This thread is to discuss the changes as mentioned here:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49141.0.html
So I'm assuming if you put in both a Karma request and Account notes people aren't going to hit you(Hit meaning think it's redundant seeing as it is two things).
And, what character report format did you decide on? Or is that somewhere I could find and I'm just being dumb.
This guy here? Superbly impressed. Its nice to see and feel the feedback.
Awesome!
I'm especially happy about the NPCs with stock items and the Builders non-staff staff.
Quote from: Jihelu on April 05, 2015, 01:17:10 AM
So I'm assuming if you put in both a Karma request and Account notes people aren't going to hit you(Hit meaning think it's redundant seeing as it is two things).
And, what character report format did you decide on? Or is that somewhere I could find and I'm just being dumb.
You aren't being dumb, it isn't anywhere yet. We'll have the 'template' up next week I hope. Nathvaan is waiting for the final text to get to him,
Quote from: Adhira on April 05, 2015, 01:41:01 AM
Quote from: Jihelu on April 05, 2015, 01:17:10 AM
So I'm assuming if you put in both a Karma request and Account notes people aren't going to hit you(Hit meaning think it's redundant seeing as it is two things).
And, what character report format did you decide on? Or is that somewhere I could find and I'm just being dumb.
You aren't being dumb, it isn't anywhere yet. We'll have the 'template' up next week I hope. Nathvaan is waiting for the final text to get to him,
Okay! Everything looks Gucci.
Really like how people actually talked about something and people took it into consideration.
Builders look interesting and I look to seeing a lot more fancy rooms and major plot related things being pretty.
This is really great. The changes are impressive and they have been implemented or are getting implemented in a relatively short time frame. I am looking forward to seeing the changes in the Mastercrafting documentation, this is a huge point of confusion for me.
(http://images.cpcache.com/merchandise/514_400x400_NoPeel.jpg?region=name:FrontCenter,id:27464514,w:16)
Change We Can Believe In!
Where do I apply for the builder role? It sounds perfect for me!
(http://www.toyshopuk.co.uk/images/supplier/66/bob-the-builder-toys.jpg)
10/10
Quote from: Bushranger on April 05, 2015, 01:50:50 AM
Where do I apply for the builder role? It sounds perfect for me!
(http://www.toyshopuk.co.uk/images/supplier/66/bob-the-builder-toys.jpg)
You have to apply in game.
I know this sounds stupid, but creating an "ArmMUD" account is a good idea.
Game changes: Uh, okay.
Awesome!
You guys are on fire lately!
Can someone explain the zone changes in layman's terms.
Quote from: Jihelu on April 05, 2015, 02:03:25 AM
Can someone explain the zone changes in layman's terms.
objects in save rooms are saved to a database every two minutes now. In the past, they were saved much less frequently, like every 45+ minutes. Now if the game crashes, objects that were dropped or taken are much much less likely to be poofed or duped.
All of these improvements are great. They all help make things a little better all around. Looking forward to what comes next!
i wan 2 mak rheums leik dis
mai rheum NSEWUDWTF
lol hey boo im here makin rheums u c tree hear
big tal tree w/leik 400 braches n-leevs
u c rock w/riting: kilroy wuz here
Also here: ur mom
lol
>
srsly tho:
Awesome changes, all of them! I can't wait to submit my first MC since - well since a whole long time ago. I'd love to build some rooms and furniture and all kinds of other fun things, as well!
The appeal of playing GMH merchant sorts just increased drastically. No more list-making and note-taking every time a PC wants to order something and hoping that I interpret it right and that whichever staffer loads stuff interprets my interpretation of what is wanted right.
Serious question though:
Regarding the new builder position. I see that this will be exclusively building, no storytelling. I'm wondering though - will roll-out of built rooms/mobs/furniture/pancake mix/etc. involve no "storytelling function" at all? For an example:
Lizzie plays a merchant named Amosa who finally has earned the right to her own warehouse, and NPC guard. She submits this, and the builder builds it.
When it's time for the change to go live in the game, how will it be implemented? Can the builder animate the NPC guard and find Amosa's mind to inform her that he's taken up duty outside her new warehouse and give her a tour? And maybe they could have a brief discussion about the limits of his authority/duty, and he can go OOC to remind Lizzie (the player) of the syntax for getting him to unguard or guard or whatever it is that gate guards can be authorized to do?
Or will that still need to be handled by the unclanned storyteller staff? Or will it no longer be handled at all? Or will it be a case-by-case situation?
I think staff will just assign a list of things that need to be built to builders, who will complete them and check them off on the list. Nothing else, if I'm reading correctly.
Builder positions are builder only. There is no animation involved. The staff needing the building project (admin and ST team requesting it) would be determining how a particular building project gets implemented. Builders will not be interacting with the gameworld that players are inhabiting.
The pending addition of npcs in the warehouse to reduce order time?
Fucking genius, man. Fucking genius.
Lots of good changes!
Question: if the bug/typo/idea database has been cleared out and I notice something that I've previously typo'd that still exists, should I resubmit? Or does this mean that some are still pending, just not old ones and duplicates?
My only concern.
I just hope the items with crafting recipes attached are NOT on the NPC's in the warehouses.
House hunters are already kind of undervalued in my opinion. It's a job where you know when you become a hunter in a lot of ways the things you bring in aren't needed because, "All of the really good stuff is just ordered through staff anyways. They aren't using my materials to make it.".
I really like the idea of NPC's in warehouses having all of the items you can't codedly craft. If it can be codedly crafted however, let's leave that to the actual in-game players to produce. In my opinion, that is just much more fulfilling for everyone.
I would also love for the NPC's lists to basically be a guideline for "What do we need to make crafting recipes for so we can take it off of this list asap.".
In a perfect world/game (in my opinion) eventually those NPC's would have no items in their lists and all items would be craftable through the IC efforts of the players in the Houses.
Quote from: valeria on April 05, 2015, 09:52:32 AM
Lots of good changes!
Question: if the bug/typo/idea database has been cleared out and I notice something that I've previously typo'd that still exists, should I resubmit? Or does this mean that some are still pending, just not old ones and duplicates?
There are definitely some still pending, around 2500 or so. There are just no longer around 15,000 sitting in the database. If you submitted something say - 3 years ago and it's still not fixed, then yes, resubmit it. If it was within that timeframe it may still just be waiting for proper attention.
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 10:26:13 AM
My only concern.
I just hope the items with crafting recipes attached are NOT on the NPC's in the warehouses.
House hunters are already kind of undervalued in my opinion. It's a job where you know when you become a hunter in a lot of ways the things you bring in aren't needed because, "All of the really good stuff is just ordered through staff anyways. They aren't using my materials to make it.".
I really like the idea of NPC's in warehouse having all of the items you can't codedly craft. If it can be codedly crafted however, let's leave that to the actual in-game players to produce. In my opinion, that is just much more fulfilling for everyone.
I would also love the NPC's lists to basically be a guideline for "What do we need to make crafting recipes for so we can take it off of this list asap.".
In a perfect world/game (in my opinion) eventually those NPC's would have no items in their lists and all items would be craftable through the IC efforts of the players in the Houses.
This is how the system works right now. Right now if it's a clan craftable we ask that the GMH merchant/agent ordering try and get the players to craft it. What we do is provide the clan materials needed to make said items. For example in Kurac it may be certain types of camouflage material.
Thanks, I just wasn't sure whether "cleaned out" meant :D I didn't want to run around resubmitting typos I'd already submitted (and contributing to the duplicates problem).
Quote from: Adhira on April 05, 2015, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 10:26:13 AM
My only concern.
I just hope the items with crafting recipes attached are NOT on the NPC's in the warehouses.
House hunters are already kind of undervalued in my opinion. It's a job where you know when you become a hunter in a lot of ways the things you bring in aren't needed because, "All of the really good stuff is just ordered through staff anyways. They aren't using my materials to make it.".
I really like the idea of NPC's in warehouse having all of the items you can't codedly craft. If it can be codedly crafted however, let's leave that to the actual in-game players to produce. In my opinion, that is just much more fulfilling for everyone.
I would also love the NPC's lists to basically be a guideline for "What do we need to make crafting recipes for so we can take it off of this list asap.".
In a perfect world/game (in my opinion) eventually those NPC's would have no items in their lists and all items would be craftable through the IC efforts of the players in the Houses.
This is how the system works right now. Right now if it's a clan craftable we ask that the GMH merchant/agent ordering try and get the players to craft it. What we do is provide the clan materials needed to make said items. For example in Kurac it may be certain types of camouflage material.
You mean you provide them with the crafting recipes and leave it up to them to find the materials/make the materials in-game through IC procurement, or do you mean you give them the materials and just let them codedly craft it?
If it's clan-craftable, we'd say "it's clan-craftable" and encourage the ordering person to get their PCs to craft it. If there are special materials needed to craft it, as Adhira put it, they'll be provided. Otherwise it is often extremely simple. You're part of the clan? Now you can analyze any finished product and see the recipe, then craft it.
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 10:37:53 AM
If it's clan-craftable, we'd say "it's clan-craftable" and encourage the ordering person to get their PCs to craft it. If there are special materials needed to craft it, as Adhira put it, they'll be provided. Otherwise it is often extremely simple. You're part of the clan? Now you can analyze any finished product and see the recipe, then craft it.
So there are special materials you have to have for some items that also aren't craftable before you can craft certain items from those materials?
Damn, how deep does this rabbit hole go?
(I'm curious what the idea was around making a craftable item that has materials in it that aren't craftable to begin with....That just seems strange.)
In that case, I amend my idea to add, "I would like the NPC warehouse merchants to have only A: Non-craftable items, or B: non-craftable materials for other items on them.".
They would have only non-craftable finished products, and non-craftable materials for other finished products (that can be crafted) on them.
Of course, the list would still function as a list of items that need to have crafting recipes made for them (including those materials that can't currently be crafted).
Don't worry. We've got a pretty good handle on how those NPCs should be loaded up ;)
Quote from: Adhira on April 05, 2015, 10:45:05 AM
Don't worry. We've got a pretty good handle on how those NPCs should be loaded up ;)
This is the nicest, "Stop asking questions.", I've ever gotten. :)
I'll take it.
I want some clarification on my end.
If it's CRAFTABLE it's not being loaded on the NPC.
If it's NOT craftable, the NPCs have it loaded.
Right?
Will builders be able to work on the typo queue?
Quote from: Saellyn on April 05, 2015, 11:01:02 AM
I want some clarification on my end.
If it's CRAFTABLE it's not being loaded on the NPC.
If it's NOT craftable, the NPCs have it loaded.
Right?
No. Adhira was explaining how it works now. We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD. They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 05, 2015, 11:07:38 AM
Will builders be able to work on the typo queue?
At this time, no. They will be handling building projects as assigned/as needed.
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
No. Adhira was explaining how it works now. We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD. They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.
If I was playing a House crafter, or a House hunter, or pretty much anything but a House "Agent/Merchant" that doesn't craft (I admit it's great for them)......that would bum me out a bit.
The bug/typo/idea DB has been reduced to approximately 1250 items. For typos, 48 of those are PCs. With the new tool we have, we can do all of those now (or, obviously, delete the ones for PCs that are dead). The remainder (378) can be winnowed down pretty easily.
There are 44 ideas. I don't think we can really do much with a lot of these apart from leave them there. Obvious joke ideas can be discarded, but it may well be that we do something with the others.
The remainder are bugs (779). Just looking at the first 50 here and I've deleted 10 that are erroneously filed or obviously not bugs/already fixed (and fixed two that were not necessarily bugs, but typos--or straddling the line between the two). There's definitely a lot of wishful thinking about bugs :)
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 11:47:33 AM
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
No. Adhira was explaining how it works now. We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD. They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.
If I was playing a House crafter, or a House hunter, or pretty much anything but a House "Agent/Merchant" that doesn't craft (I admit it's great for them)......that would bum me out a bit.
This is an example of the kind of trade-off that can, should, and will be done in order to make the game better for everyone. Better for staff? Yes--no loading item orders once per week once implemented. Better for those selling? Yes--if they don't have anyone to craft the items or get the materials, they don't need to wait for staff to load it. And it doesn't affect the role of a crafter or hunter as much as you are claiming. If you want to play a useful House crafter or hunter, do so. This won't prevent you from doing that. It just prevents the rest of the game from suffering when you aren't doing it.
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 11:59:53 AM
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 11:47:33 AM
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 11:24:49 AM
No. Adhira was explaining how it works now. We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD. They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.
If I was playing a House crafter, or a House hunter, or pretty much anything but a House "Agent/Merchant" that doesn't craft (I admit it's great for them)......that would bum me out a bit.
This is an example of the kind of trade-off that can, should, and will be done in order to make the game better for everyone. Better for staff? Yes--no loading item orders once per week once implemented. Better for those selling? Yes--if they don't have anyone to craft the items or get the materials, they don't need to wait for staff to load it. And it doesn't affect the role of a crafter or hunter as much as you are claiming. If you want to play a useful House crafter or hunter, do so. This won't prevent you from doing that. It just prevents the rest of the game from suffering when you aren't doing it.
For me personally, as a crafter or a hunter for that House, it makes anything I accomplish feel like a secondary afterthought with no real value at all. If I am there "playing that role" at all or not it doesn't matter in any way because there is an NPC in a warehouse that can do it faster, better, and more efficiently than I can.
Nothing I do is now necessary for the success of the clan I am in. They don't need anything I make, or any materials I provide. Any "Great job, you are doing great, you are truly valuable to us.", I get is basically watered down and not genuine because I know I'm not needed.
That is how it would make me feel playing those two roles specifically. I may be the oddball out and the only one who would feel that way.
You are a staffer and you have a better understanding of the game at large.
I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."
Quote from: Saellyn on April 05, 2015, 12:09:08 PM
I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."
At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?
Yep, Saellyn has it right. Smoke 'em if you've got 'em. If you don't, you have a backup.
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 12:16:29 PM
Yep, Saellyn has it right. Smoke 'em if you've got 'em. If you don't, you have a backup.
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 12:14:11 PM
At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 12:14:11 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on April 05, 2015, 12:09:08 PM
I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."
At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?
When we make the assumption that player leaders are generally bad at being leaders, and when we ignore the many benefits to an improvement in order to focus on one possible detriment that should not happen due to player leaders generally not being bad at being leaders.
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 12:20:53 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 12:14:11 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on April 05, 2015, 12:09:08 PM
I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."
At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?
When we make the assumption that player leaders are generally bad at being leaders, and when we ignore the many benefits to an improvement in order to focus on one possible detriment that should not happen due to player leaders generally not being bad at being leaders.
If they are great leaders, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would never need the NPC to begin with? Isn't that sort of the measure of if they are "Capable of finding, hiring, keeping, and fostering a productive crew."?
Either way, I like the idea of it being left up to the players to decide, that way it is less work for staff. Still, I would like (and I'm sure you've thought of this) some check and balance in place to punish leaders who are going to the NPC vendor too often instead of running a productive capable crew.
Don't worry. We've got a pretty good handle on what (and how well) clan leaders should be doing. ;)
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 12:32:06 PM
Don't worry. We've got a pretty good handle on what (and how well) clan leaders should be doing. ;)
I believe you. I'm just giving you the player's point of view since we don't have the staff's inside info. :)
Since I imagine most clan leaders went into the role looking to entertain other people... I don't think you're going to need to worry a whole bunch, D-man. If Lord Templar Hardnose orders his knotty fuckwood bow and I tell Crafter Amos to make it, and he makes it, great. If he doesn't make it, I can go get a knotty fuckwood bow from the warehouse instead of trying to explain to Lord Templar Hardnose that while my merchant family has near limitless funds and ample resources, our one guy who can craft a knotty fuckwood bow stopped logging in.
Another point of interest from my own experience.
I have always felt playing a House hunter or crafter was sort of undermined by staff's policy of loading in items that could be crafted IC'ly.
Obviously, the system of having an NPC that will load in craftable items instantly doesn't appeal to me either.
Before, the only way I felt truly valuable as GOOD hunter or crafter in a House was I knew I could produce certain items and materials FASTER than the staff could load them in. I knew staff WOULD load them in, if I wasn't able to get it....but if I could, my clients were happy because they got it FASTER.
Now there is an NPC who can do it instantly across the board.
Before, my value as a PC hunter or crafter in a House came from my ability to give my clients things faster and make them happy faster. They loved me because I was more optimal. They loved me and valued me (and gave me a sense of accomplishment) because I was faster than them waiting on a VNPC/NPC/Staff to do it. That was my value.
Now, my client WILL KNOW they could get it faster off the NPC if I weren't around. The fact I exist is potentially actually slower for them. They could get whatever they want faster if I didn't exist and they know it.
I don't like that idea.
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 05, 2015, 12:35:31 PM
Since I imagine most clan leaders went into the role looking to entertain other people... I don't think you're going to need to worry a whole bunch, D-man. If Lord Templar Hardnose orders his knotty fuckwood bow and I tell Crafter Amos to make it, and he makes it, great. If he doesn't make it, I can go get a knotty fuckwood bow from the warehouse instead of trying to explain to Lord Templar Hardnose that while my merchant family has near limitless funds and ample resources, our one guy who can craft a knotty fuckwood bow stopped logging in.
I get that it will make templars and merchant House family/Agents happier.
I am worried about the affect on the grassroots producers and their sense of achievement.
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 12:32:58 PM
Quote from: Nyr on April 05, 2015, 12:32:06 PM
Don't worry. We've got a pretty good handle on what (and how well) clan leaders should be doing. ;)
I believe you. I'm just giving you the player's point of view since we don't have the staff's inside info. :)
I really think you shouldn't speak on behalf of "the players" since not all of us share your point of view. Here's mine, and my cred:
I've played a sponsored GMH merchant. I've played a promoted GMH junior merchant/agent trainee - twice. I've played countless GMH employees, mostly hunters, but some crafters, and a few that were a bit of both.
As someone with years of experience in all the GMHs available (plus a stint in Nenyuk FWIW), I can say with all confidence that I am SOOOO relieved this change is being made. It means that as a crafter, I won't feel like I have to spam-craft my way into branching just so that Lord Hardnose can get his pair of yellow gloves for his new aide some time before she gets assassinated within the next year.
As the merchant, I won't feel the pressure to hire Nimrod the Ninth just because he -has- already spam-crafted his way into branching and can make those yellow gloves, at the expense of my sanity for being stuck with another nimrod employee.
As Lord Hardnose, I won't have to not even bother trying to get something from Kadius, and just get my aide some cheap-ass pair of generic silk gloves from Independent Spam-Crafter #7777.
As a hard-working, already-branched master silkworker, I'll enjoy the privilege of knowing that my boss can count on me to make those gloves, and not have to resort to the ones made by "that VNPC Kadian who works for that VNPC merchant on the other side of the estate." This also gives me a damned good reason to be productive: if I'm not, I'll be replaced with that VNPC Kadian who works for that VNPC merchant on the other side of the estate, who gives his finished goods to the NPC merchant in the warehouse.
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 05, 2015, 12:35:31 PM
Since I imagine most clan leaders went into the role looking to entertain other people... I don't think you're going to need to worry a whole bunch, D-man. If Lord Templar Hardnose orders his knotty fuckwood bow and I tell Crafter Amos to make it, and he makes it, great. If he doesn't make it, I can go get a knotty fuckwood bow from the warehouse instead of trying to explain to Lord Templar Hardnose that while my merchant family has near limitless funds and ample resources, our one guy who can craft a knotty fuckwood bow stopped logging in.
I get that it will make templars and merchant House family/Agents happier.
I am worried about the affect on the grassroots producers and their sense of achievement.
I see where you're coming from, but I think it's less of an issue than you're making it out to be. When I played a GMH merchant, if no PCs were available to craft something, I ordered it through the NPC. I could
always get this stuff from an NPC and probably with less hassle than making sure the order gets to Crafter Amos and Hunter Malik. I would still go to Crafter Amos and Hunter Malik first any time they were available.
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 05, 2015, 12:35:31 PM
Since I imagine most clan leaders went into the role looking to entertain other people... I don't think you're going to need to worry a whole bunch, D-man. If Lord Templar Hardnose orders his knotty fuckwood bow and I tell Crafter Amos to make it, and he makes it, great. If he doesn't make it, I can go get a knotty fuckwood bow from the warehouse instead of trying to explain to Lord Templar Hardnose that while my merchant family has near limitless funds and ample resources, our one guy who can craft a knotty fuckwood bow stopped logging in.
I get that it will make templars and merchant House family/Agents happier.
I am worried about the affect on the grassroots producers and their sense of achievement.
If it really is a problem, I think this just produces more incentive for independent merchants and hunters to become more viable, no?
Quote from: Lizzie on April 05, 2015, 12:42:53 PM
I really think you shouldn't speak on behalf of "the players" since not all of us share your point of view.
I didn't mean to give you the impression I thought I spoke for every player on ArmageddonMUD.
Quote from: Semper on April 05, 2015, 12:44:56 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 12:38:57 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on April 05, 2015, 12:35:31 PM
Since I imagine most clan leaders went into the role looking to entertain other people... I don't think you're going to need to worry a whole bunch, D-man. If Lord Templar Hardnose orders his knotty fuckwood bow and I tell Crafter Amos to make it, and he makes it, great. If he doesn't make it, I can go get a knotty fuckwood bow from the warehouse instead of trying to explain to Lord Templar Hardnose that while my merchant family has near limitless funds and ample resources, our one guy who can craft a knotty fuckwood bow stopped logging in.
I get that it will make templars and merchant House family/Agents happier.
I am worried about the affect on the grassroots producers and their sense of achievement.
If it really is a problem, I think this just produces more incentive for independent merchants and hunters to become more viable, no?
More viable than an instant no-effort auto-NPC?
But that really isn't even the point. Independent groups shouldn't be able to compete with big Houses. It wouldn't make any sense if they could. In fact I like this facet of the idea. Big Houses should always be able to produce it better/faster/more efficiently.
I think most leaders would rather have happy, productive crews than a warehouse full of NPCs. They'd use the PCs first and an NPC only if they had to. And not simply if the PC logged out for the evening, but truly gave them a chance to do the work. Anyone hassling a sales rep IG for an item now, now, now is really missing the point of interaction, item values and production, I think.
The change is positive. From what I am understanding, it may even foster a wider understanding of recipes lost to the ages and items we haven't seen in a while? You'd still definitely want PC employees too, because mastercrafts and commissions, you know? Rare gathered or hunted items. Can't get that from a warehouse.
I didn't consider mastercrafts would still require hunters IC'ly to provide materials for.
Good point.
I still do not feel it is optimal. But, I also don't think I can offer anything constructive beyond the feedback I have already given on that front.
We will see how it works out. I would be curious to see how valuable and useful PC hunters and crafters feel in Houses a RL year after this goes in.
There you go staff. Kick ass. Take names. Nice.
Excellent changes. As Nyr said, why focus on one "possible" detriment when the changes are overwhelmingly positive?
I would recommend giving feedback when the change is actually live, rather than speculate idly in a way that seems somewhat dismissive of a change MANY in the Playerbase have been asking for.
Kudos Staff.
Quote from: Down Under on April 05, 2015, 01:41:52 PM
Excellent changes. As Nyr said, why focus on one "possible" detriment when the changes are overwhelmingly positive?
I mean, really, why focus and discuss a possible negative in a "discussion" thread? Thats definitely not what this thread is for.
Quote from: Riev on April 05, 2015, 02:10:40 PM
Quote from: Down Under on April 05, 2015, 01:41:52 PM
Excellent changes. As Nyr said, why focus on one "possible" detriment when the changes are overwhelmingly positive?
I mean, really, why focus and discuss a possible negative in a "discussion" thread? Thats definitely not what this thread is for.
Sarcasm is hardly a tool for debate.
It isn't even a 'possible negative' because the changes aren't even in game yet. I'd be curious to see if there is any actual detriment added to the game by these changes, and if it isn't just players trying to come up with something, because they like the sound of their own voice.
I'll debate when and if there's even a debate going on. It sounded like Desertman was saying "Hey, this is a good idea but I want to make sure it doesn't completely phase out this one thing I'm thinking of" and when Nyr said "No man we get it, we're good" that was kind of the end. Until someone mentioned it more and more.
Quote from: Down Under on April 05, 2015, 02:35:51 PM
Quote from: Riev on April 05, 2015, 02:10:40 PM
Quote from: Down Under on April 05, 2015, 01:41:52 PM
Excellent changes. As Nyr said, why focus on one "possible" detriment when the changes are overwhelmingly positive?
I mean, really, why focus and discuss a possible negative in a "discussion" thread? Thats definitely not what this thread is for.
Sarcasm is hardly a tool for debate.
It isn't even a 'possible negative' because the changes aren't even in game yet. I'd be curious to see if there is any actual detriment added to the game by these changes, and if it isn't just players trying to come up with something, because they like the sound of their own voice.
Don't be dense. It
is a possible possible negative. The changes crashing the game and making everything unplayable isa possible negative. You can debate whether or not Desertman is correct or not, but right now all you're saying is 'you guuuuuys don't be so meeean stop it okay?'
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 01:00:36 PM
We will see how it works out. I would be curious to see how valuable and useful PC hunters and crafters feel in Houses a RL year after this goes in.
Personally, I don't see why making these PC's feel useful is important, or even realistic to the setting. I view the argument of trying to de-virtualize the supply chain of a GMH as akin to making clans get their own food and water. Some people really think it would be cool, I think it would awful.
If you want to be super useful in Zalanthas, it generally means you're choosing to be so in a small pond. Join a start up indie group, be their crafter or hunter, and you're literally the backbone of their organization. Join a massive monopolistic super company like a GMH in one of those roles and you're just a cog in the wheel, completely replaceable. The reason to play in one of the GMH's in one of those roles is to have a fun ride, have the coolest gear, and in the case of crafters have literally the best facilities and tools in the world for your craft. Playing an indie makes you way more valuable to your org, but you don't get all the resources. It's playing the underdog, which can be a lot of fun too.
Not really.
I'm saying 'don't make problems out of thin air just because you can'. Let's see how it actually works IG before we pretend to know how it will work IG.
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 01:00:36 PM
We will see how it works out. I would be curious to see how valuable and useful PC hunters and crafters feel in Houses a RL year after this goes in.
While I understand where you are coming from, I would think that a hunter's job is to hunt so he should continue doing what he does regardless of what's needed or not on a virtual and realistic basis. Unless a hunter is being paid per hides or shells, I don't really see what it matters to him and the House if he brings stuff that isn't needed.. The merchant PC can just junk it all or sell it or whatever and the hunter continues to receive his pay as normal..
Unless you mean that if the House doesn't have any decent hunters then they shouldn't be able to produce the items they want, but that's always been a "problem" with Arm, you gotta play/pretend that you're just a hunter among hundreds and if there's no hunter around, there's probably tons of virtual ones.
So hunters will still hunt regardless of if they're needed or not, but let's be honest, until Talia the rich Fme comes along and demands a full suit of quirri leathers, hunter PCs have never really been -crucial- to the success of a PC merchant.
These seriously excite me.
How will you be recruiting for Builder roles?
If we don't have a "Build the most stupid room you could possibly think of "contest I'm going to be severely disappointed.
I think they already do, and the winning room id then awarded to be the newest staffer's personal studio.
Quote from: Patuk on April 05, 2015, 04:28:24 PM
I think they already do, and the winning room id then awarded to be the newest staffer's personal studio.
I'm claiming the rainbow fire hut.
Quote from: Kol on April 05, 2015, 03:37:26 PM
How will you be recruiting for Builder roles?
We will probably need to develop something similar to a staff application process and put out calls for it periodically. It would probably be aimed at availability, world interests, writing style/skill, communication/contribution history, and familiarity/experience with the game. The most important parts of any application (staff app, role app, builder app) would be who it is from and how they communicate their ideas.
Man, that's a great idea. First thing I'm doing is hijacking a builder to make my crappy workrooms better.
Quote from: Cavaticus on April 05, 2015, 04:37:10 PM
Man, that's a great idea. First thing I'm doing is hijacking a builder to make my crappy workrooms better.
priorities amirite
Does this mean I get to piss everyone off being on staff?
Quote from: Talia on April 05, 2015, 04:40:14 PM
priorities amirite
What are priorities?
Also, I am going to sneak in under the guise of building what they told me to, and then I'm going to build a giant inflatable duck that you can go inside like a castle and it has a light-up disco floor, accessible via rope ladder. Also, there's an ankheg inside.
"Addition of NPCs in GMH Warehouses loaded with all stock items to reduce amount or item ordering".
Omg yes yes yes. Thankyou. Now you have convinced me to store and go back to GMH ;D
Seriously though. The whole idea for the thread of changes going in and planned for the future is a great idea. Its really encouraging for me as a player to see plans the Staff have and some idea whats ahead.
Quote from: wizturbo on April 05, 2015, 02:58:26 PM
Quote from: Desertman on April 05, 2015, 01:00:36 PM
We will see how it works out. I would be curious to see how valuable and useful PC hunters and crafters feel in Houses a RL year after this goes in.
Personally, I don't see why making these PC's feel useful is important, or even realistic to the setting.
I agree with you in the sense that IC'ly it makes a ton of sense. I'm right there with you.
My only concern is how much fun it is going to be for the players of crafters, and probably more so hunters, to know nothing they do matters/matters even less than it used to in a House.
That's one reason I always found it difficult to play a House hunter myself. I knew for a fact that if I was there or not orders would still get filled. My main value? If I was good at what I did, I could get it in faster than a staff-loaded item.
What's my value now? There's an NPC that will do it with zero delay to the client. In fact, me being there may actually make orders slower for clients....and they now know that. Without a group of hunters, the merchant in question has a perfectly valid excuse for insta-loading their orders.
But, I'm a very "accomplishment" driven player. I like to know I am accomplishing something useful to the group I am with. I fully understand I may be the only one with this concern. I'm just saying, it is a concern for me. (And possibly people who have my play preference.)
It is also a reason, in my opinion, why you see some groups flourish in game and some Houses often times have trouble maintaining an active steady flow of lower-end hunters/crafters. I know it's why they don't see players like me. I feel this may very well compound that problem.
Nice, a builder role. Sign me up.
Quote from: manonfire on April 06, 2015, 10:09:46 AM
Nice, a builder role. Sign me up.
ok, you are building latrines, I want 10 by tonight or you're fired
Quote from: Nyr on April 06, 2015, 10:11:31 AM
Quote from: manonfire on April 06, 2015, 10:09:46 AM
Nice, a builder role. Sign me up.
ok, you are building latrines, I want 10 by tonight or you're fired
Tonight is unrealistic, so I'm gonna self-enforce a deadline based on typical Armageddon turnaround times and say I'll have these for you by the end of the summer.
#rekt
#latrined
:)
:'(
Builder role sounds interesting but I am concerned about the ability of someone in that role to work on creative projects of their own. Can they log in to the game port and possess limited views and commands so that they can accomplish their jobs? If they're unable to log in to the game port and are instead simply fulfilling the writing portion of requests (while the storytellers continue to be the ones to actually implement) how would that actually save time that a submissions call thread would not?
How would a builder be able to, say, tackle the mapping inconsistencies of the Red Desert and add air rooms, or go through the typo and bug list, and/or actually build the items they are creating, if they're unable to log in to the game port? How would they go through the shops of a certain area and balance out what is for sale and what is not, and for what prices, etc?
Things like that are what I envision a builder role being responsible for - things that are time consuming but add a lot of value to the every day gameworld experience. Yes, builders would need to propose projects and get sign-off and approval to ensure consistency, but those are the things that I see a builder doing that a storyteller would likely not have the time to devote their day to day energy to.
In short, from the phrasing of the announcement, I feel like this is going to be a glorified bureaucratic position which doesn't necessarily add anything of substantial value.
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 10:31:45 AM
If they're unable to log in to the game port and are instead simply fulfilling the writing portion of requests (while the storytellers continue to be the ones to actually implement) how would that actually save time that a submissions call thread would not?
This be my questions 2.
Isn't there an exact gameworld copy that they use to port changes over after testing?
I do see Dman's point, and if I may summarize it a bit:
Quote
Even without the change, a hunter in a GMH felt a bit like a flavour role; compared to independent hunters, a GMH hunter doesn't need to hunt, neither (a) to provide for themselves nor (b) to provide for their crafts/merchants. The move to NPCs would just amplify this feeling.
I think this might be right but I wonder if it is a bad thing. After all, there's a lot more plot-wise going on in a GMH than hunting - and in fact the basic "go hunt me a tok hide" plot gets dull pretty fast. Hence, the change might encourage GMH plots to move in the other direction (whatever they are).
I think this might be worth a thread of its own, frankly, so it doesn't get confused with the awesomeness of the proposed changes, because let's be honest: on a whole, it is far more frustrating to be stuck in the "my lord ordered that fancy handkerchief three years ago, you are telling me you haven't been able to get the material for it yet" plot.
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 10:31:45 AM
Builder role sounds interesting but I am concerned about the ability of someone in that role to work on creative projects of their own. Can they log in to the game port and possess limited views and commands so that they can accomplish their jobs? If they're unable to log in to the game port and are instead simply fulfilling the writing portion of requests (while the storytellers continue to be the ones to actually implement) how would that actually save time that a submissions call thread would not?
How would a builder be able to, say, tackle the mapping inconsistencies of the Red Desert and add air rooms, or go through the typo and bug list, and/or actually build the items they are creating, if they're unable to log in to the game port? How would they go through the shops of a certain area and balance out what is for sale and what is not, and for what prices, etc?
Things like that are what I envision a builder role being responsible for - things that are time consuming but add a lot of value to the every day gameworld experience. Yes, builders would need to propose projects and get sign-off and approval to ensure consistency, but those are the things that I see a builder doing that a storyteller would likely not have the time to devote their day to day energy to.
In short, from the phrasing of the announcement, I feel like this is going to be a glorified bureaucratic position which doesn't necessarily add anything of substantial value.
Since a builder will still be a player in all senses, there needs to be limitations in what a player builder has access to. They will be able to log into the port but their job will not be to go out and fix things they see are problems, but instead to take a project and build that/those projects. This could be small scale or large scale depending on the building need. Your examples of fixing shop prices would not be something to which the builder role would be tasked.
I'd personally view a builder role as one where if you are the creative writing sort you could make permanent additions to the game in terms of rooms, objects and NPC without having to give up your player status. To me this gives those inclined toward creative writing the ability to create and allows Storyteller staff more time to do things like plots and animations. I would call that substantial value.
I'm glad they will at least be able to build the items and rooms in the game port themselves. That's good.
I'm disappointed to hear that they won't be able to suggest projects of their own however. To my mind, things like market economy and mapping inconsistencies are the sort of things that need attention more than adding in new objects - because they will directly impact everyone's day to day gaming experience.
If storytellers don't have time, and builders are unable to work on them, how will they ever get done?
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 10:31:45 AM
Can they log in to the game port and possess limited views and commands so that they can accomplish their jobs?
Yes. They'd have their own zone to build in and be able to move around/do what was needed there, talk via a new channel to other staff, but not see who all is in-game and all that because that isn't related to the task of building.
QuoteHow would a builder be able to, say, tackle the mapping inconsistencies of the Red Desert and add air rooms, or go through the typo and bug list, and/or actually build the items they are creating, if they're unable to log in to the game port?
If this was a project selected to be sent over to builders to handle...one specifically for dealing with these mapping inconsistencies...then that's a possibility. There is no such project at this point as this is mostly focused on new and necessary building projects at this time. Adding air rooms? That's a possibility, though again only with a project. Typo/bug list, no, Builders would not be doing that (I posted earlier about that). Yes, they can build the items they are creating. Yes, they can log into the game port.
QuoteHow would they go through the shops of a certain area and balance out what is for sale and what is not, and for what prices, etc?
They would not, this is not in builder purview at this time. Conversely, should it become a project--IE, we need to balance all of these shops--then yes, it might be.
We are at early stages on this. We are in the process of reviewing what other things we could do, such as releasing bugs/typos to a builder role in batches. For instance, one such idea would be just having a monthly session to tackle that (builders included) for about an hour, delegating out the work that is there. Rights can be granted for the proper zones at that time, then revoked after it is done.
It may have been asked, I apologize if so. It's early, and my skim didn't catch it.
There have been a bunch of ideas in the past in regards to itemization where basically, it was a huge task due to having to go through and revamp a huge amount of items (i.e. additional item flags or a new way they interact, adding a new 'field' to the item). Would builders be able to go through and do that? Are 'large scale' item changes and rebalances and the sort now something we have manpower for, or is the builder mostly limited to a certain 'sphere' that broad access to item files is not a part of?
We were not intending to do anything like builder roles for the game until players suggested it. We had issues with large parts of the suggestions players had for builder roles. After discussion, we came up with a compromise on it to start things out. In general, there are players that want to help out with the task of building things...but do not have the time or inclination to be a full-time staff member that supports players directly. In general, we on staff are okay with builder roles that do just that. We've made several other changes, all geared towards freeing up staff time so that it can be focused more on plotting and overall game development. This is one of them, and it is not a panacea all by itself (though it is definitely a help). I'll explain some possibilities, using the things we've mentioned already as changes.
Right now: I would tend towards focusing my efforts on plots utilizing existing things. Anything new required to be built takes time away from me working on the plot, the animation part, etc. As a result, I'm spending much more time in the planning stages, getting things built, etc, and this creates time lag between myself and any player efforts I want to support. We have an event coming up and I prep for it and don't animate because I need to prep the building work. I also need to do some testing (which can't be avoided even with a builder role addition). I get it built, I get it tested, and I've in turn also had to support clans with existing stuff, or feel rushed through the whole process to get this knocked out because of all of this other stuff. I may have clannies reporting that don't need to, but we've been pushing how important reports are for things, so that sucks...I'll spend some time working on that. I've got reimbursement requests (ugh) to handle, or that anyone could handle, really, but we just crashed LAST week and I handled some, so I don't want to do it again, I've got other things to do. I've got some mastercrafts waiting for my team, and I really should do them, they're assigned to me, and I've put it off as long as I could for now. (If I'm an admin filling in to do the work of a storyteller because my team is a bit short-staffed due to some RL stuff, then I'm also responsible for doing account notes requests, special application reviews, description changes, and the like...plus everything else I mentioned.) OK, so I've put off everything as much as I can--it's time to do the event. I log in for hours and have a great time, making all of the pieces that I've set in motion actually do what they're supposed to do, and see what happens when the players do funny, weird, or stupid stuff--and it's fun. A bit on the exhausted side, I tuck in. I get done with the event, we get a few kudos, and then...we're needing to plan another. It may need building effort. Truthfully, it could use it. But that takes time. Anything new required to be built takes time away...
This is the lag I'm talking about: a palpable distance between planning stages, building stages, and actual plot supported from staff hitting the ground and affecting players. There's definitely some frustration there.
Enter character report templates and changes, account notes/karma review changes, zone saves to all but eliminate reimbursements, mastercraft process changes, description tool update, and builder roles.
Now I take my plot and review what building I need: I need 4 NPCs, and about 8 rooms. We're doing something like a dungeon crawl sort of event. I take the building work and if possible, obfuscate what I can in terms of what the plot is (though in reality, I'm sure a clever, involved builder could figure it out), then go to a builder once I'm sure the plot is approved. "Here's my ideas on this, in general...looking for a cave, maybe a hidden passage or two. Also need some undead, rotting corpse sort of creatures. Any questions?" Builder asks questions, I answer, and we settle on timetable: they have enough time to probably knock this out in a couple of weeks. Awesome. I sit on this information and go back to my clan stuff. My clannies report less often and use a template, so I'm not getting inundated with unnecessary minion weekly reports. They're putting more info in their bios, which is great if I do need that information. I check on a few character bios for a guy that is curious about the format and I give him feedback. I plan a preliminary animation for the clan, giving them some details about the cave of d00mzorz by animating a generic scout-type/guard-type NPC in the House to relay his tale. I am also able to go take some time and devote it to a player plot that is going on in another clan that I'm involved with, and I give a little flavor animation. Mastercrafts...I check the queue, and someone else actually has been assigned the one I would normally have felt guilty about not doing. Hmm, but I've got another one, let me review it--ah, they've followed the new guidelines and procedures, and it's fairly easy to do. I'll knock that out now. Oh, I'm an admin, let me check the queue for desc changes. Now I just check to see if they are online...and rather than wait for a coordinated time...I just knock it out if they are online or offline. I've done tangible work, helped players out, and I'm using less time than before to do it all, and the animations matter--players like them, I like doing them. Hell, may as well look over at the queue again...nope, looks good. No reimbursements except for this one guy that did a striptease in the 2 minute window. I'll knock that one out. I'll make an update post for the IDB for the metaclan group. Builder gets done two weeks later, I look over the stuff, it looks good, we knock out the plot, and we're golden. I'm less stressed because of everything that has been done (I'm less stressed now just thinking about it).
On the other hand, builders are still playing, not seeing the staff side of plots apart from anything they help build directly, and they are directly benefiting the game.
It's not all plot-based stuff, either, nor is it necessarily "new items". Honestly, I'm surprised by how fast this has moved. In less than a month, we've gone from "not thinking about this idea, at all" to having the rank coded and in-game now and tested successfully (barring a few tweaks needed) as well as documentation on room building/etc moving over from old flat files to the Builder IDB section. We'll need to start slowly and see how this works out; in general, we've got some ideas for ways to integrate more things that the builder role can do without necessarily being "staff." Let's get past implementation first though.
Quote from: Armaddict on April 06, 2015, 11:46:27 AM
It may have been asked, I apologize if so. It's early, and my skim didn't catch it.
There have been a bunch of ideas in the past in regards to itemization where basically, it was a huge task due to having to go through and revamp a huge amount of items (i.e. additional item flags or a new way they interact, adding a new 'field' to the item). Would builders be able to go through and do that? Are 'large scale' item changes and rebalances and the sort now something we have manpower for, or is the builder mostly limited to a certain 'sphere' that broad access to item files is not a part of?
We actually have a scripting tool that fixes crap like that now. It has been around for years, and can be modified fairly easily.
Quote from: Nyr on April 06, 2015, 12:34:04 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on April 06, 2015, 11:46:27 AM
It may have been asked, I apologize if so. It's early, and my skim didn't catch it.
There have been a bunch of ideas in the past in regards to itemization where basically, it was a huge task due to having to go through and revamp a huge amount of items (i.e. additional item flags or a new way they interact, adding a new 'field' to the item). Would builders be able to go through and do that? Are 'large scale' item changes and rebalances and the sort now something we have manpower for, or is the builder mostly limited to a certain 'sphere' that broad access to item files is not a part of?
We actually have a scripting tool that fixes crap like that now. It has been around for years, and can be modified fairly easily.
Oh. In that case I need this done and this and this and this and this and this and this and this is a good idea and we should do this and then that one item this and you guys aren't doing this nearly fast enough.
I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.
Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.
Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with
- to let them suggest projects of their own (and not make the approval process a huge hassle).
I guess we will see!
That kind of sounds like a recipe for people to just build waterfalls for their chosen clans, Delirium.
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 12:50:50 PM
I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.
Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.
Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with
That's the idea behind the board we've created.
QuoteProject List
This Board is for Armageddon Staff to post Current Building Projects available for Builder Assignments.
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 12:50:50 PM
I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.
Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.
Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with
- to let them suggest projects of their own (and not make the approval process a huge hassle).
I guess we will see!
Why would it cause quick turnover and/or burnout? I'm going to guess that Staff are going to pick a few people and make a "list" of builders and then just offers the project to the person who wants to do it.
Kinda like we have once in a while, like a call for descs? It seems like many are interested in that and they love writing for the sake of writing.
I mean, I don't really see Staff as making it so that builders have to constantly work on the projects they are given or else.
I thoroughly approve of the limited scope of the new builder role. If I wanted to do animations or have to worry about having my immersion destroyed by knowledge of plot sensitive IC info, I'd just apply for staff.
Then again, I'm a geek for writing descriptions, so that kind of thing is its own reward for me.
Edit: To fix phone-posting problems of spelling and grammar.
I would've put the board thingy in my example but it's so new I didn't know it was there until Delirium asked. Sorry about that!
Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 06, 2015, 12:52:10 PM
That kind of sounds like a recipe for people to just build waterfalls for their chosen clans, Delirium.
Thus the approval process (thereby vetting that the project is actually needed). ::)
Quote from: Malken on April 06, 2015, 12:55:20 PM
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 12:50:50 PM
I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.
Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.
Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with
- to let them suggest projects of their own (and not make the approval process a huge hassle).
I guess we will see!
Why would it cause quick turnover and/or burnout? I'm going to guess that Staff are going to pick a few people and make a "list" of builders and then just offers the project to the person who wants to do it.
Kinda like we have once in a while, like a call for descs? It seems like many are interested in that and they love writing for the sake of writing.
I mean, I don't really see Staff as making it so that builders have to constantly work on the projects they are given or else.
Because being assigned something to work on and choosing to work on something are two very different things in the long-term.
It sounds like most of my concerns have been answered. Which is good.
I'm not down on the idea of this, I am concerned about the implementation of it. I want to see this succeed; better to poke holes in it now than later.
The way we do it staff-side is that projects get pre-discussed, usually, with whomever would be responsible for approving them. (So, a Storyteller talks to their Admin or to a Producer; an Admin talks to a Producer.) Then after a bit of discussion the project leader puts together an official proposal (which is not really a big deal, I've written bunches of them, they take me an hour or so usually). Then there's discussion amongst all staff who want to participate in that, then there's a go/no-go on the project. It's approximately the way a project would be proposed and approved in a real-world workplace, with perhaps a bit more written documentation since we do everything in text.
After that, if someone wants to volunteer for a project, they can. If no one volunteers, then it's up to the project leader(s) to get it done. But usually there is some help forthcoming. And that's where Builders will come in, for projects that require building. If they want to volunteer, cool; if not, OK. We don't assign staff to projects and plots they don't want to work on. Nor do we get punitive with people if they can't get something finished in a particular timeframe, or if their availability dips for a while.
I don't see projects and plots as "someone else's creative work." I see them as collaborative efforts. In fact, I can't think of a plot or project that I've worked on or been the nominal leader of that hasn't sprung from an impromptu brainstorming session and/or been very heavily modified by the ideas of others later; and it requires staff from all over the game to make big RPTs happen. I don't think any of us really care who gets the specific credit when something awesome gets done for the game. The Builders will be part of this team, part of the overall collaborative effort, while still getting to enjoy the benefits of being "just players."
I like the idea of a builder.
It'd be good if each individual zone in the game world had a knowledgeable staff member that looked over and maintained it, making sure it worked as intended, meshing with the rest of the game world and taking steps to improve it when desired. Does staff have this kind of thing? Would this be maybe be something builders might do?
As far as building and creativity (and for pretty much everything) I believe it works best when the creators are inspired and acting out of a sense of love for the project rather than out of a sense of duty to a project. So being assigned is probably not as good as having builders that submit ideas that can be approved and modified to fit the full vision of the game as a whole.
Do builders get creative control over what they're building? For example what if someone were to be building a new city or city state, it'd be more effective if they understood the culture and setting implicitly. Who better to do this than the person creating the culture and documents to go along with the new creation, rather than the person building the coded constructs in the game world.
If builders don't have creative control, I think that'd be better for the people with that creative control to instead be doing the building.
>.> So... Selfish question - I have an account notes request in right now that I've been waiting on for a while expecting one of those fancy karma reviews. Will I still get a karma review with it, or do I need to submit a new request for that?
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 06, 2015, 02:38:44 PM
If builders don't have creative control, I think that'd be better for the people with that creative control to instead be doing the building.
I don't really know what this means. In a sense, everyone on staff has "creative control." In another sense, no one does, because we're working on a big project together (the game) and as I said, that's collaborative.
I don't think the best use of my time is to spend all of it building shit. But I can't run the plots I want to, or finish the projects that I want to roll out, without some building getting done. I currently do some of it, the Storytellers in my clan group do some of it, now we'll have support from Builders doing some of it.
The best use of my time, as an Admin, is to run regional plots and coordinate stuff between individual clans and clan groups. That provides the most bang-for-buck in terms of fun in the game at the player level.
I guess I just don't really understand the perspective of some players here. There seems to be an assumption that builders will be creatively stifled. I don't get it.
Quote from: bcw81 on April 06, 2015, 02:43:54 PM
>.> So... Selfish question - I have an account notes request in right now that I've been waiting on for a while expecting one of those fancy karma reviews. Will I still get a karma review with it, or do I need to submit a new request for that?
If you've got one in queue, we won't be jerks about it and make you put in something else. Don't sweat it.
Quote from: Talia on April 06, 2015, 02:48:45 PM
I guess I just don't really understand the perspective of some players here. There seems to be an assumption that builders will be creatively stifled. I don't get it.
I can definitely understand this sentiment, but I think Nyr debunked the assumption that was raising that concern. If you were just "assigned" material to create, your creativity wouldn't really be allowed to flow how you would like it, and you may have to just discard or ignore your ideas, etc, because you are operating within someone else's creative box. I think the debunk comes in that, with the board, the builders can choose what they are going to work on. And really, for something that tries to retain a high level of quality, this is the way it should be. Otherwise you would have a QA nightmare on your hands with probably about a 50% output, and it would create more work than it saved (speaking from the experience of doing this exact thing elsewhere).
I think the idea is great, and I hope to get involved. If I don't like the options before me, I just won't do any of them. Because ultimately if a builder (this applies to anything, really) is not inspired for their project, they aren't going to produce maximum quality work anyhow. This psychological reality is what has created the "results oriented work environment" in development land. Let people work when they are "inspired" to do so, and on projects that they are passionate about. That's how a business (or in this case, MUD) gets their best output.
I think that was the concern being raised, but I feel like it's fairly addressed.
^ I was going to respond, but Jeax beat me to it - that was exactly my concern and I feel that it's been addressed.
Quote from: Talia on April 06, 2015, 02:48:45 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 06, 2015, 02:38:44 PM
If builders don't have creative control, I think that'd be better for the people with that creative control to instead be doing the building.
I don't really know what this means. In a sense, everyone on staff has "creative control." In another sense, no one does, because we're working on a big project together (the game) and as I said, that's collaborative.
I don't think the best use of my time is to spend all of it building shit. But I can't run the plots I want to, or finish the projects that I want to roll out, without some building getting done. I currently do some of it, the Storytellers in my clan group do some of it, now we'll have support from Builders doing some of it.
The best use of my time, as an Admin, is to run regional plots and coordinate stuff between individual clans and clan groups. That provides the most bang-for-buck in terms of fun in the game at the player level.
I guess I just don't really understand the perspective of some players here. There seems to be an assumption that builders will be creatively stifled. I don't get it.
Will builders be creating what they want, their own creations, or will they be creating what someone else wants, the creations of someone else?
I also like the volunteer concept, because it will naturally de-prioritize any ideas that people don't get fired up about.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 06, 2015, 03:22:18 PM
Will builders be creating what they want, their own creations, or will they be creating what someone else wants, the creations of someone else?
Both! It sounds like you'll get a list of things that you can pick from that other people want, and the one you want to work on is the one you work on.
I do still have one question that didn't get addressed (perhaps because you're still figuring it out! That's fine):
Will builders be able to suggest projects where they see a need, or will they be limited to choosing from ST/Admin-posted assignments?
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 06, 2015, 03:22:18 PM
Will builders be creating what they want, their own creations, or will they be creating what someone else wants, the creations of someone else?
Builder summary as I see it having read this thread:
- Builders are volunteers with severely limited access to staff tools, and no involvement in plot-lines, observing players or animating NPCs.
- Will assist staff in building rooms, items, NPCs and other stuff behind the scenes.
- Access to specific zones/item lists/etc will be turned on and off by project.
- Work will be farmed out via an internal forum where builders can volunteer for projects staff have approved through their go/no-go process.
- Projects of this nature will have no builder "owner", it's a collaborative process with staff oversight.
I'm speculating here, but I assume builders (as well as players and staff) can suggest projects to undergo this "Go/No-go" process by using the idea command or through the request tool as has been the case for years. If the project is approved, it'll show up on the builder forums and people can volunteer to flesh it out. Example: You think it would be cool if a certain room had some custom echos. You suggest it via the request tool, staff agree it would be cool and add it to the builder forums as an open project. You can volunteer to that project and contribute, along with others, in a collaborative process.
Since any addition seems like it has to go through the official staff 'project' format, I think a staffer would have to be willing to take lead on a given suggested project.
I would have absolutely no problem being a Builder and not proposing projects of my own, or only working on ST/Admin/Producer projects. I like writing descriptions (Call it the Dungeon Master Syndrome) of both NPCs and Rooms/Areas. I find creativity comes from any proposition, not just the ones I have agency with.
From what I've read in a quick skim, it seems Builders are more to take some weight of the time to create rooms, NPC's and items needed for plots, as well as Mastercrafts etc.
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 03:31:45 PM
Will builders be able to suggest projects where they see a need, or will they be limited to choosing from ST/Admin-posted assignments?
I don't think we really have an official answer for this, or at least I haven't seen one staff-side. However, extrapolating from some other policies and habits we do have in place:
-- Storytellers have an initial probation period of 3 months, during which they cannot make any project or plot proposals. I assume the same will be true of Builders for at least an initial period.
-- Proposals almost always come out of discussion with other staff, or are discussed with other staff before the proposal is written. That is, there's an ongoing relationship happening between staff and ideas for the game are part of that. Since Builders will have access to discussion with staff, both in game and on the IDB, they will now be part of that flow of ideas.
-- If a particular Builder works to create relationships with staff, and understands how to work effectively as part of that team, I can see a Builder throwing an idea to a Storyteller or Admin and saying, "Would this fit in with your other current stuff, can we do this?" If it's seen as a fit, then the proposal would get made by the staffer, and the Builder would participate in the project. Relationships go a really long way to getting stuff done; we don't each work in a vacuum.
-- If Builders can independently make project proposals, they would still need to go through an approval process, and potential rejection is something that Builders will have to deal with. Everyone on staff who makes proposals at some time experiences the rejection of a proposal.
Just a note: We don't use the request tool or ideas in game as part of our project process. That primarily happens through the IDB, which Builders will have access to in part.
Re: the building of unique(ish) items by builders.
Have you looked through the mastercraft file for approved, player submitted gear that is only craftable by a deceased player? That might be a wealth of (old) cool items ready to roll right on into storylines with minimal effort required by staff to make use of them.
what about magick stuff can builders make a giant glowing sword of doom??
Quote from: MeTekillot on April 06, 2015, 04:31:21 PM
what about magick stuff can builders make a giant glowing sword of doom??
I'm looking forward to the floating water rock paradise made by a Viv and Ruk.
Quote from: whitt on April 06, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
Have you looked through the mastercraft file for approved, player submitted gear that is only craftable by a deceased player? That might be a wealth of (old) cool items ready to roll right on into storylines with minimal effort required by staff to make use of them.
We do look in the database for suitable objects, rooms, and NPCs that already exist when we are working on plots. Sometimes we can find usable stuff, sometimes not. For example, when Italis and I were working on the Ratsucker plot in 2012, we wanted desiccated corpses that we could leave around Allanak for PCs to find. Since there wasn't anything like that already in the database, we needed to build new objects. And although, in a sense, all plots are MacGuffin plots, I'm not really that interested in running plots that are totally centered around MacGuffins, so I don't spend much time trolling the database for old cool items. (Also, honestly, I don't really think there are as many as players think there are.)
There's a database....
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb317/Hianastu/61016963_zpscewwgq7r.jpg)
Thank you for that detailed and thoughtful response, Talia.
It sounds like the builder role is certainly worth giving a shot if you're interested in contributing to the game in that fashion.
Granted, I would prefer to help mend building-related issues that I've been seeing for years. I would likely enjoy building plot-related items as well, as that would translate to creating more fun for players to enjoy in the short-term, but I am inevitably a big picture thinker that wants to fix nitty-gritty and/or fundamental issues instead of applying makeup.
How that translates to being able to enjoy the builder role, I'm not sure, and I suspect the best way to find out would be to try it and see.
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 05:18:56 PM
Thank you for that detailed and thoughtful response, Talia.
How that translates to being able to enjoy the builder role, I'm not sure, and I suspect the best way to find out would be to try it and see.
Quote from: Talia on April 06, 2015, 04:14:27 PM
-- Storytellers have an initial probation period of 3 months, during which they cannot make any project or plot proposals. I assume the same will be true of Builders for at least an initial period.
Just a note: We don't use the request tool or ideas in game as part of our project process. That primarily happens through the IDB, which Builders will have access to in part.
I would assume you could propose it after a probation period.
Unless you're talking about coding, which is a different ballgame...
Re: Builders - Love it. A long time coming and I'm glad to see our current staff implementing it effectivly.
Re: ArmageddonMud GDB account - Love it. Such a simple idea, that I can't believe was never thought of before!
Re: fixing staff members zone privilages - I always found it very frustrating when there was an item you wanted but didn't have the privs to load it. Great fix.
Re: Zone changes to reduce reimbursements - Another great change. Anything that reduces staff workload and player frustration is a great change.
Re: Allowing PC descriptions to be changed online. Very helpful for plots that need it. Yay.
Re: GMH warehouse changes. I'm really glad you guys have a handle on how it will work! :)
As always, thanks for your hard work for the enjoyment of the players.
Quote from: Kol on April 06, 2015, 05:24:43 PM
I would assume you could propose it after a probation period.
Unless you're talking about coding, which is a different ballgame...
Coding is an entirely different ballgame of wax. The majority of staff never touch the code. So yeah, the Builder position has nothing to do with code, although understanding basic stuff about code is helpful.
As I said--I don't think it's been determined whether or not Builders will be able to make proposals. Thus, I wouldn't assume anything. But as I explained, does that mean there is no way at all for a Builder to put ideas out there to staff? Of course not, since it's all about relationships. (Really, I can't emphasize enough how important relationships are to the well-oiled staff machine.)
My bad. I was assuming the good relationship.
I'll listen to S.L Jackson in future. :D
Quote from: Talia on April 06, 2015, 05:35:20 PM
(Really, I can't emphasize enough how important relationships are to the well-oiled staff machine.)
I doubt that the same level of relationship is needed for a builder. You say, "build this", and the builder goes off and builds this or not. If not, say goodbye and sign up another builder. Since the former builder is not really in the loop, game-wise, no harm done.
My concern here is that people who delight in socializing and pleasing others won't necessarily be the best builders or coders. That's not what they get their rewards from. Don't cripple the project before it begins, please.
(As for coding, is DMPL or some equivalent still around? It would be great if that could fall into the builder realm too, but even just the room/object/mob stuff is good).
Quote from: Eyeball on April 06, 2015, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: Talia on April 06, 2015, 05:35:20 PM
(Really, I can't emphasize enough how important relationships are to the well-oiled staff machine.)
I doubt that the same level of relationship is needed for a builder. You say, "build this", and the builder goes off and builds this or not. If not, say goodbye and sign up another builder. Since the former builder is not really in the loop, game-wise, no harm done.
My concern here is that people who delight in socializing and pleasing others won't necessarily be the best builders or coders. That's not what they get their rewards from. Don't cripple the project before it begins, please.
(As for coding, is DMPL or some equivalent still around? It would be great if that could fall into the builder realm too, but even just the room/object/mob stuff is good).
I think Talia was responding to wheather builder can propose projects of their own. If they have a good relationship with staff, then that might be a possibility. That's my take on it at least.
Just a note - I've had a busy day but I'm going to post a synopsis explaining the process and limitations of the Builder Role here very shortly! Sorry for the delay.
Well, I certainly don't think the inherent worth of a proposal should be tied to the author's ability to play social politics, but I also don't think that's how it was meant.
More that if you're not an asshole, show an understanding of the game's needs, and work well with others, you can build up the necessary trust.
I think that's perfectly reasonable.
Quote from: Delirium on April 06, 2015, 05:54:48 PM
Well, I certainly don't think the inherent worth of a proposal should be tied to the author's ability to play social politics, but I also don't think that's how it was meant.
More that if you're not an asshole, show an understanding of the game's needs, and work well with others, you can build up the necessary trust.
I think that's perfectly reasonable.
This is basically what I meant. It's akin to Storytellers who are on probation--they can't make proposals, but they can certainly chat about ideas with more senior Storytellers, or with Admins/Producers, and proposals do come out of that. The "Halloween" plot we did last year in Allanak was the result of just that sort of collaboration, because Cerys and Eukelade and I were hanging around and saying, "Wouldn't it be fun to..." Then Cerys made the proposal because she wasn't on probation.
I'm just glad to see the builder role become a thing. More time for storytellers to eat brains, animate and cause general mayhem, which will lead to happier staff... But honestly I think the players are going to get more out of this than the staff.
I think many players have a deep desire to contribute and make a lasting impact on this game they love so much, and doing so in-character has been the only avenue to do so in the past. Most roles in Zalanthas do not result in lasting impacts, that's how Zalanthas is...you live, die and are forgotten in the sands of time. This lets players scratch that itch to leave a legacy, which i think will lead to happier players who are less prone to frustration due to IC events.
I'm coming late to the party here, and my fellow staff members have addressed some of the questions about the Builder role, but I'll make another post with a short recap that hopefully will clarify things a little. Some of what I'm writing may contradict information already given. Please forgive us, this has been a rapidly evolving conversation/project and things have been changing as we've been experimenting with different ideas and realized that certain things won't work in ways we've envisoned. Consider this post the 'official' where we're at 'right now'.
First - As mentioned we never intended to create this kind of role. We are moving forward with it based on player suggestions that indicated that there were people amongst that playerbase that were interested in a role that was:
- Not a full-fledged staff role
- Allowed them to contribute
- Were interested in building
- Were data oriented/detail oriented
- Didn't mind 'drudge work'
- Wanted to volunteer some time
- Didn't want to join staff and have the all the secrets revealed, but wanted to do more
And a whole host of other types of phrases which we boiled down into: Builder Role.
Below is a brief explanation about the Builder Role. Please bear in mind that we are just starting out here. Things may change. Initially we are starting SMALL. This means 2 or 3 Builders only. We're going to be testing things. We're going to be seeing how this works. We may change things based on that, in fact I fully expect that there will be alterations to both the process of how we do the nitty gritty of the role, and perhaps some of the overall vision for the role. But initially this is how we see things moving forward.
This role may not fulfill the wants and desires of everyone. Just like the current Staffing roles do not. But there may be some players out there that this Role resonates for. If so, I hope to have finished up the testing that I need to do to get this role actionable, as well as completed my work on documentation by this weekend. So expect to see an announcement about applications by then.
What is the Builder Role?
The Builder is a volunteer Role. It is NOT a staff position. This role will not be have access to the Staff Documentation, the Staff website, the Request tool etc. It is a TRUSTED postion. They will have access to a Builders section of the Immortal Discussion Board. They will be exposed to the database, they will get access to objects, rooms and NPCs. Some secrets will be revealed.
They will get - to choose a Builder Name. They will have access to the game port with a Builder Avatar. That Builder Avatar will be granted immortal commands that allow them to:
- Create and Edit rooms
- Create and Edit objects
- Create and Edit NPCs
There will be a 'Builders Chat Channel' that existing staff will also have access to in game. This will allow Builders to ask questions while on the game port and Staff to interact and confer with them.
Staff members (Producers, Administrators, Storytellers) will post projects to the Builders Discussion forum. Builders are free to choose projects that they would like to work on. Project choice is entirely voluntary.
Builders are not obligated to work on any projects that they are not interested in. We expect that working on a project as a Builder will be much like working on a team project is now. A collaborative effort. There will be back and forth, discussion about the project as a whole, vision and so on.
The Builder role is akin to the current situation where a staff member puts up a call for submissions and a player responds. There is added depth because instead of just submitting items, NPCs and room descriptions the Builder gets access to the game port and immortal commands and the ability to fully build and describe their work. Builder gets to exercise their creativity within their descriptions and their interpretation of the project.
An example of a project that will be on the Project Board:
- Allanak Clay Pits.
This project was previously posted on our own staff project board.
My request - Allanak needs a Clay Pit.
Cerys answer - I can work on that. Can it be like the Obsidian Mines?
My answer - Ohh, it should be something scary then? Will they go down tunnels to dig in it?
Cerys answer - Yes. Many scary and informative pictures.
My answer - responding with pictures in kind.
Cerys answer - I can work with that, let me write something up!
Cerys and I reached an agreement on a general theme and location and how many rooms should be built. Unfortunately Cerys then had REAL LIFE get in the way and had to move to the legend position. So this project will once again be up for grabs.
Some projects will come with specific details that need to be met, you may find some are more vague and will allow the Builder to define much more of the actual scope. It's going to vary from project to project, depending on what need we are trying to fill.
Some examples of other projects that may appear on the Project Board:
- NPC Creation for GMH Warehouse Order NPCs
- List of Food Objects that need updating for Taste/Scent messages
- Dormitory Style Apartment Creation for Allanak
- Mount Variety Project
etc.
What are the limitations for the Builder Role?
This is not a role for those who want a free for all environment to build whatever they please for the game. This is assignment based building only. The direction and vision for what is built will still come from the staffing team.
This may seem harsh. It is not meant to be. For many years, at least the last 15 or so (Sanvean put this in place) the building philosophy of Armageddon has been not to build for buildings sake. The creation of these roles does not change that. Building still needs to happen for a purpose. Currently building in the game is tied to what we are trying to achieve within the game world via storyline, or game direction. That direction for the game still comes from the staffing team. They are the people best placed to see what is happening within the game, and make the decision for what is needed.
Builders will not be able to make proposals. As previously stated this is assignment based building only, we hope to have a large variety of projects. We hope that there will be something in there that is inspiring. There will be space on the forum for Builders to raise discussion and bring to light topics and make suggestions. While Builders won't be officially Staff, they will be on the game port with us, they will be on a chat channel with us, and we hope that we will all work together on our common goals and try and create a working environment where there is some satisfaction for all.
What about Burnout, Feeling Uninspired, Wanting more Creative Input?
Again - this is a new role, things may evolve. The caveat is - No one should apply for this role with the expectation that things will change and they will get to make proposals and design their own parts of the world.
We'll do our best not to be too rigid, too stifling, to give some leeway. We'll have a board where you can make suggestions. Where staff can discuss things with you. We'll have the chat channel in game, we expect to be part of a team! That's how things get traction. There will be plenty of documentation posted that will help give you an idea of what we're looking for when we're doing building projects, and even what we ask Staff for when they're making proposals, so you'll have a good idea from the get go of the kinds of things we're doing and what might be likely to come your way.
For those that do want a role where they get to make proposals to change the game world, to make additions, to alter how things are done - this isn't that role. For that you do need to join the Staffing Team. But hopefully this role will appeal to some. If we find that it doesn't, then we can re-evaluate, and alter, or scrap the idea. But we figure it's worth a shot, and it seemed there was enough interest and desire out there for us to give something like this a go that we wanted to make the opportunity available to you all.
That sounds amazing.
I can see noble and GMH roles becoming more attractive with the prospect of faster turnaround times on mastercrafts.
The message icon says it all.
Please don't put in Builder applications until a call has been announced in the Staff Announcements forum. We're not ready to take applications yet. Thanks!
it's probably not kosher to use "Bob" as your builder name, huh?
Quote from: TheWanderer on April 06, 2015, 10:45:16 PM
it's probably not kosher to use "Bob" as your builder name, huh?
I totally reserved Bob on the first page of this thread!
Back off TheWanderer! :P
Quote from: TheWanderer on April 06, 2015, 10:45:16 PM
it's probably not kosher to use "Bob" as your builder name, huh?
Or Baobob...
Will builders be allowed to play their character and be logged in to work on building projects at the same time?
Builders will have the same rule as storytellers on that subject - which means no.
Quote from: adriannetwork on April 07, 2015, 01:58:12 AM
Hopefully with the new builder roll the staff can focus on optimizing the game even further.
QUESTION:
Would being a builder give you "contributes to the game" karma?
I don't want to see this become a reality.
Quote from: Is Friday on April 07, 2015, 02:14:03 AM
I don't want to see this become a reality.
Reality is, I highly doubt they're going to give this kind of trusted position to someone who doesn't already have a fair amount of Karma.
I personally have no problem with people who are trusted, contributors to the game to get karma for proving it.
Will it automatically give you a point of karma in that category? No. Will your record and body of work as a builder weigh into that category when you go up for karma review? I don't see why it wouldn't.
Im so excited, and I just cant hide it....
Quote from: Cavaticus on April 07, 2015, 08:21:29 AM
Will it automatically give you a point of karma in that category? No. Will your record and body of work as a builder weigh into that category when you go up for karma review? I don't see why it wouldn't.
I thought karma bonuses for being on staff was no longer applicable once you left staff? i.e. you went back to your last karma number prior to staff once you hit Legend status. I'm not convinced that handing out karma for this is warranted if we're following the same philosophy.
You're correct that karma reverts to pre-staff levels upon retiring, but if a former staff member puts in for a karma review, their time on staff can count towards the "contributes to the game" category. It's not automatic, but it does weigh in.
As an example, my mortal account (which does not have 8 karma), only has one point for contribution.
Quote from: Cavaticus on April 07, 2015, 09:47:01 AM
As an example, my mortal account (which does not have 8 karma), only has one point for contribution.
Ditto. And I only got my point for contribution by putting in for a karma review. There's no "handing out karma" that's happening. Staff are treated just like other players in this regard, as Builders will be.
Re: The GMH Hunters thread
Is making items craftable something that would be acceptable
through Builders?
i.e.-Kadius's staffers post a project to make craftable all Kadius-tagged cloaks.
It's something that might be acceptable further down the track, if we can figure out a way to give access to the crafting tool without access to other parts of the site. Right now that isn't possible without an investment of time to get that working. We'd rather focus on what we can do now and look at rolling that part out later on.
Quote from: Talia on April 07, 2015, 11:37:34 AM
Quote from: Cavaticus on April 07, 2015, 09:47:01 AM
As an example, my mortal account (which does not have 8 karma), only has one point for contribution.
Ditto. And I only got my point for contribution by putting in for a karma review. There's no "handing out karma" that's happening. Staff are treated just like other players in this regard, as Builders will be.
So what you're telling me is: You wouldn't give me more karma last review because then I'd have more karma than you.
U mad bro?
Quote from: Adhira on April 07, 2015, 09:08:27 PM
It's something that might be acceptable further down the track, if we can figure out a way to give access to the crafting tool without access to other parts of the site. Right now that isn't possible without an investment of time to get that working. We'd rather focus on what we can do now and look at rolling that part out later on.
Thanks for all the answers to our questions (not to mention the quick turn around time). I know I've asked more than my share!
Will builders, like other staff, have the option to have more than one living character at one time?
And if not, would this be something staff might considered for builders?
Why would they need that?
Quote from: BadSkeelz on April 09, 2015, 03:10:31 PM
Why would they need that?
Why would anyone need that? Though it is a nice perk.
I don't think the point is to give out extra perks.
It seems an unnecessary indulgence. Maybe I'm wrong, bu tStaff don't really get two characters, they get a jokesy avatar and the ability to run a "normal" character with some restrictions. (No sponsored or leader roles, etc.). And this is after they generally have to store their current PC at the time of joining staff, since they can't have a PC in the same area they're staffing.
Plus if you give the Builders two characters to play with they'll probably have even less time to build.
Most staff don't even have one PC.
Quote from: Cavaticus on April 09, 2015, 03:25:05 PM
Most staff don't even have one PC.
Cavaticus is just bragging here, as he/she has actually twelve PCs, one of which is a Mantis that quad-wields lightsabers.
Edit: I am just BS'ing here, by the way. I don't want anyone to miss the sarcasm and think I'm accusing Cavaticus of being a dirty Staff member.
Yeah I know... terrible thing to ask. I'll retract the question...
Don't feel discouraged from asking questions. I don't think anyone is reprimanding you.
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 09, 2015, 03:09:57 PM
Will builders, like other staff, have the option to have more than one living characters at one time?
And if not, would this be something staff might considered for builders?
I'm going to go with "no." (And I feel pretty confident about that.) Staff members are restricted from playing many roles in the game--we can't play sponsored leaders, we can't play in any clans in our own clan group, we can't take up more than 2 spots collectively in certain clans, we can't play certain roles in certain clans unless no one else is playing them. That's why staff members have the option to play more than 1 living PC, because we may be forced into playing in areas that are less desirable to us individually, and may encounter a lot of downtime in areas where there just aren't any other PCs. Builders will not be restricted in what they can play as players, so they don't need to have the option to play more than one PC.
Quote from: MeTekillot on April 09, 2015, 03:52:11 PM
Don't feel discouraged from asking questions. I don't think anyone is reprimanding you.
Thanks for the concern MeTekillot. I'm less discouraged and feeling reprimanded than I am trying to dissuade what I see as the unneeded dissenting opinion of some. I know staff will decide for themselves what and how they want to do things and didn't want to turn the thread into a debate over the merits of this idea.
While being on staff has many restrictions, there are also many perks. And while the perks don't outweigh the responsibility and work load staff have, they do offset them. From what I've read, the builder job has few if any perks. This would be a simple and easy perk that staff could easily monitor.
The perk is being able to contribute to the game in a meaningful, lasting fashion, without having to store your character or give up your ability to play a full range of roles.
Yup. The perk of being a builder is, well, being able to build!
Builders will not be staff members. They will be regular players who have been given a special "builder avatar" that will have just enough code access to create rooms, objects, and NPCs. They'll have none of the responsibilities or restrictions that staff members operate under.
Quote from: Cavaticus on April 09, 2015, 05:18:54 PM
Yup. The perk of being a builder is, well, being able to build!
Builders will not be staff members. They will be regular players who have been given a special "builder avatar" that will have just enough code access to create rooms, objects, and NPCs. They'll have none of the responsibilities or restrictions that staff members operate under.
I guess it's just semantics. Having a special avatar with coded access that's used to effect the game world on an OOC level seems like the deffinition of staff to me, even if the avatar has limited access. But I'm cool not calling them staff members.
Additional perk: Seeing me frequently "lololololol" and other inanities on the builder communication channel. I'm a lot of fun to hang out with, come see! (SHUT UP CAVATICUS.)
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 09, 2015, 05:29:05 PM
I guess it's just semantics.
In a game which exists entirely in the textual realm, semantics is pretty important! :)
I think staff should get more perks :-)
Quote from: Molten Heart on April 09, 2015, 05:45:57 PM
I think staff should get more perks :-)
Being able to take part in the production of something you really enjoy is a perk all by itself. To view being on Staff as a seat of positional authority that gives you perks I believe is a communally harmful mindset. I would find it really cool just to do something and be like "People are able to enjoy this because I made it!" -- in past MUDs, I've actually found this more fun than playing.
For me, it's the same thing as taking part in an open source software project. I used to work on the SWGEmu project, for example. A lot of people wanted to "become developers" so that they could just run their private servers of 4 people or so and enable Jedi and have god powers, etc. I was just a really huge fan of the original SWG, so I just really liked seeing the project come to life, and every time there were a few hundred people on the main server playing, I could go log on and see them using new code that I'd committed--that was my perk :)
Perks are perspective, is my point. If Staff were interested in having multiple PCs that they could whack out and take leadership positions, etc, Armageddon would suffer for it. I'm extremely glad they have such strict policies on themselves, and that they treat themselves like players. That speaks well of what they are here for.
/rant
Quote from: Delirium on April 09, 2015, 05:17:04 PM
The perk is being able to contribute to the game in a meaningful, lasting fashion, without having to store your character or give up your ability to play a full range of roles.
Sagenod.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on April 09, 2015, 06:21:00 PM
Quote from: Delirium on April 09, 2015, 05:17:04 PM
The perk is being able to contribute to the game in a meaningful, lasting fashion, without having to store your character or give up your ability to play a full range of roles.
Sagenod.
You get your IRE preset emotes out of here
right now.
Is anyone else having storage room capacity problems now that this change is in?