Leadership Role Thoughts (Derail from RAT)

[Clearsighted]

I just post up a kickass exciting new vertical progression role, and in less than an hour the GDB starts complaining that the GDB is boring and staff have veto'd vertical progression roles. GDB lyfe.

They likely feel it isn't really "progression" if it is a role call app where staff predetermines who gets the role with no IC efforts involved.

What have they progressed to? Getting their app approved?

They didn't exactly rise through the ranks.

I think what people mean is they want more "vertical progression" roles that involve some progression due to their IC efforts.

Either way, I am very glad to see these sorts of roles being opened back up. I personally like having them around to interact with. It mixes things up.

Pretty much this. Sometimes it's baffling how writing a good report/app trumps anything actually done in game. I wrote I did all these badass things to deserve a promotion in a report. Good job I guess.

This really doesn't prove anything about the glass ceiling argument. They app in above the one most PCs meet.

Problem with apps, such as the one for the Byn lieutenant, is that it tends to attract the kind of people who can come up with pretty apps all day but who flit from one role to the next, and who may or may not have any real staying power. You need someone with history, gravitas and stability, and that seems to rarely come from people that app into leadership positions in combat heavy/experience heavy clans.

I think something like 9 out of 10 of all characters I've encountered who apped into a leadership position (not counting templars/nobles/GMH agents for whom there is zero IC expectation of even minimal charisma or competence, owing to the accident of their birth) basically sucked. No offense to anyone. If you're reading this and are upset, feel free to assume you're the one out of ten that impressed me. By contrast, I've almost always been quite happy with the hard nosed types that rose up through the ranks and earned their spurs through Darwinian attrition.

The kind of players that really deserve to rise to Lieutenant type positions, are those that have put ~10-20 years into a clan, and seen it prosper under them, and who have demonstrated the ability to train up good NCOs.

Armageddon has had no shortage of those kind of quality characters. At least two or three of them show up every RL year, but they virtually always end up dead ended, or so it seems.

EDIT: And the kind of people that would be a great Byn lieutenant? They're probably good at keeping their characters alive and motivated a long time, and are probably hesitant about ditching those they're responsible for, to go app. I guess it would need to be a perfect storm of one of those types dying just as a role is announced, and then getting selected.

[Barzalene]

I worried that I'd hurt feelings and I wanted to offer an apology and explanation, if that's the case.

... less linear and more vertical plotting would be fun.

What do you mean?

I also do not know what this means, but I'm interested.

The glass ceiling and difficulty in change are problematic in that they make story arcs small. Now, let me say I get why we're set up that way. We have some strong and charismatic players. We have players who do accomplishment well. If there was no caps we'd have players playing red robes either inappropriately, or in manners that would not lead to much interaction or fun. We'd have the world changing every week as the balance of power swayed back and forth like a row boat in a typhoon. So, I get it.

But I think there should be more opportunities for people to make a mark on the world. Make it hard. But not impossible. If hard is too easy, make it harder.
Make it possible to move up if your pc is great.   I think it's more fun to fail to achieve than succeed at doing nothing. Even if the rise is artificial. Even if the new power that comes with moving up is limited to the point of insignificant, it's always fun to have something to shoot for.

This is a critical assessment of something I've observed, not recently, but over the last several years. It's a very specific criticism. It is in no way a vote of no confidence. In general, I feel very happy and not particularly critical of staff. I like you guys. I hope you all know that.

It's also not about anything that's recent. I want to offer a little context.
When I started playing, Ysania had started a new noble house. (There are organizations now, and they are just as impressive, and very likely to be longer lasting. It's awesome.) Kasyn (Kayasn? Kasan? You know who I mean) had been everything from a bynner to I could swear templar but maybe just high ranking military. In two city states. Isahn (ok maybe that's not an ideal example) was a red robe. I understand why some of these things are no longer possible.

And I hear your response: Hey Deb! Look around. We're doing that already. So, cool. Thanks. And again if you felt that your work wasn't being appreciated I apologize. Because it sucks to work hard then be shat on. I hope no one felt I was doing that.

[Clearsighted]

Random Armageddon Thoughts is not the place to make sweeping, demeaning generalizations about sponsored PCs guys. Please be nice.

Was this in reference to my post? I didn't make any sweeping or demeaning generalizations. I made a couple of very specific observations based on my own years of experience. It excluded any templar/noble/GMH family type roles, and focused explicitly on combat/experience heavy roles.

Historically, a lot of people have been attracted to these 'sergeant' roles and gone into them with stars in their eyes, only to get a very rude awakening.

The reality is, being a Sergeant sucks to some extent to begin with, as it is gruelling hard work to do well, and leave capable NCOs behind. So, tying into Desertman's comment, I'd be more excited about seeing a long-time Sergeant reach LT. And that ties into the vertical plot debate.

[Is Friday]

Random Armageddon Thoughts is not the place to make sweeping, demeaning generalizations about sponsored PCs guys. Please be nice.

Was this in reference to my post? I didn't make any sweeping or demeaning generalizations. I made a couple of very specific observations based on my own years of experience. It excluded any templar/noble/GMH family type roles, and focused explicitly on combat/experience heavy roles.

Historically, a lot of people have been attracted to these 'sergeant' roles and gone into them with stars in their eyes, only to get a very rude awakening.

The reality is, being a Sergeant sucks to some extent to begin with, as it is gruelling hard work to do well, and leave capable NCOs behind. So, tying into Desertman's comment, I'd be more excited about seeing a long-time Sergeant reach LT. And that ties into the vertical plot debate.

My cynicism believes that staff is more inclined to ask for someone to app into a second tier leadership role (LT) because they can impose more restrictions on the role. Therefore, it can/will be stored for doing something a "homegrown" officer might do, and is far more replaceable than these codedly competent, normal PCs that "climb" the ranks.

[Hot_Dancer]

I don't think it is fair to dog on people who app into any leadership position in any clan.

That shit is hard.

Hard truth - sometimes these roles show up because the current pbase of said clan is full of people who refuse to take leadership themselves or need someone to hold their hand. App into a leadership role for these types of clan members and go perform a miracle.

[Barzalene]

I have an additional theory.
I think we've all written up characters and gotten in game and just not clicked. Sometimes it takes a long time for that connection to an idea that looked great on paper. Sometimes it never happens. With a sponsored role, in addition to that transition period you have a lot of pressures that may make it harder to get to that moment where it all comes together.

[Clearsighted]

I don't think it is fair to dog on people who app into any leadership position in any clan.

That shit is hard.

Hard truth - sometimes these roles show up because the current pbase of said clan is full of people who refuse to take leadership themselves or need someone to hold their hand. App into a leadership role for these types of clan members and go perform a miracle.

Yeah. You're right. It just seems like when these rolecall announcements get made, there's a rush of people who think "Oh, wouldn't being a Sergeant be *fun!*" and come up with some elaborate background for it, without realizing the reality is a soul-killing grind with no chance of further advancement.

I'm not dogging on people who shoulder the burden of leadership. I'm dogging on those who immediately flinch from the leadership and flake out.

The fact that someone answered a rolecall is irrelevant. The only relevant point is that those who reach a combat leadership role via Darwinian attrition are the ones likely to appreciate, stick to it, and lead those around them. Those who have it handed to them, are more likely not to appreciate it or efficiently lead those around them.

Therefore: I'd be real excited at seeing someone who's put 10-20 years into a clan get promoted to LT, and that ties into the point made to Xalle earlier. If someone has put 15-20 game years into a clan and proven they can train up and mould multiple quality and competent NCOs who could fulfill the Sergeant role, they deserve a promotion. But it basically never happens.

Moreover, I think the quality of leadership would raise overall, if people thought they really could reach a higher rank if they put in a couple quality decades as Sergeant, instead of getting burnt out at the dead end.

The kind of guy that is okay with that dead end, and keeps at it for decades, despite no chance of promotion, and who does a fantastic job training and leading people? An incredibly rare gem.

[AdamBlue]

[quote
The kind of guy that is okay with that dead end, and keeps at it for decades, despite no chance of promotion, and who does a fantastic job training and leading people? An incredibly rare gem.
[/quote]

So you mean anyone who plays any race that isn't human?

[Clearsighted]

So you mean anyone who plays any race that isn't human?

If they're in a leadership/sergeant position, then sure. Anyways. The Byn has plenty of NPCs/VNPCs who aren't human, above the rank of sergeant. And I've seen a few others among the GMHs.

[Eurynomos]

The game is changing, Tuluk is closed, and Byn Lieutenant has opened up as a vertical climb position.

Why hold on to your butthurt when you can let it flow through you, and see all the wonderful new opportunities arising?

[Clearsighted]

The game is changing, Tuluk is closed, and Byn Lieutenant has opened up as a vertical climb position.

Why hold on to your butthurt when you can let it flow through you, and see all the wonderful new opportunities arising?

Hah. I wouldn't even be playing, if I didn't think the game was changing for the better, lately.

I am not holding onto any butthurt. It does seem that a lot of people are acting butthurt over the observation that sponsored sergeant-type roles tend to not do very well. But I could really care less.

But it's worth noting that you're missing the point about what most people consider a 'vertical climb'. Going from Runner to Trooper, to Sergeant to Lieutenant, is a vertical climb. Coming in as Lieutenant is just a sponsored role. A couple other posters already made this point. My sole contribution was reflecting on the fact that I've seen a lot of sponsored leaders flake out, whereas those that earn it, tend to stick with it.

That's all I have to say. I am not leading a crusade here, or trying to be the change. It was just an observation. It's curious though, that one storyteller called it a sweeping, demeaning generalization on all sponsored roles (it was specific to sergeant-types), and another called me butthurt. But I guess it touched a nerve somewhere.

Many good things have been done/changed in the game lately. It's cool that the Byn is getting a lieutenant.  Staff is doing a good job.

[Rokal]

I have an additional theory.
I think we've all written up characters and gotten in game and just not clicked. Sometimes it takes a long time for that connection to an idea that looked great on paper. Sometimes it never happens. With a sponsored role, in addition to that transition period you have a lot of pressures that may make it harder to get to that moment where it all comes together.

I can relate to this very well.

[Eurynomos]

Who's to say the LT position won't be open to vertical climbers?

It would just be a very difficult position to get to IG -- Almost all of the Byn Sergeants i've seen in game have the aspiration of becoming a Lieutenant, but it's typically very premature (Only after being a Sergeant for a few RL months, by example). It isn't that it's impossible to attain, it's that usually they fall in a sinkhole or over a Shield Wall or get blicked by a Gith Arrow.

[Clearsighted]

Who's to say the LT position won't be open to vertical climbers?

It would just be a very difficult position to get to IG -- Almost all of the Byn Sergeants i've seen in game have the aspiration of becoming a Lieutenant, but it's typically very premature (Only after being a Sergeant for a few RL months, by example). It isn't that it's impossible to attain, it's that usually they fall in a sinkhole or over a Shield Wall or get blicked by a Gith Arrow.

You're right that a lot of people are very unrealistic about such things. Especially after only a few RL months of being a steady hand or presence.

When I think of truly exemplary leaders, I think of those who have put at least a RL year+ into a sergeant-type position, and in the process, trained up multiple potential NCOs to replace them.

That's my 'gauge' for a Lieutenant. But it's just my personal opinion.

[wizturbo]

Problem with apps, such as the one for the Byn lieutenant, is that it tends to attract the kind of people who can come up with pretty apps all day but who flit from one role to the next, and who may or may not have any real staying power. You need someone with history, gravitas and stability, and that seems to rarely come from people that app into leadership positions in combat heavy/experience heavy clans.

I think this expectation of "high quality leaders" in a world like Zalanthas is hilariously naive.  The Zalanthian equivalent to the "people who can come up with pretty apps all day" are far more likely to get a leadership position in Zalanthas than someone who actually can do the job well on the ground.

It's just like real life!  Most leaders are terrible, and the rare good ones are generally politically backstabbed, or advance so far into an organization that they're no longer in touch with the rank and file.  Only a few rare gems actually manage to be in a position where they make a difference.  Why should Zalanthas be any different?

All realism aside...what's best for the game?  Someone in a leadership position that generates fun.  I don't see how someone who applies into this role cannot qualify for that.  The staff can look at their past PC's and go "yup, that gal sure brought the fun!" and off we go.  Having to wait 10-20 IC years to have a PC grow ICLy into a position where they can be promoted sounds pretty crazy to me if the staff want this vertical role filled today.  With that said, if there are PCs who qualify for advancement, having those PC's take the reins would definitely add more fun and flavor to the game...but having a long lived, leadership/politically minded 10+ IC year Bynner is a rare, rare thing.

[Asanadas]

Having played a leadership position, my opinion is that it can be a joke. 

What will make or break a leadership role is the staff members overseeing it. Player leaders are the ones who are (by rules) required to remain in contact with their storyteller via reports. If a player leader feels that their efforts aren't being appreciated (or in my case, gets the impression that their organic actions are against what staff wants), they will burn out quick. If they witness threads of forced plots fizzle out and disappear from relevancy time and again, they will burn out quick. If they feel that their staff member has let down or failed to respond to members of their clan in a justified fashion, they will burn out quick. Are staff the fulcrum, then? I would say yes -- one of the fulcrums, at least.

Basically, caring about the opinions of others on an OOC level (and their treatment) will burn out a leader. It's a weight that's constantly on their shoulders, and rarely on non-leader characters by comparison.

Apped-in leaders start with an adolescent fixation on how others rate and value them. This is opposed to characters who have IRL months in-game, and their character's reputation precedes them in nearly all cases. Whereas if an earned-their-spurs leader has a refuge of experience to fall back on and assure themselves they're doing a good job, apped-in leaders have no such comfort. Through the second-guessing, and general sludge-drag of responsibilities, they will burn out quicker than their counterpart.

Is it staff's job to counter this by reassuring the new character? Absolutely. Through any shape or means, IC or OOCly.

The counterpart to this paranoia would be a simple piece of advice saying, "Don't care what other people think of you." In my humble opinion, people who would play their characters this way just don't make good leaders. On top of that, I'm sure there has been rude awakenings where staff have threatened to store or have stored characters on account of this.

     Moving on to the concept of a "good leader"...

Leadership can be defined by two powerful elements.

• Create a better environment compared to one without you.
• Help others reach their potential.

It's as simple as that. Any player who does these two things is a good player, in my view.

[Clearsighted]

Problem with apps, such as the one for the Byn lieutenant, is that it tends to attract the kind of people who can come up with pretty apps all day but who flit from one role to the next, and who may or may not have any real staying power. You need someone with history, gravitas and stability, and that seems to rarely come from people that app into leadership positions in combat heavy/experience heavy clans.

I think this expectation of "high quality leaders" in a world like Zalanthas is hilariously naive.  The Zalanthian equivalent to the "people who can come up with pretty apps all day" are far more likely to get a leadership position in Zalanthas than someone who actually can do the job well on the ground.

It's just like real life!  Most leaders are terrible, and the rare good ones are generally politically backstabbed, or advance so far into an organization that they're no longer in touch with the rank and file.  Only a few rare gems actually manage to be in a position where they make a difference.  Why should Zalanthas be any different?

All realism aside...what's best for the game?  Someone in a leadership position that generates fun.  I don't see how someone who applies into this role cannot qualify for that.  The staff can look at their past PC's and go "yup, that gal sure brought the fun!" and off we go.  Having to wait 10-20 IC years to have a PC grow ICLy into a position where they can be promoted sounds pretty crazy to me if the staff want this vertical role filled today.

If someone is generating fun, then by definition they're not flaking out, and thus nothing I said had anything to do with them. My observation had more to do with who tends to OOCly flake out the most.

There are a lot of roles where incompetence is a massive plus, like templars and such. Them being arbitrary douches is what makes Armageddon so much fun. Sergeants are a bit different, as they're like the Arby's managers of the game world, who do most of the mentoring. I personally, (just to show where our opinions are contrasted) think its naive to not realize that sergeant roles are very different from templars/nobles/GMH family in terms of expectations/duties.

I do think there's been a few characters that have put in a ton of time and effort, and never got any love for it. But that has nothing to do with this. I do think most people have been conditioned to believe they'll never advance beyond Sergeant. I think some are naive and presumptuous who do good in a role for a few months, then start thinking staff is out to get them because they're not promoted to Captain.

But I think if a dudes been sergeant for a RL year+, has been active the whole time, and has a lot of loyal subordinates, then he deserves some kind of laurel.

Staff seem to be moving in a direction of more verticality/laurels, so that's a good thing. Lots of good design decisions have been made lately. Warehouses, Tuluk closing, Lieutenants coming back, etc. It's all good.

Having played a leadership position... (etc)

Good post.

[Xalle]

The Byn's in a solid place at the moment, which is why I thought it was a good time to add this role to augment the (newly appointed) sergeants' role.  The aim is to add a new dimension of fun and interest to the clan - not to 'fix' anything.  If someone hasn't put in prior IG effort in the Byn, rising through the ranks and proving they know what the clan is about and what it entails, which means having done the leg work, I'm not so interested in giving them the role.  Yes, the effort will have been with prior characters, but that's valid to me, and there have been some really successful 'sponsored in' combat heavy/experienced roles, both in recent years and the past.

The position is also open to anyone who's suitable who wants to rise through the ranks from runner to Lt. By suitable, I mean having a PC that fits the role, and if the player's willing to take on the demanding task they'd need to be constructive and not a headache to collaborate with, and trustworthy in the role. That means stuff like not trying to change the clan to something that doesn't fit the documentation or game world, having a combative attitude when dealing with staff and not being willing to listen to feedback and advice, spending most of their time twinking, or prone to consistently doing anachronistic things for ooc lulz, etc. Pretty obvious stuff like that.   There's  the simple fact that not every sergeant becomes a Lt in the virtual world, and not every Bynner is suitable for sergeant or LT - regardless of longevity.

There are some very cool and interesting things in the works, and I do my best to offer support and try to enable players where I have the power to do so and it makes sense in the world. So it should be a pretty fun, meaty challenge for an experienced player. 

[Clearsighted]

The Byn's in a solid place at the moment, which is why I thought it was a good time to add this role to augment the (newly appointed) sergeants' role.  The aim is to add a new dimension of fun and interest to the clan - not to 'fix' anything.  If someone hasn't put in prior IG effort in the Byn, rising through the ranks and proving they know what the clan is about and what it entails, which means having done the leg work, I'm not so interested in giving them the role.  Yes, the effort will have been with prior characters, but that's valid to me, and there have been some really successful 'sponsored in' combat heavy/experienced roles, both in recent years and the past.

The position is also open to anyone who's suitable who wants to rise through the ranks from runner to Lt. By suitable, I mean having a PC that fits the role, and if the player's willing to take on the demanding task they'd need to be constructive and not a headache to collaborate with, and trustworthy in the role. That means stuff like not trying to change the clan to something that doesn't fit the documentation or game world, having a combative attitude when dealing with staff and not being willing to listen to feedback and advice, spending most of their time twinking, or prone to consistently doing anachronistic things for ooc lulz, etc. Pretty obvious stuff like that.   There's  the simple fact that not every sergeant becomes a Lt in the virtual world, and not every Bynner is suitable for sergeant or LT - regardless of longevity.

There are some very cool and interesting things in the works, and I do my best to offer support and try to enable players where I have the power to do so and it makes sense in the world. So it should be a pretty fun, meaty challenge for an experienced player.  

Don't get me wrong. I might as well clarify, because it was my original post that sparked the divergence. Whether it's sponsored or not, it's still a good move. Bringing back lieutenants is a good thing. The game has always been better, IMO, when there were one or two floating around. Because of the kind of RP and plots that get stirred up around those military-type figures, which templars are a bit too distant/above to really be a prime mover in.

[KankWhisperer]

10-1 this new lieutenant was so brilliant in their virtual deeds that they made lieutenant by their early twenties.

[Quell]

10-1 this new lieutenant was so brilliant in their virtual deeds that they made lieutenant by their early twenties.

Does having a daddy with a large coin purse count as brilliant now?

[Desertman]

One of the major issues I find with "Play a high-end combat sponsored role.", is everyone knows you haven't really done shit. You walk in, they look at you, and everyone knows you may be a shit leader in every capacity. You haven't proven anything.

You may be a complete fuckup when it comes to actually leading, and everyone knows it. So you have that awkward moment in the beginning where everyone is "giving you respect" they all know you haven't earned and everyone is pretending like you are great, when everyone knows you may very well not be.

I like to think of them as "paper leaders", until they actually prove something, even when I am playing them. All they have proven to anyone that matters when their boots hit the sand is they can write an app that staffers like and that staffers like them. It's not easy to walk into a room full of underlings, most of whom may actually be better than you, and have proven it....and then start handing out orders like you know what's up.

A lot of them will even dislike you for even existing because you basically "jumped the ladder" on them. Some of them make it obvious.

Kudos to the players who take on these roles and do them well. I know how daunting that task can be. Doing them well is a whole other ball game, but I've seen it done.

I'm just glad Byn Lieutenants are playable again, even if the first one is coming in as a special app. For a good long while (many years) staff was of the opinion that Byn Lieutenants were never played "the way they intended", so they ended up closing them down all together. Apparently all of the past Lieutenants had taken on more of "higher end Sergeant" role, instead of playing Lieutenants, which wasn't how they envisioned them to be played.

I can only assume staff has put together a new set of guidelines or something for Lieutenants to follow which will make them "more playable" for players, and that is very exciting.

Having a Lieutenant walk in was always an awesome experience for me as a new Bynner back in the day, and I look forward to new players we have now getting a chance to meet them, and maybe even one day BE them.

It's good times.

[Rathustra]

I'm just glad Byn Lieutenants are playable again, even if the first one is coming in as a special app. For a good long while (many years) staff was of the opinion that Byn Lieutenants were never played "the way they intended", so they ended up closing them down all together.
It's good times.

Can't comment on this but The last PC Lt. was around before I was Staff. It was great to play under them and they seemed pretty awesome. They are what I think of when I worked with Xalle to make this role available. We decided the time was ripe now, especially as our plans to make it a promotion-based role at first... fell down a hole. So we figured - let's start solid then have the role be there to achieve through play once our apped in one has finished.

[Desertman]

I'm just glad Byn Lieutenants are playable again, even if the first one is coming in as a special app. For a good long while (many years) staff was of the opinion that Byn Lieutenants were never played "the way they intended", so they ended up closing them down all together.
It's good times.

Can't comment on this. The last PC Lt. was around before I was Staff. It was great to play under them and they seemed pretty awesome. They are what I think of when I worked with Xalle to make this role available. We decided the time was ripe now, especially as our plans to make it a promotion-based role at first... fell down a hole. So we figured - let's start solid then have the role be there to achieve through play once our apped in one has finished.

Yar, it's a quote from another/different staffer.

[Rathustra]

Well, I imagine they're better able to comment on it (if they were staffing at the time). But I've got the go-ahead for this role with a clear specification for what the role will be doing - so maybe we're getting the best of both worlds.