What if clans didn't give unlimited free food?

[Armaddict]

I don't mean to single you out, but this response embodies almost everything I find insufferable about a certain subset of the Armageddon player culture. Instead of actually contributing anything of worth, pretend that you are, by harvesting meat no one will ever use or require. I guess there are some people out there that might get a kick out of that - but I find that both sad and boring. I don't even consider it good RP. It's just delusional.

And yet you did single him out.  It's not 'insufferable' to try and resist being forced into activities that may or may not be his cup of tea.  You're of a mind that you want the struggle for survival to come first and foremost, so you want everyone to be IC'ly concerned about keeping the IC meals coming.  Which is fine.

He doesn't want every job he joins to start assigning him with a schedule of food hunting, which will more than likely turn into hunting deaths (yes, prior to cook npc's, you died often just to random things while hunting for food), just because you are of the mind that the supply of food by clans is detracting from the RP you want.  Which is fine.

It's two perspectives, basically about emphasis on which parts of the game are enjoyable to people.  And you don't have to consider it good RP, but you do have to consider that the delusion isn't his, it's yours, since you decided to use the word, and it's less insulting than you intended since delusion requires true belief, which you also seem to have.  Or, we could settle on the happy medium and realize neither of them are delusional, just different.

[MeTekillot]

I have not been swayed by any of Clearsighted's arguments. Perhaps I blindly follow the automated food camp. I'd like staff to give us different ways to change the world with what we have now, instead of taking away what we have now and saying we're changing the world by keeping our clanmates fed by bashing in the brains of the nearest scrab.

[RogueGunslinger]

In the end, I've yet to see a single compelling reason (I don't think a dehydrating Runner counts. If anything, that's a perk) why players shouldn't be able to take responsibility of their own food and water situation (the latter, I can see remaining a 'privilege'). It gives them more stuff to do.

What if they're incapable of doing it though? If someone is playing off-peak, there is no food or water, and nobody who can get it for them. What do they do? Log off.

Like I said before. I already assume that water will stay the way it is. It's too enshrined. Even though I long for the days when free water was for nobles only. So let's step away from that straw man. Food is MUCH easier than water to get.

I find it incredibly laughable, that any of the current clans that are open for business, would ever be in the situation of a starving newbie. (And since when has Arm EVER cared about starving newbies?) All it takes is 500 sids and a trip to the grocer by one of the aides, or even a semi-active couple of hunters, to keep a reasonably sized clan stocked. It wouldn't surprise me if people were going hungry in Havok's clan, even with 50000+ sids sitting around in various pockets and accounts (a conservative estimate, all together), cause they're saving it up for their next Salarri order.

If that's not working, then it's probably so overpopulated and poorly run, that the game will be done a favor if the stress causes some to leave and seek employment elsewhere, or else to cut away the dead chaff.

Maybe that's why some are so wedded to the idea of free food. It allows them to perpetuate poorly run clans by covering up the weaknesses that having a couple legitimately active and dedicated players would prevent. I'd rather things took a more Darwinian turn. There's so few open clans now, that I can't imagine it getting into this point anyhow. I'm not surprised Tuluki noble clans would have collapsed without it.

Heh, I feel like you're not in a mood to discuss things, but instead just argue blindly against anyone who disagrees with you. In the quote you used of me I said "food and water." not just water. Calling the whole point within a straw-man and waving it off without addressing it.  And then you waved away my question about players with nobody around entirely by saying you think it's laughable that a newbie would ever be starving. But that's the thing. I never said they'd be starving. I just said they'd probably log out if they were hungry and nobody was on to get them food. You say that would never happen, but I've seen a few instances where no food was around in the AoD and nobody was around to get it at the time(even though there's more than enough people to be stockpiling it for ages if need be). This forces people to log off and only stick around when other people have re-stocked it. How is that adding anything to the game?

If people have a hard time stocking the AoD with food and water, when all they have to do is go to a free food/water vendor across the town. Why don't you think it will be possible for other clans to have the same problem, when they have a much harder job of going out into the dangerous wilds and hunting down animals just for 2 pieces of meat.

I agree, but only for clans who normally have pc hunters. So mostly the GMH's?

If there are no pc hunters in one of these clans (which seems rare) it would give the leaders incentive to bring on new hunters, or hire experienced ones to feed their crafters, etc.

Could give clans more to do as a group, while experiencing that basic survival instinct that sometimes seems lacking in said clans. And if food and water begins to run out, then you have conflict while fighting over resources.

And if it's still too easy to live off food/water if implemented, we can talk about rot code...

Alright. So now you have a bunch of hunters, hunting to feed people. What has changed? They were already hunting for skins/hides/shells, most hunters I've known want to be hunting as much as possible to grind up their skills. They were already stockpiling the meat. If anything all you're changing is the frequency with which hunters -have- to hunt for the benefit of others in the clan instead of for themselves. What exactly is that adding to the game? Better yet, how much of a disincentive is that adding to clans, which many people already believe to be less attractive than being an Indy.

[Clearsighted]

I don't mean to single you out, but this response embodies almost everything I find insufferable about a certain subset of the Armageddon player culture. Instead of actually contributing anything of worth, pretend that you are, by harvesting meat no one will ever use or require. I guess there are some people out there that might get a kick out of that - but I find that both sad and boring. I don't even consider it good RP. It's just delusional.

And yet you did single him out.  It's not 'insufferable' to try and resist being forced into activities that may or may not be his cup of tea.  You're of a mind that you want the struggle for survival to come first and foremost, so you want everyone to be IC'ly concerned about keeping the IC meals coming.  Which is fine.

He doesn't want every job he joins to start assigning him with a schedule of food hunting, which will more than likely turn into hunting deaths (yes, prior to cook npc's, you died often just to random things while hunting for food), just because you are of the mind that the supply of food by clans is detracting from the RP you want.  Which is fine.

It's two perspectives, basically about emphasis on which parts of the game are enjoyable to people.  And you don't have to consider it good RP, but you do have to consider that the delusion isn't his, it's yours, since you decided to use the word, and it's less insulting than you intended since delusion requires true belief, which you also seem to have.  Or, we could settle on the happy medium and realize neither of them are delusional, just different.

I don't see your point, Arm. If he doesn't want to be assigned to food hunting, then he should probably not join clans as a hunter. There would be other clans, such as the militia or byn, or joining a GMH as something besides a hunter, that would see him excused from such a responsibility.

If anything, it's a red herring.

But I won't settle on us being equally delusional. There is a profound difference to having an actual job in the game world that people actually benefit from and seek out. Getting meat is the most basic way that theoretically, an outdoors character can make themselves useful or needed by someone else. But it's also been completely 'roboticized', which has an effect on Hunter RP, what robotics has on the American factory worker.

There are precious few 'blue collar' occupations in Armageddon that there is any real use for, outside dying on HRPTs now and then or being a sparring buddy. When you completely automate food and supplies (such as for getting fancy stuff loaded into the game) you just make everyone else superfluous.

That leaves you in a situation where agents, nobles, officers and such...THEY don't have to pretend they are contributing or making a difference. But evidently, the lesser ranks do have to pretend that what they do matters. Anything that the clan hunter might have to offer to the agent, noble or lieutenant, is effectively automated with or without them. But not the other way around.

That's what I took an issue with.

And again. It's not the worse thing in the world if clans were to have a natural cap based on their ability to sustain, instead of taking everyone until closed.

[Clearsighted]

In the end, I've yet to see a single compelling reason (I don't think a dehydrating Runner counts. If anything, that's a perk) why players shouldn't be able to take responsibility of their own food and water situation (the latter, I can see remaining a 'privilege'). It gives them more stuff to do.

What if they're incapable of doing it though? If someone is playing off-peak, there is no food or water, and nobody who can get it for them. What do they do? Log off.

Like I said before. I already assume that water will stay the way it is. It's too enshrined. Even though I long for the days when free water was for nobles only. So let's step away from that straw man. Food is MUCH easier than water to get.

I find it incredibly laughable, that any of the current clans that are open for business, would ever be in the situation of a starving newbie. (And since when has Arm EVER cared about starving newbies?) All it takes is 500 sids and a trip to the grocer by one of the aides, or even a semi-active couple of hunters, to keep a reasonably sized clan stocked. It wouldn't surprise me if people were going hungry in Havok's clan, even with 50000+ sids sitting around in various pockets and accounts (a conservative estimate, all together), cause they're saving it up for their next Salarri order.

If that's not working, then it's probably so overpopulated and poorly run, that the game will be done a favor if the stress causes some to leave and seek employment elsewhere, or else to cut away the dead chaff.

Maybe that's why some are so wedded to the idea of free food. It allows them to perpetuate poorly run clans by covering up the weaknesses that having a couple legitimately active and dedicated players would prevent. I'd rather things took a more Darwinian turn. There's so few open clans now, that I can't imagine it getting into this point anyhow. I'm not surprised Tuluki noble clans would have collapsed without it.

Heh, I feel like you're not in a mood to discuss things, but instead just argue blindly against anyone who disagrees with you. In the quote you used of me I said "food and water." not just water. Calling the whole point within a straw-man and waving it off without addressing it.  And then you waved away my question about players with nobody around entirely by saying you think it's laughable that a newbie would ever be starving. But that's the thing. I never said they'd be starving. I just said they'd probably log out if they were hungry and nobody was on to get them food. You say that would never happen, but I've seen a few instances where no food was around in the AoD and nobody was around to get it at the time(even though there's more than enough people to be stockpiling it for ages if need be). This forces people to log off and only stick around when other people have re-stocked it. How is that adding anything to the game?

If people have a hard time stocking the AoD with food and water, when all they have to do is go to a free food/water vendor across the town. Why don't you think it will be possible for other clans to have the same problem, when they have a much harder job of going out into the dangerous wilds and hunting down animals just for 2 pieces of meat.

I agree, but only for clans who normally have pc hunters. So mostly the GMH's?

If there are no pc hunters in one of these clans (which seems rare) it would give the leaders incentive to bring on new hunters, or hire experienced ones to feed their crafters, etc.

Could give clans more to do as a group, while experiencing that basic survival instinct that sometimes seems lacking in said clans. And if food and water begins to run out, then you have conflict while fighting over resources.

And if it's still too easy to live off food/water if implemented, we can talk about rot code...

Alright. So now you have a bunch of hunters, hunting to feed people. What has changed? They were already hunting for skins/hides/shells, most hunters I've known want to be hunting as much as possible to grind up their skills. They were already stockpiling the meat. If anything all you're changing is the frequency with which hunters -have- to hunt for the benefit of others in the clan instead of for themselves. What exactly is that adding to the game?

I don't even know what you're referring to, in half of the above, RGS. I'm not 'blindly' arguing anything. No more than you are. I'd caution against projecting anything about my mood. At least I'm coming up with better reasons than 'pretending to contribute' or 'a starving newbie', while ignoring someone that newbish should be in a clan I already said should keep its free food.

My assertion is that any reasonably active clan, that isn't grossly overpopulated, should have no difficulty whatsoever keeping full larders. There is more than enough characters seeking work, and more than enough sids to pay the grocers if that fails.

That's why I find the idea of some hungry newbie logging in, seeing an empty larder and logging off to be so incredibly unlikely. I admit that I am dismissing it, because I don't think it would happen often enough to be a meaningful point to stand on its own. Not with the clans being in their current state of concentration.

Do you remember logging into the game as a newbie and often logging off cause you were hungry? They should be in the Byn or Militia then, which I've already said, should keep their gruel.

As for your answer to Rhyden...What's changed is that what they're doing actually serves a purpose.

[Clearsighted]

I have not been swayed by any of Clearsighted's arguments. Perhaps I blindly follow the automated food camp. I'd like staff to give us different ways to change the world with what we have now, instead of taking away what we have now and saying we're changing the world by keeping our clanmates fed by bashing in the brains of the nearest scrab.

Just out of curiosity, what other ways would you like staffers to give you? Because as I've described above, the automated food situation, when 'food' is essentially the only needed, essential commodity in the game, is why so many lower ranking hunters, aides and crafters lead relatively meaningless existences. Beyond what they can gin up for themselves as make believe.

Which again, would be more defensible an option, if the upper ranks didn't have to similarly rely on their imagination to meaningfully contribute. Perhaps bashing scrabs in is beneath you. But it's not to a lot of people.

Would one of these potential alternative ways involve the staff taking on a larger workload than unloading an NPC?

[MeTekillot]

Yeah.

[Clearsighted]

Yeah.

Well go ahead and share, man.

[MeTekillot]

I can start a different thread if you like.

[Clearsighted]

I can start a different thread if you like.

I'm genuinely interested, so go with whatever you feel is best. I give you permission to derail this one. It's up to you.

[Armaddict]

It wasn't a red herring, clearsighted, it was addressing an issue that I do have with your method of argument where you seem to be trying to belittle someone as a 'warning' to those in the same camp as he is.  That he's 'delusional' for thinking this way.

As far as my contribution to the thread at hand, my statement before pointed to that things have been done the way you present before, and a few precious clans ended up getting a cook, which was -really- cool, particularly for my noble guards and such that had no way of securing food outside of either breaking their rules or paying for things themselves (to their own detriment).  That spread across the game as a perk of being in a clan, which remains today, but as noted...clans are already suffering because that's not such a huge perk anymore.

The wilderness was tamed so that hunting became less dangerous than it used to be, when some of the revisions to wilderness zoning made it so that there was relatively 'safe' hunting.  Not to zoning, I suppose, but how dangerous npcs wandered through those zones.  I didn't shoot down your idea at all, I actually tried to say that it was just as viable because it -has- been done this way before.  I think it was taken out because it became a hassle to people, including staff.  'We're out of food again.' 'What?!  I just...stocked the shit out of that cupboard two weeks ago, I don't want to go buy a bunch more food, I have more enjoyable things in the game I'd rather be doing!'

There's actually a couple minor things that have huge differences between the time then and the time now, such as:  It's relatively easy to find company as an indie now.  Before, it was a lot harder to trust people to hunt with...there was the actual concern that someone was luring you outside the gates, and would attack you instead of the beast that came your way.  Merchant house hunting groups were groups you could trust when you joined up, so people flocked to them for protection.  The general aversion to what is referred to as 'meaningless pk' has resulted in a more cooperative playerbase and less of a need for 'honest business-oriented hunters' to band up with.  But that's a derail for another time.

The point is...yes, this can work, economically speaking.  No, I don't think it completely changes everything so much as restores the need for hunters, but I do not think it restores the need for hunters to join houses, which will likely end up problematic and your supply cap that you talk about might be lower than you think it is.

Edited to add:  I.e. Yes, it works and has worked this way, but yes, it was also often a pain in the ass to play around.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't even know what you're referring to, in half of the above, RGS. I'm not 'blindly' arguing anything. No more than you are. I'd caution against projecting anything about my mood. At least I'm coming up with better reasons than 'pretending to contribute' or 'a starving newbie', while ignoring someone that newbish should be in a clan I already said should keep its free food.

My assertion is that any reasonably active clan, that isn't grossly overpopulated, should have no difficulty whatsoever keeping full larders. There is more than enough characters seeking work, and more than enough sids to pay the grocers if that fails.

That's why I find the idea of some hungry newbie logging in, seeing an empty larder and logging off to be so incredibly unlikely. I admit that I am dismissing it, because I don't think it would happen often enough to be a meaningful point to stand on its own. Not with the clans being in their current state of concentration.

Okay, so you don't think it's a point worth addressing even though I said I've seen it happen in a clan that currently has the model you want for more. That's fine, maybe it doesn't happen enough for you to worry about(even though we have no way of knowing how often it happens). I'll worry about it for the both of us.

Do you remember logging into the game as a newbie and often logging off cause you were hungry? They should be in the Byn or Militia then, which I've already said, should keep their gruel.

As for your answer to Rhyden...What's changed is that what they're doing actually serves a purpose.

You say it adds purpose but there was already a purpose, a much more fun purpose that doesn't fuck with playability. Collecting shells/hides for crafters to use, skilling up, or even just the act of killing NPC's itself can be fun and exciting. Forcing hunters to stockpile extra food and make extra hunting trips beyond what they're already doing? It enforces some realism by taking what players were already doing for fun and making it into a job(players don't want jobs, they want to play the game). All just so they can hold the lives of other clan-mates in their hands by making them the sole food/water providers in order to add a little realism at the sake of playability.

[Taven]

Nobles always need to have something for their people to do. It shocks me you don't realize this. Nobles should have no trouble giving an aide some sids every RL week or so, to go buy a ton of food and stock the larder with it. There's only a few noble houses open now. There's going to be some noble around, and it gives them something to have their F-me aide do. Conversely, it gives them a good reason to offer some exorbitant salary to hire a good hunter or two away from the merchant clans. This would make noble houses a natural destination. A player's career could easily span the Byn, to a merchant house, to a noble house. Nobles would be more picky, and the added pickiness would actually increase the desirability of the roles. Currently, noble houses often struggle to differentiate themselves from other organizations

I don't know what noble houses you've been playing around. Generally, I'd like to think that nobles have better things to do then send off their aides to routinely buy a bunch of food. Things like making contacts, plotting ways to foil their opponents in the political arena, setting up a spy network, planning awesome RPTs, and so on. The idea that a noble has no better plot to give then food-collecting is silly.

That said, a plot revolving around getting special food items is different. A famous noble successfully did this, and still had a clan cook! Why? Because they role-played having someone who just loved all sorts of food, especially rare delicacies. They hired hunters like you describe, and many of their aides were cooks. They even hired people just to cook for them, and make unusual or unique dishes. But that was a fun, focused experience. It wasn't sending someone down to buy food because they had to, it was taking the concept of food to a whole new level.

Just out of curiosity, what other ways would you like staffers to give you? Because as I've described above, the automated food situation, when 'food' is essentially the only needed, essential commodity in the game, is why so many lower ranking hunters, aides and crafters lead relatively meaningless existences. Beyond what they can gin up for themselves as make believe.

Which again, would be more defensible an option, if the upper ranks didn't have to similarly rely on their imagination to meaningfully contribute. Perhaps bashing scrabs in is beneath you. But it's not to a lot of people.

I really don't understand why you feel that hunters, aides, and crafters have nothing to do if they don't have to go and get food and water. If their only value is to spam barter at the local food store (for the aides and crafters), then something has gone horribly wrong. Likewise, spam cooking is not all that interesting or engaging.

I can't comment on if hunters not finding a place to sell their food is actually an issue, but I've played PCs who were independent or who simply needed it who would buy it. So I guess from my perspective, that doesn't seem like a huge issue either. Maybe you have more experience there, though.

[RogueGunslinger]

I want to apologize for the snarky way my original posts came off, talking about your mood or whatever. I like that this idea is being discussed, and don't want Clearsighted to think he's being ganged up on or anything like that. It's a good topic of discussion.

[Clearsighted]

It wasn't a red herring, clearsighted, it was addressing an issue that I do have with your method of argument where you seem to be trying to belittle someone as a 'warning' to those in the same camp as he is.  That he's 'delusional' for thinking this way.

As far as my contribution to the thread at hand, my statement before pointed to that things have been done the way you present before, and a few precious clans ended up getting a cook, which was -really- cool, particularly for my noble guards and such that had no way of securing food outside of either breaking their rules or paying for things themselves (to their own detriment).  That spread across the game as a perk of being in a clan, which remains today, but as noted...clans are already suffering because that's not such a huge perk anymore.

The wilderness was tamed so that hunting became less dangerous than it used to be, when some of the revisions to wilderness zoning made it so that there was relatively 'safe' hunting.  Not to zoning, I suppose, but how dangerous npcs wandered through those zones.  I didn't shoot down your idea at all, I actually tried to say that it was just as viable because it -has- been done this way before.  I think it was taken out because it became a hassle to people, including staff.  'We're out of food again.' 'What?!  I just...stocked the shit out of that cupboard two weeks ago, I don't want to go buy a bunch more food, I have more enjoyable things in the game I'd rather be doing!'

There's actually a couple minor things that have huge differences between the time then and the time now, such as:  It's relatively easy to find company as an indie now.  Before, it was a lot harder to trust people to hunt with...there was the actual concern that someone was luring you outside the gates, and would attack you instead of the beast that came your way.  Merchant house hunting groups were groups you could trust when you joined up, so people flocked to them for protection.  The general aversion to what is referred to as 'meaningless pk' has resulted in a more cooperative playerbase and less of a need for 'honest business-oriented hunters' to band up with.  But that's a derail for another time.

The point is...yes, this can work, economically speaking.  No, I don't think it completely changes everything so much as restores the need for hunters, but I do not think it restores the need for hunters to join houses, which will likely end up problematic and your supply cap that you talk about might be lower than you think it is.

Fair and valid points, Armaddict. I wasn't exactly calling him delusional, though. Let me try and break it down to four essential points.

1) I think that given the hyper-concentration of clans at the moment, (which is more concentrated than it's been in the last decade) that the issues which made automated cooks a necessity for some clans (Halp, there's only 2-3 of us, and my Tuluki noble sponsor keeps storing!) are no longer as valid as they once were. Not when it essentially began as a stopgap measure to keep some noble houses afloat.

2) I can understand someone not wanting to be a hunter, or forced into a hunter role. There would still remain a wealth of options for them to join clans and not have to hunt. The only way I could see them being forced to hunt, would be if they joined a clan/tribe as a hunter. And that's just...something I guess they'd have to suck up. Them sucking it up is a lesser evil than hunters who don't have a real job to do.

3) Speaking of which...and this is where I apologize a bit. I have a kneejerk reaction to the 'be the change' type thinking, which really, is in many cases, so intellectually empty. I don't see a valid solution to the hunter quandary, to be 'pretending' I am contributing, when I'm really junking meat, since the meat bins are full. If that's the case, why even hunt at all? Why not just pretend I'm hunting? Why even leave the gates? Why do anything but keep myself fed, watered, and spar/mudsex all day long and -pretend- I'm doing what my actual in game job is? Because that's what Havoc's suggestion largely amounted to. At that point, I'm basically not playing a survival RPI anymore, I'm playing a MUSH or something. Isn't that sort've what Tuluk turned into?

I think this is a valid concern.

4) What makes #3 more onerous, is that it's not a two-way street. The higher ranks, such as agents and nobles, that would have to rely on you, don't actually need you. You're just a charity case, or someone they have to make busywork for, or whatever. In the end, you're dead weight. The health and sustenance of the clan does not even remotely rest on your shoulders. Meanwhile...the agent/noble/officer - they live rich and complex lives of responsibility and actual meaningful decisions. I've been on both sides of the fence. It's often been a pain in the ass to keep people occupied/entertained, because I didn't really need them for anything, and I could hire as many people as I wanted, and it wouldn't matter if they were dead weight, or were a good fit with the clan. They brought precious little and took away less.

---

Now. If someone can look at any of the above points, and conclusively assert that it's completely baseless or false, then so be it.  I think that would be hard to do, if someone were entirely honest with themselves. But what I feel are the underlying realities embodied in these four points, is why I considered 'being the change' to be a delusional prospect to consider. Not that Havoc himself was necessarily delusional. But he was asking someone else to be. A fine line, but an important one. I was not attacking him personally. But at the same time, I deeply disagree with his philosophy, as to what creates a healthier long-term playing experience.

And I say this while acknowledging that at one point, automated cooks did seem to have some necessity, when there were twice as many clans and less active players, and lots of turnover (In Tuluk especially, and among noble houses with like 1-2 people).

[Clearsighted]

I want to apologize for the snarky way my original posts came off, talking about your mood or whatever. I like that this idea is being discussed, and don't want Clearsighted to think he's being ganged up on or anything like that. It's a good topic of discussion.

It's all good. And I really don't mind multiple people disagreeing with me. I especially don't mind if an old vet like you does. I just want to respond to each one.

I did have a bitchy moment at Havoc, but it's because he's Tuluki.

I think I've played too many hunters in GMHs that had to junk too much meat and shells, from all the bins and storehouses always being stuffed, and over time, that has poisoned me against anything automated.

Eventually, it gets a bit stressful, knowing that it's not realistic to leave all this crap on the sands, but there's nothing to do with it. But what else would my ranger/hunter/patroller do? Just not leave the gates? Not play the game? I play Arm cause I enjoy riding in the wastes. It always would have felt nice, if I could actually bring that meat back, and have it used. I enjoyed doing that in clans which didn't have automated cooks, and I always found the dynamic much more tight-knit.

I remember when clans having their own viv was a big deal.

[Clearsighted]

Nobles always need to have something for their people to do. It shocks me you don't realize this. Nobles should have no trouble giving an aide some sids every RL week or so, to go buy a ton of food and stock the larder with it. There's only a few noble houses open now. There's going to be some noble around, and it gives them something to have their F-me aide do. Conversely, it gives them a good reason to offer some exorbitant salary to hire a good hunter or two away from the merchant clans. This would make noble houses a natural destination. A player's career could easily span the Byn, to a merchant house, to a noble house. Nobles would be more picky, and the added pickiness would actually increase the desirability of the roles. Currently, noble houses often struggle to differentiate themselves from other organizations

I don't know what noble houses you've been playing around. Generally, I'd like to think that nobles have better things to do then send off their aides to routinely buy a bunch of food. Things like making contacts, plotting ways to foil their opponents in the political arena, setting up a spy network, planning awesome RPTs, and so on. The idea that a noble has no better plot to give then food-collecting is silly.

That said, a plot revolving around getting special food items is different. A famous noble successfully did this, and still had a clan cook! Why? Because they role-played having someone who just loved all sorts of food, especially rare delicacies. They hired hunters like you describe, and many of their aides were cooks. They even hired people just to cook for them, and make unusual or unique dishes. But that was a fun, focused experience. It wasn't sending someone down to buy food because they had to, it was taking the concept of food to a whole new level.

Just out of curiosity, what other ways would you like staffers to give you? Because as I've described above, the automated food situation, when 'food' is essentially the only needed, essential commodity in the game, is why so many lower ranking hunters, aides and crafters lead relatively meaningless existences. Beyond what they can gin up for themselves as make believe.

Which again, would be more defensible an option, if the upper ranks didn't have to similarly rely on their imagination to meaningfully contribute. Perhaps bashing scrabs in is beneath you. But it's not to a lot of people.

I really don't understand why you feel that hunters, aides, and crafters have nothing to do if they don't have to go and get food and water. If their only value is to spam barter at the local food store (for the aides and crafters), then something has gone horribly wrong. Likewise, spam cooking is not all that interesting or engaging.

I can't comment on if hunters not finding a place to sell their food is actually an issue, but I've played PCs who were independent or who simply needed it who would buy it. So I guess from my perspective, that doesn't seem like a huge issue either. Maybe you have more experience there, though.

All right. I guess no one here has ever played a leadership role in this game, where they often struggled to give their subordinates meaningful jobs instead of just busy makework.

When I was a leader, I used to make up to the hunters that the merchants sent in a special order, and we needed so and so, and I'd send them all around the world hunting, grebbing and such. Then when they brought it back, I'd go and quietly junk it, and tell them they did a great job. They at least, were thrilled.

I personally knew the merchants could request anything they liked, and have it loaded, regardless of what we brought in. But I didn't let the hunters know that. I admit, the charade left me feeling a bit hollow, and it did over time, sap my desire to play. It did make me turn more towards PvP scenarios, because at least antagonism with another player meant something.

Everyone was always thrilled to have something substantial and hands on to do. That's the biggest disconnect I'm feeling in this thread, that more people don't realize how important these little things are. Your average f-me aide would flip over having the responsibility of buying food for a noble house, with a sid allowance to ensure it stayed stocked. That would open a lot of RP for her, like seeking out indy hunters, or bakers/cooks.

Imagine a world where a noble aide has anything to do with an indy hunter besides hump them? Madness.

[Armaddict]

I'll go over things more in detail, but something I'd like a response to, in terms of your #4...

Couldn't that also be argued in the other direction?  If you remember the Berlian/Lius era of Kadius, remember how when they died, it hurt the clan so deeply that it quickly faded?  Do you consider it correct modeling, for the blue collar to become -so- important that one or two people make or break the clan, despite their blue collar position?  They're a great merchant house.  In the grand scheme of things, you -aren't- supposed to matter -that- much.

[Clearsighted]

I'll go over things more in detail, but something I'd like a response to, in terms of your #4...

Couldn't that also be argued in the other direction?  If you remember the Berlian/Lius era of Kadius, remember how when they died, it hurt the clan so deeply that it quickly faded?  Do you consider it correct modeling, for the blue collar to become -so- important that one or two people make or break the clan, despite their blue collar position?  They're a great merchant house.  In the grand scheme of things, you -aren't- supposed to matter -that- much.

It's a risk I'm willing to take.

But I honestly don't think it'd work out like that. If anything, it'll just create more RP and more meaningful decisions and significant responsibilities for the 'white collar' element, as they have to use their purse strings to either lure in more hunters, or set up some kind of deal with an indy outfit. Or just use their hundreds of thousands of unused obsidians and buy stuff from the grocer now and then. That will tide them over until someone else comes along to hunt scrab or bake flour. However it works out, they have the enormous satisfaction of making a huge impact on their clan's ongoing viability. It also didn't require staff interaction.

At least when they find the right people, both parties will feel mutually needed. Maybe Houses will become more selective, and let the Milita/Byn have the sweepings. Again, as weird as it sounds, the mere act of being more selective makes those clans more desirable to join.

But I think, given the current clan landscape of Armageddon...absent a dramatic change, such as the average peak falling from 70+ to 50+, and 10 more northern clans opening up, we're unlikely to see situations degenerate without there being a good reason for it. We're no longer in an era with like 12 open noble clans, with 1-4 people each. Lots of tribes have closed as well. So I'd wager those clans proved unable to sustain themselves with or without free food.  

I think a lot of people badly underestimate how even the most token evidence of contributing has a huge morale boost. Any opportunity to make someone believe they are contributing is more precious than anything else, as far as stoking interest and attachment goes.

Most people cannot get as zen about it as HavocBlue. I don't think most people should be, without Arm losing something essential and becoming less an RPI and more a MUSH.

[valeria]

No thank you. I'd rather see existing food rot first.  I think it would address your something to do point better and with less of a negative impact on city-based clan life, especially off-peak, than this idea.

[Taven]

[stuff]

Everyone was always thrilled to have something substantial and hands on to do. That's the biggest disconnect I'm feeling in this thread, that more people don't realize how important these little things are. Your average f-me aide would flip over having the responsibility of buying food for a noble house, with a sid allowance to ensure it stayed stocked. That would open a lot of RP for her, like seeking out indy hunters, or bakers/cooks.

Imagine a world where a noble aide has anything to do with an indy hunter besides hump them? Madness.

Well, I can't comment on the leader and busywork portion. I haven't been in that position.

I can say that being in charge of stocking all general food is not something that really interests me, as someone who has played aides and clerks. I've been in a clan where we didn't really have a clan cook. Sure, sometimes cooking the food could have brief, entertaining moments. Mostly it was a lot of spam-crafting and sitting in the middle of the street catching my breath before I could lug the cistern further, though.

So yeah, I've actually experienced what you're advocating and didn't feel like it really added much. But as I've pointed out, you can get all the interaction you're advocating for without removing clan cooks and water, just by having the right leader PC and circumstances. And that RP was done very successfully, and I don't believe the PC advocating it ever felt it was empty--It was part of his PC's character.

[Lizzie]

I think it would need to be conditional, and part of the code:

The food hall would have a big food bin, that has code tied to the cook.
If the food bin has more than 20 pieces of food that do NOT have the word "charred" or "burnt" or "portion" in the sdesc, then the cook tells the PC to help themselves to what's in the bin.
If the bin has less than 20 pieces of that food, then the cook will release a few pieces of food. Leaders have unlimited access to the cook.

Also, the thing about stockpiling foods - this is an ongoing issue, and in my opinion it IS an issue in the merchant house clans. There are "bug-saves" in all the clans I've been in so far. What I mean is - you weed out all the crap on the table and when the game resets, it's all right back where it was. I've bugged it on and off for almost ten years, gave up bugging it. It's not a priority to staff, if it was they would've fixed it already.

So really, what player-leaders can do, is instruct recruits to do the cleanup of the food storage room. "All that meat in the shelves? That's all fuckin rotted. Toss half of it away, and find Stymie to bring the other half to that orphanage in the Rinth as our monthly "donation" heh heh heh."

I wanted to "weed out" some stuff in a GMH clan once and was instructed by the staff not to touch anything because my character wasn't authorized. But the ones who WERE authorized were just sitting on it and not doing anything about it. What's the point of being a hunter when you have no crafter PCs and your bin already has 47 duskhorn pelts and 50 gurth shells and 274 shards of obsidian?

The leader PC players need to take control of the excess and delegate the tasks of eliminating. "It's rotten, it's been there for months, it's attracting vermin, it smells bad" is a perfectly reasonable IC justification.

Eliminating auto-cooks is not the answer. Eliminating stockpiles is.

[valeria]

What I mean is - you weed out all the crap on the table and when the game resets, it's all right back where it was. I've bugged it on and off for almost ten years, gave up bugging it. It's not a priority to staff, if it was they would've fixed it already.

Have you tried this since the update to how saves work?  Since rooms saved more frequently, I could see this being less of a problem.

[Lizzie]

What I mean is - you weed out all the crap on the table and when the game resets, it's all right back where it was. I've bugged it on and off for almost ten years, gave up bugging it. It's not a priority to staff, if it was they would've fixed it already.

Have you tried this since the update to how saves work?  Since rooms saved more frequently, I could see this being less of a problem.

It doesn't matter, it's a bug. The bug is - this table was initially saved 10 years ago with 200 pieces of random crap on it. And when the game resets, it will have exactly that same 200 pieces of crap on it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Allow clan leader PCs to be able to "turn on/off" the cook based on the current food situation. If the cook is on, she does her thing. If the cook is off, she suggests you scrounge about the kitchen for some grub; she's busy.