Discussion thread: Assorted Game Changes

[Delirium]

I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.

Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.

Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with
- to let them suggest projects of their own (and not make the approval process a huge hassle).

I guess we will see!

Why would it cause quick turnover and/or burnout? I'm going to guess that Staff are going to pick a few people and make a "list" of builders and then just offers the project to the person who wants to do it.

Kinda like we have once in a while, like a call for descs? It seems like many are interested in that and they love writing for the sake of writing.

I mean, I don't really see Staff as making it so that builders have to constantly work on the projects they are given or else.

Because being assigned something to work on and choosing to work on something are two very different things in the long-term.

It sounds like most of my concerns have been answered. Which is good.

I'm not down on the idea of this, I am concerned about the implementation of it. I want to see this succeed; better to poke holes in it now than later.

[Talia]

The way we do it staff-side is that projects get pre-discussed, usually, with whomever would be responsible for approving them. (So, a Storyteller talks to their Admin or to a Producer; an Admin talks to a Producer.) Then after a bit of discussion the project leader puts together an official proposal (which is not really a big deal, I've written bunches of them, they take me an hour or so usually). Then there's discussion amongst all staff who want to participate in that, then there's a go/no-go on the project. It's approximately the way a project would be proposed and approved in a real-world workplace, with perhaps a bit more written documentation since we do everything in text.

After that, if someone wants to volunteer for a project, they can. If no one volunteers, then it's up to the project leader(s) to get it done. But usually there is some help forthcoming. And that's where Builders will come in, for projects that require building. If they want to volunteer, cool; if not, OK. We don't assign staff to projects and plots they don't want to work on. Nor do we get punitive with people if they can't get something finished in a particular timeframe, or if their availability dips for a while.

I don't see projects and plots as "someone else's creative work." I see them as collaborative efforts. In fact, I can't think of a plot or project that I've worked on or been the nominal leader of that hasn't sprung from an impromptu brainstorming session and/or been very heavily modified by the ideas of others later; and it requires staff from all over the game to make big RPTs happen. I don't think any of us really care who gets the specific credit when something awesome gets done for the game. The Builders will be part of this team, part of the overall collaborative effort, while still getting to enjoy the benefits of being "just players."

[Molten Heart]

I like the idea of a builder.

It'd be good if each individual zone in the game world had a knowledgeable staff member that looked over and maintained it, making sure it worked as intended, meshing with the rest of the game world and taking steps to improve it when desired. Does staff have this kind of thing? Would this be maybe be something builders might do?

As far as building and creativity (and for pretty much everything) I believe it works best when the creators are inspired and acting out of a sense of love for the project rather than out of a sense of duty to a project. So being assigned is probably not as good as having builders that submit ideas that can be approved and modified to fit the full vision of the game as a whole.

Do builders get creative control over what they're building?  For example what if someone were to be building a new city or city state, it'd be more effective if they understood the culture and setting implicitly. Who better to do this than the person creating the culture and documents to go along with the new creation, rather than the person building the coded constructs in the game world.

[Molten Heart]

If builders don't have creative control, I think that'd be better for the people with that creative control to instead be doing the building.

[bcw81]

>.> So... Selfish question - I have an account notes request in right now that I've been waiting on for a while expecting one of those fancy karma reviews. Will I still get a karma review with it, or do I need to submit a new request for that?

[Talia]

If builders don't have creative control, I think that'd be better for the people with that creative control to instead be doing the building.

I don't really know what this means. In a sense, everyone on staff has "creative control." In another sense, no one does, because we're working on a big project together (the game) and as I said, that's collaborative.

I don't think the best use of my time is to spend all of it building shit. But I can't run the plots I want to, or finish the projects that I want to roll out, without some building getting done. I currently do some of it, the Storytellers in my clan group do some of it, now we'll have support from Builders doing some of it.

The best use of my time, as an Admin, is to run regional plots and coordinate stuff between individual clans and clan groups. That provides the most bang-for-buck in terms of fun in the game at the player level.

I guess I just don't really understand the perspective of some players here. There seems to be an assumption that builders will be creatively stifled. I don't get it.

[Nyr]

>.> So... Selfish question - I have an account notes request in right now that I've been waiting on for a while expecting one of those fancy karma reviews. Will I still get a karma review with it, or do I need to submit a new request for that?

If you've got one in queue, we won't be jerks about it and make you put in something else.  Don't sweat it.

[Jeax]

I guess I just don't really understand the perspective of some players here. There seems to be an assumption that builders will be creatively stifled. I don't get it.

I can definitely understand this sentiment, but I think Nyr debunked the assumption that was raising that concern. If you were just "assigned" material to create, your creativity wouldn't really be allowed to flow how you would like it, and you may have to just discard or ignore your ideas, etc, because you are operating within someone else's creative box. I think the debunk comes in that, with the board, the builders can choose what they are going to work on. And really, for something that tries to retain a high level of quality, this is the way it should be. Otherwise you would have a QA nightmare on your hands with probably about a 50% output, and it would create more work than it saved (speaking from the experience of doing this exact thing elsewhere).

I think the idea is great, and I hope to get involved. If I don't like the options before me, I just won't do any of them. Because ultimately if a builder (this applies to anything, really) is not inspired for their project, they aren't going to produce maximum quality work anyhow. This psychological reality is what has created the "results oriented work environment" in development land. Let people work when they are "inspired" to do so, and on projects that they are passionate about. That's how a business (or in this case, MUD) gets their best output.

I think that was the concern being raised, but I feel like it's fairly addressed.

[Delirium]

^ I was going to respond, but Jeax beat me to it - that was exactly my concern and I feel that it's been addressed.

[Molten Heart]

If builders don't have creative control, I think that'd be better for the people with that creative control to instead be doing the building.

I don't really know what this means. In a sense, everyone on staff has "creative control." In another sense, no one does, because we're working on a big project together (the game) and as I said, that's collaborative.

I don't think the best use of my time is to spend all of it building shit. But I can't run the plots I want to, or finish the projects that I want to roll out, without some building getting done. I currently do some of it, the Storytellers in my clan group do some of it, now we'll have support from Builders doing some of it.

The best use of my time, as an Admin, is to run regional plots and coordinate stuff between individual clans and clan groups. That provides the most bang-for-buck in terms of fun in the game at the player level.

I guess I just don't really understand the perspective of some players here. There seems to be an assumption that builders will be creatively stifled. I don't get it.

Will builders be creating what they want, their own creations, or will they be creating what someone else wants, the creations of someone else?

[wizturbo]

I also like the volunteer concept, because it will naturally de-prioritize any ideas that people don't get fired up about.  

[nauta]

Will builders be creating what they want, their own creations, or will they be creating what someone else wants, the creations of someone else?

Both!  It sounds like you'll get a list of things that you can pick from that other people want, and the one you want to work on is the one you work on.

[Delirium]

I do still have one question that didn't get addressed (perhaps because you're still figuring it out! That's fine):

Will builders be able to suggest projects where they see a need, or will they be limited to choosing from ST/Admin-posted assignments?

[wizturbo]

Will builders be creating what they want, their own creations, or will they be creating what someone else wants, the creations of someone else?

Builder summary as I see it having read this thread:

• Builders are volunteers with severely limited access to staff tools, and no involvement in plot-lines, observing players or animating NPCs.


• Will assist staff in building rooms, items, NPCs and other stuff behind the scenes.


• Access to specific zones/item lists/etc will be turned on and off by project.


• Work will be farmed out via an internal forum where builders can volunteer for projects staff have approved through their go/no-go process.  


• Projects of this nature will have no builder "owner", it's a collaborative process with staff oversight.  

I'm speculating here, but I assume builders (as well as players and staff) can suggest projects to undergo this "Go/No-go" process by using the idea command or through the request tool as has been the case for years.   If the project is approved, it'll show up on the builder forums and people can volunteer to flesh it out.  Example:  You think it would be cool if a certain room had some custom echos.  You suggest it via the request tool, staff agree it would be cool and add it to the builder forums as an open project.  You can volunteer to that project and contribute, along with others, in a collaborative process.

[HavokBlue]

Since any addition seems like it has to go through the official staff 'project' format, I think a staffer would have to be willing to take lead on a given suggested project.

[Down Under]

I would have absolutely no problem being a Builder and not proposing projects of my own, or only working on ST/Admin/Producer projects. I like writing descriptions (Call it the Dungeon Master Syndrome)  of both NPCs and Rooms/Areas. I find creativity comes from any proposition, not just the ones I have agency with.

[Kol]

From what I've read in a quick skim, it seems Builders are more to take some weight of the time to create rooms, NPC's and items needed for plots, as well as Mastercrafts etc.

[Talia]

Will builders be able to suggest projects where they see a need, or will they be limited to choosing from ST/Admin-posted assignments?

I don't think we really have an official answer for this, or at least I haven't seen one staff-side. However, extrapolating from some other policies and habits we do have in place:

-- Storytellers have an initial probation period of 3 months, during which they cannot make any project or plot proposals. I assume the same will be true of Builders for at least an initial period.
-- Proposals almost always come out of discussion with other staff, or are discussed with other staff before the proposal is written. That is, there's an ongoing relationship happening between staff and ideas for the game are part of that. Since Builders will have access to discussion with staff, both in game and on the IDB, they will now be part of that flow of ideas.
-- If a particular Builder works to create relationships with staff, and understands how to work effectively as part of that team, I can see a Builder throwing an idea to a Storyteller or Admin and saying, "Would this fit in with your other current stuff, can we do this?" If it's seen as a fit, then the proposal would get made by the staffer, and the Builder would participate in the project. Relationships go a really long way to getting stuff done; we don't each work in a vacuum.
-- If Builders can independently make project proposals, they would still need to go through an approval process, and potential rejection is something that Builders will have to deal with. Everyone on staff who makes proposals at some time experiences the rejection of a proposal.

Just a note: We don't use the request tool or ideas in game as part of our project process. That primarily happens through the IDB, which Builders will have access to in part.

[whitt]

Re: the building of unique(ish) items by builders.

Have you looked through the mastercraft file for approved, player submitted gear that is only craftable by a deceased player?  That might be a wealth of (old) cool items ready to roll right on into storylines with minimal effort required by staff to make use of them.

[MeTekillot]

what about magick stuff can builders make a giant glowing sword of doom??

[Jihelu]

what about magick stuff can builders make a giant glowing sword of doom??

I'm looking forward to the floating water rock paradise made by a Viv and Ruk.

[Talia]

Have you looked through the mastercraft file for approved, player submitted gear that is only craftable by a deceased player?  That might be a wealth of (old) cool items ready to roll right on into storylines with minimal effort required by staff to make use of them.

We do look in the database for suitable objects, rooms, and NPCs that already exist when we are working on plots. Sometimes we can find usable stuff, sometimes not. For example, when Italis and I were working on the Ratsucker plot in 2012, we wanted desiccated corpses that we could leave around Allanak for PCs to find. Since there wasn't anything like that already in the database, we needed to build new objects. And although, in a sense, all plots are MacGuffin plots, I'm not really that interested in running plots that are totally centered around MacGuffins, so I don't spend much time trolling the database for old cool items. (Also, honestly, I don't really think there are as many as players think there are.)

[Kol]

There's a database....

[Delirium]

Thank you for that detailed and thoughtful response, Talia.

It sounds like the builder role is certainly worth giving a shot if you're interested in contributing to the game in that fashion.

Granted, I would prefer to help mend building-related issues that I've been seeing for years. I would likely enjoy building plot-related items as well, as that would translate to creating more fun for players to enjoy in the short-term, but I am inevitably a big picture thinker that wants to fix nitty-gritty and/or fundamental issues instead of applying makeup.

How that translates to being able to enjoy the builder role, I'm not sure, and I suspect the best way to find out would be to try it and see.

[Kol]

Thank you for that detailed and thoughtful response, Talia.

How that translates to being able to enjoy the builder role, I'm not sure, and I suspect the best way to find out would be to try it and see.

-- Storytellers have an initial probation period of 3 months, during which they cannot make any project or plot proposals. I assume the same will be true of Builders for at least an initial period.

Just a note: We don't use the request tool or ideas in game as part of our project process. That primarily happens through the IDB, which Builders will have access to in part.

I would assume you could propose it after a probation period.

Unless you're talking about coding, which is a different ballgame...