There's a problem with money in the game

[Desertman]

Banknotes accomplish the same thing, though.

Can you take the banknotes to Nenyuk and exchange them for obsidian coins?

That is part of the idea, yes.

So the only difference is really the description of the ticket item we are using.....

I suppose they can give it whatever sdesc they want. *shrug* Doesn't bother me any.

[Desertman]

Pretty sure all this "screwing over the amassing of wealth" would just be one more way veteran players would have a leg up over new players and result in more loss of new players out of a sense of futility.  At least with the bank as it is they can feel like they've done something when they see their first 1,000 sid in the bank.

In my experience it's usually veteran players that finally give up due to a feeling of futility.

If this newbie is able to get so much wealth it fits somewhere other than in their backpack...they really aren't much of a typical newb.

[Marauder Moe]

Pretty sure all this "screwing over the amassing of wealth" would just be one more way veteran players would have a leg up over new players and result in more loss of new players out of a sense of futility.  At least with the bank as it is they can feel like they've done something when they see their first 1,000 sid in the bank.

Except part of the difficulty transitioning players to Armageddon is to get them NOT to fixate on numerical progress.

So the only difference is really the description of the ticket item we are using.....

I suppose they can give it whatever sdesc they want. *shrug* Doesn't bother me any.

No, for a ticket you have no idea what it's worth by looking at it.  For a banknote, the value of it is obvious from its appearance.

[Desertman]

Pretty sure all this "screwing over the amassing of wealth" would just be one more way veteran players would have a leg up over new players and result in more loss of new players out of a sense of futility.  At least with the bank as it is they can feel like they've done something when they see their first 1,000 sid in the bank.

Except part of the difficulty transitioning players to Armageddon is to get them NOT to fixate on numerical progress.

So the only difference is really the description of the ticket item we are using.....

I suppose they can give it whatever sdesc they want. *shrug* Doesn't bother me any.

No, for a ticket you have no idea what it's worth by looking at it.  For a banknote, the value of it is obvious from its appearance.

A Nenyuk-stamped leather ticket.

Look Ticket

This ticket is made of leather. It has been stamped with the sigil of House Nenyuk. It is commonly used to claim coin deposits at their banks within the cities and outposts of Zalanthas.
A large black coin has been inked on it.


Following that thought:
A half a large black coin has been inked on it.
A small black coin has been inked on it.
A half a small black coin has been inked on it.


It would even give some IC "lore" in regards to people calling it a large and a small.

But really, I would just keep a few tickets in different containers on my body and remember what each was for. Why? Because that's easy and I don't see a problem. I personally would always know how much money was on my tickets and don't see an issue.

In the end, it is a matter of flavor for me. I really hate the idea of paper money in Zalanthas. I really like the idea of leather tickets that do the same thing as your paper money, because it seems to follow the theme. In the end, I don't really care enough to make a stink about what sdesc they give the ticket/banknote items, so long as the general idea gets in.

[Marauder Moe]

...

Paper is the part you're objecting to?  I did include leather as an option in my post about the idea.


Also I'd definitely want the denomination to be somehow indicated by the sdesc/keywords.

"Small" and "large" already have lore/reason why people use those terms, but certainly those terms could be adopted for banknotes.

[Desertman]

...

Paper is the part you're objecting to?  I did include leather as an option in my post about the idea.


Also I'd definitely want the denomination to be somehow indicated by the sdesc/keywords.

"Small" and "large" already have lore/reason why people use those terms, but certainly those terms could be adopted for banknotes.

I'm with you.

[whitt]

In my experience it's usually veteran players that finally give up due to a feeling of futility.

We don't have an exit interview process but I'm willing to wager that we lose far more new players, between learning curve and no sense of advancement then we do verteran players.

Except part of the difficulty transitioning players to Armageddon is to get them NOT to fixate on numerical progress.

Different strokes, different folks, but "the size of my wallet" remains a pretty standard measure of progress.  Also one of the few that is actually tangible.  If this were not the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

In a game where folks would rather have their chest of precious gems stolen then their favorite Kadian skirt, I hardly think amassing coin is a problem.

[Delirium]

Making the economy more complicated isn't going to solve the larger problems of supply, demand, pricing and vendor availability/capacity. Carts and horses and all that.

[Eyeball]

For those advocating bank notes, consider this: with everyone carrying notes of deposit around, money will accumulate even more than it does now, because it's not leaving the game (confiscated by Nenyuk) when someone dies.

[Armaddict]

We don't have an exit interview process but I'm willing to wager that we lose far more new players, between learning curve and no sense of advancement then we do verteran players.

I'd be willing to counter-wager that few of those leaving would say it was because of the game's economy or how coin was made or stored.  They might say 'It was hard to make money', but that is not the topic of discussion, because that is about newbie jobs, not about how money is accumulated in the game.  The 'this makes things hard for newbies' argument is frankly rather lost on me.  We aren't advertised as newbie friendly, and being newbie friendly in ways such as this is, frankly, counterproductive.  We can have a friendly, supportive, and helpful community without making the game easy.  I don't think anyone came here to play this game for a social atmosphere, they came because it was described as a harsh, unfriendly pure-roleplay experience.

Edit:  Apparently we -are- advertised as newbie friendly.  Whose terrible idea was that?  Hostile world, perma-death, promotion of cutthroat attitude and betrayal and capitalization on other's mistakes...newbie friendly?  Whuuuut?

Why not just...minimum deposits/withdrawals with a light tax on deposits, if we're talking about making banking less viable?

[BadSkeelz]

Newbie-friendly community, newbie-unfriendly game environment.

[Barzalene]

Throwing in my two cents that I favor the proposition someone mentioned earlier of having more ludicrously overpriced luxury items like metal rings which will effectively take money out of the game. Even if you try to resell said item to a merchant that merchant will likely only be able to pay for a very small fraction of it's value, just like resold luxury goods in real life, and will essentially be a form of conspicuous consumption for the ultra rich who don't need to be sitting on piles of obsidian like Tolkien dragons anyway. Also prevents fortunes from unrealistically going *poof* when a wealthy PC who had all their money in the bank dies.

I disagree with this. Only because I think that things like this should be a perk of being a noble or GHM ranking person.

There should be things that wealth alone cannot buy. Like metal. And bathtubs.

Maybe extend that to those who get to the point of having a real clan thing happening, new empires. You know.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While this has nothing to do with the actual topic, I always wished money was represented as gems. Gems have had value throughout history. Tiny gems, about the size of the head of a pin. There's no counterfeiting because nobody makes them. They are literally money if you dig them outta the ground.

Of course, conversely, you make finding gems much, much harder, so that when you see it used on some object in game, that's expensive shit. Gems big enough to actually use, nice shit.

[Clearsighted]

While this has nothing to do with the actual topic, I always wished money was represented as gems. Gems have had value throughout history. Tiny gems, about the size of the head of a pin. There's no counterfeiting because nobody makes them. They are literally money if you dig them outta the ground.

Of course, conversely, you make finding gems much, much harder, so that when you see it used on some object in game, that's expensive shit. Gems big enough to actually use, nice shit.

Interestingly enough, IRL, gems were the favored form of portable wealth among long-distance merchants, for whom even a bag of gold coins would be too heavy.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

>craft diamond

You could make that into about 2500 worth of monetary markers.

>look gems
   This handful of tiny gems is an eclectic mix of plain, unworked
gems, each roughly the size of a couple of fleas. There are bits of
ruby, diamonds, sapphires, and emeralds. Used as markers in exchanges
world-wide, they are too small to be used in any serious jewelry,
or as any sort of real adornment. It is known that emeralds stand for
one unit of worth, sapphires ten units, rubies fifty, and diamonds one
hundred.

[Desertman]

Aren't our gems just chips of obsidian glass?

[valeria]

Food spices were also extremely valuable, because they were so rare and exotic.  I'm sure their light weight didn't hurt either.

[Riev]

That tears it. I'm going to master-haggle diamonds all day every day for a RL year, until I have a pouch of diamonds worth twenty large. Then, I'll offer it to someone as a bribe, and they will laugh at me because "who gives a shit about diamonds come back when you find rubies"

[Eyeball]

How about public projects as a money soak? For example, allow Nenyuk to accept donations to a particular account for rebuilding the rock-lined road west of Allanak.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Sure. But I'd rather PCs did such a thing. Templars could create such projects, as well as Highborn and GMH family members.

[Armaddict]

How about public projects as a money soak? For example, allow Nenyuk to accept donations to a particular account for rebuilding the rock-lined road west of Allanak.

Having been a Tor Noble trying to build roads between the farming villages, I can tell you that unless new staff are much more willing than old staff...I was told it was completely not okay to try and do such things.

Which led to in game writing about stagnation and the need for expansion.  I would be -all for- this.  Perhaps now that we have builders, it would be more acceptable?

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

People are pretty good about keeping soldiers watered out of their own pockets in taverns.

[Taijan]

Phew, the economy sure is getting beat up a lot. Poor little fella. I'd like to devote a little time to sticking up for it, because I think it does some things very well.

For starters, it really drives home the point that Zalanthas doesn't run on a market economy, rendering supply and demand moot. Nearly all of the wealth is held by a very small minority - namely nobles and templars. GMHs rose to prominence by catering to their whims, and thus were granted a piece of the pie. At the top of everything are Those Two Guys that hang out in towers and pyramids while they run the Known World.  Just reading available documentation about Tektolnes, it can be inferred that he's a bit of a jerk and isn't really in touch with the common people.

Eyeball started off by saying that there isn't much that 'sid could be used for by the common people, and I think that's spot on. Rather than seeing it as a problem, I think it demonstrates the system perfectly.

Some posts have linked money with wealth, while others have pointed out that the two don't always go hand in hand - and that's spot on. What is wealth in Zalanthas?  I would say land, property, titles, slaves, guards... basically all of the things that the common character can't buy readily. That, I say, is intentional. The people who hold this definition of wealth don't want to give it up for anything, least of all some blunted and round chips of obsidian with a guy's face on it.

Going back to the "Tek's a dick" point, how awesome is that for a show of power?  Guy picks a common material, sticks his face on it, and says it has value. And the whole of society goes along with it.  It could even all be a joke to those in power.

"Look at all those poor dumb commoners trading bits of rock for the fruits of their labor!"

It's not a good economic system by any means, and it's hardly sustainable. Things rarely get done because they will cost actual wealth, and the people with it typically don't want to do anything to risk losing what they have or enabling the have-nots to get something of their own.

Making things worse is the fact that there is precious little actual value in the Known. The world was devastated in the past to a degree that it can't easily recover from, and the existence of things like sorcerers are making it worse every day, little by little. Outside the centers of civilization, there aren't enough resources out there to sustain growing populations, and much of the land is too drained to allow for agriculture and too fragile to make building anything upon it stable enough to last.

[BadSkeelz]

While I agree with all your points, Taijan, I'm concerned that crafting a setting where all PCs (even noble and templarate ones) are essentially powerless doomed nobodies leads to a really boring game.

[Delirium]

^ Or at least, depressing and frustrating. I get that you (collective you) need to find a compromise between "it's hard to update the world and make it react to powerful PCs" and "stick with the lowest common denominator so nobody's important!" But the latter makes the game feel less like a collaborative story between players and staff, and more like shouting in a vacuum.

Plus, a game is supposed to be fun to play, not a soul-sucking exercise in masochism. So, that's why I'm glad to see the (limited) ability to create minor merchant houses, though I really think that needs to be expanded to tribes (in and out of the city, human and elvish), as well as organizations outside of Allanak (Red Storm, Morin's).