Leadership Role Thoughts (Derail from RAT)

[Clearsighted]

I just post up a kickass exciting new vertical progression role, and in less than an hour the GDB starts complaining that the GDB is boring and staff have veto'd vertical progression roles. GDB lyfe.

They likely feel it isn't really "progression" if it is a role call app where staff predetermines who gets the role with no IC efforts involved.

What have they progressed to? Getting their app approved?

They didn't exactly rise through the ranks.

I think what people mean is they want more "vertical progression" roles that involve some progression due to their IC efforts.

Either way, I am very glad to see these sorts of roles being opened back up. I personally like having them around to interact with. It mixes things up.

Pretty much this. Sometimes it's baffling how writing a good report/app trumps anything actually done in game. I wrote I did all these badass things to deserve a promotion in a report. Good job I guess.

This really doesn't prove anything about the glass ceiling argument. They app in above the one most PCs meet.

Problem with apps, such as the one for the Byn lieutenant, is that it tends to attract the kind of people who can come up with pretty apps all day but who flit from one role to the next, and who may or may not have any real staying power. You need someone with history, gravitas and stability, and that seems to rarely come from people that app into leadership positions in combat heavy/experience heavy clans.

I think something like 9 out of 10 of all characters I've encountered who apped into a leadership position (not counting templars/nobles/GMH agents for whom there is zero IC expectation of even minimal charisma or competence, owing to the accident of their birth) basically sucked. No offense to anyone. If you're reading this and are upset, feel free to assume you're the one out of ten that impressed me. By contrast, I've almost always been quite happy with the hard nosed types that rose up through the ranks and earned their spurs through Darwinian attrition.

The kind of players that really deserve to rise to Lieutenant type positions, are those that have put ~10-20 years into a clan, and seen it prosper under them, and who have demonstrated the ability to train up good NCOs.

Armageddon has had no shortage of those kind of quality characters. At least two or three of them show up every RL year, but they virtually always end up dead ended, or so it seems.

EDIT: And the kind of people that would be a great Byn lieutenant? They're probably good at keeping their characters alive and motivated a long time, and are probably hesitant about ditching those they're responsible for, to go app. I guess it would need to be a perfect storm of one of those types dying just as a role is announced, and then getting selected.

[Barzalene]

I worried that I'd hurt feelings and I wanted to offer an apology and explanation, if that's the case.

... less linear and more vertical plotting would be fun.

What do you mean?

I also do not know what this means, but I'm interested.

The glass ceiling and difficulty in change are problematic in that they make story arcs small. Now, let me say I get why we're set up that way. We have some strong and charismatic players. We have players who do accomplishment well. If there was no caps we'd have players playing red robes either inappropriately, or in manners that would not lead to much interaction or fun. We'd have the world changing every week as the balance of power swayed back and forth like a row boat in a typhoon. So, I get it.

But I think there should be more opportunities for people to make a mark on the world. Make it hard. But not impossible. If hard is too easy, make it harder.
Make it possible to move up if your pc is great.   I think it's more fun to fail to achieve than succeed at doing nothing. Even if the rise is artificial. Even if the new power that comes with moving up is limited to the point of insignificant, it's always fun to have something to shoot for.

This is a critical assessment of something I've observed, not recently, but over the last several years. It's a very specific criticism. It is in no way a vote of no confidence. In general, I feel very happy and not particularly critical of staff. I like you guys. I hope you all know that.

It's also not about anything that's recent. I want to offer a little context.
When I started playing, Ysania had started a new noble house. (There are organizations now, and they are just as impressive, and very likely to be longer lasting. It's awesome.) Kasyn (Kayasn? Kasan? You know who I mean) had been everything from a bynner to I could swear templar but maybe just high ranking military. In two city states. Isahn (ok maybe that's not an ideal example) was a red robe. I understand why some of these things are no longer possible.

And I hear your response: Hey Deb! Look around. We're doing that already. So, cool. Thanks. And again if you felt that your work wasn't being appreciated I apologize. Because it sucks to work hard then be shat on. I hope no one felt I was doing that.

[Clearsighted]

Random Armageddon Thoughts is not the place to make sweeping, demeaning generalizations about sponsored PCs guys. Please be nice.

Was this in reference to my post? I didn't make any sweeping or demeaning generalizations. I made a couple of very specific observations based on my own years of experience. It excluded any templar/noble/GMH family type roles, and focused explicitly on combat/experience heavy roles.

Historically, a lot of people have been attracted to these 'sergeant' roles and gone into them with stars in their eyes, only to get a very rude awakening.

The reality is, being a Sergeant sucks to some extent to begin with, as it is gruelling hard work to do well, and leave capable NCOs behind. So, tying into Desertman's comment, I'd be more excited about seeing a long-time Sergeant reach LT. And that ties into the vertical plot debate.

[Is Friday]

Random Armageddon Thoughts is not the place to make sweeping, demeaning generalizations about sponsored PCs guys. Please be nice.

Was this in reference to my post? I didn't make any sweeping or demeaning generalizations. I made a couple of very specific observations based on my own years of experience. It excluded any templar/noble/GMH family type roles, and focused explicitly on combat/experience heavy roles.

Historically, a lot of people have been attracted to these 'sergeant' roles and gone into them with stars in their eyes, only to get a very rude awakening.

The reality is, being a Sergeant sucks to some extent to begin with, as it is gruelling hard work to do well, and leave capable NCOs behind. So, tying into Desertman's comment, I'd be more excited about seeing a long-time Sergeant reach LT. And that ties into the vertical plot debate.

My cynicism believes that staff is more inclined to ask for someone to app into a second tier leadership role (LT) because they can impose more restrictions on the role. Therefore, it can/will be stored for doing something a "homegrown" officer might do, and is far more replaceable than these codedly competent, normal PCs that "climb" the ranks.

[Hot_Dancer]

I don't think it is fair to dog on people who app into any leadership position in any clan.

That shit is hard.

Hard truth - sometimes these roles show up because the current pbase of said clan is full of people who refuse to take leadership themselves or need someone to hold their hand. App into a leadership role for these types of clan members and go perform a miracle.

[Barzalene]

I have an additional theory.
I think we've all written up characters and gotten in game and just not clicked. Sometimes it takes a long time for that connection to an idea that looked great on paper. Sometimes it never happens. With a sponsored role, in addition to that transition period you have a lot of pressures that may make it harder to get to that moment where it all comes together.

[Clearsighted]

I don't think it is fair to dog on people who app into any leadership position in any clan.

That shit is hard.

Hard truth - sometimes these roles show up because the current pbase of said clan is full of people who refuse to take leadership themselves or need someone to hold their hand. App into a leadership role for these types of clan members and go perform a miracle.

Yeah. You're right. It just seems like when these rolecall announcements get made, there's a rush of people who think "Oh, wouldn't being a Sergeant be *fun!*" and come up with some elaborate background for it, without realizing the reality is a soul-killing grind with no chance of further advancement.

I'm not dogging on people who shoulder the burden of leadership. I'm dogging on those who immediately flinch from the leadership and flake out.

The fact that someone answered a rolecall is irrelevant. The only relevant point is that those who reach a combat leadership role via Darwinian attrition are the ones likely to appreciate, stick to it, and lead those around them. Those who have it handed to them, are more likely not to appreciate it or efficiently lead those around them.

Therefore: I'd be real excited at seeing someone who's put 10-20 years into a clan get promoted to LT, and that ties into the point made to Xalle earlier. If someone has put 15-20 game years into a clan and proven they can train up and mould multiple quality and competent NCOs who could fulfill the Sergeant role, they deserve a promotion. But it basically never happens.

Moreover, I think the quality of leadership would raise overall, if people thought they really could reach a higher rank if they put in a couple quality decades as Sergeant, instead of getting burnt out at the dead end.

The kind of guy that is okay with that dead end, and keeps at it for decades, despite no chance of promotion, and who does a fantastic job training and leading people? An incredibly rare gem.

[AdamBlue]

[quote
The kind of guy that is okay with that dead end, and keeps at it for decades, despite no chance of promotion, and who does a fantastic job training and leading people? An incredibly rare gem.
[/quote]

So you mean anyone who plays any race that isn't human?

[Clearsighted]

So you mean anyone who plays any race that isn't human?

If they're in a leadership/sergeant position, then sure. Anyways. The Byn has plenty of NPCs/VNPCs who aren't human, above the rank of sergeant. And I've seen a few others among the GMHs.

[Eurynomos]

The game is changing, Tuluk is closed, and Byn Lieutenant has opened up as a vertical climb position.

Why hold on to your butthurt when you can let it flow through you, and see all the wonderful new opportunities arising?

[Clearsighted]

The game is changing, Tuluk is closed, and Byn Lieutenant has opened up as a vertical climb position.

Why hold on to your butthurt when you can let it flow through you, and see all the wonderful new opportunities arising?

Hah. I wouldn't even be playing, if I didn't think the game was changing for the better, lately.

I am not holding onto any butthurt. It does seem that a lot of people are acting butthurt over the observation that sponsored sergeant-type roles tend to not do very well. But I could really care less.

But it's worth noting that you're missing the point about what most people consider a 'vertical climb'. Going from Runner to Trooper, to Sergeant to Lieutenant, is a vertical climb. Coming in as Lieutenant is just a sponsored role. A couple other posters already made this point. My sole contribution was reflecting on the fact that I've seen a lot of sponsored leaders flake out, whereas those that earn it, tend to stick with it.

That's all I have to say. I am not leading a crusade here, or trying to be the change. It was just an observation. It's curious though, that one storyteller called it a sweeping, demeaning generalization on all sponsored roles (it was specific to sergeant-types), and another called me butthurt. But I guess it touched a nerve somewhere.

Many good things have been done/changed in the game lately. It's cool that the Byn is getting a lieutenant.  Staff is doing a good job.

[Rokal]

I have an additional theory.
I think we've all written up characters and gotten in game and just not clicked. Sometimes it takes a long time for that connection to an idea that looked great on paper. Sometimes it never happens. With a sponsored role, in addition to that transition period you have a lot of pressures that may make it harder to get to that moment where it all comes together.

I can relate to this very well.

[Eurynomos]

Who's to say the LT position won't be open to vertical climbers?

It would just be a very difficult position to get to IG -- Almost all of the Byn Sergeants i've seen in game have the aspiration of becoming a Lieutenant, but it's typically very premature (Only after being a Sergeant for a few RL months, by example). It isn't that it's impossible to attain, it's that usually they fall in a sinkhole or over a Shield Wall or get blicked by a Gith Arrow.

[Clearsighted]

Who's to say the LT position won't be open to vertical climbers?

It would just be a very difficult position to get to IG -- Almost all of the Byn Sergeants i've seen in game have the aspiration of becoming a Lieutenant, but it's typically very premature (Only after being a Sergeant for a few RL months, by example). It isn't that it's impossible to attain, it's that usually they fall in a sinkhole or over a Shield Wall or get blicked by a Gith Arrow.

You're right that a lot of people are very unrealistic about such things. Especially after only a few RL months of being a steady hand or presence.

When I think of truly exemplary leaders, I think of those who have put at least a RL year+ into a sergeant-type position, and in the process, trained up multiple potential NCOs to replace them.

That's my 'gauge' for a Lieutenant. But it's just my personal opinion.

[wizturbo]

Problem with apps, such as the one for the Byn lieutenant, is that it tends to attract the kind of people who can come up with pretty apps all day but who flit from one role to the next, and who may or may not have any real staying power. You need someone with history, gravitas and stability, and that seems to rarely come from people that app into leadership positions in combat heavy/experience heavy clans.

I think this expectation of "high quality leaders" in a world like Zalanthas is hilariously naive.  The Zalanthian equivalent to the "people who can come up with pretty apps all day" are far more likely to get a leadership position in Zalanthas than someone who actually can do the job well on the ground.

It's just like real life!  Most leaders are terrible, and the rare good ones are generally politically backstabbed, or advance so far into an organization that they're no longer in touch with the rank and file.  Only a few rare gems actually manage to be in a position where they make a difference.  Why should Zalanthas be any different?

All realism aside...what's best for the game?  Someone in a leadership position that generates fun.  I don't see how someone who applies into this role cannot qualify for that.  The staff can look at their past PC's and go "yup, that gal sure brought the fun!" and off we go.  Having to wait 10-20 IC years to have a PC grow ICLy into a position where they can be promoted sounds pretty crazy to me if the staff want this vertical role filled today.  With that said, if there are PCs who qualify for advancement, having those PC's take the reins would definitely add more fun and flavor to the game...but having a long lived, leadership/politically minded 10+ IC year Bynner is a rare, rare thing.

[Asanadas]

Having played a leadership position, my opinion is that it can be a joke. 

What will make or break a leadership role is the staff members overseeing it. Player leaders are the ones who are (by rules) required to remain in contact with their storyteller via reports. If a player leader feels that their efforts aren't being appreciated (or in my case, gets the impression that their organic actions are against what staff wants), they will burn out quick. If they witness threads of forced plots fizzle out and disappear from relevancy time and again, they will burn out quick. If they feel that their staff member has let down or failed to respond to members of their clan in a justified fashion, they will burn out quick. Are staff the fulcrum, then? I would say yes -- one of the fulcrums, at least.

Basically, caring about the opinions of others on an OOC level (and their treatment) will burn out a leader. It's a weight that's constantly on their shoulders, and rarely on non-leader characters by comparison.

Apped-in leaders start with an adolescent fixation on how others rate and value them. This is opposed to characters who have IRL months in-game, and their character's reputation precedes them in nearly all cases. Whereas if an earned-their-spurs leader has a refuge of experience to fall back on and assure themselves they're doing a good job, apped-in leaders have no such comfort. Through the second-guessing, and general sludge-drag of responsibilities, they will burn out quicker than their counterpart.

Is it staff's job to counter this by reassuring the new character? Absolutely. Through any shape or means, IC or OOCly.

The counterpart to this paranoia would be a simple piece of advice saying, "Don't care what other people think of you." In my humble opinion, people who would play their characters this way just don't make good leaders. On top of that, I'm sure there has been rude awakenings where staff have threatened to store or have stored characters on account of this.

     Moving on to the concept of a "good leader"...

Leadership can be defined by two powerful elements.

• Create a better environment compared to one without you.
• Help others reach their potential.

It's as simple as that. Any player who does these two things is a good player, in my view.

[Clearsighted]

Problem with apps, such as the one for the Byn lieutenant, is that it tends to attract the kind of people who can come up with pretty apps all day but who flit from one role to the next, and who may or may not have any real staying power. You need someone with history, gravitas and stability, and that seems to rarely come from people that app into leadership positions in combat heavy/experience heavy clans.

I think this expectation of "high quality leaders" in a world like Zalanthas is hilariously naive.  The Zalanthian equivalent to the "people who can come up with pretty apps all day" are far more likely to get a leadership position in Zalanthas than someone who actually can do the job well on the ground.

It's just like real life!  Most leaders are terrible, and the rare good ones are generally politically backstabbed, or advance so far into an organization that they're no longer in touch with the rank and file.  Only a few rare gems actually manage to be in a position where they make a difference.  Why should Zalanthas be any different?

All realism aside...what's best for the game?  Someone in a leadership position that generates fun.  I don't see how someone who applies into this role cannot qualify for that.  The staff can look at their past PC's and go "yup, that gal sure brought the fun!" and off we go.  Having to wait 10-20 IC years to have a PC grow ICLy into a position where they can be promoted sounds pretty crazy to me if the staff want this vertical role filled today.

If someone is generating fun, then by definition they're not flaking out, and thus nothing I said had anything to do with them. My observation had more to do with who tends to OOCly flake out the most.

There are a lot of roles where incompetence is a massive plus, like templars and such. Them being arbitrary douches is what makes Armageddon so much fun. Sergeants are a bit different, as they're like the Arby's managers of the game world, who do most of the mentoring. I personally, (just to show where our opinions are contrasted) think its naive to not realize that sergeant roles are very different from templars/nobles/GMH family in terms of expectations/duties.

I do think there's been a few characters that have put in a ton of time and effort, and never got any love for it. But that has nothing to do with this. I do think most people have been conditioned to believe they'll never advance beyond Sergeant. I think some are naive and presumptuous who do good in a role for a few months, then start thinking staff is out to get them because they're not promoted to Captain.

But I think if a dudes been sergeant for a RL year+, has been active the whole time, and has a lot of loyal subordinates, then he deserves some kind of laurel.

Staff seem to be moving in a direction of more verticality/laurels, so that's a good thing. Lots of good design decisions have been made lately. Warehouses, Tuluk closing, Lieutenants coming back, etc. It's all good.

Having played a leadership position... (etc)

Good post.

[Xalle]

The Byn's in a solid place at the moment, which is why I thought it was a good time to add this role to augment the (newly appointed) sergeants' role.  The aim is to add a new dimension of fun and interest to the clan - not to 'fix' anything.  If someone hasn't put in prior IG effort in the Byn, rising through the ranks and proving they know what the clan is about and what it entails, which means having done the leg work, I'm not so interested in giving them the role.  Yes, the effort will have been with prior characters, but that's valid to me, and there have been some really successful 'sponsored in' combat heavy/experienced roles, both in recent years and the past.

The position is also open to anyone who's suitable who wants to rise through the ranks from runner to Lt. By suitable, I mean having a PC that fits the role, and if the player's willing to take on the demanding task they'd need to be constructive and not a headache to collaborate with, and trustworthy in the role. That means stuff like not trying to change the clan to something that doesn't fit the documentation or game world, having a combative attitude when dealing with staff and not being willing to listen to feedback and advice, spending most of their time twinking, or prone to consistently doing anachronistic things for ooc lulz, etc. Pretty obvious stuff like that.   There's  the simple fact that not every sergeant becomes a Lt in the virtual world, and not every Bynner is suitable for sergeant or LT - regardless of longevity.

There are some very cool and interesting things in the works, and I do my best to offer support and try to enable players where I have the power to do so and it makes sense in the world. So it should be a pretty fun, meaty challenge for an experienced player. 

[Clearsighted]

The Byn's in a solid place at the moment, which is why I thought it was a good time to add this role to augment the (newly appointed) sergeants' role.  The aim is to add a new dimension of fun and interest to the clan - not to 'fix' anything.  If someone hasn't put in prior IG effort in the Byn, rising through the ranks and proving they know what the clan is about and what it entails, which means having done the leg work, I'm not so interested in giving them the role.  Yes, the effort will have been with prior characters, but that's valid to me, and there have been some really successful 'sponsored in' combat heavy/experienced roles, both in recent years and the past.

The position is also open to anyone who's suitable who wants to rise through the ranks from runner to Lt. By suitable, I mean having a PC that fits the role, and if the player's willing to take on the demanding task they'd need to be constructive and not a headache to collaborate with, and trustworthy in the role. That means stuff like not trying to change the clan to something that doesn't fit the documentation or game world, having a combative attitude when dealing with staff and not being willing to listen to feedback and advice, spending most of their time twinking, or prone to consistently doing anachronistic things for ooc lulz, etc. Pretty obvious stuff like that.   There's  the simple fact that not every sergeant becomes a Lt in the virtual world, and not every Bynner is suitable for sergeant or LT - regardless of longevity.

There are some very cool and interesting things in the works, and I do my best to offer support and try to enable players where I have the power to do so and it makes sense in the world. So it should be a pretty fun, meaty challenge for an experienced player.  

Don't get me wrong. I might as well clarify, because it was my original post that sparked the divergence. Whether it's sponsored or not, it's still a good move. Bringing back lieutenants is a good thing. The game has always been better, IMO, when there were one or two floating around. Because of the kind of RP and plots that get stirred up around those military-type figures, which templars are a bit too distant/above to really be a prime mover in.

[KankWhisperer]

10-1 this new lieutenant was so brilliant in their virtual deeds that they made lieutenant by their early twenties.

[Quell]

10-1 this new lieutenant was so brilliant in their virtual deeds that they made lieutenant by their early twenties.

Does having a daddy with a large coin purse count as brilliant now?

[Desertman]

One of the major issues I find with "Play a high-end combat sponsored role.", is everyone knows you haven't really done shit. You walk in, they look at you, and everyone knows you may be a shit leader in every capacity. You haven't proven anything.

You may be a complete fuckup when it comes to actually leading, and everyone knows it. So you have that awkward moment in the beginning where everyone is "giving you respect" they all know you haven't earned and everyone is pretending like you are great, when everyone knows you may very well not be.

I like to think of them as "paper leaders", until they actually prove something, even when I am playing them. All they have proven to anyone that matters when their boots hit the sand is they can write an app that staffers like and that staffers like them. It's not easy to walk into a room full of underlings, most of whom may actually be better than you, and have proven it....and then start handing out orders like you know what's up.

A lot of them will even dislike you for even existing because you basically "jumped the ladder" on them. Some of them make it obvious.

Kudos to the players who take on these roles and do them well. I know how daunting that task can be. Doing them well is a whole other ball game, but I've seen it done.

I'm just glad Byn Lieutenants are playable again, even if the first one is coming in as a special app. For a good long while (many years) staff was of the opinion that Byn Lieutenants were never played "the way they intended", so they ended up closing them down all together. Apparently all of the past Lieutenants had taken on more of "higher end Sergeant" role, instead of playing Lieutenants, which wasn't how they envisioned them to be played.

I can only assume staff has put together a new set of guidelines or something for Lieutenants to follow which will make them "more playable" for players, and that is very exciting.

Having a Lieutenant walk in was always an awesome experience for me as a new Bynner back in the day, and I look forward to new players we have now getting a chance to meet them, and maybe even one day BE them.

It's good times.

[Rathustra]

I'm just glad Byn Lieutenants are playable again, even if the first one is coming in as a special app. For a good long while (many years) staff was of the opinion that Byn Lieutenants were never played "the way they intended", so they ended up closing them down all together.
It's good times.

Can't comment on this but The last PC Lt. was around before I was Staff. It was great to play under them and they seemed pretty awesome. They are what I think of when I worked with Xalle to make this role available. We decided the time was ripe now, especially as our plans to make it a promotion-based role at first... fell down a hole. So we figured - let's start solid then have the role be there to achieve through play once our apped in one has finished.

[Desertman]

I'm just glad Byn Lieutenants are playable again, even if the first one is coming in as a special app. For a good long while (many years) staff was of the opinion that Byn Lieutenants were never played "the way they intended", so they ended up closing them down all together.
It's good times.

Can't comment on this. The last PC Lt. was around before I was Staff. It was great to play under them and they seemed pretty awesome. They are what I think of when I worked with Xalle to make this role available. We decided the time was ripe now, especially as our plans to make it a promotion-based role at first... fell down a hole. So we figured - let's start solid then have the role be there to achieve through play once our apped in one has finished.

Yar, it's a quote from another/different staffer.

[Rathustra]

Well, I imagine they're better able to comment on it (if they were staffing at the time). But I've got the go-ahead for this role with a clear specification for what the role will be doing - so maybe we're getting the best of both worlds.

[Rhyden]

One of the major issues I find with "Play a high-end combat sponsored role.", is everyone knows you haven't really done shit. You walk in, they look at you, and everyone knows you may be a shit leader in every capacity. You haven't proven anything.

For some reason this makes me think of:


I think it's great staff are asking for a new Byn lieutenant. Good luck to whoever fills those shit-smeared boots.

[Rathustra]

Bonus points for the guy to put in a David Schwimmer Byn Lt. application.

[Clearsighted]

One of the major issues I find with "Play a high-end combat sponsored role.", is everyone knows you haven't really done shit. You walk in, they look at you, and everyone knows you may be a shit leader in every capacity. You haven't proven anything.

For some reason this makes me think of:


I think it's great staff are asking for a new Byn lieutenant. Good luck to whoever fills those shit-smeared boots.

The irony is that by many accounts, the dude was a decent leader. He probably did not deserve to be portrayed by David Schwimmer. But this is hilarious, anyways.

[Desertman]

Best Byn Lieutenant ever.....Animal Mother. (AKA, Jayne Cobb as well.)

[Clearsighted]

Nah. Animal Mother is the prototypical forever-Trooper who is insanely twinked out and dangerous, but whose combative attitude makes him unfit for promotion. Yet at the same time, he's the one everyone wants at their side when the shit hits the fan on patrol. And the best sparring buddy for the sergeants.

Animal Trooper meets a new Runner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBSGEzpw-8

Animal Trooper argues with Sarge on a RPT, after a gith just killed his buddy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_dWKAfZvI8

Eightball (the black marine) can be replaced with an elf trooper who he is totally racist towards, but still considers him a comrade and better than any non-Byn.

[wizturbo]

See that's the funny part to me.  I think Sergeants are a more difficult role than Lieutenants.  At least do them well.

[Eyeball]

Parachute the first one in, why not. Hopefully a Sergeant'll be ready to be the next one after that.

[BadSkeelz]

See that's the funny part to me.  I think Sergeants are a more difficult role than Lieutenants.  At least do them well.

I didn't find the Arm Lieutenant role very different from the Arm Sergeant, other than the increased amount of fucks I could not give towards non-clan PCs (and to a lesser extend, minions). A Byn LT is probably a lot more dynamic and officer-like than an Arm Lieutenant, since you actually will have multiple units to manage. On the flip side, now 100% of your minions are idiots as opposed to 50% (or whatever the VNPC/PC split is for Byn LTs), and they're all going to be in your hair.

[Hot_Dancer]

I kind of lost the thread on this discussion...

I don't think the staff cares much for flashy applications - they just want to build a pool to choose from.  Players with good track records with a history of promoting interaction in game are probably more likely to get a leadership sponsored role than a player who puts in a more polished application. A character application doesn't play the game for you - the game staff have probably seen a couple PC applications in their day and may not easily have the wool pulled over their eyes.

I think - if I was looking over applications for a sponsored leadership role I'd try to pick (if available) and I was a Storyteller in charge I'd:
Pick a player whose played a character with similar duties/functions in the past. One who involves other players in their machinations.
Pick a player who communicates well (read: mostly doesn't temper tantrum if shit don't go their way.)
Pick a player whose playtimes aligned with mine.
Then I'd get that rubber ducky out the gate as fast and hard as I could - really ramp up the support the first month before letting it fade to more manageable levels. (Cause I got a day job)
On an off note: I'd make sure the application is in line with the clan docs/game world (isn't too off the wall).

Staff probably does all these things already to varying order/degree. They know the game/players/trends better than I do.

So many steps can go wrong. Scheduling conflicts happen. Player burn out happens. As Barz said: Sometimes it's just the wrong time for the role, the wrong role, or for whatever reason it don't click. Repeating, sometimes the clan's playerbase just isn't supportive, is too needy or plainly is not fun to interact with.

[Kismetic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPcB3vWGO9k

[Zoltan]

Byn Lieutenant is pretty much the best role ever. EVER. It brought a manly, nostalgic tear to my weary eye when I saw that this role was getting opened up. As a player who was maybe a liiiiiiitle bit Byn-obsessed, it was like this ultimate era of personifying the Company itself. The uniform makes a difference. Anyway.

My lieutenant was an app'd in sergeant that got promoted eventually. I can sympathize with those who have been in that weird, new-combat-leader twilight zone. In fact, my lieutenant was never as good a fighter as his underlings. I have 10 simple steps that made it work for me:

1. Remember to leave all of your fucks behind when you log in.
2. Be unemployed IRL.
3. Have a clear idea of your character and don't let little things like coded "reality" get in the way.
4. Mudsex.
5. Remember that if characters were actually meant to climb down cliffs, they would all have the climb skill. Nosave climb is the Byn way.
6. Hobnob with EVERYONE. Why not? You're a fucking Byn Lieutenant, no one knows what to do with you.
7. Get yer Krath-damned hazard pay.
8. Buy a PC mul and get them killed by derp like a day later.
9. Adventures!
10. Die like an hour after declaring yourself unkillable.

You're welcome, hypothetical LT-app'ers.

More seriously, I've been on both sides of the new leader thing, and I can understand what Clearsighted is saying. I think it was worse when there didn't seem to be anybody around, though. I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect a combat role to stay alive for multiple years before attaining responsibility. Because there's a fundamental truth that works against such patient build up: taking the templar's/noble's/elf's/whatever's 'sid is how you do the job well, and that's precisely what's going to kill you. Someone can practically live forever with their carefully considered forays against Mob #2898347. What's going to get you is the exciting shit, the events and adventures. And you can only face such adventures so many times before you get the mantis head. Clans and plots and other players can't just sit around waiting for the Chosen One to grind up on scrabs and chalton. Things must always go forward, and so the call goes out.

That's my take on it anyway, and for what it's worth, I've been out of the loop for years now. If and when I play these days, I'm just that dusty extra you see from time to time. Just got all excited about those days of yore.

[Molten Heart]

I think it's always better to recruit leaders from within a clan. Doubly so when the clan is a combat clan. Combat leaders who come up through the ranks, who have improved from a starting character know the capabilities of their character. A good combat leader keeps their people alive in a fight. Know what they can handle and they know what they can't is important and difficult without pas experience to draw. It gives someone an idea of their coded limits to allow them to gauge their combat limitations.

Leadership is also about politics, networking. A shiny new leader has none of these. Fighting for your life with someone has a way of creating deep meaningful relationships. While all new leaders start out without connections, because Byn is a unique clan with many starting clan members that often leave and end up in other organizations. Coming up through the ranks allows a person to create deep connections with other's like themselves that can't be duplicated and have real and lasting value to a leader.

I'm surprised staff have opened up this high ranking of a role. I was under the impression there was a distinctive move to get away from roles that gave players significant authority over the virtual world, like senior nobles, [editird for clarity] senior merchant house family members, and red robe templars.

I can only imagine staff have a need, there's no one available in the clan to fill it, and they don't want to wait.

[Delirium]

Byn Lieutenant != Red Robe

I'm glad to see this position open up. The "new car smell" is a period every single character goes through, sponsored or not.

I think it's a bit silly but I can see both sides of the coin - either way, only way past is through. Just start playing and fuck the naysayers.

[whitt]

fuck the naysayers.

Consent rules.  Can't happen.   

[BadSkeelz]

It's a good thing app-in leaders come with the ability to command NPCs, because the first thing I would want to do as an app-in leader is kill the PCs of everyone in my clan who posts disparagingly about app-in leaders.

[Kryos]

I for one, who cried tear down that glass ceiling, am so happy to see this.

[KankWhisperer]

I for one, who cried tear down that glass ceiling, am so happy to see this.

I think the glass ceiling term is meant for when someone breaks through it, not spawns on top of it. Since they spawned atop the old glass ceiling it is more of a glass floor with the new glass ceiling above the. Really, a glass sandwich situation.

It's a good thing app-in leaders come with the ability to command NPCs, because the first thing I would want to do as an app-in leader is kill the PCs of everyone in my clan who posts disparagingly about app-in leaders.

Oh GDB posts are an excuse to kill PCs now? Please PM me your character so I can PK it forthwith.

[whitt]

I think the glass ceiling term is meant for when someone breaks through it, not spawns on top of it. Since they spawned atop the old glass ceiling it is more of a glass floor with the new glass ceiling above the. Really, a glass sandwich situation.

I think it would still apply as a glass-ceiling if there is no future ability for IC-sergeants to move up into the position.  Filling the initial one via App seems legit, and perhaps even wise if the current batch of sergeants are totally new to that role.  Sounds like the intent is to keep the position open after the first one finds the Shield Wall.

I also totally get that there are several, still-alive, former Byn sergeants who are probably former Byn sergeants because they wanted to progress to Lieutenant and were told, in no uncertain terms, "No".  For those players/characters this opening would likely be a bit painful.  Especially if those characters were now in a position where coming back to the Byn was unlikely or impossible.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff said earlier that they would have liked to have PCs "Break through" the glass ceiling, but then someone walked off a cliff.

Oh GDB posts are an excuse to kill PCs now? Please PM me your character so I can PK it forthwith.

They just remind me that playing a leader sucks and ungrateful minions are a large part of that. Though watching loyal minions progress and grow and maybe go off and do their own thing in the future is one of the best things about leadership roles.

[Clearsighted]

Leadership is also about politics, networking. A shiny new leader has none of these. Fighting for your life with someone has a way of creating deep meaningful relationships. While all new leaders start out without connections, because Byn is a unique clan with many starting clan members that often leave and end up in other organizations. Coming up through the ranks allows a person to create deep connections with other's like themselves that can't be duplicated and have real and lasting value to a leader.

What an incredibly great point. This is very very true. I've often been shocked by where the people I was a Runner with at one point eventually ended up, and how we still had a bond, even 1-2 RL years later.

[Molten Heart]

Byn Lieutenant != Red Robe

I'm glad to see this position open up. The "new car smell" is a period every single character goes through, sponsored or not.

I think it's a bit silly but I can see both sides of the coin - either way, only way past is through. Just start playing and fuck the naysayers.

How much effective power does the leader of several units of soldiers have?

I'm glad to see this position open. I think it'd be cool to see red robe roles come back too.

[BadSkeelz]

A Byn LT would have between 20 and 30 mercs of varying rank.

An Arm LT would have roughly the same number, probably less (they only command 2 units as opposed to 2-5 for the Byn).

A Red Robe commands thousands of dudes.

[Delirium]

I just hope they don't make that poor Byn Lt use up CGP to buff their combat skills.

Make them a monster, any combat character worth their salt in the Byn should be a goddamn monster by the time they reach LT.

[Xalle]

We won't make them use up CGP.

[Clearsighted]

I just hope they don't make that poor Byn Lt use up CGP to buff their combat skills.

Make them a monster, any combat character worth their salt in the Byn should be a goddamn monster by the time they reach LT.

They could give them 20 CGP worth of 'free' skill buffs, and they still wouldn't be a combat monster. And what makes a combat monster can't even be raised with CGP. OTOH, if you start giving people more than that, it gets weird.

I remember a quote to the effect that one should not be praised for their virtue, until they have had the power to be wicked. By the same token, one can hardly be praised for their great RP and non-twinkery, if they basically are made codedly powerful off the bat. Those that might have been tarred in the past for being 'too focused on skilling up', would likely have been happy to sit in the Gaj and RP all day if they came in with an advanced weapon branched.

Gickers are similar. There is absolutely zero pressure to skill up any magicker. It will happen surprisingly fast, no matter what you do. It's done in secret, where no one can see you, and doesn't require braving the sands (since you have 'nil').

A combat character walks a very very fine line between getting slaughtered in the next RPT and getting a bad reputation, or being slaughtered by characters with bad reputations, who nonetheless, will earn chuckles and applause for wiping you out.

This is all a completely off-tangent and irrelevant sidetrack on my part. The Byn Lieutenant is going to have dozens of challenges, and what coded power they come in with or without, is absolutely the least of it. Whatever they come in with is likely to be insufficient, anyways. Best case scenario, a former sergeant applies, who branched an advanced weapon the traditional way in the past, and then they get to start as a Lieutenant with an advanced weapon already branched. That'd be badass. I'd be annoyed if someone got it without having to experience the soul-killing grind first!

[Mordiggian]

By the same token, one can hardly be praised for their great RP and non-twinkery, if they basically are made codedly powerful off the bat.

I am not sure I understand your thought process here.

A well-played PC is a well-played PC.

[Molten Heart]

I believe Clearsighted is saying that having one's app accepted for a sponsored role isn't worthy of praise because the character, the player, and the role, weren't ever tested by the journey in getting there, they only arrive in their current place in the story with a brief background, some skill boosts and the imagination the player brings.

The virtue of getting the role is only an opportunity.

[Clearsighted]

By the same token, one can hardly be praised for their great RP and non-twinkery, if they basically are made codedly powerful off the bat.

I am not sure I understand your thought process here.

A well-played PC is a well-played PC.

This is a completely derailed tangent, that I'm just going to get into for the sake of responding to a question. Don't read too much into it. It's not a manifesto, just a few idle thoughts.

Player A apps a mundane character. He's been playing Armageddon for many years. He uses his knowledge of the game world to quickly skill up his mundane character. He runs the risk while doing so of being tarred as a twink, or too skill-focused. He does this because most non-aide/crafter/sponsored roles in the game are combat orientated (hunter, merc, soldier, etc) and he doesn't want to be a push-over.

Player B apps a mundane character. He immediately joins a clan and spend all his time RPing, with only a light bit of sparring. After several months of building beautiful relationships (or just mudsexing), he dies to something stupid. Perhaps he loses connection and a raptor kills him in the 15 seconds to get back on, or he gets one-shotted by a guard due to crime code, or forgetting he was carrying spice. A slightly more codedly powerful character would have survived both mishaps. If people realize he isn't a codedly powerful mundane, they likely won't respect him much.

Player B better watch his ass in an RPT, where the NPCs are often (not always) statted with an eye to the toughest PC in the group.

Player C apps a gicker. They can RP all they want, and bring the world alive, and focus all their time on forging relationships, because it is extremely easy to get maxed out as a gicker, and requires zero survival skills. 'Nil' means they can sit somewhere in safety, cast a couple times, then spend the rest of the day showing everyone what a great RPer/mudsexer they are.

Player D apps into a sponsored role. They can hit the ground running without needing to worry about skilling themselves up, and thus skipping past all the possible temptation or danger of being tarred as 'too skill focused'.

Point is. Some guilds have greater challenges than others, getting to the point where they can focus on RP, without knowing (through long experience) that doing otherwise risks a humiliating death.

I'd be mildly annoyed (more ruefully amused, really) at seeing someone start with an advanced weapon, without having traditionally earned it in the past. Because it is just about impossible to acquire such skill, without at some point, tripping over somebody's arbitrary measure of who is a twink or not. On an entirely unrelated note, I'd be curious to know, of all the Arm staffers, what percentage of them have ever branched a warrior's combat skills.

[Delirium]

We won't make them use up CGP.

[BadSkeelz]

I think expecting app-in combat leader PCs to be combat powerhouses and judging their merit on that is kind of missing the point. Being a leader isn't about being able to hit things really hard - dwarves and half-giants do it better. A good leader doesn't necessarily have to get in to combat at all: if their recruiting, networking, and Fun Generating skills can keep the clan well-stocked with combat beefcakes who are engaged and having a good time, they're just as successful as Lieutenant Slamfist who can 2 shot a met and wipes his ass with horror shell.

I'd much rather have a leader who makes the clan fun to play in than one who can kill things really good on their own but is a bore to be around.

[wizturbo]

I think expecting app-in combat leader PCs to be combat powerhouses and judging their merit on that is kind of missing the point. Being a leader isn't about being able to hit things really hard - dwarves and half-giants do it better. A good leader doesn't necessarily have to get in to combat at all: if their recruiting, networking, and Fun Generating skills can keep the clan well-stocked with combat beefcakes who are engaged and having a good time, they're just as successful as Lieutenant Slamfist who can 2 shot a met and wipes his ass with horror shell.

I'd much rather have a leader who makes the clan fun to play in than one who can kill things really good on their own but is a bore to be around.

True, but if the tradition is that T'zai Byn Lieutenants come from the ranks of successful Sergeants...they're going to know how to wield weapons VERY well to survive long enough to make it that far.  To make a Lieutenant that can't whoop some new Sergeant's ass would be jarring in my mind.  That's not to say that any Lieutenant should be able to whoop any Sergeant's ass...  just talking about starting values here.

[BadSkeelz]

If you're relying on the asswhooping power of your Lieutenant to get a contract done, somethings already gone horribly wrong.

[Case]

I think expecting app-in combat leader PCs to be combat powerhouses and judging their merit on that is kind of missing the point. Being a leader isn't about being able to hit things really hard - dwarves and half-giants do it better. A good leader doesn't necessarily have to get in to combat at all: if their recruiting, networking, and Fun Generating skills can keep the clan well-stocked with combat beefcakes who are engaged and having a good time, they're just as successful as Lieutenant Slamfist who can 2 shot a met and wipes his ass with horror shell.

I'd much rather have a leader who makes the clan fun to play in than one who can kill things really good on their own but is a bore to be around.

Well said my protege

[Synthesis]

Yeah, not every Byn Sergeant has been a warrior.

I'm pretty sure there was a burglar Sarge a while back.  There's no way he was kicking ass and taking names, but I'm assuming he did an okay job.

[Narf]

Yeah, not every Byn Sergeant has been a warrior.

I'm pretty sure there was a burglar Sarge a while back.  There's no way he was kicking ass and taking names, but I'm assuming he did an okay job.

That would be so awesome!

You could break into your recruit's apartments while they were mudsexing and force them to go "as is" to the training yard.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Riev]

One struggle of a leader, unfortunately, is figuring out what the goal IS. You can invest in your minions, find out what they want, what their desires are, and help them work towards it, but most don't KNOW. They just know they want to do SOMETHING.

I imagine its kind of like being on Staff.

[BadSkeelz]

You can get away with killing your annoying charges more readily as a Leader-PC than as a Staff member, however.

[Delirium]

One struggle of a leader, unfortunately, is figuring out what the goal IS. You can invest in your minions, find out what they want, what their desires are, and help them work towards it, but most don't KNOW. They just know they want to do SOMETHING.

I imagine its kind of like being on Staff.

So get them to believe in your cause, since they clearly don't have a cause to begin with!

[Malken]

A leader without a cause is not a leader.

[Akaramu]

How to infect your minions with your cause:

[Molten Heart]

.

[Riev]

I think that from the perspective of a player, from an OOC perspective, many times it's just about having fun while pursuing the "what" portion, "what" being the leaders goals.

I agree. Its why I like clans like the Byn, or indie mercenary-like groups, because if I don't -HAVE- a plan, and the group is kinda stagnant, you can always latch onto OTHER people's plans.

[bardlyone]

I find:

<I/We> must have <clan/pc>'s help with <mcguffin of choice>!

makes for a pretty solid formula for keeping a goal at all times, with an increasingly larger mcguffin as needed, and mcguffin being pretty much any possible goal that makes sense and is mutually beneficial. The last kudos I got was actually about how self made my pc's goals were and how they always stayed busy and were such a self starter. Admittedly, i was from the leader pc they were working 'beneath', rather than as a leader pc in their own right, but really, it scales up in orders of magnitude, because the formula always involves more people in the game world and spreads the fun and goals around.

[Is Friday]

If you currently play a leader or want to become one, this video is worth your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZoJKF_VuA

This is the core of how leadership works. On a fundamental level if you can inspire some to believe in your character internally, you'll also inspire others that want to oppose you as a villain. Happens every time I'm playing a leader.

[Rathustra]

I clicked this thread and saw a post by Mordi and for a brief moment I thought he'd rejoined staff.

[lostinspace]

IMO non-coded powerful leaders are fine as long as they're generating fun. The downside is that an errant aggro mob might end that fun relatively quickly on a contract where a more codedly capable leader PC would have survived and lived to keep on generating fun.

As far as I can tell that's the only downside of not being a code powerhouse leader, turnover rate. And honestly I like hearing that little bell chime, especially when it's not me on the receiving end.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I don't have a problem with Leaders getting bumped up in skill.  I do think that people that have already focused their time into the clan should get first dibs though...In the Byn anyway.   Obviously some commoner isn't going to just become a noble.   

[Malken]

I feel like now that I have to deal with students' parents who feel like their kids are special snowflakes that need to be sheltered from all the evils of life (which is a very broad definition I've come to find out, not to mention that these are university students) I could probably pull off a leadership role without wanting to kill myself two weeks in.