Silk

[Barzalene]

The thing about commoners and silks is that it's part of the culture that we have invented. I think it's something that staff has accepted but a bias that has come from the playerbase. Maybe it doesn't reflect the feelings of every player, but it does reflect how players think the world should work. (Kind of neat, even if you don't like the frowning on silk thing, that we have built a culture with rules that has become pretty sophisticated.)

And it shifts about. I remember when all the magickers were running around in silk dresses. I've seen aides publicly chastised for wearing too much. I've had Kadians dedicate a lot of their time to making non-silk items for the upper class Naki commoner.

Anyway. It kind of needed it's own thread.

[Delusion]

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

[Barzalene]

Maybe staff would be interested in a player collaboration project for middle class clothes.

[Talia]

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

It has been this way for a very long time. All the time that I myself have been playing in and staffing for Allanak, and it was not a new thing when I began playing in Allanak, either. Sometimes it wavers due to players' varying attitudes or misunderstanding about the culture, but the actual culture of Allanak as played and documented is that silk isn't for commoners. To quote from the documentation (which is old):

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles. Another difference in commoner attire is that it tends to be looser, more comfortable, and less hindering, in order to be practical for everyday use.

Compare to Tuluki culture:

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners' clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

[Tetra]

It has been this way for a very long time. All the time that I myself have been playing in and staffing for Allanak, and it was not a new thing when I began playing in Allanak, either. Sometimes it wavers due to players' varying attitudes or misunderstanding about the culture, but the actual culture of Allanak as played and documented is that silk isn't for commoners. To quote from the documentation (which is old):

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles. Another difference in commoner attire is that it tends to be looser, more comfortable, and less hindering, in order to be practical for everyday use.

The way it's phrased honestly sounds open for interpretation.  It sounds more assumptive; that commoners wear inexpensive textiles because they're just that, affordable for a very poor population.  It doesn't really set a hard fast rule, but broadly generalizes what would be realistic for the world(because people shouldn't be able to afford water, let alone silk).

[Clearsighted]

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

It has been this way for a very long time. All the time that I myself have been playing in and staffing for Allanak, and it was not a new thing when I began playing in Allanak, either. Sometimes it wavers due to players' varying attitudes or misunderstanding about the culture, but the actual culture of Allanak as played and documented is that silk isn't for commoners. To quote from the documentation (which is old):

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles. Another difference in commoner attire is that it tends to be looser, more comfortable, and less hindering, in order to be practical for everyday use.

Compare to Tuluki culture:

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners' clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

It's simply silly, because the cheap cost of many silk items (many of them less expensive than the gear a Byn Trooper might acquire) suggests that silk is more of an upper middle class thing. I remember when the silk taboo came about, and I thought it was silly then. Although John posted about it being an organic PC trend, I remember it being staff enforced as well.

Anyways. I think silk needs a bump in cost. I think lengths of silk shouldn't be available to commoners. Because if it is really primarily worn by nobles in the South, it would have to be incredibly rare and expensive, for any kind of market for it to exist, that caters only to the tiny population of real and virtual nobility. Perhaps only Kadius would know how to manufacture it.

So there you go. That's the dilemma. That's why this thread exists. Its current availability, cost and prevalence suggests its an upper middle class luxury (as it was IRL).

[LauraMars]

There's a difference between being able to afford something and that thing being a socially appropriate practice to adopt.  A commoner might be able to afford silk, but it's seen as socially inappropriate to put yourself on the same fashion level as a noble unless you have the social chops to back it up.  And that's something that is pretty self policing in game.

[John]

I think the tabboo comes from commoners appearing to try to rise above their station. If you're wearing all silk then you could be seen as trying to pass yourself off as a noble. If you're wearing a silk scarf though and nothing else about your conduct or appearance is suspect? You might get a raised eyebrow but I doubt anything would happen to you. Trying to buy slaves, hire an aide and do several other things that would normally be associated with nobles? You'll probably face considerable trouble and it won't matter if you're decked out in nothing but sandcloth.

I think this is best left up to players at the time. As a general rule commoners aren't expected to wear silks. But there can always be exceptions. Let players seek out those exceptions and leave it up to players to enforce the social mores.

[LauraMars]

I also wanted to mention that it's not just about nobles feeling offended, it's about the privilege the ruling class has to oppress the weak.  There are plenty of reasons and ways for commoners to wear silk in game right now, but the circumstances must be correct.

A trusted aide could be gifted silk clothing from her noble, or wear silk as part of her uniform.  Nobody is going to harass her.  She's the right hand woman of Lady Oash.  The ruling class want Lady Oash's money and/or favor.  The aide is safe (unless Lady Oash has enemies, in which case the aide has bigger problems than her wardrobe.)

A Kadian merchant could wear silk to advertise his products.  Nobody is going to harass him, because the ruling class wants to buy silk from him, and he has a powerful family who regularly shovels money in the direction of the Templarate to protect their employees.  The merchant is safe.

An independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune and 0 political backing is going to be harassed.  Here is a fellow who spends 99% of his time spam crafting in the Gaj, with no friends but half-elf rangers and whiran scavengers.  He is openly displaying his wealth, and the ruling class wants to oppress the common class and accumulate more wealth.  How did this nobody become so wealthy?  Take his money.

[Clearsighted]

There's a difference between being able to afford something and that thing being a socially appropriate practice to adopt.  A commoner might be able to afford silk, but it's seen as socially inappropriate to put yourself on the same fashion level as a noble unless you have the social chops to back it up.  And that's something that is pretty self policing in game.

Maybe. I find this too arbitrary to be entirely satisfactory, and only a worthy explanation if one were absolutely committed to maintaining the status quo.

Because again, intrinsically, the market for silk would collapse overnight if it were really only available to nobles at its current prices. And lengths of silk are extremely cheap and easy to acquire for even modest entrepreneurial crafters.

People have objected to raising the cost of silk in the past, because it would make it easier for people to make fortunes tailoring it. But realistically, people shouldn't even be able to buy lengths of silk to begin with at less than extraordinary costs or through a special broker (Kadius).

In game, silk is readily and cheaply acquired from any number of dirty, non-Kadian merchants.

Of course the other solution, is just to stop mincing around the taboo and treat silk like what it used to be, and is still treated as price and availability wise: an upper middle class luxury item. Although, something like a 'silk tax' being levied by the templarate, or seeing someone wearing silk as an invitation to shake them down, if they're not noble or protected, should be a common thing.

[valeria]

I'm with Laura.  And I think it's usually handled IC pretty well.  Zalanthas is not a capitalistic democracy.  You don't get to do something just because you can 'afford' to do it.  It's more like not being allowed to wear purple, even if you can afford the expensive dyes needed for a true purple, because purple is the royal color and it's simply not done for someone without royal blood to wear purple.

I think it's just fine.

[Clearsighted]

I'm with Laura.  And I think it's usually handled IC pretty well.  Zalanthas is not a capitalistic democracy.  You don't get to do something just because you can 'afford' to do it.  It's more like not being allowed to wear purple, even if you can afford the expensive dyes needed for a true purple, because purple is the royal color and it's simply not done for someone without royal blood to wear purple.

I think it's just fine.

That's all well and good, but purple dye was vastly more expensive. There's a good reason the Roman Emperor had a monopoly on it. And even so, it was sold from time to time, or the occasional allowance made, in return for a considerable profit.

There's also the fact that the process of making it was so secretive and protected, that even today, we're not entirely sure how it was done. Although, many have researched it and tried. (It required a certain species of sea-urchin or such, if I recall correctly.)

This is also how silk was treated in many ancient or medieval societies. Although, I doubt that silkworms could survive in Zalanthas. Apparently they do, or a Zalanthas alternative exists. In any case, silk was always a royal or imperial monopoly, and a closely guarded state secret. It was a big deal for Byzantine monks to smuggle the silkworm out of China. And it was a big deal when the Norman kingdom of Sicily kidnapped the silk weavers from Byzantium, to set up their own monopoly in Palermo. A silk robe, in the 12th century, would cost about as much, relative to other expenses, to what a sports car might cost us today.

In Zalanthas, a silk robe costs about as much 30 scrab meat shishkabobs.

Blah blah blah, RL history, whatever. I know.

But the current rationale surrounding silk just doesn't make sense, when it's cheaper and more available than even average quality mercenary armor.

Let me reiterate. I have no dog in this fight. I just want the game world to be consistent with expectations. If it's really as rare and taboo as people claim, then up the cost of silk, and restrict the purchase of raw silk to a purely Kadian specialty. I don't think this would be too difficult to do. (Raise the base material value of silk, and then remove the raw silk where it's sold by NPCs).

If silk is supposed to be this cheap and plentiful, then people shouldn't be surprised when people treat it like an upper middle class luxury item. Hell, Ariada must have a warehouse of it.

I guess the status quo is fine, if you like having obscure, nonsensical points of local tradition to ding newbies on. But otherwise, it just doesn't align with the game world's own internal narrative.

[valeria]

I think you mean, you want the game world to be consistent with YOUR expectations.  I'm fine with a game world in which IC prejudices mandate that commoners cannot wear silk, even if they could afford it, except under socially acceptable circumstances.  It makes sense that a society would have social stigmas and taboos, even if those are 'artificially' created.

[Clearsighted]

I think you mean, you want the game world to be consistent with YOUR expectations.  I'm fine with a game world in which IC prejudices mandate that commoners cannot wear silk, even if they could afford it, except under socially acceptable circumstances.  It makes sense that a society would have social stigmas and taboos, even if those are 'artificially' created.

You don't seem to grasp that the market for silk simply wouldn't exist, if those prejudices were real among the VNPC population. There'd be no incentive to produce or sell the silk, because no one but nobles or the especially favored could wear it.

Thus, the supply of silk would go down, and as such things must happen, its cost would inevitably go up.

It's not about me, or my expectations.

There are some things that are unrealistic. Such as overhauling a whole database of items. There are other changes that are realistic, such as reducing the availability of raw silk, and changing silk's base value. Those changes, if they can be tweaked to make the game world more plausible, should be tweaked.

Why are bolts of silk even sold to commoners in the first place if it's so taboo?

But by all means, instead of actually engaging with the question, continue to make it about me.

[Armaddict]

I recall when everyone wore silks.

It -was- out of control, pretty much every aide-type and non-hunting type was decked out silk.  Because it was that manageable.  And nobles liked decking out their aides, because it gave them status, which...you know...is kind of the point.

The problem was when there were certain low class commoners who lived long periods of time, and ended up better dressed than nobles.  Some nobles banded together, started picking those commoners out of the crowd, asking who they thought they were...it became a topic on the GDB, and blam.  Documentation.

As stated in the other thread, I have no qualms with silk being an off limits item.  But that also means silk shouldn't account for 66%(made up figure) of the non-armor item database and 70%(made up figure) of what's on display for sale for any given day.  There are other places, but their items do not rotate. Which makes for a very -bland- look for clothing outside of silk, which is...irritating, for those who don't want to wear armor.

To put it simply...'accessorizing and customizing' is a large part of some people's enjoyment of their character.  Having very very limited options as far as clothes go can be frustrating.  Luckily...I usually wear armor.

[Tetra]

I'm with Laura.  And I think it's usually handled IC pretty well.  Zalanthas is not a capitalistic democracy.  You don't get to do something just because you can 'afford' to do it.  It's more like not being allowed to wear purple, even if you can afford the expensive dyes needed for a true purple, because purple is the royal color and it's simply not done for someone without royal blood to wear purple.

I think it's just fine.

There's a shop in the Bazaar that sells semi-nondescript basic items of silk(and other) fabric?    I find it hard to imagine a noble ever going out of their way to shop there, or wear something as plain-jane as the garments created from that stall.  So it begs the question, why?

Silk is so blatantly available and yet nobody is wearing it.  While I don't think commoners should be dripping in silk, it certainly doesn't make sense that a extreme minority is wearing it -- but somehow its being sold everywhere virtually.  It doesn't make actual sense, is what bothers me.


tldr; It is less about nobles vs commoners having the right to wear silk, but that silk itself proliferates the game market to such an extent that it disconnects with the supposed sumptuary laws.

I also wanted to mention that it's not just about nobles feeling offended, it's about the privilege the ruling class has to oppress the weak.  There are plenty of reasons and ways for commoners to wear silk in game right now, but the circumstances must be correct.

A trusted aide could be gifted silk clothing from her noble, or wear silk as part of her uniform.  Nobody is going to harass her.  She's the right hand woman of Lady Oash.  The ruling class want Lady Oash's money and/or favor.  The aide is safe (unless Lady Oash has enemies, in which case the aide has bigger problems than her wardrobe.)

A Kadian merchant could wear silk to advertise his products.  Nobody is going to harass him, because the ruling class wants to buy silk from him, and he has a powerful family who regularly shovels money in the direction of the Templarate to protect their employees.  The merchant is safe.

An independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune and 0 political backing is going to be harassed.  Here is a fellow who spends 99% of his time spam crafting in the Gaj, with no friends but half-elf rangers and whiran scavengers.  He is openly displaying his wealth, and the ruling class wants to oppress the common class and accumulate more wealth.  How did this nobody become so wealthy?  Take his money.

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

[Barzalene]

 But that also means silk shouldn't account for 66%(made up figure) of the non-armor item database and 70%(made up figure) of what's on display for sale for any given day.  There are other places, but their items do not rotate. Which makes for a very -bland- look for clothing outside of silk, which is...irritating, for those who don't want to wear armor.

To put it simply...'accessorizing and customizing' is a large part of some people's enjoyment of their character.  Having very very limited options as far as clothes go can be frustrating.  Luckily...I usually wear armor.

I agree with this. I think it bears thought.

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

And I agree with this.

[LauraMars]

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

Oh, I agree with this as well.  My image of the salt baron (or the ivory needle baron to be trendy) is that he was wearing a full silk outfit but you're right, I didn't really specify.

As for bolts of silk being for sale to commoners...I think it is probably ok for commoners to craft with silk?  I mean a noble isn't going to be sewing silk garments for themself that is for sure.

[Clearsighted]

As for bolts of silk being for sale to commoners...I think it is probably ok for commoners to craft with silk?  I mean a noble isn't going to be sewing silk garments for themselves that is for sure.

Shouldn't it be more of a specialized Kadian thing, given the very tiny market? I don't think there would realistically be room for non-GMH competition.

[Barzalene]

I think it has to not be sold by Kadius. They specialize in finished goods, not raw products. If it was up to Kadius, only they would craft silk. They have no incentive to sell it.

[Tetra]

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

Oh, I agree with this as well.  My image of the salt baron (or the ivory needle baron to be trendy) is that he was wearing a full silk outfit but you're right, I didn't really specify.

As for bolts of silk being for sale to commoners...I think it is probably ok for commoners to craft with silk?  I mean a noble isn't going to be sewing silk garments for themselves that is for sure.

Whole silk outfit, definitely not.  But I would further play devil's advocate and say such an individual shouldn't be waltzing around in silk, if they amass their wealth by foraging for salt in the wilderness(it's not a very practical fabric to wear for physical labor).

Perhaps my views on this subject would be different if silk were not sold so readily available everywhere, and there were 60% more linen/cotton items for sale.

If staff started a project, I'm literally willing to design 50 world-appropriate garments from scratch as volunteer work, if they were hypothetically loaded into the game.


Edit: To summarize, I think this "no silk for commoners" should be acknowledged more as a social faux pas with possible consequences, rather than an actual 'law'.

[Barzalene]

I'd commit to a dozen.
I think it would be cool to start with a list of what people would like in an upscale non-silk item.

[Clearsighted]

I think it has to not be sold by Kadius. They specialize in finished goods, not raw products. If it was up to Kadius, only they would craft silk. They have no incentive to sell it.

Right. I don't think anyone but Kadius should have access to raw silk. And I agree, Kadius probably wouldn't sell it. It just doesn't seem plausible for any dirty commoner with a few small in their pocket, to have access to bolts of unworked silk. Especially when they primarily only sell it to other commoners, or back to Kadius.

It wouldn't be possible to raise the cost of silk items, (so that, say, it's more expensive than a set of leather studded pants), without restricting commoner access to bolts of silk.

[Talia]

Please don't get all het up about building a lot of non-silk items right now. Especially don't just send stuff in that you want staff to build. Staff are working on other stuff. If someone wants to pick this up as a project, they will. Until the point where some staffer says "send me items," please hold off.

[Barzalene]

Please don't get all het up about building a lot of non-silk items right now. Especially don't just send stuff in that you want staff to build. Staff are working on other stuff. If someone wants to pick this up as a project, they will. Until the point where some staffer says "send me items," please hold off.

Noted.

[valeria]

I think you mean, you want the game world to be consistent with YOUR expectations.  I'm fine with a game world in which IC prejudices mandate that commoners cannot wear silk, even if they could afford it, except under socially acceptable circumstances.  It makes sense that a society would have social stigmas and taboos, even if those are 'artificially' created.

You don't seem to grasp that the market for silk simply wouldn't exist, if those prejudices were real among the VNPC population. There'd be no incentive to produce or sell the silk, because no one but nobles or the especially favored could wear it.

There are plenty of nobles and exceptionally favored people in Allanak.  The fact that nobles and the especially favored wear it is the incentive to produce and sell silk.  You're catering to the upper class, and can expect that they will look on you favorably.  Furthermore...

Thus, the supply of silk would go down, and as such things must happen, its cost would inevitably go up.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that silk is cheap.  The representation of the virtual world is that 250 sid/month is a vast sum of money for the vast majority of people.  Is it to PCs?  No, because they don't really represent the virtual world... or we'd have a lot more beggars, slaves, and people dying of starvation.  We don't have representation of people that make 10-50 obsidian an month and would feel lucky to land a 250/sid a month job where they could afford one silk dress if they did nothing else with a year+ in wages, including forsaking purchasing food and water, solely to buy one article of silk.  The PC population does not reflect the game world.

There are some things that are unrealistic. Such as overhauling a whole database of items. There are other changes that are realistic, such as reducing the availability of raw silk, and changing silk's base value. Those changes, if they can be tweaked to make the game world more plausible, should be tweaked.

Of course some things are unrealistic.  It's a game.  It's not a real life simulator.  But in substance, I simply disagree with you that the problem is the price of silk.  I think the problem, if there is one, is the availability of wealth PC commoners.  So I disagree that changing the price of silk would fix any problem.

Why are bolts of silk even sold to commoners in the first place if it's so taboo?

It isn't taboo for commoners to touch silk, or to work with silk, it's only a social taboo for for them to wear it excessively when they don't have the social backing or ranking to do so.

But by all means, instead of actually engaging with the question, continue to make it about me.

It's not about you, it's about your style of argument, which is largely based on assumptions that I disagree with.  Your argument seems to be "If silk's cheap and available people should be able to treat it however they want."  Well, no.  That's against the game world documentation.

I feel like you're trying to turn this into the economy thread again, when (a) the PC population is not representative of the virtual economy, and (b) taboos and cultural mores sometimes clash with purely economic principles.  I simply think you're not willing to recognize or accept that, and are to a large extent ignoring the differences between the world that we see that is coded and virtual world.  But by all means, continue with your arguments from repetition and begging the question.  I'll still think you are wrong.

I don't think the solution to any silk-over-representation problem is to make silks more expensive.  I think a better solution is to to have more variety on the cheap end of clothing with more common materials.

[Barzalene]

Maybe this should be in the form of a request or something, but I had a thought that perhaps (and this might have been done already) as more commoner stuff is put into the game (I'm sure it's being mastercrafted pretty regularly) maybe some of those items should be making into the shopkeepers' inventories and sold in the shops. Maybe there should also be a faster turn around on those rotations. (I think they're automated, so it's not a huge endeavor.)

ps - that's a suggestion. Not a demand. Don't yell at me.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

GMH members could always stock their own shop if they wanted to, using 'offer silk #0' to their affiliated shop keeper. While staff could load those things up, using my method gives players something to do, and cleans the workshop out a bit. Styles could be further defined by PCs using this same method.

[Talia]

Maybe this should be in the form of a request or something, but I had a thought that perhaps (and this might have been done already) as more commoner stuff is put into the game (I'm sure it's being mastercrafted pretty regularly) maybe some of those items should be making into the shopkeepers' inventories and sold in the shops. Maybe there should also be a faster turn around on those rotations. (I think they're automated, so it's not a huge endeavor.)

ps - that's a suggestion. Not a demand. Don't yell at me.

I'm not going to yell at you but I will say that basically no-one is mastercrafting non-silk, non-armor wearables. Like...ever. No one "wastes" a mastercraft on those things. And by and large, mastercrafted stuff happens within the GMHs, usually on commission for a particular PC with money and power. So they are often unique things, and if not unique then not intended for sale to the public.

GMH members could always stock their own shop if they wanted to, using 'offer silk #0' to their affiliated shop keeper. While staff could load those things up, using my method gives players something to do, and cleans the workshop out a bit. Styles could be further defined by PCs using this same method.

This is a good idea!

[Clearsighted]

I don't think the solution to any silk-over-representation problem is to make silks more expensive.  I think a better solution is to to have more variety on the cheap end of clothing with more common materials.

Fair enough. I still think it's weird that the average veteran Byn trooper is wearing more sid on them than the average noble, but you made a reasonable case.

I still think silk, if it's as important as documentation suggests, would be realized more plausibly as a Kadian monopoly. And I do still think it's weird that a few raptor steaks can be bought for the same price as a silk shirt.

[Barzalene]

Maybe this should be in the form of a request or something, but I had a thought that perhaps (and this might have been done already) as more commoner stuff is put into the game (I'm sure it's being mastercrafted pretty regularly) maybe some of those items should be making into the shopkeepers' inventories and sold in the shops. Maybe there should also be a faster turn around on those rotations. (I think they're automated, so it's not a huge endeavor.)

ps - that's a suggestion. Not a demand. Don't yell at me.

I'm not going to yell at you but I will say that basically no-one is mastercrafting non-silk, non-armor wearables. Like...ever. No one "wastes" a mastercraft on those things. And by and large, mastercrafted stuff happens within the GMHs, usually on commission for a particular PC with money and power. So they are often unique things, and if not unique then not intended for sale to the public.

GMH members could always stock their own shop if they wanted to, using 'offer silk #0' to their affiliated shop keeper. While staff could load those things up, using my method gives players something to do, and cleans the workshop out a bit. Styles could be further defined by PCs using this same method.

This is a good idea!

My last merchant did every chance they got. At least four. And others working with her did as well. I figured that was more the norm than it is, I guess.

Venomz' is a good idea!

[Bast]

Well I mean realistically HALF the outfits on arm made in 'silk' would never be made in silk..You can not sew a tight anything in silk it would run at the seams . I sew, I'm super into cosplay I know this first hand from making the mistake of trying to make a corset in silk. Realistically we would have dozens of blends of silk, linen and cottons to play with. Embroidered prints and weaves ect.. I would love to see a few dozen other types of fabric offer offered. Or just 'a bolt of fabric' as an option to buy. Seriously though I always felt if your a noble and threatened by something some commoner is wear you just look really pathetic and piety. If a unclanned commoner is running around in silks they are likely going to be stained and ruined (consider them a bad rper  -I- do) and that might be a good time for a Templar to decide to fine them 'just because' obviously they have cash as they are running around in silks. Its just always seemed like a moronic thing to get fussy over. I don't even like putting the type of fabric in the desc of an object. Do you know what half the clothing you are wearing is made of unless you look at the tag? Likely not..

[John]

silk shouldn't account for 66%(made up figure) of the non-armor item database

Complaining about silk making up X percentage of items in the database is missing the point. Unless you want the staff to arbitrarily remove X% of silk items from the game, what you're really arguing for is there to be more variety for non-silk wearers. And I agree. It can be difficult to be a male character whose wanting to follow the latest trends because so many of the items are tailored for women. I'd love it if there were more variety for males and commoners in general, and staff have indicated it's something they'd like to fix. But I as mentioned right now priorities are on other projects.

[Tiktak]

Well I mean realistically HALF the outfits on arm made in 'silk' would never be made in silk..You can not sew a tight anything in silk it would run at the seams . I sew, I'm super into cosplay I know this first hand from making the mistake of trying to make a corset in silk. Realistically we would have dozens of blends of silk, linen and cottons to play with. Embroidered prints and weaves ect.. I would love to see a few dozen other types of fabric offer offered. Or just 'a bolt of fabric' as an option to buy. Seriously though I always felt if your a noble and threatened by something some commoner is wear you just look really pathetic and piety. If a unclanned commoner is running around in silks they are likely going to be stained and ruined (consider them a bad rper  -I- do) and that might be a good time for a Templar to decide to fine them 'just because' obviously they have cash as they are running around in silks. Its just always seemed like a moronic thing to get fussy over. I don't even like putting the type of fabric in the desc of an object. Do you know what half the clothing you are wearing is made of unless you look at the tag? Likely not..

Zalanthan silk is not the same as Real World silk. It comes from a wholly different source and is processed differently.

[Saellyn]

It comes from magic.

Like everything does.

[John]

Once upon a time Kadius would get it's wares changed on a (roughly) IG monthly basis to reflect the latest trends. Does this still happen?

[MeTekillot]

yea

[solera]

It now comes from spiders.

[bardlyone]

I'm with Clearsighted on this. If people shouldn't be wearing silk who aren't nobility or Kadians, they sure as shit shouldn't be able to buy and sew it all day long for 100 coins a length and a 12 coin pack of dye if you're feeling up for variety. Shit, that's 3 skins of water, or 2 scrab steaks. That is the opposite of expensive in in game survivability as a pc prices. Not only that, but it's NOT against documentation when the documentation doesn't say that it's forbidden but instead implies a grey area and gets explicit about it being forbidden in.... where?

My ideal solution would be to make noble signet rings visible over gloves. Boom, confusion fixed, if that was ever an actual problem.

Magickers and various undesirables, sure, shouldn't be wearing it. But you know they sell raggedy silk boots in the bazaar no one gives a shit if you wear for like 14 coins. Kinda shoots that inix in the foot imo.

[wizturbo]

Here's my two sids on the matter.    A non-noble who publicly wears more than a few traces of silk in Allanak is signalling that they're valued by the Nobility or the Templarate, and thus of a higher social status than most commoners.   Dressing in silks isn't the problem, but pretending to be of a higher social status than you are is a problem.  Commoners can buy and trade in silks, because there's no problem with them wearing silks in private, and no problem in them selling the goods to those who are permitted to wear them.  But, if they strut around in public dressed that way without good cause, they're essentially committing social fraud.

In my opinion, these are the non-nobles who are of a high enough social status to warrant wearing silks:

1.  Important commoners, to a single Highborn person.   Concubines, favorite slaves, or highly trusted Aides and Advisors.   

2.  Commoners who are important to entire Noble Houses or the Templarate, rather than a single person.   High ranking servants of the nobility or the Templarate, or any servant of VERY important people (Senior nobility, Red robes, etc.)

3.  Important family members of a Merchant House, or Kadian Merchants who deal in silks.  Many Merchant Houses still probably wouldn't wear silk, except on special occasions, because they don't deal in the staff. 

[ibusoe]

The thing about commoners and silks is that it's part of the culture that we have invented. I think it's something that staff has accepted but a bias that has come from the playerbase. Maybe it doesn't reflect the feelings of every player, but it does reflect how players think the world should work. (Kind of neat, even if you don't like the frowning on silk thing, that we have built a culture with rules that has become pretty sophisticated.)

And it shifts about. I remember when all the magickers were running around in silk dresses. I've seen aides publicly chastised for wearing too much. I've had Kadians dedicate a lot of their time to making non-silk items for the upper class Naki commoner.

Anyway. It kind of needed it's own thread.

I thank you for splitting this out, Barz and agree with you that it needed to be.  The funny thing is that I somewhat comically have the exact opposite impression that you do.  I could pretty much take what you said and replace every occurrence of "Commoner's shouldn't wear silk because" with "Commoners should wear silk because." 

I've spent a couple of hours meditating on this and I'm coming to the opinion that when two people disagree about a policy decision for the exact same reasons, it's probably simply a matter of personal preference that divides them.

My feeling is that you would prefer for commoners not to wear silk simply because you want to emphasize the differences in social stratum between the nobility and the commoners.  This is not an unreasonable way to feel.  My preference is to emphasize avenues for social mobility for people who are socially mobile.  Our preferences aren't mutually exclusive, unfortunately both of us can't have our feelings about silk expressed in the game at the same time.

What should become of the situation?  Either the status quot could be preserved, one side could get marginalized, or we could all reach a compromise.  I personally prefer compromises.

I'm going to suggest a compromise which I believe is workable, although it may not be the best compromise.  Possibly someone could come up with a better compromise, in fact I hope someone will.  Feel free to borrow or modify my idea if it seems helpful.

My recommendations are two-fold. 

First, I think the staff should arrange a Templar-sponsored crack down on silk in the game.  This shouldn't happen immediately.  People should be given a heads up.  There are few reasons that most of the victims of this crack-down wouldn't be NPC.  But the crack down should be enough to create the point to players, especially new players, that walking around in silk all the time isn't the new normal.  The crack down *should* be politically motivated, and on the surface shouldn't have anything to do with silk.  Commoners should feel some reservations about publicly wearing silk all of the time.

My second recommendation, and probably the more useful one, is that some of the docs should be modified to include the phrase:

...and a minority of the nobility has very strong cultural opinions about the wearing of silk, to the point that they will quietly feel that it is incorrect for commoners to wear silk under any circumstances.

And this is another thing that, if implemented, players should implement subtly.  Should your Fale Noble walk down the street, arresting people that wear silk?  In my opinion, no.  But imagine if your Fale Noble were interviewing a commoner who was a candidate for a lucrative contract.  Perhaps your opinion of this fellow were on the fence?  Of course you would choose to evaluate people on how they dress.  That's how the real world works as well.

[Desertman]

Silk is fine in the world. The way it is handled is fine. This is a non-issue in every way imaginable.

That's all I have for this thread.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

Here's my two sids on the matter.    A non-noble who publicly wears more than a few traces of silk in Allanak is signalling that they're valued by the Nobility or the Templarate, and thus of a higher social status than most commoners.   Dressing in silks isn't the problem, but pretending to be of a higher social status than you are is a problem.  Commoners can buy and trade in silks, because there's no problem with them wearing silks in private, and no problem in them selling the goods to those who are permitted to wear them.  But, if they strut around in public dressed that way without good cause, they're essentially committing social fraud.

In my opinion, these are the non-nobles who are of a high enough social status to warrant wearing silks:

1.  Important commoners, to a single Highborn person.   Concubines, favorite slaves, or highly trusted Aides and Advisors.   

2.  Commoners who are important to entire Noble Houses or the Templarate, rather than a single person.   High ranking servants of the nobility or the Templarate, or any servant of VERY important people (Senior nobility, Red robes, etc.)

3.  Important family members of a Merchant House, or Kadian Merchants who deal in silks.  Many Merchant Houses still probably wouldn't wear silk, except on special occasions, because they don't deal in the staff. 

+1

I don't personally see a problem with the way silk is sold in game at current. The way I've always seen it, is that if you're a commoner, and you want to wear silks, then you should reasonably expect that you might ruffle the feathers of someone who is, by blood, better than you.

I don't believe there to be any concrete pattern for it. One day, Lord Bipolar Borsail might be fine with you skipping along in your new silk dress. But the next day, he might decide that you think you're on his level by wearing such expensive and special fineries. As most things when it comes to the common dealing with the noble/templarate, you're taking your life/health/eyesight into your hands when you even choose to be in their line of sight.

Silk could make up 99% of the clothing market in Allanak, and the nobility/templarate could still decide they don't want any of the common blood wearing it, unless they deem it okay on a case-by-case basis. Allanak isn't a place in which anyone has any rights whatsoever to do anything, if someone of better blood says you can't.

When comparing it to armors as well - soldiers/hunters in Zalanthas are a part of a very risky, and dangerous profession, but also one in which some people simply -have- to do it to survive. The Houses/merchants who make and sell armor? They absolutely realize this, and CAN gouge people on the price of their wares, because they know people are going to pay to ensure they don't became scrablunch. Even with the armor the price of silks, it'd be no problem for a noble to buy a bunch of it - but it isn't something they outright -need-. (And most nobles wouldn't be caught dead wearing armor - that awkward, uncomfortable working person's stuff)

tldr; I think the silk situation is fine as is, wear it at your character's own risk.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

More middle class clothing would be great though, with cotton being the northern common garb, and sandcloth the southern common garb, and linen the upper commoner wear in both regions. Silk, in mass, is for nobles, and nobles' favored.

[Talia]

More middle class clothing would be great though, with cotton being the northern common garb, and sandcloth the southern common garb, and linen the upper commoner wear in both regions. Silk, in mass, is for nobles, and nobles' favored.

Did you know that sandcloth is not actually a type of cloth itself? Check "help sandcloth." Mind blown, right?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I didn't,  actually. But then the question arises, what fabric actually originates in the South? Because ... I can't think of one. Sandcloth is the closest, woven from a mish-mash of fibers.

[Talia]

I didn't,  actually. But then the question arises, what fabric actually originates in the South? Because ... I can't think of one. Sandcloth is the closest, woven from a mish-mash of fibers.

Southern cloth is made of 100% pure handwavium.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, cotton isn't something Southerners typically wear, and sandcloth isn't something Northerners typically wear, day to day, so hush! Sandcloth is Southern!

[Jihelu]

Well, cotton isn't something Southerners typically wear, and sandcloth isn't something Northerners typically wear, day to day, so hush! Sandcloth is Southern!

Are you lying to me?
Whenever Tuluk-sama was still alive I saw a lot of Sandcloth.

[Bast]

I thought Silk in Arm came from Pymlithe blossoms...there are several items and descs around the game that say something to effect of 'woven from the purest Pymlithe silk'.

[Bast]

Here's my two sids on the matter.    A non-noble who publicly wears more than a few traces of silk in Allanak is signalling that they're valued by the Nobility or the Templarate, and thus of a higher social status than most commoners.   Dressing in silks isn't the problem, but pretending to be of a higher social status than you are is a problem.  Commoners can buy and trade in silks, because there's no problem with them wearing silks in private, and no problem in them selling the goods to those who are permitted to wear them.  But, if they strut around in public dressed that way without good cause, they're essentially committing social fraud.

In my opinion, these are the non-nobles who are of a high enough social status to warrant wearing silks:

1.  Important commoners, to a single Highborn person.   Concubines, favorite slaves, or highly trusted Aides and Advisors.   

2.  Commoners who are important to entire Noble Houses or the Templarate, rather than a single person.   High ranking servants of the nobility or the Templarate, or any servant of VERY important people (Senior nobility, Red robes, etc.)

3.  Important family members of a Merchant House, or Kadian Merchants who deal in silks.  Many Merchant Houses still probably wouldn't wear silk, except on special occasions, because they don't deal in the staff. 

Agreed though I don't think Kaidan Merchant's who aren't family members should be wearing more than Silk trim. Any one over the position of Aide in the Social Hierarchy should be okay with bits of mixed silk. By the way this goes for jewelry are well. Nothing like seeing a hunter with pair of sapphire and ivory earrings.

If a noble wants to display their personal wealth by dressing their servants in silks that is completely up to them. Its a status thing and Aides are like purses, walking sticks,or any other fashion accessory. Commoners of no or low social status shouldn't be wearing it at all. I think impersonating a Noble seems like a taxable fine for the Templarate.

Really thought people make way too much of a fuss over this though. Dress your station in like and you should be fine.

[bartenderer]

I feel like this

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

and this...

I'm not going to yell at you but I will say that basically no-one is mastercrafting non-silk, non-armor wearables. Like...ever. No one "wastes" a mastercraft on those things. And by and large, mastercrafted stuff happens within the GMHs, usually on commission for a particular PC with money and power. So they are often unique things, and if not unique then not intended for sale to the public.

are the two larger issues, versus the should commoners be allowed to wear silks. The way I see it, the majority of our PC's, from the moment we finish char gen, are more than your average commoner. I remember a post somewhere where this was mentioned once. That all of are PC's are your typical VNPC until we 'posess' them. And just through our normal play, even if you do not end up a 50 day warrior or a master merchant, we are all 'more than' your typical VNPC commoner. I mean, according to the docs water and food are commodities that are fought over. Your typical 0 day warrior has to worry about water and food for maybe a handful of hours before they have more than enough coin for them. The same way pretty much any PC ends up with more than enough coin to completely cover their bodies in silk after maybe just a couple days played.

Should they? No, probably not, not unless they want to be harassed. Can they? By the code and NPC merchants, fuck yeah they can! But why would they want to? Because, the silk clothes in the game are typically just more fun than the lesser cloths, and this is usually because they were lovingly desc'ed by another PC at some point.

Maybe if there was a big open call for player described clothes, made of lesser materials, not all uniquely shiny and fancy, that were then loaded into the typical NPC merchant shop lists, there would be more of a draw to buy and dress in them. Or, perhaps if there was an option to submit a commoner quality, or economy style mastercraft once a week, vice the one super fancy super unique eye grabbing mastercraft you are allowed to put in once a month. All of the commoner quality mastercrafts would be non-unique, non-GMH, and completely repeatable by a non merchant guild class with a tailor subguild. I don't know, this is reinventing the wheel, which never usually happens. Just food for thought.

The thing is, combat characters can buy pretty much any armor they can afford to wear. There is no fallout for someone decked out in kryl or silt horror. There is no social prejudice. It is easy being a combat character. But for the non-combat characters outfits, a wardrobe, costume changes - these are, for me at least, a big part of the fun!

Who knows. I've definitely seen more options for non-silks since I've gotten back from sea (honestly there is a -lot- of new shit I'm trying to get used to since my deployment) So maybe the whole point I've made is outdated.

TL;DR
PC's make more money quicker than your average commoner vnpc. Silks are usually more detailed, and not too expensive. Create incentive for people to craft non-silk clothes by doing a open call for described economy clothes or create a system where you can submit a mastercraft every week for 'commoner' class clothes (non-unique, non-gmh, craftable by anyone subguild tailor) vice once a month.

[Tiktak]

I thought Silk in Arm came from Pymlithe blossoms...there are several items and descs around the game that say something to effect of 'woven from the purest Pymlithe silk'.

Yes. You are correct.

[Talia]

There are actually two forms of silk on Zalanthas. One is harvested from
the cocoons of caterpillars indigenous to the Grey Forest, while the other,
a heavier, glossier thread, is spun from pymlithe blossoms. While not as
durable as other fabrics, silk is prized for its rarity, its luster, and
the brightness of its color.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think silk needs to be more heavily/artificially regulated.  There's like... zero bad outcomes to any combination of related choices involved.

If commoners don't wear silk we have gritty downtrodden Zalanthas.
If commoners wear silk and no nobles take offense we have a lovely, vibrant fashion scene.
If commoners wear silk and nobles do take offense we have a cutthroat social balancing act of trying to be well-dressed but not offensively so.

I'm fine with this "battleground" shifting based on the current crop of players.  You all like it when players affect the game, right?  Think of this as an economy microcosm that's completely player-controlled.

[Suhuy]

Ostracizing commoners for the wearing of silk started as a means of differentiating the upper from the lower class. I understand the motive, because it's aimed at supporting thematic elements of the game world, but it's a short-sighted idea because it comes more from a coded, diku viewpoint rather than one of immersion. The code may inform you of the fabric, but is your character really going to notice this straight away (or at all)? Try watching some Japanese or Chinese period dramas. The nobles and the servants are all decked out in the most sumptuous fabrics imaginable. In fact it's not much different in most films with a Medieval setting either. The difference is not in the fabrics worn, but how ostentatious the nobility tend to be, from their jewels, to their headwear, to the length of their gowns, and even the number of bodyguards in their company. I would feel like the pettiest player imaginable if I started counting the number of silk items on a PC's equipment list to determine if they should be bullied or not. But with the ability to produce master crafted items, the power is in the players' hands if they wish to implement new lines of fashion and new (less diku) means of differentiating commoner from noble. Let the appearance be the emphasis, not the fabric.

[BadSkeelz]

I would write kudos to a Templar who knocked out commoners in the street, stole all their silk, and junked it in front of them when they woke up. Then tossed a shit-smeared sandcloth robe down on their nakedness. "Learn your place, citizen."

Plus it'd help the economy by stimulating more clothes buying.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't think silk needs to be more heavily/artificially regulated.  There's like... zero bad outcomes to any combination of related choices involved.

If commoners don't wear silk we have gritty downtrodden Zalanthas.
If commoners wear silk and no nobles take offense we have a lovely, vibrant fashion scene.
If commoners wear silk and nobles do take offense we have a cutthroat social balancing act of trying to be well-dressed but not offensively so.

I'm fine with this "battleground" shifting based on the current crop of players.  You all like it when players affect the game, right?  Think of this as an economy microcosm that's completely player-controlled.

Best post I've seen in this thread.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm actually fine with this.

[Clearsighted]

I don't think silk needs to be more heavily/artificially regulated.  There's like... zero bad outcomes to any combination of related choices involved.

If commoners don't wear silk we have gritty downtrodden Zalanthas.
If commoners wear silk and no nobles take offense we have a lovely, vibrant fashion scene.
If commoners wear silk and nobles do take offense we have a cutthroat social balancing act of trying to be well-dressed but not offensively so.

I'm fine with this "battleground" shifting based on the current crop of players.  You all like it when players affect the game, right?  Think of this as an economy microcosm that's completely player-controlled.

If people are able to accept that these are all potentially rational IC situations, then yes. That's great, and there's no problem with the current setup. If only one is accepted, and the other two are OOCly condemned (despite say, cheap silk being freely available for about the cost of a raptor steak), then there gets to be a certain dissonance.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with that too, Sighted.

I'd also be fine with lowered profit for indie crafters, raised value for merchants for silks. This is adjusted by the buy/sell value of the merchant. And of course, the PC player base.

[Majikal]

But the current rationale surrounding silk just doesn't make sense, when it's cheaper and more available than even average quality mercenary armor.

I just want the game world to be consistent with expectations. If it's really as rare and taboo as people claim, then up the cost of silk, and restrict the purchase of raw silk to a purely Kadian specialty. I don't think this would be too difficult to do. (Raise the base material value of silk, and then remove the raw silk where it's sold by NPCs).

If silk is supposed to be this cheap and plentiful, then people shouldn't be surprised when people treat it like an upper middle class luxury item. Hell, Ariada must have a warehouse of it.

I guess the status quo is fine, if you like having obscure, nonsensical points of local tradition to ding newbies on. But otherwise, it just doesn't align with the game world's own internal narrative.

Pretty much sums up my view on it, while I've always thrown a weird look at commoners without noble affiliations or anything rocking out in their silk tailored outfits, the coded game world reflects an easy and fairly affordable access to silk which would suggest we're treating it incorrectly in game. Mebbe it's part of the super-sekrit black silk braies club messing up everything.