What if clans didn't give unlimited free food?

[Clearsighted]

I can see some instances for free food...like the gruel for the Byn or the Militia. That could be something important and unique to them, since their RP specifically revolves around a militaristic, mess-hall like atmosphere. But the Byn for example, doesn't get free water.

But how different would the game be if say, noble houses, merchant houses and the such, didn't get free unlimited food? In every clan I've been in, there has always been bins upon bins stuffed with food, but everyone just gets the free steak from the cook.

I can understand free water. But food is so incredibly plentiful in the game, that I do not see the point, beyond giving people less things to do.

What's the worse that could happen? An aide or a junior merchant might have to walk down to the local grocer with 500 sids each RL week, to buy a bunch've food? Hunters might be a bit more useful? It'd be amazing if someone actually did buy food from a grocer in this game on a regular basis. I have a hard time imagining any of the current clans not being able to keep themselves stocked on food. Because again, most have tens of thousands of sids, and a grocer is right around the corner. You want a challenge, try keeping a whole unit of Byn watered up on a Trooper's means and salaries. But that somehow is made to work.

I've always had the most fun in clan roles or situations where we had to deal with our own provisions. Does anyone else feel the same way?

[nauta]

I can see some instances for free food...like the gruel for the Byn or the Militia.

But how different would the game be if say, noble houses, merchant houses and the such, didn't get unlimited food? In every clan I've been in, there has always been bins upon bins stuffed with food, but everyone just gets the free steak from the cook.

I can understand free water. But food is so incredibly plentiful in the game, that I do not.

What's the worse that could happen? An aide or a junior merchant might have to walk down to the local grocer with 500 sids each RL week, to buy a bunch've food? Hunters might be a bit more useful?

I've always had the most fun in clan roles or situations, where we had to deal with our own provisions. Does anyone else feel the same way?

In House X (up north, RIP), whether oversight or on purpose, the cook was only accessible to the nobility, behind a locked door.  The rest of us had to rely on the charity.  It worked pretty well.

[Clearsighted]

I can see some instances for free food...like the gruel for the Byn or the Militia.

But how different would the game be if say, noble houses, merchant houses and the such, didn't get unlimited food? In every clan I've been in, there has always been bins upon bins stuffed with food, but everyone just gets the free steak from the cook.

I can understand free water. But food is so incredibly plentiful in the game, that I do not.

What's the worse that could happen? An aide or a junior merchant might have to walk down to the local grocer with 500 sids each RL week, to buy a bunch've food? Hunters might be a bit more useful?

I've always had the most fun in clan roles or situations, where we had to deal with our own provisions. Does anyone else feel the same way?

In House X (up north, RIP), whether oversight or on purpose, the cook was only accessible to the nobility, behind a locked door.  The rest of us had to rely on the charity.  It worked pretty well.

Yes. I've also been in clans that had units posted in parts of the Known that didn't have an automated cook. It was always a much more awesome experience to sustain ourselves. There's nothing to make a ranger feel uniquely useless, than knowing any meat he brings in, is basically worthless beyond selling for sids to some random NPC (a rarely fulfilling experience compared to keeping your buddies fed).

It doesn't help that lots of gear can also get loaded by merchants, without even needing to hunt down the requisite parts. Most storehouses of clans end up overflowing with unused hides and mats. I'd like a quota, where if so-and-so wasn't acquired every month, there might be shortages or restrictions, and then it gets junked into the void as submerging into the virtual economy. Hell, imms should randomly get rid of stuff, as being taken by VNPCs anyways, every few RL months.

[Synthesis]

Clans would just recruit merchants on questionable IC justifications to spamcraft and buy food.

Or clan staff would simply increase noble stipends to account for food and water costs.

Wouldn't really change anything in any significantly good way.

[Clearsighted]

Clans would just recruit merchants on questionable IC justifications to spamcraft and buy food.

Or clan staff would simply increase noble stipends to account for food and water costs.

Wouldn't really change anything in any significantly good way.

Maybe. Personally, I find this answer unconvincing. I've noticed that there is:

1) Already enough loose change (tens upon tens of thousands of unneeded sids) in any clan worthy enough to be currently graced with an automatic cook, that stipends would not need to be increased. It's not a significant expense to begin with. It'd take some clans a RL year just to eat through the food they have stockpiled already.

2) There is enough dead time, with nothing particular to do, such that clans would not need to hire anyone else to take care of these needs. Not with the current state of clans.

I also don't see the difference between spamcooking, and spam eating. If anything, spam cooking is most defensible, as you could have multiple steaks cooking at once, but couldn't be making multiple arrows at the same time.

I know there's a potentially valid point out there somewhere, but I don't find these particularly compelling.

What's far more valuable than sids, in any clan, is giving people something legitimate to do. Giving a minor aide responsibility for keeping the larders stocked is 'something legitimate to do'.

[HavokBlue]

I do not think the perceived benefits outweigh the detriment to offpeak players, or players who would like to spend their playtime doing things more interesting than scrounging for food.

Also, it's already a chore to entice people to join your clan. Removing one of the things that makes clanned play appealing just makes that harder.

Also, I've personally seen how quickly a handful of PCs will go through stockpiled food if there's no automated cook. It's much faster than you think.

[Clearsighted]

I do not think the perceived benefits outweigh the detriment to offpeak players, or players who would like to spend their playtime doing things more interesting than scrounging for food.

Also, it's already a chore to entice people to join your clan. Removing one of the things that makes clanned play appealing just makes that harder.

Also, I've personally seen how quickly a handful of PCs will go through stockpiled food if there's no automated cook. It's much faster than you think.

Well. I've played numerous clans and indies, that didn't have access to free food. So I've got a good pretty good idea how fast it goes!

Anyways. Clans still would still give free water. That's a significant advantage.

I also don't see how it would affect offpeak players. There's going to be a food bin or a larder, which presumably is being kept stocked by those with the responsibility to do so. Whether they're playing at 3 AM or 3 PM shouldn't matter.

And again, the Byn seems to make do without free water, which is far more valuable (and more expensive) than free food. They have offpeak players to, and somehow its worked out the last fifteen years.

You sorely underestimate the value of having even the slightest in game reason to give someone something to occupy themselves with. This game does not suffer from having not enough people to do everything that needs doing. It suffers from not having enough that needs doing by most people, with a rare few being incredibly busy.

EDIT: This is entirely off-topic, but if 'free food' is a significant factor in a clan's recruiting ability, then something is dramatically wrong with that clan's appeal.

[whitt]

And again, the Byn seems to make do without free water, which is far more valuable (and more expensive) than free food. They have offpeak players to, and somehow its worked out the last fifteen years.

Ummm.

[Clearsighted]

And again, the Byn seems to make do without free water, which is far more valuable (and more expensive) than free food. They have offpeak players to, and somehow its worked out the last fifteen years.

Ummm.

What diid the Byn start getting free water too, in the last couple years? (By the way, just posting 'Ummm' without any other context, is surprisingly annoying!)

[MeTekillot]

Since 2010, at least. That's five years.

[Clearsighted]

Since 2010, at least. That's five years.

That's about how long it's been since I was in the Byn. Okay. Then I revise my statement to where no free water worked fine for the Byn for ten years, before they pussied out. How disappointing. I had a Trooper in the Byn that managed to occupy himself with a lot of downtime RP, just by making sure the water situation was well taken care of. It was a legitimate duty that needed handling, as opposed to the Sisyphean makework that seems to predominate lately.

[MeTekillot]

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. The other was that time I started taking dehydration damage as a Byn Runner. That wasn't very much fun for me. Think I had to wish up for staff help with water so I didn't dehydrate to death?

[HavokBlue]

I mean, if your character is in a clan where their position justifies gathering food and/or water for the clan... that's something you can do regardless of the existence of an automated cook.

If you're so bored and lacking for something, anything to do, that you need cook NPCs removed to justify your food hunting, there are some other serious issues at hand, be it the your clan leadership, or your willingness to get involved in things your clan leadership is doing, among other things.

[Clearsighted]

I suppose that's one way of looking at it. The other was that time I started taking dehydration damage as a Byn Runner. That wasn't very much fun for me. Think I had to wish up for staff help with water so I didn't dehydrate to death?

I've been a Runner a dozen times, at least, and I never managed to get anywhere near dehydration, nor saw anyone else. There was no one else you could have turned to for assistance outside a staff intervention or an unlimited fountain?

But dude. There's only so much that characters have to do to maintain themselves. Food and water is basically it. They're plentiful and easy to come by, if you're willing to actually spend sids on it.

I remember when only nobles got free water and that was a BIG deal. What you gain by having a fraction more convenience, or saving an especially dull-witted Runner, you lose out in the thematic weight of the world and meeting your survival needs. Take food and water out of the equation, by making them free and unlimited to every raw recruit in a clan, turns the game into just a MUSH or a hack'n'slash, and removes that gritty, survival element.

There aren't a lot of duties that any character can be expected to reasonably contribute towards, or feel a sense of shared responsibility for. I'd rather be scraping for food and water, than sitting around bored with nothing to do.

[RogueGunslinger]

The Byn now has water. Because it was lame when they didn't and enough people bitched until the staff put it in. I think a couple of characters have even died of thirst in the compound before.

AoD recruits don't have a food or water source right now. It's annoying for both the people who run out of food, and the soldiers who have to remember refilling cisterns and restocking shelves. It's not like it's super hard or anything, it just always comes down to a "I could be doing a lot better things than spamming 'ask cook sausage' forty times."

I imagine it would only be even more annoying if you had to depend on ranking members to go out and kill and skin 10 scrabs just to stock enough food for the next couple of days.



Edit: Also, for people who can go out and get food like GMH hunters? It's super easy. Easy enough that it doesn't really add anything by making certain people HAVE to do it that way. That's why some clans have bins stocked to the brim with food. The only people this would really effect it would probably effect greatly.

[bardlyone]

I can't imagine why anyone would join a clan other than for the plots, if these were taken out. Is it not enough that you don't get any actual pay at scrub rank, but you now want to take food and water guaranteed away as well?

[Clearsighted]

I mean, if your character is in a clan where their position justifies gathering food and/or water for the clan... that's something you can do regardless of the existence of an automated cook.

If you're so bored and lacking for something, anything to do, that you need cook NPCs removed to justify your food hunting, there are some other serious issues at hand, be it the your clan leadership, or your willingness to get involved in things your clan leadership is doing, among other things.

I don't mean to single you out, but this response embodies almost everything I find insufferable about a certain subset of the Armageddon player culture. Instead of actually contributing anything of worth, pretend that you are, by harvesting meat no one will ever use or require. I guess there are some people out there that might get a kick out of that - but I find that both sad and boring. I don't even consider it good RP. It's just delusional.

The rest is just more 'be the change' nonsense.

In the end, I've yet to see a single compelling reason (I don't think a dehydrating Runner counts. If anything, that's a perk) why players shouldn't be able to take responsibility of their own food and water situation (the latter, I can see remaining a 'privilege'). It gives them more stuff to do.

I know people have an instinct on this board to defend anything because that's the way it is. But I've seen the game with, and I've seen the game without free food/water, and without is a much more richer and interesting experience.

Instead of some mealy 'be the change' platitude, I'd like to hear how completely removing the hunting/supply equation out of a 'survival based' RPI for most clans, enhances the game world or playing experience for most characters. I think it amounts to either laziness, or just defending something for the sake of it being the way it currently is.

[HavokBlue]

You do have the option to play in the clans that don't provide free food or water, as well as take the indie route where your concerns are also addressed.

When you take away food and water from clans that have it, as they currently exist, a whole host of problems arise.

When I played a Salarri family member, at the peak of clan activity for that character, I had 22 PCs on my monthly roster. Due to a variety of IC circumstances, there was no sergeant for the hunters and very few ranking PCs capable of leading others outside of the gates. Of these 22 PCs, they were spread over a wide variety of time zones and thus not all available to hunt together at the same time. Now lets assume these 22 PCs don't have access to food or water.

They will absolutely devour any amount of stored food. Consider at least half of them to be hunters. If they're going out and hunting, they're burning through thirst and hunger points much quicker, so they're consuming more food. Now consider the offpeakers who can't go hunt a scrab alone (assuming I'm willing to let the fresh recruit leave the gates alone in the first place) if it turns out they have no water. What if you're the newbie who plays at 4am and the cistern is empty and you're broke because recruits get paid nothing and you're dehydrated and don't know where to find water even though realistically, your clan has plenty of it? Consider the PCs in charge of all of this? When they log in, do you think they want to log in and work on a plot to find buried treasure, or spend 2 hours making sure the larder is stocked?

I can tell you what I'd rather do.

[RogueGunslinger]

In the end, I've yet to see a single compelling reason (I don't think a dehydrating Runner counts. If anything, that's a perk) why players shouldn't be able to take responsibility of their own food and water situation (the latter, I can see remaining a 'privilege'). It gives them more stuff to do.

What if they're incapable of doing it though? If someone is playing off-peak, there is no food or water, and nobody who can get it for them. What do they do? Log off.

[Rhyden]

I agree, but only for clans who normally have pc hunters. So mostly the GMH's?

If there are no pc hunters in one of these clans (which seems rare) it would give the leaders incentive to bring on new hunters, or hire experienced ones to feed their crafters, etc.

Could give clans more to do as a group, while experiencing that basic survival instinct that sometimes seems lacking in said clans. And if food and water begins to run out, then you have conflict while fighting over resources.

And if it's still too easy to live off food/water if implemented, we can talk about rot code...

[Clearsighted]

You do have the option to play in the clans that don't provide free food or water, as well as take the indie route where your concerns are also addressed.

When you take away food and water from clans that have it, as they currently exist, a whole host of problems arise.

When I played a Salarri family member, at the peak of clan activity for that character, I had 22 PCs on my monthly roster. Due to a variety of IC circumstances, there was no sergeant for the hunters and very few ranking PCs capable of leading others outside of the gates. Of these 22 PCs, they were spread over a wide variety of time zones and thus not all available to hunt together at the same time. Now lets assume these 22 PCs don't have access to food or water.

They will absolutely devour any amount of stored food. Consider at least half of them to be hunters. If they're going out and hunting, they're burning through thirst and hunger points much quicker, so they're consuming more food. Now consider the offpeakers who can't go hunt a scrab alone (assuming I'm willing to let the fresh recruit leave the gates alone in the first place) if it turns out they have no water. What if you're the newbie who plays at 4am and the cistern is empty and you're broke because recruits get paid nothing and you're dehydrated and don't know where to find water even though realistically, your clan has plenty of it? Consider the PCs in charge of all of this? When they log in, do you think they want to log in and work on a plot to find buried treasure, or spend 2 hours making sure the larder is stocked?

I can tell you what I'd rather do.

You only had problems, because out of the tens of thousands of obsidian you had available, you were apparently unwilling to spend a tiny fraction of it on the grocers. If a clan is run so badly, that newbies are finding empty cisterns and larders on a regular basis, then that clan is probably overpopulated to begin with. That suddenly seems like a great way for the clans to keep themselves to a reasonable size, without the imms needing to arbitrarily close them now and then! It might also make the clans more choosy about how they let in. Being more choosy will make others want to join them more.

In the end, having it automated, just takes away more chances to meaningfully make a difference (however small), and leaves you with more of the pretendy crap. There are precious few opportunities for most players to make a real difference in Arm. Keeping a larder stocked or water barrel full is the most accessible.

Yeah, I guess if you're an agent or a sergeant and dealing with real important issues all the time, this matters less. But most people have precious few chances to feel like they're legitimately contributing to their clan. Automating what their supposed purpose is (Hunting), just makes them good for nothing but lounging around the Gaj, mudsexxing and comparing their latest Salarri purchase.

[Clearsighted]

In the end, I've yet to see a single compelling reason (I don't think a dehydrating Runner counts. If anything, that's a perk) why players shouldn't be able to take responsibility of their own food and water situation (the latter, I can see remaining a 'privilege'). It gives them more stuff to do.

What if they're incapable of doing it though? If someone is playing off-peak, there is no food or water, and nobody who can get it for them. What do they do? Log off.

Like I said before. I already assume that water will stay the way it is. It's too enshrined. Even though I long for the days when free water was for nobles only. So let's step away from that straw man. Food is MUCH easier than water to get.

I find it incredibly laughable, that any of the current clans that are open for business, would ever be in the situation of a starving newbie. (And since when has Arm EVER cared about starving newbies?) All it takes is 500 sids and a trip to the grocer by one of the aides, or even a semi-active couple of hunters, to keep a reasonably sized clan stocked. It wouldn't surprise me if people were going hungry in Havok's clan, even with 50000+ sids sitting around in various pockets and accounts (a conservative estimate, all together), cause they're saving it up for their next Salarri order.

If that's not working, then it's probably so overpopulated and poorly run, that the game will be done a favor if the stress causes some to leave and seek employment elsewhere, or else to cut away the dead chaff.

Maybe that's why some are so wedded to the idea of free food. It allows them to perpetuate poorly run clans by covering up the weaknesses that having a couple legitimately active and dedicated players would prevent. I'd rather things took a more Darwinian turn. There's so few open clans now, that I can't imagine it getting into this point anyhow. I'm not surprised Tuluki noble clans would have collapsed without it.

[HavokBlue]

Let's break it down by clan.

T'zai Byn - Mercenaries. Not hunters. This is stressed in the T'zai Byn documentation, unless it's been changed since I last saw it. You don't join the Byn to for the hunter experience. You join the byn to be a professional fighter and mercenary during your tenure with the company. So assume they don't get automated food. Someone has to go buy food every couple days (or daily) and make sure there is a surplus so everyone is stocked when you go on a contract. I don't know if the Byn have their own stable in Allanak yet, but if they don't, I can guarantee you that requiring the Byn to buy their own food means they can only ever accept extremely lucrative contracts or they will operate at a financial loss. This is a reality of the way the clan functions. It's not fun trying to make sure your troopers get more than 10 sid each for the contract because stable fees ate up a quarter of the pay. Do the perceived benefits of requiring someone to go buy this food every few days make up for the negatives?

Militia - Theoretically backed with the resources of the city state. Professional soldiers and guards. Not hunters. You don't generally join the militia for the hunting experience. You join the militia to be a professional soldier or guard. This means someone has to go buy food every few days. Is this fun for that person? What does it add and do these perceived additions make up for the downsides?

Noble Houses - Theoretically rich as fuck. Supposedly one of the best jobs a commoner can hope for but oh yeah uh sorry we don't have a horde of slaves doing our bidding. Go buy your own sausage!

Merchant Houses - This is the closest any clan will come to having proper justification for PCs needing to hunt their own food, but guess what? The wealthiest noble house doesn't come close to the poorest Greater Merchant House, in terms of buying power. The PCs leading these clans suffer an incredibly high turnover rate due to the varied stresses of the role (which the warehouse change will hopefully address). Off-peak players commonly join these clans as a low-commitment way to get involved with clan RP as well as sustain their character so they don't have to spend all their offpeak playtime looking for food or water. Do the benefits of making these players hunt for their own food significantly outweight the downsides?

[Armaddict]

First time I saw the cook npc's, they were pretty damn sweet and novel and cool because then I didn't have to buy food anymore with my pc who couldn't leave the gates.


All sorts of information to glean out of that single statement.

[Clearsighted]

Let's break it down by clan.

T'zai Byn

Militia

Noble Houses

Merchant Houses

T'zai Byn - I've already said the T'zai Byn should keep their gruel. It's key to their thematic mess hall/barracks/paramilitary experience. It helps poor little newbies. I think the free water since 2010 is a massive joke, but so be it. That's a good way to ensure that new players treat water as a given, instead of the precious resource it used to be. I remember when people could actually pay for stuff with water (when trading with other PCs). Such an offer would be laughed at, now.

Militia - See above.

Noble Houses - Nobles always need to have something for their people to do. It shocks me you don't realize this. Nobles should have no trouble giving an aide some sids every RL week or so, to go buy a ton of food and stock the larder with it. There's only a few noble houses open now. There's going to be some noble around, and it gives them something to have their F-me aide do. Conversely, it gives them a good reason to offer some exorbitant salary to hire a good hunter or two away from the merchant clans. This would make noble houses a natural destination. A player's career could easily span the Byn, to a merchant house, to a noble house. Nobles would be more picky, and the added pickiness would actually increase the desirability of the roles. Currently, noble houses often struggle to differentiate themselves from other organizations.

Merchant Houses - I don't know what Armageddon game you have been playing, but I've played in the merchant houses a significant amount. I've had a leadership position in them. They're as stable population wise as any other clan. Probably more so, outside some certain delves. Even a partially active clan goes through so many beasts in the natural course of just doing a patrol every now and then, that skinning them becomes a huge pain in the ass and a hassle. Because even if you lug the meat home, all the meat bins are stuffed to full, so we'd often end up leaving it, junking it or vendoring it.

And hey! What's wrong with letting hunters be hunters, and not having to pretend they're contributing? (And I can't help but wonder if you're overly influenced by experience with the Tuluki clans and their wretched clinging to existence). There used to be roughly two versions of each clan, (a northern and a southern branch). Now there's effectively one. I can't ever imagine Salarr, Kurac or Kadius running out of food. If you've ever played a hunter/officer in one of these clans, then you know what I mean. Not without gross mismanagement and overpopulation.

I'd rather have the PC population of a clan capped by our actual in game supply capacity, than being arbitrarily shut for no reason, because it was stuffed full of freeloaders.