There's a problem with money in the game

[Eyeball]

In my view, there's a problem with money in the game. It just doesn't have utility beyond a certain point for the common character.

What can a commoner use it for? Food, water, gear, apartments. That's it. Any money beyond that is good for what? Can't buy a wagon, a house, property, a title, any slaves, gladiators to put in the arena, NPC guards, etc.

Sure, you can play a spice head, a drunk or a whore hound and blow it all that way, but you'll probably only want to do that for one or two of your characters, then move on to some other concept.

Bribes? Rewards? Prizes? How can they motivate a character who won't have any use for the coin? Instead of inspiring strenuous competition, the prospect of a monetary award leaves a lot of characters saying "meh". In order to restore the leverage of these RP tools, characters have to have a reason to badly want coins. They have to be able to do something with them.

Money and wealth is an extremely powerful motivator but this motivation is just lacking in-game. Let's put it back in somehow.

[Asmoth]

I agree, there should be more uses for obscene wealth.

[TheWanderer]

excuse me, you can buy furniture.

[BadSkeelz]

Might I introduce you to the Player-Created Merchant House documents, good sirs?

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Player-Created%20Clans

These are pretty much the perfect vanity project.

excuse me, you can buy furniture.

And tattoos!

[MeTekillot]

Obscene wealth is something you should possess only with the blessing of the powers that be. That's a discussion for another tthread. I'll make a better post when I get home from work

[Malken]

The only poor people in this game are noble PCs and GMH merchants heheh

[Asmoth]

Obscene wealth is something you should possess only with the blessing of the powers that be. That's a discussion for another tthread. I'll make a better post when I get home from work

If you salt daily while you practice your crafting skills, after about two days played you have 5 large in the bank.

Need stuff to spend it on.

The only poor people in this game are noble PCs and GMH merchants heheh

This is totally true.

[BadSkeelz]

Obscene wealth is something you should possess only with the blessing of the powers that be. That's a discussion for another tthread. I'll make a better post when I get home from work

Maybe not. It's not unknown for Templars to fine or tax commoners simply for having too much money. It's something that could probably be a little more widespread. The only problem I see with it is that PC Templars in Allanak belong to the War Ministry, and taxation sounds like something that would be done by the City Ministry.

I wonder what would happen if PC Templars got a regular report from Nenyuk about how much money we all have in our bank. Would people start hoarding it in their apartments? Would burglars explode in popularity?

[Molten Heart]

The problem is there are easy ways to obtain huge amounts of money. I believe staff, as a way to deal with this, have decided just to make money not that useful at some point, preferring political power to be more valuable. Because after all, you can't eat or drink money when you're stranded out in the salt flats dying, it can't save you when the dragon is coming to eat you. It's not going to make you stronger or better looking. It's only worth what people are willing to give you for it (which may be part of the problem because it's relatively easy to get)

[Asmoth]

The problem is there are easy ways to obtain huge amounts of money. I believe staff, as a way to deal with this, have decided just to make money not that useful at some point, preferring political power to be more valuable. Because after all, you can't eat or drink money when you're stranded out in the salt flats dying, it can't save you when the dragon is coming to eat you. It's not going to make you stronger or better looking. It's only worth what people are willing to give you for it (which may be part of the problem because it's relatively easy to get)

Which also inflates it in game.  I'm always willing to pay players more than a shop for something because they are players. But when you're like, I need five small for this fifty coin item, then I'm icly and oocly like, get fucked and walk away.

[Eyeball]

The problem is there are easy ways to obtain huge amounts of money. I believe staff, as a way to deal with this, have decided just to make money not that useful at some point

Which is the easiest way to deal with it, but I suggest not the best way to deal with it.

[wizturbo]

Obscene wealth is something you should possess only with the blessing of the powers that be. That's a discussion for another tthread. I'll make a better post when I get home from work

Maybe not. It's not unknown for Templars to fine or tax commoners simply for having too much money. It's something that could probably be a little more widespread. The only problem I see with it is that PC Templars in Allanak belong to the War Ministry, and taxation sounds like something that would be done by the City Ministry.

There's taxation, which would probably come from the Trade Ministry.  Then there's "value-added taxation", the good old "I have a sword, and legal authority to use it on you if you don't give me some of that coin".  I find the second taxation to be more prevalent than the first.  

[nauta]

If you salt daily while you practice your crafting skills, after about two days played you have 5 large in the bank.

I'm pretty sure you know the risks involved in that.

[wizturbo]

When it comes to money, there's still tons of things you can do with it, but most of them require a certain involvement in politics.

For instance, coin could theoretically be used to buy slaves for all kinds of useful tasks...but without  some political/legal backing to authorize it, that won't happen.

[Asmoth]

When it comes to money, there's still tons of things you can do with it, but most of them require a certain involvement in politics.

For instance, coin could theoretically be used to buy slaves for all kinds of useful tasks...but without  some political/legal backing to authorize it, that won't happen.

I would love to know the konami code for buying a slave if.

Being a Templar has to be difficult in that area, because you don't want to find them so icu you cripple them, but you don't want to find them so little they are just like meh.

Delicate balance required.

If you salt daily while you practice your crafting skills, after about two days played you have 5 large in the bank.

I'm pretty sure you know the risks involved in that.

Yes painfully so, but risk/reward!

[Patuk]

I'd just like to chime in that in large part, this kind of thing is working as intended.

Zalanthas is not America. Money is not power, power is not money. Zalanthas is more akin to medieval lands, or ancient ones. Seeing money as the primary sign of wealth is more of a modern notion.

[Eyeball]

When it comes to money, there's still tons of things you can do with it, but most of them require a certain involvement in politics.

Which means most common characters just won't care. Amos is in a clan, he has his gear from Salarr, he has his food and swill, why should he care if someone offers him 1000 'sid?

[Mook]

Arm is not an economic simulator, thankfully.  Think of money as an RP prop.  If you really want to motivate another player, offer them what they really want - interesting RP.

[BadSkeelz]

Most money is acquired through repeatable tasks (salting, hunting, selling crafted items, etc.). Even if you took all of a PC's coin, you wouldn't be doing as much harm to them as if you took their weapons, or their mount, or their materials.

Of course, the tax base could probably keep their rates low and manageable by voluntarily offering "taxes" to their friendly neighborhood Templar, instead of making the Templar do all the work of auditing them.

Which means most common characters just won't care. Amos is in a clan, he has his gear from Salarr, he has his food and swill, why should he care if someone offers him 1000 'sid?

Because I can blow that 'sid on an apartment, more interesting booze, buying fancy useless vanity items (my first character collected figurines), new tattoos, expensive dates...

You're right in that all anyone really needs is food, water, and gear. Once you get those locked in, then you can really start having fun and buy things that give your character character.

[Eyeball]

I'd just like to chime in that in large part, this kind of thing is working as intended.

Zalanthas is not America. Money is not power, power is not money. Zalanthas is more akin to medieval lands, or ancient ones. Seeing money as the primary sign of wealth is more of a modern notion.

I doubt you remember the early days of the game when money could actually still be used to create new things instead of the static, unchanging generally player-unchangeable structures we have now. Interesting times and I miss them.

I think the current state of affairs largely came into being with the gelling of the nobility. The nobility is supposed to be able to lord its luxuries over the commoners, but can't if the commoners can earn all the luxuries themselves.

The answer to that would be to have luxuries that are only available to the nobility while still giving commoners something to strive for. Houses and hovels instead of estates. Carts instead of wagons and argosies.  A couple of ragged subordinates instead of an enormous household staff. Not simply cut a major motivator out of existence.

[hopeandsorrow]

I feel in the case of wealth...

Players are confusing their OOC desire/knowledge with what would motivate their common character ICLY.

OOCLY you know that your character isn't really hurting for coin cause you got that bad ass raptor armor and all the water/food you want.

ICLY 1000 sid is 1000 sid, and that should motivate a character who spent their lives in poverty.

I always hate how it seems that players can't separate their OOC knowledge from their IC.

Yea you can make a ton of money salting... but should you?  At a rate, once you've used it to cover the basics, you should not be out there abusing it.  ICLY if you're character is sleeping in a nice apartment and has GMH level access to water/food... you shouldn't be salting.

I see salting as as "I accidentally spent my starter coin on these boots... shit I need a mount." Type thing.  It's already punishingly boring OOC.

[BadSkeelz]

I cannot honestly envision myself ever not wanting 1000 coins. Maybe it's because I always play straight-combat characters with no crafting ability.

[TheWanderer]

I cannot honestly envision myself ever not wanting 1000 coins. Maybe it's because I always play straight-combat characters with no crafting ability.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Patuk]

I'd just like to chime in that in large part, this kind of thing is working as intended.

Zalanthas is not America. Money is not power, power is not money. Zalanthas is more akin to medieval lands, or ancient ones. Seeing money as the primary sign of wealth is more of a modern notion.

I doubt you remember the early days of the game when money could actually still be used to create new things instead of the static, unchanging generally player-unchangeable structures we have now. Interesting times and I miss them.

I think the current state of affairs largely came into being with the gelling of the nobility. The nobility is supposed to be able to lord its luxuries over the commoners, but can't if the commoners can earn all the luxuries themselves.

The answer to that would be to have luxuries that are only available to the nobility while still giving commoners something to strive for. Houses and hovels instead of estates. Carts instead of wagons and argosies.  A couple of ragged subordinates instead of an enormous household staff. Not simply cut a major motivator out of existence.

Something tells me what you call the old state of things was caused by a high character attrition rate and less OOC knowledge about the game, not because nobles were different.

[AdamBlue]

Even as a combat character, there's always better armor and better weapons to buy. There are also other skills you could spend money on. Hire an elf to teach you their language. Buy more mounts as extras. Go buy shitloads of food from somewhere so you can be sure you won't go hungry. Plan for emergencies. Have an emergency fund built. Bribe some guards for a quick escape from a city should you need one at some point. Buy lots of alcohol/spice and store it away because usually items tend to have greater barter value then money does.