their city kin, and expand upon a few themes.

Probably the key thing to focus on when playing an elf, is that the elven mind is always looking for a scam, either directed at him or one he can direct at someone else. Elves will be suspicious of anyone that they do not know well enough to trust their lives to. The reasoning is simple. When you spend your entire life looking for ways to screw everyone else over, you expect everyone else to be doing the same to you.
Tribes:

Almost all elves that dwell in the desert belong to a tribe, for there is a dependency upon trusted ones for survival. There are a number of established tribal groups open for play at any time; we do expect you to play your desert elf character in one of these tribes, because the tribal experience is a crucial part of desert-elf roleplay.

The attitudes towards any race, culture, or group will be strongly determined by the tribe you come from. Raider elves are as much a possibility as raider humans. But it's wrong to think that all non-tribe members are the enemy, because that's historically a good way to get your tribe wiped out.

When a desert elf goes out and kills a human tribal, or a citizen of some city, or some gith, or particularly another tribal elf, they are posing the threat of attack on their tribe by an outside force. While elven tribes are generally very self-absorbed as a whole, they are not so foolish as to provoke the ire of so many outsiders that their doom is assured before the passing of another generation. Attacking outsiders is generally only done in self-defense or by necessity, otherwise it is a task taken upon with much discretion.

For the same reason, most desert elves would be wary of over-hunting. Not for ecological reasons, but because if they share the territory with any other tribes, which they probably do, then consuming more than their fair share of resources could create a lot of hostility and territory wars.
Nomadic Wandering:

Elves are nomadic people by nature. It is ingrained in both their culture and their personality. Elves do not like to stay in one place for too long. Some try to explain this by saying they stay out of trouble that way, or because most are hunters and gatherers, or because they love to run... but elves are simply nomadic by nature.

The movement of elven tribes is probably better described as semi-nomadic. They will typically claim a region of the world (i.e. Tablelands, scrub lands, grasslands, Grey Forest, Red Desert, etc.) where they're familiar with the fauna, the neighbors, and the terrain, and stay there. Within that region, their movements may be percieved as nomadic to an outsider, but in reality are probably much more ritualistic, depending on the tribe.

Desert elves are territorial. Once a tribe picks a territory, members of that tribe don't usually leave the area without a good reason, just like most humans spend their entire lives in the city of their choice. These territories might be pretty big, but they're usually restricted to one region, such as the grasslands, the Red Desert, or the tablelands. A tribe of elves may very well move their camp from one side of the grasslands to another on a seasonal basis, but long moves from one end of the known world to the other are very rare and often only inspired by war or other genocidal events. Also, elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked to for safety. The further an elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in.
Elven Pride:

From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge. Because of the long memory elves have for such things, thoughts of revenge can continue for years and years before the opportunity prevents itself. Similarly, if someone treats an elf with respect and even gifts, this will be playing to their strong sense of pride, and will likely make them more favorable towards you. Of course, because of the paranoid nature of elves, this is not always the case.

This pride also plays a role in a tribal elf's relationship with their tribemates. Because the pride makes elves overly sensitive to both insults and compliments, social pressure tends to be a large factor in the politics of a tribe. While insults and compliments can lead to revenge, paranoia, and perceived flattery when they come from outsiders; from tribemates they indicate a sense of social standing - the emotions created by the insults cannot be turned towards revenge, so they instead become turned inward to portray identity within the tribe. When more tribemates respect an individual, that individual becomes more important, and the respect (or lack thereof) that that individual exhibits becomes more influential - and vice versa. The extent of this, and how it interacts with political structure, can vary from tribe to tribe.
Elves and Mounts:

The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with. This aversion to beasts of burden does not extend to pack animals. Most elves have always, and always will rely upon all manner of beasts to carry things around. Similarly, there is no aversion to using beasts as a source of food, as work animals, or in just about any other function other than riding.

Desert-elves have the same focus on tribal loyalty, trust and testing, and thievery as an art form as do city-elves. It is highly recommended that you read the city-elf documentation before continuing to read this page, as here we will mainly describe the ways in which desert-elves vary from their city kin, and expand upon a few themes.

Probably the key thing to focus on when playing an elf, is that the elven mind is always looking for a scam, either directed at him or one he can direct at someone else. Elves will be suspicious of anyone that they do not know well enough to trust their lives to. The reasoning is simple. When you spend your entire life looking for ways to screw everyone else over, you expect everyone else to be doing the same to you.
Tribes:

Almost all elves that dwell in the desert belong to a tribe, for there is a dependency upon trusted ones for survival. There are a number of established tribal groups open for play at any time; we do expect you to play your desert elf character in one of these tribes, because the tribal experience is a crucial part of desert-elf roleplay.

The attitudes towards any race, culture, or group will be strongly determined by the tribe you come from. Raider elves are as much a possibility as raider humans. But it's wrong to think that all non-tribe members are the enemy, because that's historically a good way to get your tribe wiped out.

When a desert elf goes out and kills a human tribal, or a citizen of some city, or some gith, or particularly another tribal elf, they are posing the threat of attack on their tribe by an outside force. While elven tribes are generally very self-absorbed as a whole, they are not so foolish as to provoke the ire of so many outsiders that their doom is assured before the passing of another generation. Attacking outsiders is generally only done in self-defense or by necessity, otherwise it is a task taken upon with much discretion.

For the same reason, most desert elves would be wary of over-hunting. Not for ecological reasons, but because if they share the territory with any other tribes, which they probably do, then consuming more than their fair share of resources could create a lot of hostility and territory wars.
Nomadic Wandering:

Elves are nomadic people by nature. It is ingrained in both their culture and their personality. Elves do not like to stay in one place for too long. Some try to explain this by saying they stay out of trouble that way, or because most are hunters and gatherers, or because they love to run... but elves are simply nomadic by nature.

The movement of elven tribes is probably better described as semi-nomadic. They will typically claim a region of the world (i.e. Tablelands, scrub lands, grasslands, Grey Forest, Red Desert, etc.) where they're familiar with the fauna, the neighbors, and the terrain, and stay there. Within that region, their movements may be percieved as nomadic to an outsider, but in reality are probably much more ritualistic, depending on the tribe.

Desert elves are territorial. Once a tribe picks a territory, members of that tribe don't usually leave the area without a good reason, just like most humans spend their entire lives in the city of their choice. These territories might be pretty big, but they're usually restricted to one region, such as the grasslands, the Red Desert, or the tablelands. A tribe of elves may very well move their camp from one side of the grasslands to another on a seasonal basis, but long moves from one end of the known world to the other are very rare and often only inspired by war or other genocidal events. Also, elves will rarely leave their tribal grounds, as the tribe is looked to for safety. The further an elf travels from his or her "stomping ground" the more danger they perceive themselves to be in.
Elven Pride:

From all that has been said, it should be clear that elves are a proud people. The nature of this pride, and how it manifests itself in the actions of your character, are what you should determine when you are creating their personality - and they can show a lot of variability. But you have to be aware that all elves are very proud, and that it has to have some impact on how they act.

As a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge. Because of the long memory elves have for such things, thoughts of revenge can continue for years and years before the opportunity prevents itself. Similarly, if someone treats an elf with respect and even gifts, this will be playing to their strong sense of pride, and will likely make them more favorable towards you. Of course, because of the paranoid nature of elves, this is not always the case.

This pride also plays a role in a tribal elf's relationship with their tribemates. Because the pride makes elves overly sensitive to both insults and compliments, social pressure tends to be a large factor in the politics of a tribe. While insults and compliments can lead to revenge, paranoia, and perceived flattery when they come from outsiders; from tribemates they indicate a sense of social standing - the emotions created by the insults cannot be turned towards revenge, so they instead become turned inward to portray identity within the tribe. When more tribemates respect an individual, that individual becomes more important, and the respect (or lack thereof) that that individual exhibits becomes more influential - and vice versa. The extent of this, and how it interacts with political structure, can vary from tribe to tribe.
Elves and Mounts:

The mixture of pride, nomadic tendencies, and the natural ability to run makes all elves ridicule the riding of mounts. To rely upon another beast to carry one around is considered an extreme sign of weakness among elves (even more than the inability to steal!). Even at the point of exhaustion, and when it comes to life and death situations, an elf would never admit to riding a mount. Even in the rare case of old age and in sickness, elves would refuse to ride about on a mount.

It is sometimes said that most elves forgive the riding of mounts by other races, but this isn't entirely true. While they realize that it is customary for some other races to ride mounts, they still perceive it as a sign of weakness. It usually doesn't change much, however, as the pride and tribal nature of elves makes them think of others as weak to begin with. This aversion to beasts of burden does not extend to pack animals. Most elves have always, and always will rely upon all manner of beasts to carry things around. Similarly, there is no aversion to using beasts as a source of food, as work animals, or in just about any other function other than riding.

One part of your request puzzled me, which is that you requested to know what part of the docs I disagreed with.  Disagreed with?  *Chuckles*.  I'm probably what would be termed an "Ultra Orthodox" player in the sense that I maintain a religious stringency of adherence to my particular interpretation of the docs.  If anything, I'm a notch up from that - I play like dadaist interpretations of ultra orthodox documentation fidelity, although I don't think this is precisely what you're asking.  I tend to think of the docs as somewhat of a covenant between players and staff, for example "as long as you're faithfully following the docs, the staff shouldn't feel welcome to criticize you," not that I've any recent run in with the Powers that Be.  For the most part a bunch of cool cats.

I took a survey a couple of years ago and only found four places, in all of the docs, where I substantially "disagreed" with what was written.  In two of the cases these disagreements amount to what is essentially typos - I've no reason to think that if I troubled myself to point out these problems, the staff wouldn't immediately correct them.  Some of the original language appears to have survived in the docs way back to the time (circa fifteen years ago?) when Armageddon was actually a hack and slash MUD.

In another case I found something that is pretty much contradicted in at least two other places by other stuff in the docs and is contrary to the way that most of us play, and in the last case I've a problem with one help file where one particular guideline is internally problematic and really appears to contradict common sense.

That's it.  Otherwise the docs really seem pretty reasonable.  I've give the above another read tomorrow but I don't see anything substantial in the Desert Elf docs that should require correcting.

Thanks for posting, by the way.  Unless you object I'll go point for point with you on parts of what you're written, probably tomorrow.

[ibusoe]

I have no problem with tribal characters in the tablelands keeping non-tribal characters out. I don't think this is against the documentation.
The way I see it, your land is your resource, and having other people come into your land to hunt and forage there would be a big issue for two reasons.
One: Cities have huge appetites and if they take too much from the land your people will be going hungry.
Two: It destroys your economic trading power to allow other people to come into your land and harvest your resources for free instead of buying them from you.

I enjoy the idea that if you go mucking around in the backyard of the wild tribes you are taking your life into your hands.

Thank you for taking the time to outline your reasoning.  As far as I can tell, your reasoning passes several important barriers for validity, for example it's logical, internally consistent and tactically sound.

I disagree with you because I think that your response, which your saying should typify the desert elf view of the table lands, should rather typify the desert human view of the table lands.  Why?

In my interpretation of elves, elves are too thrill-seeking (in terms of their desire to steal) to practice the level of resource conservancy, intra-tribal solidarity and strategic resource defense that yes, probably should typify the human tribes for the reasons that you've outlined above.  I'll concede that there's nothing in the docs to substantiate this claim.  Simply, I tend to think of elves as being largely similar to real life Gypsies. 

This has not been my experience at all. The last desert elf character I had began play at age 70-something and despite being 0 days played he was treated by all the other tribal PC's with care and respect in deference to his years.

I also disagree with you in the sense that I am interested in RP'ing with you simply because we're in the same tribe. I rolled up a tribal to be part of a group, and even if our characters dislike one another, that tension that creates while still being forced to cling to each other for protection and survival is an interesting form of interaction for me. Some of the most entertaining moments of my tribal role play came from these inner tribe conflicts.

I thank you for your honesty however I think a key point is that I don't consent to this.  It has long been held as controversial, for reasons that have never been outlined, in this game that players who don't get along with each other can simply avoid each other.
Do I dislike you?  No.  I'll concede that I don't know you super well but based on your posts you certainly seem like the guy whom I'd get along with in real life, even the the sort of person I'd enjoy playing Armageddon alongside.  I do believe at present that our visions of what should be happening inside of an desert elven clan are prohibitive of us reasonably role-playing together inside of one. 

I view this as very appropriate in the context of tribal elves vs. non-elves. It reminds me of the Armed Forces. When I was in the Marines, I would shit talk the Army, Navy, and Air Force. If we were all at a bar a fight just might break out. However, the moment a civilian tries to get involved, all of us would band together against the civilian because quite frankly ... they aren't part of the club. Yes we fight internally, but that's our business.

Totally LOL'd at this one.  I grew up near a military base.  I totally know what you're talking about.  I can agree that most of the marines that I hung out with were all cool individually, but when you put more than two of them in a room together they did magically stop being my friend.  LOL, crazy marines!

I think this aspect of the Tablelands is better expressed through the human tribes.  Human politics are not of interest, in my interpretation of the docs, to desert elves.  Desert elves would rather be stealing.  See above.  Several other players have alluded to the possibility that the human tribals should probably be more bad-assed.

Please feel free to counterpoint any of the above.  I'm learning more about the way that some of you guys play desert elves.