There's a problem with money in the game

[HavokBlue]

Nenyuk limiting your deposit is pretty silly.

Nenyuk wants that indie hunter to deposit as much as he pleases because when he dies, it's theirs.



edit: appending my post from the last page to this one so it doesn't get lost

Some thoughts on money:

Money translates to power, to an extent. NPCs and VNPCs love money. PCs love money too, but they might not love you, so they might take your money, and then continue fucking you over. Money loses value as a tool for bribes and political influence when characters regularly do things like ask absurd amounts of coin in exchange for whatever. You know why the shadow artist system sucked? I can ask Templar Amos for a contract on Elf Talia, and if Amos doesn't like me, he decides that contract is going to cost me 20,000 coins. At this point, it doesn't matter if I have 80,000 coins in my lockbox and another 20,000 in my bank account, and the highest passive income of any PC in the game, because I'm not going to pay Templar Amos 20,000 coins to kill an elf.

Thus, my coin holds little value because I cannot use it in a valuable manner. I could use my coin to buy influence or bribe a favor out of an NPC templar by working with staff! I had a PC do this once. The Templar took my money and then let the person I'd asked them to apprehend go with a pat on the back. Okay, so now I can't use my money as an indirect weapon and I can't use my money as a bribery tool, so the value of my money has decreased again.

I don't think money becomes meaningless past a certain point, but it loses a lot of value. With the exception of funding minor merchant house ventures or paying for things as necessitated by whatever plot project you're pursuing with staff... It doesn't matter if you have 10,000 coins or 100,000.

I know that staff have discussed making sure Templar Malik and Noble Hardnose have to secure funding for whatever big project they're planning this month, for example, and I'm curious if this is being done in Allanak now that Tuluk has poofed. I think that creating a larger need for money at upper levels of the PC hierarchy goes a long way toward increasing the perceived value of money overall.

[wizturbo]

Which means most common characters just won't care. Amos is in a clan, he has his gear from Salarr, he has his food and swill, why should he care if someone offers him 1000 'sid?

I disagree.  Commoners should care about money, because it buys pleasures.  That's the one thing available to them without politics.    You can buy whores, spice, booze, better clothing, better accommodations, bribe some people to get things you want...quality of life improvements come with sid for commoners.  The problem is these virtual things are not represented in-game very well right now.  Spice is not habit forming unless the player enforces it, the urge for whores is just virtual, any food makes your hunger echos go away so why eat the ginka fruit, and the really nice clothes are all silks anyway which are outside their social class. 

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't really find there to be a problem with the value of 'sids, there's plenty to do with money. I wouldn't mind if banks had limits or high tax-rates to stop commoners from amassing huge amounts of coins though.

[Asmoth]

I don't really find there to be a problem with the value of 'sids, there's plenty to do with money. I wouldn't mind if banks had limits or high tax-rates to stop commoners from amassing huge amounts of coins though.

I would rather see sid harder to get (lowering salt payouts, lowering sid buying prices) than to see folks who do it well to be penalized.

I only played one sponsored role in my life and it was a Kadian and I had more money then I knew what to do with in my Kadius account.

So if nobles or GMH members are poor, shit has changed.

[BadSkeelz]

Nenyuk limiting your deposit is pretty silly.

Nenyuk wants that indie hunter to deposit as much as he pleases because when he dies, it's theirs.

What Nenyuk wants and what the Trade Ministry of Allanak want are not necessarily going to be  the same. Nenyuk wants all your money, yes. The Templarate wants to keep in power. Since money is (to an extent) power, it is in the Templarate's interest to keep commoners poor. As Nenyuk holds wealth for everyone, it behooves the Templarate to force Nenyuk to help maintain the current wealth distribution. Nenyuk, not wanting to be locked out of one of the biggest markets in the Known, cooperates because getting some of the money is better than getting none of the money.




Anyone who can't think of things to do with their money should play a warrior/thug for three RL years, on a measly salary, who had the equipment he really needed within the first three months. You'll find ways to make money, and things to spend it on. Not stuff you need, just stuff you want.

[HavokBlue]

Nobles and templars who cause too much trouble for Nenyuk will suddenly find their bank accounts experiencing financial difficulties.

[BadSkeelz]

Blues and Juniors, sure.

Reds and Blacks? No. Nenyuk's essentially a contractor of the Allanaki State. They handle the money, but Allanak mints the money and pays the army. Its the VNPC Templars who would dictate this policy to the VNPC Nenyuki family. This is high level metaplot economics, not something PCs actually have a hand in.

[hyzhenhok]

Nenyuk limiting your deposit is pretty silly.

Nenyuk wants that indie hunter to deposit as much as he pleases because when he dies, it's theirs.

Sure, if we assume Nenyuk exists as nothing except the magickal lockbox that it currently exclusively represented by in-game.

There are plenty of economic and political reasons why Nenyuk might not want to give every living soul in Zalanthas a free, unlimited, on-demand deposit account. Maybe Salarr and Kadius have an agreement with Nenyuk to hamper indie hunters and merchants. Maybe the Templarate has an agreement with Nenyuk to combat criminal activity and control foreigners. Maybe inflation is a serious concern, and discouraging commoners from accumulating wealth is more valuable than simply acquiring a portion of that wealth. (And no, dead indie hunters are not likely a significant portion of Nenyuk's income. Player population ≠ vnpc population and all that jazz.)

Arguing Nenyuk is an illuminati banking organization that secretly controls the world and is more powerful than any other entity just so we can ICly justify dung scrapers with 100,000 sid in the kitty? That's what I call silly.

[HavokBlue]

The inner workings of Nenyuk are not really something we can delve into on the GDB but when you consider that the any Great Merchant House has vastly more money than the highborn and Nenyuk manages all that money in both cities, they're not just pushovers who count your coins for you. Their biggest opponents in either city state are going to be Kassigarh and Valika respectively, and even those houses are going to operate as carefully as they can in regards to Nenyuk.

[hyzhenhok]

The inner workings of Nenyuk are not really something we can delve into on the GDB but when you consider that the any Great Merchant House has vastly more money than the highborn and Nenyuk manages all that money in both cities, they're not just pushovers who count your coins for you. Their biggest opponents in either city state are going to be Kassigarh and Valika respectively, and even those houses are going to operate as carefully as they can in regards to Nenyuk.

Yes, but this is all extremely vague and virtual. Frankly, the "Nenyuk takes all the commoners' money because they keep it when the commoners die" is a shallow story made to justify the current workings of banking & money within the game. If/when the banking system is altered, there's no reason it could not be retconned or clarified.

[Tetra]

The inner workings of Nenyuk are not really something we can delve into on the GDB but when you consider that the any Great Merchant House has vastly more money than the highborn and Nenyuk manages all that money in both cities, they're not just pushovers who count your coins for you. Their biggest opponents in either city state are going to be Kassigarh and Valika respectively, and even those houses are going to operate as carefully as they can in regards to Nenyuk.

Yes, but this is all extremely vague and virtual. Frankly, the "Nenyuk takes all the commoners' money because they keep it when the commoners die" is a shallow story made to justify the current workings of banking & money within the game. If/when the banking system is altered, there's no reason it could not be retconned or clarified.

Saying Nenyuk keeps all te money in the accounts of dead commoners isn't shallow, or a story.  It's exactly what happens.

[Lizzie]

If you have "too much" coin and hang out in the Gaj, well you realize your dainty slippers are now ruined and you have to buy another pair right? And that breed who puked one seat over from you - that puke surely splattered at least a little bit, and now you need to replace your cloak. Ale all over your lovely leather gloves -

Or you could invest by buying tokens from PCs who go salting, and trade with gobbledigook for cleaning liquid - which you could use virtually on all those virtual puke-stains that don't get coded every time you sit at the bar - and then junk a fresh keg once every RL week.

There are lots of things you -could- do with "disposable income." If you choose not to do those things, then it's on you, not on the game coders to change the code.

[wizturbo]

Saying Nenyuk keeps all te money in the accounts of dead commoners isn't shallow, or a story.  It's exactly what happens.

And frankly, is a drop in the bucket.  The distribution of wealth is absurdly skewed towards the Merchant Houses and the Nobility.  Their bank accounts don't disappear when a noble or merchant dies.  If I were to fathom a guess, I'd say the entire commoner bank accounts of both city's probably make up less than 5-10% of Nenyuk's total holdings.  Sure, they profit when Joe Grebber dies, but they make much more money on their real estate holdings and loans.  Plus, for all we know there are standing laws in the city-states that say that money becomes state property, and Nenyuk is just getting a cut for administration.

[Lizzie]

The inner workings of Nenyuk are not really something we can delve into on the GDB but when you consider that the any Great Merchant House has vastly more money than the highborn and Nenyuk manages all that money in both cities, they're not just pushovers who count your coins for you. Their biggest opponents in either city state are going to be Kassigarh and Valika respectively, and even those houses are going to operate as carefully as they can in regards to Nenyuk.

Yes, but this is all extremely vague and virtual. Frankly, the "Nenyuk takes all the commoners' money because they keep it when the commoners die" is a shallow story made to justify the current workings of banking & money within the game. If/when the banking system is altered, there's no reason it could not be retconned or clarified.

Saying Nenyuk keeps all te money in the accounts of dead commoners isn't shallow, or a story.  It's exactly what happens.

And yeah that -is- what happens. It's why they are arguably the wealthiest entity in the game. It used to be in the Nenyuk docs, back when Nenyuk was open as a playable clan.

[Tetra]

Saying Nenyuk keeps all te money in the accounts of dead commoners isn't shallow, or a story.  It's exactly what happens.

And frankly, is a drop in the bucket.  The distribution of wealth is absurdly skewed towards the Merchant Houses and the Nobility.  Their bank accounts don't disappear when a noble or merchant dies.  If I were to fathom a guess, I'd say the entire commoner bank accounts of both city's probably make up less than 5-10% of Nenyuk's total holdings.  Sure, they profit when Joe Grebber dies, but they make much more money on their real estate holdings and loans.

Nenyuk is a merchant House.  That's what I'm describing.

The point is that as the sole proprietor for financial holdings, every 'drop in the bucket', beyond renting properties etc. amounts to a _lot_ of money.

This is how real banks work as well.  They become wealthy through fees, interest, and taking the money that they hold on to.

[wizturbo]

It would be so much easier of PCs didn't treat every single shakedown like a pickpocket stealing their bone swords in the Gaj.  This is unacceptable!  I'm being repressed!  You'll have to kill me first!

Shockingly, I don't see this that often!  Most shakedowns I've done, when I've played characters in a position to do so, were pretty realistic.  I may have been lucky and only shaken down the good roleplayers though

[hyzhenhok]

The inner workings of Nenyuk are not really something we can delve into on the GDB but when you consider that the any Great Merchant House has vastly more money than the highborn and Nenyuk manages all that money in both cities, they're not just pushovers who count your coins for you. Their biggest opponents in either city state are going to be Kassigarh and Valika respectively, and even those houses are going to operate as carefully as they can in regards to Nenyuk.

Yes, but this is all extremely vague and virtual. Frankly, the "Nenyuk takes all the commoners' money because they keep it when the commoners die" is a shallow story made to justify the current workings of banking & money within the game. If/when the banking system is altered, there's no reason it could not be retconned or clarified.

Saying Nenyuk keeps all te money in the accounts of dead commoners isn't shallow, or a story.  It's exactly what happens.

That's not the point. The point is it isn't 2008 anymore. There's no reason it couldn't change, suitable IC and document changes alongside, if there were good reason for it to.

[Patuk]

Do I have to say this again?

Zalanthas is not America. Wealth isn't correlated to power.

Nenyuk might shut down a templar's bank account if he annoys them? Maybe. But do you have any idea how utterly stupid that sounds? Even a greenhorn teenage jock of a templar is also a sorcerous warlord with half a thousand trained soldiers at his disposal, not to mention supplies and utilities. There is not a single thing a templar needs Nenyuk for, with them having access to the city's funds and people working for them. They can store their heaps of coin in a shed in their quarter and have a pair of stooge soldiers look after it every day of the year without breaking a sweat. Nenyuk has nothing to offer to a self-sufficient state like Allanak. If it annoys one templar too many, it takes two templars and their soldiers to wipe out every Nenyuki in Allanak before the pair should announce that banking in Allanak can now be done by this other family they found.

Obviously, a single templar isn't as influential as Nenyuk is. But even then, don't proclaim that it has much to offer individual templars, or that templars shaking down people's bank accounts is going to provoke a reaction. In Zalanthas, money is nothing at all next to the status and military power of the city's elite.

[wizturbo]

I'd love to play a Nenyuki family member.  Not as a real estate agent, but as a Zalanthian banker.   Dream role, but would require a lot of staff support to be realistic...which is probably why Nenyuk is closed to players.

As for Patuk's comments above...some if it is true, but some of it probably isn't.   It has massive indirect power.  The epitome of behind the scenes power.

[bcw81]

I'd love to play a Nenyuki family member.  Not as a real estate agent, but as a Zalanthian banker.   Dream role, but would require a lot of staff support to be realistic...which is probably why Nenyuk is closed to players.

You could try to play a Kassigarh nob- Ohwait.

[wizturbo]

You could try to play a Kassigarh nob- Ohwait.

Naw, noble houses wouldn't be as raw as a Nenyuk family member.  I like the idea of having more limited resources

[Rhyden]

There's a couple problems with Arm's economy? I hadn't even noticed.

[ghostymudy]

Snip

Realised how pointless posting here is and that I'm supertired anyway.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm with Patuk. Money is a part of power, but not the main part.

Nenyuk's a private contractor of the Allanaki state, handling matters (housing, banking, storage) that the Templarate cannot be arsed to do on their own. It operates at the Templarate's pleasure. It would be economically disruptive to axe Nenyuk and let another house take in, but not impossible.

I view Nenyuk as an analogue to medieval proto-banks like the Jewish communities and the Knights Templar - independent, autonomous, and wealthy (or at least perceived to be), but only so long as the state finds them convenient. On several occasions nobles would cancel all the debts held by Jews and expel them as a means of placating a riotous populace. The Knights Templar were likewise destroyed when, after losing military relevance, the French state desired their holdings.

I'd be skeptical of Nenyuk documents presenting them as "more powerful than any highborne." Nenyuk was last open back in the Halastur and Sanvean days, right? Back then it sounds like any clan that a Staff took a particular interest in had documents prone to wankery. It would give them a grossly outsized position in the game world.

[Clearsighted]

I think the solution ultimately has to be in a coded tweaking of the economy, so that people can actually succeed, and feel the joy of succeeding, instead of artificially limiting themselves.

In a world like Zalanthas, where survival is at a premium, the most OOC and immersion-breaking thing you can do, is go out of your way to earn less sids, or leave sids on the ground. It's only OOC player concerns which encourage such behavior.