Silk

[Bast]

Here's my two sids on the matter.    A non-noble who publicly wears more than a few traces of silk in Allanak is signalling that they're valued by the Nobility or the Templarate, and thus of a higher social status than most commoners.   Dressing in silks isn't the problem, but pretending to be of a higher social status than you are is a problem.  Commoners can buy and trade in silks, because there's no problem with them wearing silks in private, and no problem in them selling the goods to those who are permitted to wear them.  But, if they strut around in public dressed that way without good cause, they're essentially committing social fraud.

In my opinion, these are the non-nobles who are of a high enough social status to warrant wearing silks:

1.  Important commoners, to a single Highborn person.   Concubines, favorite slaves, or highly trusted Aides and Advisors.   

2.  Commoners who are important to entire Noble Houses or the Templarate, rather than a single person.   High ranking servants of the nobility or the Templarate, or any servant of VERY important people (Senior nobility, Red robes, etc.)

3.  Important family members of a Merchant House, or Kadian Merchants who deal in silks.  Many Merchant Houses still probably wouldn't wear silk, except on special occasions, because they don't deal in the staff. 

Agreed though I don't think Kaidan Merchant's who aren't family members should be wearing more than Silk trim. Any one over the position of Aide in the Social Hierarchy should be okay with bits of mixed silk. By the way this goes for jewelry are well. Nothing like seeing a hunter with pair of sapphire and ivory earrings.

If a noble wants to display their personal wealth by dressing their servants in silks that is completely up to them. Its a status thing and Aides are like purses, walking sticks,or any other fashion accessory. Commoners of no or low social status shouldn't be wearing it at all. I think impersonating a Noble seems like a taxable fine for the Templarate.

Really thought people make way too much of a fuss over this though. Dress your station in like and you should be fine.

[bartenderer]

I feel like this

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

and this...

I'm not going to yell at you but I will say that basically no-one is mastercrafting non-silk, non-armor wearables. Like...ever. No one "wastes" a mastercraft on those things. And by and large, mastercrafted stuff happens within the GMHs, usually on commission for a particular PC with money and power. So they are often unique things, and if not unique then not intended for sale to the public.

are the two larger issues, versus the should commoners be allowed to wear silks. The way I see it, the majority of our PC's, from the moment we finish char gen, are more than your average commoner. I remember a post somewhere where this was mentioned once. That all of are PC's are your typical VNPC until we 'posess' them. And just through our normal play, even if you do not end up a 50 day warrior or a master merchant, we are all 'more than' your typical VNPC commoner. I mean, according to the docs water and food are commodities that are fought over. Your typical 0 day warrior has to worry about water and food for maybe a handful of hours before they have more than enough coin for them. The same way pretty much any PC ends up with more than enough coin to completely cover their bodies in silk after maybe just a couple days played.

Should they? No, probably not, not unless they want to be harassed. Can they? By the code and NPC merchants, fuck yeah they can! But why would they want to? Because, the silk clothes in the game are typically just more fun than the lesser cloths, and this is usually because they were lovingly desc'ed by another PC at some point.

Maybe if there was a big open call for player described clothes, made of lesser materials, not all uniquely shiny and fancy, that were then loaded into the typical NPC merchant shop lists, there would be more of a draw to buy and dress in them. Or, perhaps if there was an option to submit a commoner quality, or economy style mastercraft once a week, vice the one super fancy super unique eye grabbing mastercraft you are allowed to put in once a month. All of the commoner quality mastercrafts would be non-unique, non-GMH, and completely repeatable by a non merchant guild class with a tailor subguild. I don't know, this is reinventing the wheel, which never usually happens. Just food for thought.

The thing is, combat characters can buy pretty much any armor they can afford to wear. There is no fallout for someone decked out in kryl or silt horror. There is no social prejudice. It is easy being a combat character. But for the non-combat characters outfits, a wardrobe, costume changes - these are, for me at least, a big part of the fun!

Who knows. I've definitely seen more options for non-silks since I've gotten back from sea (honestly there is a -lot- of new shit I'm trying to get used to since my deployment) So maybe the whole point I've made is outdated.

TL;DR
PC's make more money quicker than your average commoner vnpc. Silks are usually more detailed, and not too expensive. Create incentive for people to craft non-silk clothes by doing a open call for described economy clothes or create a system where you can submit a mastercraft every week for 'commoner' class clothes (non-unique, non-gmh, craftable by anyone subguild tailor) vice once a month.

[Tiktak]

I thought Silk in Arm came from Pymlithe blossoms...there are several items and descs around the game that say something to effect of 'woven from the purest Pymlithe silk'.

Yes. You are correct.

[Talia]

There are actually two forms of silk on Zalanthas. One is harvested from
the cocoons of caterpillars indigenous to the Grey Forest, while the other,
a heavier, glossier thread, is spun from pymlithe blossoms. While not as
durable as other fabrics, silk is prized for its rarity, its luster, and
the brightness of its color.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think silk needs to be more heavily/artificially regulated.  There's like... zero bad outcomes to any combination of related choices involved.

If commoners don't wear silk we have gritty downtrodden Zalanthas.
If commoners wear silk and no nobles take offense we have a lovely, vibrant fashion scene.
If commoners wear silk and nobles do take offense we have a cutthroat social balancing act of trying to be well-dressed but not offensively so.

I'm fine with this "battleground" shifting based on the current crop of players.  You all like it when players affect the game, right?  Think of this as an economy microcosm that's completely player-controlled.

[Suhuy]

Ostracizing commoners for the wearing of silk started as a means of differentiating the upper from the lower class. I understand the motive, because it's aimed at supporting thematic elements of the game world, but it's a short-sighted idea because it comes more from a coded, diku viewpoint rather than one of immersion. The code may inform you of the fabric, but is your character really going to notice this straight away (or at all)? Try watching some Japanese or Chinese period dramas. The nobles and the servants are all decked out in the most sumptuous fabrics imaginable. In fact it's not much different in most films with a Medieval setting either. The difference is not in the fabrics worn, but how ostentatious the nobility tend to be, from their jewels, to their headwear, to the length of their gowns, and even the number of bodyguards in their company. I would feel like the pettiest player imaginable if I started counting the number of silk items on a PC's equipment list to determine if they should be bullied or not. But with the ability to produce master crafted items, the power is in the players' hands if they wish to implement new lines of fashion and new (less diku) means of differentiating commoner from noble. Let the appearance be the emphasis, not the fabric.

[BadSkeelz]

I would write kudos to a Templar who knocked out commoners in the street, stole all their silk, and junked it in front of them when they woke up. Then tossed a shit-smeared sandcloth robe down on their nakedness. "Learn your place, citizen."

Plus it'd help the economy by stimulating more clothes buying.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't think silk needs to be more heavily/artificially regulated.  There's like... zero bad outcomes to any combination of related choices involved.

If commoners don't wear silk we have gritty downtrodden Zalanthas.
If commoners wear silk and no nobles take offense we have a lovely, vibrant fashion scene.
If commoners wear silk and nobles do take offense we have a cutthroat social balancing act of trying to be well-dressed but not offensively so.

I'm fine with this "battleground" shifting based on the current crop of players.  You all like it when players affect the game, right?  Think of this as an economy microcosm that's completely player-controlled.

Best post I've seen in this thread.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm actually fine with this.

[Clearsighted]

I don't think silk needs to be more heavily/artificially regulated.  There's like... zero bad outcomes to any combination of related choices involved.

If commoners don't wear silk we have gritty downtrodden Zalanthas.
If commoners wear silk and no nobles take offense we have a lovely, vibrant fashion scene.
If commoners wear silk and nobles do take offense we have a cutthroat social balancing act of trying to be well-dressed but not offensively so.

I'm fine with this "battleground" shifting based on the current crop of players.  You all like it when players affect the game, right?  Think of this as an economy microcosm that's completely player-controlled.

If people are able to accept that these are all potentially rational IC situations, then yes. That's great, and there's no problem with the current setup. If only one is accepted, and the other two are OOCly condemned (despite say, cheap silk being freely available for about the cost of a raptor steak), then there gets to be a certain dissonance.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with that too, Sighted.

I'd also be fine with lowered profit for indie crafters, raised value for merchants for silks. This is adjusted by the buy/sell value of the merchant. And of course, the PC player base.

[Majikal]

But the current rationale surrounding silk just doesn't make sense, when it's cheaper and more available than even average quality mercenary armor.

I just want the game world to be consistent with expectations. If it's really as rare and taboo as people claim, then up the cost of silk, and restrict the purchase of raw silk to a purely Kadian specialty. I don't think this would be too difficult to do. (Raise the base material value of silk, and then remove the raw silk where it's sold by NPCs).

If silk is supposed to be this cheap and plentiful, then people shouldn't be surprised when people treat it like an upper middle class luxury item. Hell, Ariada must have a warehouse of it.

I guess the status quo is fine, if you like having obscure, nonsensical points of local tradition to ding newbies on. But otherwise, it just doesn't align with the game world's own internal narrative.

Pretty much sums up my view on it, while I've always thrown a weird look at commoners without noble affiliations or anything rocking out in their silk tailored outfits, the coded game world reflects an easy and fairly affordable access to silk which would suggest we're treating it incorrectly in game. Mebbe it's part of the super-sekrit black silk braies club messing up everything.