There's a problem with money in the game

[Eyeball]

Something tells me what you call the old state of things was caused by a high character attrition rate and less OOC knowledge about the game, not because nobles were different.

It wasn't that nobles were different, it was that they didn't even exist yet (as PCs). I remember the introduction of the first noble PC, Thomas Oash.

[Eyeball]

Even as a combat character, there's always better armor and better weapons to buy. There are also other skills you could spend money on. Hire an elf to teach you their language. Buy more mounts as extras. Go buy shitloads of food from somewhere so you can be sure you won't go hungry. Plan for emergencies. Have an emergency fund built. Bribe some guards for a quick escape from a city should you need one at some point. Buy lots of alcohol/spice and store it away because usually items tend to have greater barter value then money does.

Sounds more like prudence than raw, powerful greed. Where is the outlet for greed?

[Desertman]

One of the main problems I see with money is that it has become more of a social construct and less of a material construct, which is ironic, since money is in essence the representation of every material construct in the game.

The reason for this? We have a full proof system in place that lets everyone from the richest merchant House family member to the poorest most pathetic street urchin stash away their money with 100% security any time they want.

You want to see money and fortunes and wealth start to mean something in game and start actually moving plotlines and driving real conflicts....make banks give you tickets for the money you deposit, the same way stables do for mounts.

Right now it doesn't matter if someone has 200 coins or 200,000 coins...you will never get your hands on it. If they have a few hundred coins, or tens of thousands of coins...it means absolutely nothing to anyone who might go after them for it. Going after them or starting anything over it is a pointless practice in nothingness because even if you kill them, the money is not and never will be on the table in any way to be a driving force in the plotline.

So what happens? People who are too weak to realistically hold onto vast fortunes hold onto them anyways, because even if you could kill them, there is no reason to.

[BadSkeelz]

So what happens? People who are too weak to realistically hold onto vast fortunes hold onto them anyways, because even if you could kill them, there is no reason to.

You could always torture them in to giving it over. In fact, it'd probably be better to torture their loved ones so the mark can go withdraw his money.

[Desertman]

So what happens? People who are too weak to realistically hold onto vast fortunes hold onto them anyways, because even if you could kill them, there is no reason to.

You could always torture them in to giving it over. In fact, it'd probably be better to torture their loved ones so the mark can go withdraw his money.

Not a horrible idea for the extremely small percentage of the playerbase that would fit the criteria necessary for this to take place.

For the vast majority of everyone else in the game that doesn't have a family that isn't virtual and out of your reach and also has a vast fortune...my previous idea is still on the table.

[valeria]

It would be so much easier of PCs didn't treat every single shakedown like a pickpocket stealing their bone swords in the Gaj.  This is unacceptable!  I'm being repressed!  You'll have to kill me first!

[Supified]

In my view, there's a problem with money in the game. It just doesn't have utility beyond a certain point for the common character.

What can a commoner use it for? Food, water, gear, apartments. That's it. Any money beyond that is good for what? Can't buy a wagon, a house, property, a title, any slaves, gladiators to put in the arena, NPC guards, etc.

Sure, you can play a spice head, a drunk or a whore hound and blow it all that way, but you'll probably only want to do that for one or two of your characters, then move on to some other concept.

Bribes? Rewards? Prizes? How can they motivate a character who won't have any use for the coin? Instead of inspiring strenuous competition, the prospect of a monetary award leaves a lot of characters saying "meh". In order to restore the leverage of these RP tools, characters have to have a reason to badly want coins. They have to be able to do something with them.

Money and wealth is an extremely powerful motivator but this motivation is just lacking in-game. Let's put it back in somehow.

In theory you could acquire things with obscene wealth, you just can't do it without staff intervention.  The reasons are fair I think. Lets talk slaves.

You can't just account for the cost of buying the slave, you need to account for the cost of housing and feeding and making sure the slave stays a slave and doesn't become an ex slave.  So how do you do that? You need a place to house them, nenyuk isn't an option so you need a building.  Can't you buy a building? Well yes, probably, but once again staff are needed to account for the fact you are probably trying to buy one in a market that is in heavy competition (cities being walled in means places to put buildings or buy existing is extremely limited) Plus it is very likely there are taxes and upkeep associated with owning a building and suddenly that wealth you thought was obscene isn't as much as you though.  I would liken this to real life lottery winners.  Owning stuff that is expensive and upping you standard of living costs money.  A lot of money and unless you can have a steady obscene income, you probably can't actually pull these things off. So the barrier to entry to these absurd purchases is staff.  They help determine what is possible and what steps you'd need to actually pull it off.  Just about everything in your list could probably be accomplished with time and effort, but the expectation that I should be able to take fifty thousand coins and walk into the corner store and buy the whole building isn't taking the world as a whole into account.

[BadSkeelz]

Not a horrible idea for the extremely small percentage of the playerbase that would fit the criteria necessary for this to take place.

For the vast majority of everyone else in the game that doesn't have a family that isn't virtual and out of your reach and also has a vast fortune...my previous idea is still on the table.

Strip them naked and start junking their gear?

[Desertman]

Not a horrible idea for the extremely small percentage of the playerbase that would fit the criteria necessary for this to take place.

For the vast majority of everyone else in the game that doesn't have a family that isn't virtual and out of your reach and also has a vast fortune...my previous idea is still on the table.

Strip them naked and start junking their gear?

I'm not sure what this accomplishes? I'm not against it in theory, I just want more details because now I'm curious.

[BadSkeelz]

Well, you're trying to coerce them in to giving you the money, right? If they don't have a (VN)PC family to torture, I'd start with physical assets next. Expensive clothes, weapons, gear, mounts, etc. Of course if they have 200,000 sid in the bank that might not move them... Which is when you move on to toes. Then fingers. Then facial features. Then eyes. There's a lot to work with in the persuasive line.

[Desertman]

Well, you're trying to coerce them in to giving you the money, right? If they don't have a (VN)PC family to torture, I'd start with physical assets next. Expensive clothes, weapons, gear, mounts, etc. Of course if they have 200,000 sid in the bank that might not move them... Which is when you move on to toes. Then fingers. Then facial features. Then eyes. There's a lot to work with in the persuasive line.

contact Templar

psi Lord Templar, there is a man making me go to the bank right now to get money out for him. I will be meeting him at the intersection of Youarescrewednow Road and Whatabadcriminal Way to hand over the money. I will bring a bag with dung in it, please have your soldiers there to kill this guy. I will give you 3,000 coins instead of my 200,000 coin fortune.

Or....

You arrive at the bank. There are soldiers here. You are now safe. Tell the guy to screw off. Rebuy your gear. Put out hits on him. End of his criminal career.


Really the only way this works is if the victim chooses to willingly go along with being the victim. Otherwise, it's almost as easy as just walking away and yawning.

[Talia]

Which is when you move on to toes. Then fingers. Then facial features. Then eyes. There's a lot to work with in the persuasive line.

SHAMELESS ADVERT: Get your missing digits, eyes, ears, and nose today in the new expanded scar-givers at a change locdescs near you!

[BadSkeelz]

Something to consider, yes. Hopefully the mark gets the message that if you can reach them once, you can reach them again. Anyone trying to execute this plot should probably choose their marks carefully and be sure to pay off the Templarate in advance. Heck, the Templars might have some marks in mind.


Alternatively, RICH PCs UP AGAINST THE WALL

Which is when you move on to toes. Then fingers. Then facial features. Then eyes. There's a lot to work with in the persuasive line.

SHAMELESS ADVERT: Get your missing digits, eyes, ears, and nose today in the new expanded scar-givers at a change locdescs near you!

And to think you guys warned me that "cutting peoples hands off will probably make them store"

[hyzhenhok]

I think the question of how to rob someone whose wealth in the bank is irrelevant.

Regardless of whether you can rob them or not, a 'rinth rat or a poop digger or any other extremely low status commoner should not be able to slowly accumulate thousands upon thousands of coin like is currently possible. Either Nenyuk should outright refuse them at some point, or their account should be seized by the templarate for "suspicious activity." No returns allowed, of course. The city's case is against your money, which is guilty until proven innocent. Just kidding, it's just always guilty.

A big pile of money should be as much of a problem as it is a blessing for most characters. If you pick up a dead newbie's backpack and find 1000 'sid, it should lead to some interesting play questions and dilemmas for your character. Right now, you just head over to the bank and stash it and then keep playing like nothing happened.

[Desertman]

I'm not saying it's impossible to get to their vast fortunes in the banks if you want to go through a lot of effort in terms of bribing the right people ahead of time, picking out very specific people you think might go along with the plotline, and then hoping it all comes together.

It's possible.

However it is much more likely you are going to tell them to go to the bank and get their money out for you and they are going to walk away and tell a Templar to go kill you because you are a criminal.

With my system, every decision they make is made with the very real understanding that their fortune is very much on the table and is part of every consideration and decision they make.

Your system could possibly include their fortune in the equation, if everything goes well. My system ensures it's in the equation every time for every decision being made by everyone involved. I prefer my system.

[Asmoth]

It sounds like you are all jealous of my salting empire, I'm using some of my vast fortune to put hits out on you jealous jerks!

[Desertman]

It sounds like you are all jealous of my salting empire, I'm using some of my vast fortune to put hits out on you jealous jerks!

I peed on a salter once. I will do it again. 

[Narf]

What we really need is openly lazy Templars. Like reeeaaaaallly lazy. Like moves around on a pallequin, and only enforces the laws that are broken right in front of them (but even then, not if it's all the way across the room or some crazy shit like that).

*contact Templar;

*psi "help I'm being robbed"

*a foreign presence touches your mind

*The fatass Templar speaks into your mind "Are you being robbed within a block of the Ginka? Like a whole block away, or just you know... some of a block. I can't really see you right now, I'm going to assume this is happening far away..."

*you sense a presence withdraw from your mind.

[Desertman]

I would fall out of my chair laughing. Yes please.

[BadSkeelz]

Ah, found your system. Eh, I'm more in agreement with hzyhenhok, that Nenyuk should maybe limit the amount you can deposit, based on social status. Not entirely sold on tickets.

While tickets are easily stolen (at least until you get a proper belt, robe, and scan skill), I imagine players would just withdraw their fortunes in tiny increments so that each ticket is only worth, say, 50 sid and stuff their belts with them. Though maybe you'll see that as a benefit, since it means chunks of fortunes will be stolen and keep wealth moving around more actively?

It sounds like you are all jealous of my salting empire, I'm using some of my vast fortune to put hits out on you jealous jerks!

I'm more pitying than anything. Salting is the worst thing.

Do the salt flats stain your clothes? They should give you salt-crusted and salt-stained clothes, so people always know that you're a salter and treat you accordingly (badly and dismissively). Salt grebbing is waaaaaaaaaaaay down there on the social totem pole.

[nauta]

It sounds like you are all jealous of my salting empire, I'm using some of my vast fortune to put hits out on you jealous jerks!

I peed on a salter once. I will do it again. 

Which sort of sums up a point I wanted to make, but was having troubles articulating.  Yes, codedly people can accumulate coins through rote (boring) methods (although I think staff have tweaked things to make the reward and the risk fairly equal), but the real checks and balance is that sid ultimately will only get you so far in Zalanthas: wealth, as Patuk put it, isn't a matter of the size of your bank account, but rather its your social status - your connections - that counts: a grebber is still a grebber.

[Desertman]

Ah, found your system. Eh, I'm more in agreement with hzyhenhok, that Nenyuk should maybe limit the amount you can deposit, based on social status. Not entirely sold on tickets.

While tickets are easily stolen (at least until you get a proper belt, robe, and scan skill), I imagine players would just withdraw their fortunes in tiny increments so that each ticket is only worth, say, 50 sid and stuff their belts with them. Though maybe you'll see that as a benefit, since it means chunks of fortunes will be stolen and keep wealth moving around more actively?

People would do this to help deal with random pickpockets certainly...which makes perfect IC sense as well. Only a fool would use one Nenyuk voucher for all of their wealth.

That is far from the only consideration on the table. Raiders. Muggers. Killers. Organized crime groups that specifically target the wealthy. The multiple ticket pickpocket thing is at best the most minimal aspect to consider.

[BadSkeelz]

Weeeeeelll alright, it's worth considering.

Can we call them receipts or scrips or something, though? Too many tickets in the game as it is, especially leather ones.

[Desertman]

Weeeeeelll alright, it's worth considering.

Can we call them receipts or scrips or something, though? Too many tickets in the game as it is, especially leather ones.

A Nenyuk-stamped leather voucher

[HavokBlue]

Some thoughts on money:

Money translates to power, to an extent. NPCs and VNPCs love money. PCs love money too, but they might not love you, so they might take your money, and then continue fucking you over. Money loses value as a tool for bribes and political influence when characters regularly do things like ask absurd amounts of coin in exchange for whatever. You know why the shadow artist system sucked? I can ask Templar Amos for a contract on Elf Talia, and if Amos doesn't like me, he decides that contract is going to cost me 20,000 coins. At this point, it doesn't matter if I have 80,000 coins in my lockbox and another 20,000 in my bank account, and the highest passive income of any PC in the game, because I'm not going to pay Templar Amos 20,000 coins to kill an elf.

Thus, my coin holds little value because I cannot use it in a valuable manner. I could use my coin to buy influence or bribe a favor out of an NPC templar by working with staff! I had a PC do this once. The Templar took my money and then let the person I'd asked them to apprehend go with a pat on the back. Okay, so now I can't use my money as an indirect weapon and I can't use my money as a bribery tool, so the value of my money has decreased again.

I don't think money becomes meaningless past a certain point, but it loses a lot of value. With the exception of funding minor merchant house ventures or paying for things as necessitated by whatever plot project you're pursuing with staff... It doesn't matter if you have 10,000 coins or 100,000.

I know that staff have discussed making sure Templar Malik and Noble Hardnose have to secure funding for whatever big project they're planning this month, for example, and I'm curious if this is being done in Allanak now that Tuluk has poofed. I think that creating a larger need for money at upper levels of the PC hierarchy goes a long way toward increasing the perceived value of money overall.