Leadership Role Thoughts (Derail from RAT)

[Rhyden]

One of the major issues I find with "Play a high-end combat sponsored role.", is everyone knows you haven't really done shit. You walk in, they look at you, and everyone knows you may be a shit leader in every capacity. You haven't proven anything.

For some reason this makes me think of:


I think it's great staff are asking for a new Byn lieutenant. Good luck to whoever fills those shit-smeared boots.

[Rathustra]

Bonus points for the guy to put in a David Schwimmer Byn Lt. application.

[Clearsighted]

One of the major issues I find with "Play a high-end combat sponsored role.", is everyone knows you haven't really done shit. You walk in, they look at you, and everyone knows you may be a shit leader in every capacity. You haven't proven anything.

For some reason this makes me think of:


I think it's great staff are asking for a new Byn lieutenant. Good luck to whoever fills those shit-smeared boots.

The irony is that by many accounts, the dude was a decent leader. He probably did not deserve to be portrayed by David Schwimmer. But this is hilarious, anyways.

[Desertman]

Best Byn Lieutenant ever.....Animal Mother. (AKA, Jayne Cobb as well.)

[Clearsighted]

Nah. Animal Mother is the prototypical forever-Trooper who is insanely twinked out and dangerous, but whose combative attitude makes him unfit for promotion. Yet at the same time, he's the one everyone wants at their side when the shit hits the fan on patrol. And the best sparring buddy for the sergeants.

Animal Trooper meets a new Runner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBSGEzpw-8

Animal Trooper argues with Sarge on a RPT, after a gith just killed his buddy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_dWKAfZvI8

Eightball (the black marine) can be replaced with an elf trooper who he is totally racist towards, but still considers him a comrade and better than any non-Byn.

[wizturbo]

See that's the funny part to me.  I think Sergeants are a more difficult role than Lieutenants.  At least do them well.

[Eyeball]

Parachute the first one in, why not. Hopefully a Sergeant'll be ready to be the next one after that.

[BadSkeelz]

See that's the funny part to me.  I think Sergeants are a more difficult role than Lieutenants.  At least do them well.

I didn't find the Arm Lieutenant role very different from the Arm Sergeant, other than the increased amount of fucks I could not give towards non-clan PCs (and to a lesser extend, minions). A Byn LT is probably a lot more dynamic and officer-like than an Arm Lieutenant, since you actually will have multiple units to manage. On the flip side, now 100% of your minions are idiots as opposed to 50% (or whatever the VNPC/PC split is for Byn LTs), and they're all going to be in your hair.

[Hot_Dancer]

I kind of lost the thread on this discussion...

I don't think the staff cares much for flashy applications - they just want to build a pool to choose from.  Players with good track records with a history of promoting interaction in game are probably more likely to get a leadership sponsored role than a player who puts in a more polished application. A character application doesn't play the game for you - the game staff have probably seen a couple PC applications in their day and may not easily have the wool pulled over their eyes.

I think - if I was looking over applications for a sponsored leadership role I'd try to pick (if available) and I was a Storyteller in charge I'd:
Pick a player whose played a character with similar duties/functions in the past. One who involves other players in their machinations.
Pick a player who communicates well (read: mostly doesn't temper tantrum if shit don't go their way.)
Pick a player whose playtimes aligned with mine.
Then I'd get that rubber ducky out the gate as fast and hard as I could - really ramp up the support the first month before letting it fade to more manageable levels. (Cause I got a day job)
On an off note: I'd make sure the application is in line with the clan docs/game world (isn't too off the wall).

Staff probably does all these things already to varying order/degree. They know the game/players/trends better than I do.

So many steps can go wrong. Scheduling conflicts happen. Player burn out happens. As Barz said: Sometimes it's just the wrong time for the role, the wrong role, or for whatever reason it don't click. Repeating, sometimes the clan's playerbase just isn't supportive, is too needy or plainly is not fun to interact with.

[Kismetic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPcB3vWGO9k

[Zoltan]

Byn Lieutenant is pretty much the best role ever. EVER. It brought a manly, nostalgic tear to my weary eye when I saw that this role was getting opened up. As a player who was maybe a liiiiiiitle bit Byn-obsessed, it was like this ultimate era of personifying the Company itself. The uniform makes a difference. Anyway.

My lieutenant was an app'd in sergeant that got promoted eventually. I can sympathize with those who have been in that weird, new-combat-leader twilight zone. In fact, my lieutenant was never as good a fighter as his underlings. I have 10 simple steps that made it work for me:

1. Remember to leave all of your fucks behind when you log in.
2. Be unemployed IRL.
3. Have a clear idea of your character and don't let little things like coded "reality" get in the way.
4. Mudsex.
5. Remember that if characters were actually meant to climb down cliffs, they would all have the climb skill. Nosave climb is the Byn way.
6. Hobnob with EVERYONE. Why not? You're a fucking Byn Lieutenant, no one knows what to do with you.
7. Get yer Krath-damned hazard pay.
8. Buy a PC mul and get them killed by derp like a day later.
9. Adventures!
10. Die like an hour after declaring yourself unkillable.

You're welcome, hypothetical LT-app'ers.

More seriously, I've been on both sides of the new leader thing, and I can understand what Clearsighted is saying. I think it was worse when there didn't seem to be anybody around, though. I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect a combat role to stay alive for multiple years before attaining responsibility. Because there's a fundamental truth that works against such patient build up: taking the templar's/noble's/elf's/whatever's 'sid is how you do the job well, and that's precisely what's going to kill you. Someone can practically live forever with their carefully considered forays against Mob #2898347. What's going to get you is the exciting shit, the events and adventures. And you can only face such adventures so many times before you get the mantis head. Clans and plots and other players can't just sit around waiting for the Chosen One to grind up on scrabs and chalton. Things must always go forward, and so the call goes out.

That's my take on it anyway, and for what it's worth, I've been out of the loop for years now. If and when I play these days, I'm just that dusty extra you see from time to time. Just got all excited about those days of yore.

[Molten Heart]

I think it's always better to recruit leaders from within a clan. Doubly so when the clan is a combat clan. Combat leaders who come up through the ranks, who have improved from a starting character know the capabilities of their character. A good combat leader keeps their people alive in a fight. Know what they can handle and they know what they can't is important and difficult without pas experience to draw. It gives someone an idea of their coded limits to allow them to gauge their combat limitations.

Leadership is also about politics, networking. A shiny new leader has none of these. Fighting for your life with someone has a way of creating deep meaningful relationships. While all new leaders start out without connections, because Byn is a unique clan with many starting clan members that often leave and end up in other organizations. Coming up through the ranks allows a person to create deep connections with other's like themselves that can't be duplicated and have real and lasting value to a leader.

I'm surprised staff have opened up this high ranking of a role. I was under the impression there was a distinctive move to get away from roles that gave players significant authority over the virtual world, like senior nobles, [editird for clarity] senior merchant house family members, and red robe templars.

I can only imagine staff have a need, there's no one available in the clan to fill it, and they don't want to wait.

[Delirium]

Byn Lieutenant != Red Robe

I'm glad to see this position open up. The "new car smell" is a period every single character goes through, sponsored or not.

I think it's a bit silly but I can see both sides of the coin - either way, only way past is through. Just start playing and fuck the naysayers.

[whitt]

fuck the naysayers.

Consent rules.  Can't happen.   

[BadSkeelz]

It's a good thing app-in leaders come with the ability to command NPCs, because the first thing I would want to do as an app-in leader is kill the PCs of everyone in my clan who posts disparagingly about app-in leaders.

[Kryos]

I for one, who cried tear down that glass ceiling, am so happy to see this.

[KankWhisperer]

I for one, who cried tear down that glass ceiling, am so happy to see this.

I think the glass ceiling term is meant for when someone breaks through it, not spawns on top of it. Since they spawned atop the old glass ceiling it is more of a glass floor with the new glass ceiling above the. Really, a glass sandwich situation.

It's a good thing app-in leaders come with the ability to command NPCs, because the first thing I would want to do as an app-in leader is kill the PCs of everyone in my clan who posts disparagingly about app-in leaders.

Oh GDB posts are an excuse to kill PCs now? Please PM me your character so I can PK it forthwith.

[whitt]

I think the glass ceiling term is meant for when someone breaks through it, not spawns on top of it. Since they spawned atop the old glass ceiling it is more of a glass floor with the new glass ceiling above the. Really, a glass sandwich situation.

I think it would still apply as a glass-ceiling if there is no future ability for IC-sergeants to move up into the position.  Filling the initial one via App seems legit, and perhaps even wise if the current batch of sergeants are totally new to that role.  Sounds like the intent is to keep the position open after the first one finds the Shield Wall.

I also totally get that there are several, still-alive, former Byn sergeants who are probably former Byn sergeants because they wanted to progress to Lieutenant and were told, in no uncertain terms, "No".  For those players/characters this opening would likely be a bit painful.  Especially if those characters were now in a position where coming back to the Byn was unlikely or impossible.

[BadSkeelz]

Staff said earlier that they would have liked to have PCs "Break through" the glass ceiling, but then someone walked off a cliff.

Oh GDB posts are an excuse to kill PCs now? Please PM me your character so I can PK it forthwith.

They just remind me that playing a leader sucks and ungrateful minions are a large part of that. Though watching loyal minions progress and grow and maybe go off and do their own thing in the future is one of the best things about leadership roles.

[Clearsighted]

Leadership is also about politics, networking. A shiny new leader has none of these. Fighting for your life with someone has a way of creating deep meaningful relationships. While all new leaders start out without connections, because Byn is a unique clan with many starting clan members that often leave and end up in other organizations. Coming up through the ranks allows a person to create deep connections with other's like themselves that can't be duplicated and have real and lasting value to a leader.

What an incredibly great point. This is very very true. I've often been shocked by where the people I was a Runner with at one point eventually ended up, and how we still had a bond, even 1-2 RL years later.

[Molten Heart]

Byn Lieutenant != Red Robe

I'm glad to see this position open up. The "new car smell" is a period every single character goes through, sponsored or not.

I think it's a bit silly but I can see both sides of the coin - either way, only way past is through. Just start playing and fuck the naysayers.

How much effective power does the leader of several units of soldiers have?

I'm glad to see this position open. I think it'd be cool to see red robe roles come back too.

[BadSkeelz]

A Byn LT would have between 20 and 30 mercs of varying rank.

An Arm LT would have roughly the same number, probably less (they only command 2 units as opposed to 2-5 for the Byn).

A Red Robe commands thousands of dudes.

[Delirium]

I just hope they don't make that poor Byn Lt use up CGP to buff their combat skills.

Make them a monster, any combat character worth their salt in the Byn should be a goddamn monster by the time they reach LT.

[Xalle]

We won't make them use up CGP.

[Clearsighted]

I just hope they don't make that poor Byn Lt use up CGP to buff their combat skills.

Make them a monster, any combat character worth their salt in the Byn should be a goddamn monster by the time they reach LT.

They could give them 20 CGP worth of 'free' skill buffs, and they still wouldn't be a combat monster. And what makes a combat monster can't even be raised with CGP. OTOH, if you start giving people more than that, it gets weird.

I remember a quote to the effect that one should not be praised for their virtue, until they have had the power to be wicked. By the same token, one can hardly be praised for their great RP and non-twinkery, if they basically are made codedly powerful off the bat. Those that might have been tarred in the past for being 'too focused on skilling up', would likely have been happy to sit in the Gaj and RP all day if they came in with an advanced weapon branched.

Gickers are similar. There is absolutely zero pressure to skill up any magicker. It will happen surprisingly fast, no matter what you do. It's done in secret, where no one can see you, and doesn't require braving the sands (since you have 'nil').

A combat character walks a very very fine line between getting slaughtered in the next RPT and getting a bad reputation, or being slaughtered by characters with bad reputations, who nonetheless, will earn chuckles and applause for wiping you out.

This is all a completely off-tangent and irrelevant sidetrack on my part. The Byn Lieutenant is going to have dozens of challenges, and what coded power they come in with or without, is absolutely the least of it. Whatever they come in with is likely to be insufficient, anyways. Best case scenario, a former sergeant applies, who branched an advanced weapon the traditional way in the past, and then they get to start as a Lieutenant with an advanced weapon already branched. That'd be badass. I'd be annoyed if someone got it without having to experience the soul-killing grind first!