Silk

[Barzalene]

The thing about commoners and silks is that it's part of the culture that we have invented. I think it's something that staff has accepted but a bias that has come from the playerbase. Maybe it doesn't reflect the feelings of every player, but it does reflect how players think the world should work. (Kind of neat, even if you don't like the frowning on silk thing, that we have built a culture with rules that has become pretty sophisticated.)

And it shifts about. I remember when all the magickers were running around in silk dresses. I've seen aides publicly chastised for wearing too much. I've had Kadians dedicate a lot of their time to making non-silk items for the upper class Naki commoner.

Anyway. It kind of needed it's own thread.

[Delusion]

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

[Barzalene]

Maybe staff would be interested in a player collaboration project for middle class clothes.

[Talia]

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

It has been this way for a very long time. All the time that I myself have been playing in and staffing for Allanak, and it was not a new thing when I began playing in Allanak, either. Sometimes it wavers due to players' varying attitudes or misunderstanding about the culture, but the actual culture of Allanak as played and documented is that silk isn't for commoners. To quote from the documentation (which is old):

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles. Another difference in commoner attire is that it tends to be looser, more comfortable, and less hindering, in order to be practical for everyday use.

Compare to Tuluki culture:

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners' clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

[Tetra]

It has been this way for a very long time. All the time that I myself have been playing in and staffing for Allanak, and it was not a new thing when I began playing in Allanak, either. Sometimes it wavers due to players' varying attitudes or misunderstanding about the culture, but the actual culture of Allanak as played and documented is that silk isn't for commoners. To quote from the documentation (which is old):

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles. Another difference in commoner attire is that it tends to be looser, more comfortable, and less hindering, in order to be practical for everyday use.

The way it's phrased honestly sounds open for interpretation.  It sounds more assumptive; that commoners wear inexpensive textiles because they're just that, affordable for a very poor population.  It doesn't really set a hard fast rule, but broadly generalizes what would be realistic for the world(because people shouldn't be able to afford water, let alone silk).

[Clearsighted]

From a purely OOC standpoint, there isn't enough available variety of cotton and linen clothing, compared to the apparently vast array of different sorts of silk available. Not much choice at all for a middle class Allanaki commoner. And that sucks, but the prevailing in-game view for the past two real life years or so appears to have been that commoners cannot have nice things in Allanak.

It has been this way for a very long time. All the time that I myself have been playing in and staffing for Allanak, and it was not a new thing when I began playing in Allanak, either. Sometimes it wavers due to players' varying attitudes or misunderstanding about the culture, but the actual culture of Allanak as played and documented is that silk isn't for commoners. To quote from the documentation (which is old):

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles. Another difference in commoner attire is that it tends to be looser, more comfortable, and less hindering, in order to be practical for everyday use.

Compare to Tuluki culture:

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners' clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

It's simply silly, because the cheap cost of many silk items (many of them less expensive than the gear a Byn Trooper might acquire) suggests that silk is more of an upper middle class thing. I remember when the silk taboo came about, and I thought it was silly then. Although John posted about it being an organic PC trend, I remember it being staff enforced as well.

Anyways. I think silk needs a bump in cost. I think lengths of silk shouldn't be available to commoners. Because if it is really primarily worn by nobles in the South, it would have to be incredibly rare and expensive, for any kind of market for it to exist, that caters only to the tiny population of real and virtual nobility. Perhaps only Kadius would know how to manufacture it.

So there you go. That's the dilemma. That's why this thread exists. Its current availability, cost and prevalence suggests its an upper middle class luxury (as it was IRL).

[LauraMars]

There's a difference between being able to afford something and that thing being a socially appropriate practice to adopt.  A commoner might be able to afford silk, but it's seen as socially inappropriate to put yourself on the same fashion level as a noble unless you have the social chops to back it up.  And that's something that is pretty self policing in game.

[John]

I think the tabboo comes from commoners appearing to try to rise above their station. If you're wearing all silk then you could be seen as trying to pass yourself off as a noble. If you're wearing a silk scarf though and nothing else about your conduct or appearance is suspect? You might get a raised eyebrow but I doubt anything would happen to you. Trying to buy slaves, hire an aide and do several other things that would normally be associated with nobles? You'll probably face considerable trouble and it won't matter if you're decked out in nothing but sandcloth.

I think this is best left up to players at the time. As a general rule commoners aren't expected to wear silks. But there can always be exceptions. Let players seek out those exceptions and leave it up to players to enforce the social mores.

[LauraMars]

I also wanted to mention that it's not just about nobles feeling offended, it's about the privilege the ruling class has to oppress the weak.  There are plenty of reasons and ways for commoners to wear silk in game right now, but the circumstances must be correct.

A trusted aide could be gifted silk clothing from her noble, or wear silk as part of her uniform.  Nobody is going to harass her.  She's the right hand woman of Lady Oash.  The ruling class want Lady Oash's money and/or favor.  The aide is safe (unless Lady Oash has enemies, in which case the aide has bigger problems than her wardrobe.)

A Kadian merchant could wear silk to advertise his products.  Nobody is going to harass him, because the ruling class wants to buy silk from him, and he has a powerful family who regularly shovels money in the direction of the Templarate to protect their employees.  The merchant is safe.

An independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune and 0 political backing is going to be harassed.  Here is a fellow who spends 99% of his time spam crafting in the Gaj, with no friends but half-elf rangers and whiran scavengers.  He is openly displaying his wealth, and the ruling class wants to oppress the common class and accumulate more wealth.  How did this nobody become so wealthy?  Take his money.

[Clearsighted]

There's a difference between being able to afford something and that thing being a socially appropriate practice to adopt.  A commoner might be able to afford silk, but it's seen as socially inappropriate to put yourself on the same fashion level as a noble unless you have the social chops to back it up.  And that's something that is pretty self policing in game.

Maybe. I find this too arbitrary to be entirely satisfactory, and only a worthy explanation if one were absolutely committed to maintaining the status quo.

Because again, intrinsically, the market for silk would collapse overnight if it were really only available to nobles at its current prices. And lengths of silk are extremely cheap and easy to acquire for even modest entrepreneurial crafters.

People have objected to raising the cost of silk in the past, because it would make it easier for people to make fortunes tailoring it. But realistically, people shouldn't even be able to buy lengths of silk to begin with at less than extraordinary costs or through a special broker (Kadius).

In game, silk is readily and cheaply acquired from any number of dirty, non-Kadian merchants.

Of course the other solution, is just to stop mincing around the taboo and treat silk like what it used to be, and is still treated as price and availability wise: an upper middle class luxury item. Although, something like a 'silk tax' being levied by the templarate, or seeing someone wearing silk as an invitation to shake them down, if they're not noble or protected, should be a common thing.

[valeria]

I'm with Laura.  And I think it's usually handled IC pretty well.  Zalanthas is not a capitalistic democracy.  You don't get to do something just because you can 'afford' to do it.  It's more like not being allowed to wear purple, even if you can afford the expensive dyes needed for a true purple, because purple is the royal color and it's simply not done for someone without royal blood to wear purple.

I think it's just fine.

[Clearsighted]

I'm with Laura.  And I think it's usually handled IC pretty well.  Zalanthas is not a capitalistic democracy.  You don't get to do something just because you can 'afford' to do it.  It's more like not being allowed to wear purple, even if you can afford the expensive dyes needed for a true purple, because purple is the royal color and it's simply not done for someone without royal blood to wear purple.

I think it's just fine.

That's all well and good, but purple dye was vastly more expensive. There's a good reason the Roman Emperor had a monopoly on it. And even so, it was sold from time to time, or the occasional allowance made, in return for a considerable profit.

There's also the fact that the process of making it was so secretive and protected, that even today, we're not entirely sure how it was done. Although, many have researched it and tried. (It required a certain species of sea-urchin or such, if I recall correctly.)

This is also how silk was treated in many ancient or medieval societies. Although, I doubt that silkworms could survive in Zalanthas. Apparently they do, or a Zalanthas alternative exists. In any case, silk was always a royal or imperial monopoly, and a closely guarded state secret. It was a big deal for Byzantine monks to smuggle the silkworm out of China. And it was a big deal when the Norman kingdom of Sicily kidnapped the silk weavers from Byzantium, to set up their own monopoly in Palermo. A silk robe, in the 12th century, would cost about as much, relative to other expenses, to what a sports car might cost us today.

In Zalanthas, a silk robe costs about as much 30 scrab meat shishkabobs.

Blah blah blah, RL history, whatever. I know.

But the current rationale surrounding silk just doesn't make sense, when it's cheaper and more available than even average quality mercenary armor.

Let me reiterate. I have no dog in this fight. I just want the game world to be consistent with expectations. If it's really as rare and taboo as people claim, then up the cost of silk, and restrict the purchase of raw silk to a purely Kadian specialty. I don't think this would be too difficult to do. (Raise the base material value of silk, and then remove the raw silk where it's sold by NPCs).

If silk is supposed to be this cheap and plentiful, then people shouldn't be surprised when people treat it like an upper middle class luxury item. Hell, Ariada must have a warehouse of it.

I guess the status quo is fine, if you like having obscure, nonsensical points of local tradition to ding newbies on. But otherwise, it just doesn't align with the game world's own internal narrative.

[valeria]

I think you mean, you want the game world to be consistent with YOUR expectations.  I'm fine with a game world in which IC prejudices mandate that commoners cannot wear silk, even if they could afford it, except under socially acceptable circumstances.  It makes sense that a society would have social stigmas and taboos, even if those are 'artificially' created.

[Clearsighted]

I think you mean, you want the game world to be consistent with YOUR expectations.  I'm fine with a game world in which IC prejudices mandate that commoners cannot wear silk, even if they could afford it, except under socially acceptable circumstances.  It makes sense that a society would have social stigmas and taboos, even if those are 'artificially' created.

You don't seem to grasp that the market for silk simply wouldn't exist, if those prejudices were real among the VNPC population. There'd be no incentive to produce or sell the silk, because no one but nobles or the especially favored could wear it.

Thus, the supply of silk would go down, and as such things must happen, its cost would inevitably go up.

It's not about me, or my expectations.

There are some things that are unrealistic. Such as overhauling a whole database of items. There are other changes that are realistic, such as reducing the availability of raw silk, and changing silk's base value. Those changes, if they can be tweaked to make the game world more plausible, should be tweaked.

Why are bolts of silk even sold to commoners in the first place if it's so taboo?

But by all means, instead of actually engaging with the question, continue to make it about me.

[Armaddict]

I recall when everyone wore silks.

It -was- out of control, pretty much every aide-type and non-hunting type was decked out silk.  Because it was that manageable.  And nobles liked decking out their aides, because it gave them status, which...you know...is kind of the point.

The problem was when there were certain low class commoners who lived long periods of time, and ended up better dressed than nobles.  Some nobles banded together, started picking those commoners out of the crowd, asking who they thought they were...it became a topic on the GDB, and blam.  Documentation.

As stated in the other thread, I have no qualms with silk being an off limits item.  But that also means silk shouldn't account for 66%(made up figure) of the non-armor item database and 70%(made up figure) of what's on display for sale for any given day.  There are other places, but their items do not rotate. Which makes for a very -bland- look for clothing outside of silk, which is...irritating, for those who don't want to wear armor.

To put it simply...'accessorizing and customizing' is a large part of some people's enjoyment of their character.  Having very very limited options as far as clothes go can be frustrating.  Luckily...I usually wear armor.

[Tetra]

I'm with Laura.  And I think it's usually handled IC pretty well.  Zalanthas is not a capitalistic democracy.  You don't get to do something just because you can 'afford' to do it.  It's more like not being allowed to wear purple, even if you can afford the expensive dyes needed for a true purple, because purple is the royal color and it's simply not done for someone without royal blood to wear purple.

I think it's just fine.

There's a shop in the Bazaar that sells semi-nondescript basic items of silk(and other) fabric?    I find it hard to imagine a noble ever going out of their way to shop there, or wear something as plain-jane as the garments created from that stall.  So it begs the question, why?

Silk is so blatantly available and yet nobody is wearing it.  While I don't think commoners should be dripping in silk, it certainly doesn't make sense that a extreme minority is wearing it -- but somehow its being sold everywhere virtually.  It doesn't make actual sense, is what bothers me.


tldr; It is less about nobles vs commoners having the right to wear silk, but that silk itself proliferates the game market to such an extent that it disconnects with the supposed sumptuary laws.

I also wanted to mention that it's not just about nobles feeling offended, it's about the privilege the ruling class has to oppress the weak.  There are plenty of reasons and ways for commoners to wear silk in game right now, but the circumstances must be correct.

A trusted aide could be gifted silk clothing from her noble, or wear silk as part of her uniform.  Nobody is going to harass her.  She's the right hand woman of Lady Oash.  The ruling class want Lady Oash's money and/or favor.  The aide is safe (unless Lady Oash has enemies, in which case the aide has bigger problems than her wardrobe.)

A Kadian merchant could wear silk to advertise his products.  Nobody is going to harass him, because the ruling class wants to buy silk from him, and he has a powerful family who regularly shovels money in the direction of the Templarate to protect their employees.  The merchant is safe.

An independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune and 0 political backing is going to be harassed.  Here is a fellow who spends 99% of his time spam crafting in the Gaj, with no friends but half-elf rangers and whiran scavengers.  He is openly displaying his wealth, and the ruling class wants to oppress the common class and accumulate more wealth.  How did this nobody become so wealthy?  Take his money.

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

[Barzalene]

 But that also means silk shouldn't account for 66%(made up figure) of the non-armor item database and 70%(made up figure) of what's on display for sale for any given day.  There are other places, but their items do not rotate. Which makes for a very -bland- look for clothing outside of silk, which is...irritating, for those who don't want to wear armor.

To put it simply...'accessorizing and customizing' is a large part of some people's enjoyment of their character.  Having very very limited options as far as clothes go can be frustrating.  Luckily...I usually wear armor.

I agree with this. I think it bears thought.

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

And I agree with this.

[LauraMars]

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

Oh, I agree with this as well.  My image of the salt baron (or the ivory needle baron to be trendy) is that he was wearing a full silk outfit but you're right, I didn't really specify.

As for bolts of silk being for sale to commoners...I think it is probably ok for commoners to craft with silk?  I mean a noble isn't going to be sewing silk garments for themself that is for sure.

[Clearsighted]

As for bolts of silk being for sale to commoners...I think it is probably ok for commoners to craft with silk?  I mean a noble isn't going to be sewing silk garments for themselves that is for sure.

Shouldn't it be more of a specialized Kadian thing, given the very tiny market? I don't think there would realistically be room for non-GMH competition.

[Barzalene]

I think it has to not be sold by Kadius. They specialize in finished goods, not raw products. If it was up to Kadius, only they would craft silk. They have no incentive to sell it.

[Tetra]

I completely agree.  Except I think harassing that independent merchant with a salt-baron fortune when he is wearing, lets say, a silk belt/bandana is being too nitpicky on an IC level.

Oh, I agree with this as well.  My image of the salt baron (or the ivory needle baron to be trendy) is that he was wearing a full silk outfit but you're right, I didn't really specify.

As for bolts of silk being for sale to commoners...I think it is probably ok for commoners to craft with silk?  I mean a noble isn't going to be sewing silk garments for themselves that is for sure.

Whole silk outfit, definitely not.  But I would further play devil's advocate and say such an individual shouldn't be waltzing around in silk, if they amass their wealth by foraging for salt in the wilderness(it's not a very practical fabric to wear for physical labor).

Perhaps my views on this subject would be different if silk were not sold so readily available everywhere, and there were 60% more linen/cotton items for sale.

If staff started a project, I'm literally willing to design 50 world-appropriate garments from scratch as volunteer work, if they were hypothetically loaded into the game.


Edit: To summarize, I think this "no silk for commoners" should be acknowledged more as a social faux pas with possible consequences, rather than an actual 'law'.

[Barzalene]

I'd commit to a dozen.
I think it would be cool to start with a list of what people would like in an upscale non-silk item.

[Clearsighted]

I think it has to not be sold by Kadius. They specialize in finished goods, not raw products. If it was up to Kadius, only they would craft silk. They have no incentive to sell it.

Right. I don't think anyone but Kadius should have access to raw silk. And I agree, Kadius probably wouldn't sell it. It just doesn't seem plausible for any dirty commoner with a few small in their pocket, to have access to bolts of unworked silk. Especially when they primarily only sell it to other commoners, or back to Kadius.

It wouldn't be possible to raise the cost of silk items, (so that, say, it's more expensive than a set of leather studded pants), without restricting commoner access to bolts of silk.

[Talia]

Please don't get all het up about building a lot of non-silk items right now. Especially don't just send stuff in that you want staff to build. Staff are working on other stuff. If someone wants to pick this up as a project, they will. Until the point where some staffer says "send me items," please hold off.

[Barzalene]

Please don't get all het up about building a lot of non-silk items right now. Especially don't just send stuff in that you want staff to build. Staff are working on other stuff. If someone wants to pick this up as a project, they will. Until the point where some staffer says "send me items," please hold off.

Noted.