There's a problem with money in the game

[wizturbo]

Guy picks a common material, sticks his face on it, and says it has value. And the whole of society goes along with it.  It could even all be a joke to those in power.

"Look at all those poor dumb commoners trading bits of rock for the fruits of their labor!"

It's not a good economic system by any means, and it's hardly sustainable. Things rarely get done because they will cost actual wealth, and the people with it typically don't want to do anything to risk losing what they have or enabling the have-nots to get something of their own.

Let's assume for a moment that we agree with this, that money is ultimately a joke that Tek's playing on the world.  Cool.  That's fine.  But the game's player base is 99% played by the "fooled" people, not the people in power.  To have a "fools" economy that doesn't operate on supply and demand, suggests that these people don't function like rational beings.  That a person would pay huge sums of coin, for an item that's common, plentiful, and fairly useless to day to day life makes no sense (plenty of items are like this).  And of course the reverse is true, some items are worth diddly, when they're insanely rare and valuable to the "fools".

I think no matter how you slice it, a few things could use tweaking, but I can completely understand if this is a project that never happens...because its big, complicated, and perhaps in the end wouldn't have enough bang for it's effort-buck.

[Clearsighted]

Could Tek please fix the chalton/ivory hair needle economics?

Guy picks a common material, sticks his face on it, and says it has value. And the whole of society goes along with it.  It could even all be a joke to those in power.

"Look at all those poor dumb commoners trading bits of rock for the fruits of their labor!"

It's not a good economic system by any means, and it's hardly sustainable. Things rarely get done because they will cost actual wealth, and the people with it typically don't want to do anything to risk losing what they have or enabling the have-nots to get something of their own.

Let's assume for a moment that we agree with this, that money is ultimately a joke that Tek's playing on the world.  Cool.  That's fine.  But the game's player base is 99% played by the "fooled" people, not the people in power.  To have a "fools" economy that doesn't operate on supply and demand, suggests that these people don't function like rational beings.  

Hey, well said, Turbo.

[Taijan]

Since when have people behaved like rational beings? 

I just want to reiterate that this is just my opinion on money, and not an official stance of staff.  That being said, I didn't think it was THAT depressing, seeing how commonly I've seen the belief that money is worthless played out by tribals.  And I don't think that the people in power really think all that differently.

I did leave two big things out of wealth: goods and services, which the people in power are some of the biggest consumers of.  These are the things that really make the world go round, and are one of the biggest things that commoners are able to provide - after all, that's how the Great Merchant Houses were able to get power, and how other merchant houses are able to rise up. Groups like the Byn as well. They provide services to commoners, sure, but above all they cater to the needs of the powerful.

So, money's not enough to get things done (in my opinion).  Proving a need or creating a want in the people who have power - that's the way to get stuff done, and well within the possibilities that players can pursue.

I wanted to use this picture before but just couldn't think of how to work it in:

[wizturbo]

I'm totally 100% behind the notion that money alone won't get you power.  That's true in real life, that's true even moreso in Zalanthas.

Violence > Politics > Money

Sorcerer-Kings have violence in spades.  And that's why they rule the world.  Nobles have political power...i.e. the supreme violent powers like them, and don't seem to want to take away their toys.  In fact, the Sorcerer-Kings give these families wealth in the form of their House stipends, but the coin they receive is nothing compared to the privileged status from this relationship.  Great Merchant Houses also have some political mojo.  

Commoners, they don't have much in the way of violence or political power on a macro level, but they do have some money.  Getting the systems in place to make that feel realistic seems worth it to me.  For instance if the combat systems were broken, and without any modifiers for strength, daggers did ten times the amount of damage as a greatsword it would affect the belivability and immersion of the world.   When you see a commoner whose filthy rich (in comparison to other commoners) from doing low risk, easy to do activities that require no special resources, whereas those doing high risk, difficult activities are dirt poor, it has the same effect as that dagger vs. greatsword comparison.   The same is true when some items are priced like greatswords, but are chipped daggers, or vice versa.

With that said, I don't think a major overhaul is necessarily worth the time.  Some well thought out, but relatively small adjustments could go a long way and making things a bit more immersive and realistic.  I think the majority of the player base agrees on this too, as economy was ranked #1 on that poll that went up not long ago.

[Eyeball]

The value of obsidian coins are at least partly anchored by the fact they can be exchanged at a given rate for water in the temple. Each coin is backed by a certain amount of water in a desert-dry world.

Unlike our paper fiat currencies in the real world, which are backed by nothing at all. And yet people still go nuts trying to accumulate them, without ever necessarily dreaming of "buying a senator" too.

[Eyeball]

Eyeball started off by saying that there isn't much that 'sid could be used for by the common people, and I think that's spot on. Rather than seeing it as a problem, I think it demonstrates the system perfectly.

I don't. I see no reason why a commoner, who has the coins, should not be able to pay a carpenter to build a cart or pay a couple of crappy mercenaries a crappy wage to watch over a crappy workshop. I see no reason why this would not be possible in a functioning economy with a medium of exchange. It's purely an OOC limit.

Even if people start claiming such things are prevented by the templars and the political climate in Allanak, it should still be possible in Red Storm, Cenyr and even Luir's outpost.

[Taijan]

Carts = something Talia addressed earlier in this thread, the limiting factor being coding issues and having earlier work lost, but something that can hopefully be worked on again in the future.
Workshops and mercenaries = covered rather nicely by player created clans being a possibility now.

[Eyeball]

Carts = something Talia addressed earlier in this thread, the limiting factor being coding issues and having earlier work lost, but something that can hopefully be worked on again in the future.
Workshops and mercenaries = covered rather nicely by player created clans being a possibility now.

Carts are just an example, Taijan. Dingy little private workshops aren't available in the same way crappy private hovels aren't available; the closest thing is setting up a minor merchant house after RL years of effort by several people. But the point is these things are are all just examples anyhow. Here are some more: bathtubs or even small bathhouses, NPC slaves that have little combat ability but follow the owner's orders (e.g. to serve a meal to guests), ability to purchase access to fortified way points out in the desert, palanquins and rickshaws, privileged commoners' boxes in the Arena (buy a token and sit apart from the riff-raff and 'rinthers for the rest of your life), player-owned brothels, betting on large-scale stadium events (e.g. races), etc. The limit on giving commoners outlet for their coins is the imagination.

[Talia]

Carts are just an example, Taijan. Dingy little private workshops aren't available in the same way crappy private hovels aren't available; the closest thing is setting up a minor merchant house after RL years of effort by several people. But the point is these things are are all just examples anyhow. Here are some more: bathtubs or even small bathhouses, NPC slaves that have little combat ability but follow the owner's orders (e.g. to serve a meal to guests), ability to purchase access to fortified way points out in the desert, palanquins and rickshaws, privileged commoners' boxes in the Arena (buy a token and sit apart from the riff-raff and 'rinthers for the rest of your life), player-owned brothels, betting on large-scale stadium events (e.g. races), etc. The limit on giving commoners outlet for their coins is the imagination.

So your argument is that these things are too difficult to achieve, rather than that they can't be achieved? You seem to be really stuck on the idea that things are not possible.

Dingy private workshops - Renting a warehouse in Allanak takes like an IC year of effort. Not really that big of a deal. Quite a few players have managed to achieve this, thus far.

Small bathhouse - See player clan progression if you want to run a bathhouse. You don't have to go farther than warehouse/merchant status if you don't want to - again, takes some IC years of effort, but it's not that big of a deal. Players are doing it. Arguably, this is not very Zalanthan and you won't really have a customer base, but you can try if you want.

NPC slaves - Available to those whom it makes sense to have purchase them, e.g. merchant family, templars, nobles.

Fortified way points in the desert - I don't really understand what you mean, but I'll grant you, this is not something that is currently possible (whatever it is).

Palanquins and rickshaws - There is a PC in game right now who possesses something like this, achieved via IC means.

Commoner's box in Arena - Kind of a neat idea. I'd have to look at code for doing this, I think there's something applicable. Not top of my priority list right now, though.

Player-owned brothel - see player-clan progression.

Betting on Arena events - players could organize this already. Doesn't require staff.

[RogueGunslinger]

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Carts = something Talia addressed earlier in this thread, the limiting factor being coding issues and having earlier work lost, but something that can hopefully be worked on again in the future.
Workshops and mercenaries = covered rather nicely by player created clans being a possibility now.

Carts are just an example, Taijan. Dingy little private workshops aren't available in the same way crappy private hovels aren't available; the closest thing is setting up a minor merchant house after RL years of effort by several people. But the point is these things are are all just examples anyhow. Here are some more: bathtubs or even small bathhouses, NPC slaves that have little combat ability but follow the owner's orders (e.g. to serve a meal to guests), ability to purchase access to fortified way points out in the desert, palanquins and rickshaws, privileged commoners' boxes in the Arena (buy a token and sit apart from the riff-raff and 'rinthers for the rest of your life), player-owned brothels, betting on large-scale stadium events (e.g. races), etc. The limit on giving commoners outlet for their coins is the imagination.

What is your solution though? Automating all that stuff through code or specific policies would be a super hard and take up tons of staff time and likely see very little use by the players. And the current process of asking staff for assistance for specific things seems to be fairly adequate in addressing those sorts of requests.

I also don't think those sort of requests would be something the majority of characters can realistically accomplish. Nor do I think the majority of players are willing to put in the work it would require to get those things. Those that are? They can stir up a dialog with staff and try to get things done right now without any changes.

[Desertman]

My favorite scene in all of Batman...ever....

[Eyeball]

You seem to be really stuck on the idea that things are not possible.

Ok, for sake of argument, say they are. It's still only through staff involvement and so it takes some time. So it can't serve as a practical soak of coins the way things automated within the game can.

What is your solution though? Automating all that stuff through code or specific policies would be a super hard and take up tons of staff time

I hope this means we can at least agree that it's an OOC limitation now.

Also, I was hoping that the addition of the builders would alleviate this particular concern.

What more can I say without being unintentionally insulting? I guess coming from a strong programming background and having worked extensively with LPMuds in the past, which frankly were more complex than DikuMUDs, I don't see such features as being very challenging. But I can understand the need to limit access to the code base and that not everyone is a coder.  

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd love more coders/builders and whatnot to make the process smoother, you should apply!

[Eyeball]

I'd love more coders/builders and whatnot to make the process smoother, you should apply!

I applied to be a Builder and was turned down. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Hah. Welp. Balls in your court, staff.

[BadSkeelz]

Well, most of what Eyeball listed is doable in game with a bit of effort from players and imagination to fill in a gap or two.

[wizturbo]

Dingy private workshops - Renting a warehouse in Allanak takes like an IC year of effort. Not really that big of a deal. Quite a few players have managed to achieve this, thus far.

Might be worth revisiting the number of warehouses available for rent with Tuluk's closure.

[Talia]

Also, I was hoping that the addition of the builders would alleviate this particular concern.

I'd love more coders/builders and whatnot to make the process smoother, you should apply!

Builders don't code. Builders build. We have three of them and they are all working on stuff, while also doing things like having lives and continuing to play the game. They've done quite a bit of stuff between them, but they weren't ever supposed to be the answer to "more stuff you can do with your coins that is automated."

Players seem to have odd ideas about what the Builders do, or can do, or should do. In a nutshell, they work hand-in-hand with staff to build things (rooms, areas, NPCs, objects) to support projects that staff is working on. Thus far, Builders have worked on things like:

-- Extended scars and disfigurements for PCs
-- Updated tastes and scents for foods
-- NPCs for the GMHs to largely replace the item order process
-- Clay pits for Allanak
-- And a couple of other projects that they are currently working on

There's nothing in Eyeball's list of suggestions that can be fixed by just throwing Builders at it. There's very little there that needs fixing, since it is nearly all do-able with current processes. Yes, it is true that there is a lot that could be imagined for the game that if you want to do it you will need to handle it yourself without automation (such as Arena betting), or involve staff in (for creating a business with a warehouse). I don't know what to say about this other than that it's unrealistic to think that Armageddon will ever be a game that is fully automated for every single thing a player can imagine doing. Nor do I think I would even want it to be--e.g., coin-operated politics, put your obsidian in, a Senate vote drops out of the machine??

Might be worth revisiting the number of warehouses available for rent with Tuluk's closure.

We are keeping an eye on this and have had some discussion about it.

[Eyeball]

There's nothing in Eyeball's list of suggestions that can be fixed by just throwing Builders at it.

I never claimed it could, but they could at least offload some of the work, since it would also involve creating rooms and NPCs.

There's very little there that needs fixing, since it is nearly all do-able with current processes.

Let's take betting on races as an example. Could something be set up by players alone? The answer is "sort of", and the problem is people take "sort of" and treat it like "yes".

Yes, there could be some player set up races. The problems with such races is that (1) there wouldn't be a truly random element, they'd be a function of who could type most quickly, and (2) it would die as soon as the player running it dies.

Now compare that to templar-triggered arena events where people could bet favorite lizards or erdlus with team colors (or House colors, even), or whatever, with a NPC bookie. Random, codedly-handled outcome? Check. Dies as soon as a templar dies? No. Potential Noble House interest in their own teams? Check. (Maybe they could maintain a stable of animals, adding to it through capture, with each animal having its own characteristics in a race. But that's getting ahead of things).

The same thing applies to other items on the list, and again, they are just examples. I can supply more examples if you want. Picking apart individual examples doesn't accomplish much. Claiming that I'm demanding all of them, which I'm not, only muddies the issue.

[bcw81]

There's very little there that needs fixing, since it is nearly all do-able with current processes.

Let's take betting on races as an example. Could something be set up by players alone? The answer is "sort of", and the problem is people take "sort of" and treat it like "yes".

Yes, there could be some player set up races. The problems with such races is that (1) there wouldn't be a truly random element, they'd be a function of who could type most quickly, and (2) it would die as soon as the player running it dies.

Now compare that to templar-triggered arena events where people could bet favorite lizards or erdlus with team colors (or House colors, even), or whatever, with a NPC bookie. Random, codedly-handled outcome? Check. Dies as soon as a templar dies? No. Potential Noble House interest in their own teams? Check.

The same thing applies to other items on the list, and again, they are just examples. I can supply more examples if you want. Picking apart individual examples doesn't accomplish much.

There is already scripting for gambling in the game and it really adds all of nothing. You tend to have an NPC gambler who gets used and abused in the early hours of the morning by a single PC, if that. No one ever RPs with the NPC gamblers. No one ever RPs with other PCs around them. They're boring and pointless in an RP based mud.

[Delirium]

Wizturbo is saying what I feel a lot more eloquently and less... bluntly, I guess?

I also agree that a little careful tweaking and attention to merchants (more hide buyers, item sell/buy price adjustments, vnpc sale adjustments, etc) could go a long way.

[Eyeball]

The difference is that it would be a public event, with political connections to the Noble Houses, not one PC gambling in a tent in an obscure location.

Alright, you've all succeeded in wearing me out. It sounds to me like most of you are pretty happy with the way things are. I'll leave it at that. It's too bad because there's so much potential here.

[valeria]

My problem with automation is that the second you automate something, people's imaginations decrease and they tend to stop caring.  Take the strip tease in the old Sanctuary, for instance.  And compare it to a player-run strip-tease event.  I never saw anyone watch the automated strip tease.  

Automated events are nice in theory, but they quickly lose their charm for me (and seemingly other people).

[bcw81]

My problem with automation is that the second you automate something, people's imaginations decrease and they tend to stop caring.  Take the strip tease in the old Sanctuary, for instance.  And compare it to a player-run strip-tease event.  I never saw anyone watch the automated strip tease.  

Automated events are nice in theory, but they quickly lose their charm for me (and seemingly other people).

:c RIP Tuluk.

But yeah, that's my view in a nutshell. You can already do everything you want in game with just a little effort.

[MeTekillot]

That is incorrect.

Well, perhaps everything YOU want.