What if clans didn't give unlimited free food?

[flurry]

For starters, "we ran out of food" just should never ever happen in GHM or noble clans. It just wouldn't make sense, so why change things to allow that to become a very real possibility?

I think back on my experiences in clans without automated water or automated pay. When the clans were buzzing with activity, maybe it didn't make much of a difference. (Although the pay issue was always a pain in the ass for everyone, I'm pretty sure.) But as soon as you get mismatched play schedules, lulls in activity, absent leadership, etc., then those things can become major hassles. (Some major hassles are fun. These are not among them, IMHO.)

Consolidated player base or not, without clan cooks, there would be GHM and noble clans dealing with lack of food for silly reasons, in defiance of any common sense. Not all the time, but it would happen.

You may be thinking that actually sounds like fun. Well, good news. You can experience that in independent clans already. No policy change needed; it's all right there waiting for you.

P.S. I totally agree that hunter contributions should matter. Along with every other clan role's contributions. I just don't think taking away clan cooks is the way to obtain that, for GMH and noble clans.
P.P.S. I like the idea that Delirium shared.

[Delirium]

Talia: take a look at the Blackwing Outpost NPC hide vendor/seller. The long-legged one at the stall. That's the one I based my idea off of.

I can't look at him right now and may forget when I'm in game again, but if he's doing what you've described, then he's probably using some old, Blackwing-specific script that is not the current generic quartermaster script. (That is a very common thing, for stuff in the older corners of the world to not be up-to-date on their scripting.) (For example, the AoD has quartermasters that are all on very old scripts and should be switched over, but it takes a ton of staff time to fix this kind of thing, and when it's not exactly broke we don't prioritize fixing it.) You're just going to have to trust me on this--quartermasters are a bitch to maintain. Personally, if I was running a GMH, I wouldn't want to commit to using quartermasters to receive and dole out food items. Setting them up, maintaining them, and debugging them is crazy difficult as it stands. So, like I said--interesting idea, but we really don't have the coded resources to do this right now.

Maybe I'm just being obtuse, but it doesn't seem like it'd be that difficult to copy the NPC and set its item types or values differently.

It'd at least be nice if the idea were investigated a little more than being almost immediately shot down with "it'd probably be too hard".

[Clearsighted]

Trust me, we aren't going in the direction of forcing clans to provide their own food/water any time soon.

If anything we are moving the exact opposite direction of that sort of system as fast as we possibly can.

Yes. And I've found the more things are automated and made easier, the more tedious (not less tedious) and boring the game becomes. Until there is virtually nothing else to do but sit around RP ala a MUSH, with only artificial or superfluous reasons to endanger your character. It's not like the merchants/agents in a clan actually need your materials or meats. They can whatever they want loaded up.

They don't even need PC guards, as they have NPCs for that as well. The game has really gotten to a point, where it's been finessed to make existence for a tiny 1-3 person noble house or clan branch, function as easily as possible. But I think we're past that era, and the contrivances to make it work are no longer necessary. There are no longer 2 branches to every House, and there's a whole raft of tiny, underpopulated clans that are closed now.

[Clearsighted]

For starters, "we ran out of food" just should never ever happen in GHM or noble clans. It just wouldn't make sense, so why change things to allow that to become a very real possibility?

I think back on my experiences in clans without automated water or automated pay. When the clans were buzzing with activity, maybe it didn't make much of a difference. (Although the pay issue was always a pain in the ass for everyone, I'm pretty sure.) But as soon as you get mismatched play schedules, lulls in activity, absent leadership, etc., then those things can become major hassles. (Some major hassles are fun. These are not among them, IMHO.)

Consolidated player base or not, without clan cooks, there would be GHM and noble clans dealing with lack of food for silly reasons, in defiance of any common sense. Not all the time, but it would happen.

You may be thinking that actually sounds like fun. Well, good news. You can experience that in independent clans already. No policy change needed; it's all right there waiting for you.

P.S. I totally agree that hunter contributions should matter. Along with every other clan role's contributions. I just don't think taking away clan cooks is the way to obtain that, for GMH and noble clans.
P.P.S. I like the idea that Delirium shared.

It wouldn't be a realistic possibility, especially for the GMHs in their current state. Again, most stuff gets junked, vendored or left on the sands, because there isn't any room for it. But it would be amazing to have something to do, now and then.

I've been part of many clans that relied on getting our own food. None ever risked starvation. There's a substantial portion of the playerbase that takes great pleasure in stockpiling food and keeping everyone sustained. Then they join a GMH as a hunter, and realize there is ironically, no need for their services at all. A lot get bored and turn to making an indy crew, because of this.

I think everyone agrees that city-based military-type clans, such as the Militia and Byn should still get their mess hall gruel. That's an essential component of the Militia/Byn experience, and vital for new players. And oh hey, a perk for joining the Militia. I think getting more people to go from the Byn to the Militia and noble houses as bodyguards, instead of the GMHs, would be an improvement too.

[bardlyone]

There's a substantial portion of the playerbase that takes great pleasure in stockpiling food and keeping everyone sustained. Then they join a GMH as a hunter, and realize there is ironically, no need for their services at all.

I was under the understanding that the hunter branches of the GMHs exist not to feed the GMH's crafters (they have nearly bottomless coin, they can BUY food easily) but to supply the raw materials with which to make things.

And that the food brought in was more incidental than the point of the role.

Perhaps if you want a clanned hunter who supplies food for a clan of pcs without a clan cook, don't tribes not have clan cooks, and also have a need for hunters?

[Desertman]

We have two arguments going on here.

A) What if we run out of food and then our people starve!?!?!
B) We have so much food and need new code to do away with all of the vast amounts of food!?!?!?

I guess the easiest solution is magic-instant-npc's.

The best solution? Probably not. The easiest. Yes.

Just tell your hunters to stop bringing in food because realistically you aren't using it and you don't need it.

Is that IC'ly jarring for a hunter? Yes. Is it still an IC fact? Yes.

[Desertman]

I was under the understanding that the hunter branches of the GMHs exist not to feed the GMH's crafters (they have nearly bottomless coin, they can BUY food easily) but to supply the raw materials with which to make things.

In theory. In practice, it usually works out to not be the case.

[Clearsighted]

There's a substantial portion of the playerbase that takes great pleasure in stockpiling food and keeping everyone sustained. Then they join a GMH as a hunter, and realize there is ironically, no need for their services at all.

I was under the understanding that the hunter branches of the GMHs exist not to feed the GMH's crafters (they have nearly bottomless coin, they can BUY food easily) but to supply the raw materials with which to make things.

And that the food brought in was more incidental than the point of the role.

Perhaps if you want a clanned hunter who supplies food for a clan of pcs without a clan cook, don't tribes not have clan cooks, and also have a need for hunters?

As any clanned hunter can tell you, not even the materials they bring in are necessary. Not really. It's a tiny bit better these days than it used to be, owing to the master craft situation. There was a time when there was virtually no master crafts. Over the last half decade, quite a few interesting things have come into the game as being added to clan craftables. So every now and then, there's a real need. Since more often than not, those have to be crafted, and are often really cool!

But the majority of the stuff is still basically loaded at will, and the remainder essentially serves to help crafters skill up on, and no other purpose.

And again. Food/hunger and water/thirst is literally the only commodity that every player needs met, and which must always be sated. I think it throws the economy dramatically out of whack when two of the most important issues in a survival RPI are made completely irrelevant to the majority of players.

There's plenty of sids in the game, but people just let it rot in Nenyuk or save it up for their tenth Salarri weapon, since they'll never need to use it to fill a waterskin or buy a meal.

I'm all for newbs/militia getting Mess Hall gruel. I'm all for dainty nobles, in our currently restricted (and highly improved) noble atmosphere, getting whatever they want. I'm not necessarily in favor of noble employees getting what they want, unless the noble PCs pay them.

But at a minimum, GMHs should lose automated food.

I think the time is right, with the dozen+ underplayed clans recently closed, to introduce a bit more of the survival element into this RPI. Because it's gotten a bit silly. And it might not have a dramatic effect right away (RGS seems to think nothing will change). But that goes both ways, in that it's unnecessary to take those jobs and responsibility out of PC hands as well.

[flurry]

Just tell your hunters to stop bringing in food because realistically you aren't using it and you don't need it.

Is that IC'ly jarring for a hunter? Yes. Is it still an IC fact? Yes.

The fact that hunters don't need to bring in food for the cooks is not an IC fact at all. It's an OOC fact.

[Clearsighted]

Just tell your hunters to stop bringing in food because realistically you aren't using it and you don't need it.

Is that IC'ly jarring for a hunter? Yes. Is it still an IC fact? Yes.

The fact that hunters don't need to bring in food for the cooks is not an IC fact at all. It's an OOC fact.

And equally jarring.

[Molten Heart]

Realistically the NPCs/VPNCs need to eat. Just like crafters don't just make goods to sell to PCs, it makes sense that hunters would feed others besides PCs.

[Delirium]

Just tell your hunters to stop bringing in food because realistically you aren't using it and you don't need it.

Is that IC'ly jarring for a hunter? Yes. Is it still an IC fact? Yes.

The fact that hunters don't need to bring in food for the cooks is not an IC fact at all. It's an OOC fact.

What flurry and Molten Heart said. That's why my solution focused on a way to solve BOTH problems, not just one of them.

The actual niggly details of implementation can and surely will vary, but I think it's worth looking into for the long-term gains of making clan life more interesting, fun, and sustainable - and less of an OOC hassle met with frequent IC/OOC disconnects.

Even if it's something as simple as storage rooms which re-set periodically to wipe out extra items and re-stock a basic inventory.

[Barzalene]

I think people are underestimating the amount of  players who would love to be tasked with these chores. Not every player. Admittedly not me. But there is always a minion who enjoys these tangible contributions.

[bardlyone]

Clearsighted:

You're supposing things never shift back to 2 cities and require all these changes to be undone, first off - which has already been said, it's possible Tuluk will be reopening and that's why the closure was not an IC thing.

You're also supposing that everyone who plays has the same experiences as you. This is a new account for me, but I've had an account before. And I can tell you I've gone hungry on MULTIPLE clanned pcs. And gone without water on them. Because of the changes you want implimented being the way it was already. And guess what. Other people have posted the SAME EXPERIENCE.

I get you want what your hunter to do to seem more meaningful. I do. I'm just selfish enough to tell you that I know where your suggestions go, and it's not fucking fun to be the asshole who gets shafted because you happen to be up playing at 3 am and everyone who can go out and bring in the 6 animals worth of meat you will go through during your login time for food, has not decided to stock the larders.

Given the lack of pay at entry level in most clans, food, water, and a footlocker are the ONLY perks. Do you really think it will be beneficial or help clans in ANY right to get rid of 2/3 of what they offer? Do you think it will somehow increase interest in them? It's not hunting for your own food that makes indy outfits fun. It's the fact that the top dogs are pcs. And this change won't do anything to make the situation any different with regards to that.

You know how I know? I've been there, done it, seen it, and know how it shakes out.

[Molten Heart]

It'd be cool is food could go bad.

[Delirium]

Food isn't the only problem though. I think we've all seen a storage room that has an ungodly amount of .. well... everything, in it.

[Gaare]

I can't think anything cooler than characters fighting for food and water. Maybe smart-phones.. but that's another setting.

[KankWhisperer]

But the majority of the stuff is still basically loaded at will, and the remainder essentially serves to help crafters skill up on, and no other purpose.

I think that depends on your House. I know one in which every item sold that is craftable is crafted by PCs and the materials are gathered by PCs for said items.

I do however agree that clan cooks for the peons/outside folks could be gotten rid of without any issues. No one is going to starve. I am one who believes that the more activities you have, even if they might seem boring, the better. It's not the end result of your hunt for food that matters, it's the journey to do it. When I was in the 'Byn I used to force folks to actually cook and RP putting their cooked meat/tubers into the stew. Then I would blame them for making it taste bad when they burned it.

[Barzalene]

Food isn't the only problem though. I think we've all seen a storage room that has an ungodly amount of .. well... everything, in it.

Agreed.

[bardlyone]

I can't think anything cooler than characters fighting for food and water. Maybe smart-phones.. but that's another setting.

Not even, say, clans fighting over rare resources related to their actual business ventures, as opposed to the food and water that have -IC- been guaranteed and promised as part of joining for more than half a decade in most clans that recruit?

Even characters that are unable to scavenge food, lack the ability to use a weapon, can't leave the gates, and aren't receiving pay for RL weeks but are supposed to be in a luxe, cushy job with an organization that is vastly wealthier than a noble house?

Alright, that's where you find your fun, I get it. Where is the part wherein it lines up with ACTUAL IC REALITY? Especially given that one of the biggest selling points of joining clans for those who are NOT around at peak times is NOT HAVING TO DO THE VERY THING YOU PROPOSE?

[Clearsighted]

I think people are underestimating the amount of  players who would love to be tasked with these chores. Not every player. Admittedly not me. But there is always a minion who enjoys these tangible contributions.

This. I know the completely jaded APM crowd is beyond this, and more fixed on their next nilazi, sorc, noble or what have you (being a bit tongue in cheek here)...Not that there's anything wrong with that. Hey, they've earned it.

But the majority of players are still hunters, mercs and grebbers. Even those that have been playing 10+ years, are still drawn bound to blue collar roles. And a lot of them (Although as Havoc has demonstrated, not all of them), would rather their hunters actually be hunting and contributing, than pretending to be. Because this is still an RPI survival MUD.

Personally, I think automated food has forced more people out of the GMHs than brought them in. It's the whole phenomena of the indy crew, as the GMHs do eventually get extremely boring, if there is no agent or leadership in place that is creative enough to make busywork or cool plots to replace their automated jobs.

Anyways. The real draw for most 'blue collar' players who join GMHs, is having a locker and access to better gear. Not free food, which merely cheapens the experience.

[Molten Heart]

Wars are fought over resources like food. Why not in Zalanthas? The problem is it's supposed to be a harsh world with few resources but that isn't well represented in the game world which has a lot of resources available to the individual.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm skeptical of the "there's people who'd actually like to do this" argument. People say the same thing about slave rolecalls (including big threads about how totes cool they are), but when Staff open them up they only get one or two applications.

Everyone having to scrounge for food follows a similar model in my mind: it sounds like a cool idea that fits with this harsh desert world our characters live in, but when faced with actually having to execute on it and work within the limitations the concept proscribes, we realize it's a pain in the ass.

[Barzalene]

Crazy idea: pick a clan and give it a try for a month.

[Gaare]

I can't think anything cooler than characters fighting for food and water. Maybe smart-phones.. but that's another setting.

Not even, say, clans fighting over rare resources related to their actual business ventures, as opposed to the food and water that have -IC- been guaranteed and promised as part of joining for more than half a decade in most clans that recruit?

No. Because it's a RPI game and fighting for a resource is not the most important part of it. It's -how- you fight for a resource. Still food and water should be most valuable resource of all. If a character joins a clan and there is free food and water (surely there must be such clans), then that should really mean something. Characters should fight each other for that position.

PS. What Delirium suggests is very smart.