Discussion thread: Assorted Game Changes

[Desertman]

We will see how it works out. I would be curious to see how valuable and useful PC hunters and crafters feel in Houses a RL year after this goes in.

Personally, I don't see why making these PC's feel useful is important, or even realistic to the setting.

I agree with you in the sense that IC'ly it makes a ton of sense. I'm right there with you.

My only concern is how much fun it is going to be for the players of crafters, and probably more so hunters, to know nothing they do matters/matters even less than it used to in a House.

That's one reason I always found it difficult to play a House hunter myself. I knew for a fact that if I was there or not orders would still get filled. My main value? If I was good at what I did, I could get it in faster than a staff-loaded item.

What's my value now? There's an NPC that will do it with zero delay to the client. In fact, me being there may actually make orders slower for clients....and they now know that. Without a group of hunters, the merchant in question has a perfectly valid excuse for insta-loading their orders.

But, I'm a very "accomplishment" driven player. I like to know I am accomplishing something useful to the group I am with. I fully understand I may be the only one with this concern. I'm just saying, it is a concern for me. (And possibly people who have my play preference.)

It is also a reason, in my opinion, why you see some groups flourish in game and some Houses often times have trouble maintaining an active steady flow of lower-end hunters/crafters. I know it's why they don't see players like me. I feel this may very well compound that problem.

[manonfire]

Nice, a builder role. Sign me up.

[Nyr]

Nice, a builder role. Sign me up.

ok, you are building latrines, I want 10 by tonight or you're fired

[manonfire]

Nice, a builder role. Sign me up.

ok, you are building latrines, I want 10 by tonight or you're fired

Tonight is unrealistic, so I'm gonna self-enforce a deadline based on typical Armageddon turnaround times and say I'll have these for you by the end of the summer.

[manonfire]

#rekt

[Nyr]

#latrined

[manonfire]

 

[Delirium]

Builder role sounds interesting but I am concerned about the ability of someone in that role to work on creative projects of their own. Can they log in to the game port and possess limited views and commands so that they can accomplish their jobs? If they're unable to log in to the game port and are instead simply fulfilling the writing portion of requests (while the storytellers continue to be the ones to actually implement) how would that actually save time that a submissions call thread would not?

How would a builder be able to, say, tackle the mapping inconsistencies of the Red Desert and add air rooms, or go through the typo and bug list, and/or actually build the items they are creating, if they're unable to log in to the game port? How would they go through the shops of a certain area and balance out what is for sale and what is not, and for what prices, etc?

Things like that are what I envision a builder role being responsible for - things that are time consuming but add a lot of value to the every day gameworld experience. Yes, builders would need to propose projects and get sign-off and approval to ensure consistency, but those are the things that I see a builder doing that a storyteller would likely not have the time to devote their day to day energy to.

In short, from the phrasing of the announcement, I feel like this is going to be a glorified bureaucratic position which doesn't necessarily add anything of substantial value.

[Desertman]

If they're unable to log in to the game port and are instead simply fulfilling the writing portion of requests (while the storytellers continue to be the ones to actually implement) how would that actually save time that a submissions call thread would not?

This be my questions 2.

[Saellyn]

Isn't there an exact gameworld copy that they use to port changes over after testing?

[nauta]

I do see Dman's point, and if I may summarize it a bit:

Even without the change, a hunter in a GMH felt a bit like a flavour role; compared to independent hunters, a GMH hunter doesn't need to hunt, neither (a) to provide for themselves nor (b) to provide for their crafts/merchants.  The move to NPCs would just amplify this feeling.

I think this might be right but I wonder if it is a bad thing.  After all, there's a lot more plot-wise going on in a GMH than hunting - and in fact the basic "go hunt me a tok hide" plot gets dull pretty fast.  Hence, the change might encourage GMH plots to move in the other direction (whatever they are).

I think this might be worth a thread of its own, frankly, so it doesn't get confused with the awesomeness of the proposed changes, because let's be honest: on a whole, it is far more frustrating to be stuck in the "my lord ordered that fancy handkerchief three years ago, you are telling me you haven't been able to get the material for it yet" plot.

[Nathvaan]

Builder role sounds interesting but I am concerned about the ability of someone in that role to work on creative projects of their own. Can they log in to the game port and possess limited views and commands so that they can accomplish their jobs? If they're unable to log in to the game port and are instead simply fulfilling the writing portion of requests (while the storytellers continue to be the ones to actually implement) how would that actually save time that a submissions call thread would not?

How would a builder be able to, say, tackle the mapping inconsistencies of the Red Desert and add air rooms, or go through the typo and bug list, and/or actually build the items they are creating, if they're unable to log in to the game port? How would they go through the shops of a certain area and balance out what is for sale and what is not, and for what prices, etc?

Things like that are what I envision a builder role being responsible for - things that are time consuming but add a lot of value to the every day gameworld experience. Yes, builders would need to propose projects and get sign-off and approval to ensure consistency, but those are the things that I see a builder doing that a storyteller would likely not have the time to devote their day to day energy to.

In short, from the phrasing of the announcement, I feel like this is going to be a glorified bureaucratic position which doesn't necessarily add anything of substantial value.

Since a builder will still be a player in all senses, there needs to be limitations in what a player builder has access to.  They will be able to log into the port but their job will not be to go out and fix things they see are problems, but instead to take a project and build that/those projects.  This could be small scale or large scale depending on the building need.    Your examples of fixing shop prices would not be something to which the builder role would be tasked.

I'd personally view a builder role as one where if you are the creative writing sort you could make permanent additions to the game in terms of rooms, objects and NPC without having to give up your player status.  To me this gives those inclined toward creative writing the ability to create and allows Storyteller staff more time to do things like plots and animations.  I would call that substantial value.

[Delirium]

I'm glad they will at least be able to build the items and rooms in the game port themselves. That's good.

I'm disappointed to hear that they won't be able to suggest projects of their own however. To my mind, things like market economy and mapping inconsistencies are the sort of things that need attention more than adding in new objects - because they will directly impact everyone's day to day gaming experience.

If storytellers don't have time, and builders are unable to work on them, how will they ever get done?

[Nyr]

Can they log in to the game port and possess limited views and commands so that they can accomplish their jobs?

Yes.  They'd have their own zone to build in and be able to move around/do what was needed there, talk via a new channel to other staff, but not see who all is in-game and all that because that isn't related to the task of building.

How would a builder be able to, say, tackle the mapping inconsistencies of the Red Desert and add air rooms, or go through the typo and bug list, and/or actually build the items they are creating, if they're unable to log in to the game port?

If this was a project selected to be sent over to builders to handle...one specifically for dealing with these mapping inconsistencies...then that's a possibility.  There is no such project at this point as this is mostly focused on new and necessary building projects at this time.  Adding air rooms?  That's a possibility, though again only with a project.  Typo/bug list, no, Builders would not be doing that (I posted earlier about that).  Yes, they can build the items they are creating.  Yes, they can log into the game port.

How would they go through the shops of a certain area and balance out what is for sale and what is not, and for what prices, etc?

They would not, this is not in builder purview at this time.  Conversely, should it become a project--IE, we need to balance all of these shops--then yes, it might be.

We are at early stages on this.  We are in the process of reviewing what other things we could do, such as releasing bugs/typos to a builder role in batches.  For instance, one such idea would be just having a monthly session to tackle that (builders included) for about an hour, delegating out the work that is there.  Rights can be granted for the proper zones at that time, then revoked after it is done.

[Armaddict]

It may have been asked, I apologize if so.  It's early, and my skim didn't catch it.

There have been a bunch of ideas in the past in regards to itemization where basically, it was a huge task due to having to go through and revamp a huge amount of items (i.e. additional item flags or a new way they interact, adding a new 'field' to the item).  Would builders be able to go through and do that?  Are 'large scale' item changes and rebalances and the sort now something we have manpower for, or is the builder mostly limited to a certain 'sphere' that broad access to item files is not a part of?

[Nyr]

We were not intending to do anything like builder roles for the game until players suggested it.  We had issues with large parts of the suggestions players had for builder roles.  After discussion, we came up with a compromise on it to start things out.  In general, there are players that want to help out with the task of building things...but do not have the time or inclination to be a full-time staff member that supports players directly.  In general, we on staff are okay with builder roles that do just that.  We've made several other changes, all geared towards freeing up staff time so that it can be focused more on plotting and overall game development.  This is one of them, and it is not a panacea all by itself (though it is definitely a help).  I'll explain some possibilities, using the things we've mentioned already as changes.

Right now:  I would tend towards focusing my efforts on plots utilizing existing things.  Anything new required to be built takes time away from me working on the plot, the animation part, etc.  As a result, I'm spending much more time in the planning stages, getting things built, etc, and this creates time lag between myself and any player efforts I want to support.  We have an event coming up and I prep for it and don't animate because I need to prep the building work.  I also need to do some testing (which can't be avoided even with a builder role addition).  I get it built, I get it tested, and I've in turn also had to support clans with existing stuff, or feel rushed through the whole process to get this knocked out because of all of this other stuff.  I may have clannies reporting that don't need to, but we've been pushing how important reports are for things, so that sucks...I'll spend some time working on that.  I've got reimbursement requests (ugh) to handle, or that anyone could handle, really, but we just crashed LAST week and I handled some, so I don't want to do it again, I've got other things to do.  I've got some mastercrafts waiting for my team, and I really should do them, they're assigned to me, and I've put it off as long as I could for now.  (If I'm an admin filling in to do the work of a storyteller because my team is a bit short-staffed due to some RL stuff, then I'm also responsible for doing account notes requests, special application reviews, description changes, and the like...plus everything else I mentioned.)  OK, so I've put off everything as much as I can--it's time to do the event.  I log in for hours and have a great time, making all of the pieces that I've set in motion actually do what they're supposed to do, and see what happens when the players do funny, weird, or stupid stuff--and it's fun.  A bit on the exhausted side, I tuck in.  I get done with the event, we get a few kudos, and then...we're needing to plan another.  It may need building effort.  Truthfully, it could use it.   But that takes time.  Anything new required to be built takes time away...

This is the lag I'm talking about:  a palpable distance between planning stages, building stages, and actual plot supported from staff hitting the ground and affecting players.  There's definitely some frustration there.

Enter character report templates and changes, account notes/karma review changes, zone saves to all but eliminate reimbursements, mastercraft process changes, description tool update, and builder roles.

Now I take my plot and review what building I need:  I need 4 NPCs, and about 8 rooms.  We're doing something like a dungeon crawl sort of event.  I take the building work and if possible, obfuscate what I can in terms of what the plot is (though in reality, I'm sure a clever, involved builder could figure it out), then go to a builder once I'm sure the plot is approved.  "Here's my ideas on this, in general...looking for a cave, maybe a hidden passage or two.  Also need some undead, rotting corpse sort of creatures.  Any questions?"  Builder asks questions, I answer, and we settle on timetable:  they have enough time to probably knock this out in a couple of weeks.  Awesome.  I sit on this information and go back to my clan stuff.  My clannies report less often and use a template, so I'm not getting inundated with unnecessary minion weekly reports.  They're putting more info in their bios, which is great if I do need that information.  I check on a few character bios for a guy that is curious about the format and I give him feedback.  I plan a preliminary animation for the clan, giving them some details about the cave of d00mzorz by animating a generic scout-type/guard-type NPC in the House to relay his tale.  I am also able to go take some time and devote it to a player plot that is going on in another clan that I'm involved with, and I give a little flavor animation.  Mastercrafts...I check the queue, and someone else actually has been assigned the one I would normally have felt guilty about not doing.  Hmm, but I've got another one, let me review it--ah, they've followed the new guidelines and procedures, and it's fairly easy to do.  I'll knock that out now.  Oh, I'm an admin, let me check the queue for desc changes.  Now I just check to see if they are online...and rather than wait for a coordinated time...I just knock it out if they are online or offline.  I've done tangible work, helped players out, and I'm using less time than before to do it all, and the animations matter--players like them, I like doing them.  Hell, may as well look over at the queue again...nope, looks good.  No reimbursements except for this one guy that did a striptease in the 2 minute window.  I'll knock that one out.  I'll make an update post for the IDB for the metaclan group.  Builder gets done two weeks later, I look over the stuff, it looks good, we knock out the plot, and we're golden.  I'm less stressed because of everything that has been done (I'm less stressed now just thinking about it).

On the other hand, builders are still playing, not seeing the staff side of plots apart from anything they help build directly, and they are directly benefiting the game.



It's not all plot-based stuff, either, nor is it necessarily "new items".  Honestly, I'm surprised by how fast this has moved.  In less than a month, we've gone from "not thinking about this idea, at all" to having the rank coded and in-game now and tested successfully (barring a few tweaks needed) as well as documentation on room building/etc moving over from old flat files to the Builder IDB section.  We'll need to start slowly and see how this works out; in general, we've got some ideas for ways to integrate more things that the builder role can do without necessarily being "staff."  Let's get past implementation first though.

[Nyr]

It may have been asked, I apologize if so.  It's early, and my skim didn't catch it.

There have been a bunch of ideas in the past in regards to itemization where basically, it was a huge task due to having to go through and revamp a huge amount of items (i.e. additional item flags or a new way they interact, adding a new 'field' to the item).  Would builders be able to go through and do that?  Are 'large scale' item changes and rebalances and the sort now something we have manpower for, or is the builder mostly limited to a certain 'sphere' that broad access to item files is not a part of?

We actually have a scripting tool that fixes crap like that now.  It has been around for years, and can be modified fairly easily.

[Armaddict]

It may have been asked, I apologize if so.  It's early, and my skim didn't catch it.

There have been a bunch of ideas in the past in regards to itemization where basically, it was a huge task due to having to go through and revamp a huge amount of items (i.e. additional item flags or a new way they interact, adding a new 'field' to the item).  Would builders be able to go through and do that?  Are 'large scale' item changes and rebalances and the sort now something we have manpower for, or is the builder mostly limited to a certain 'sphere' that broad access to item files is not a part of?

We actually have a scripting tool that fixes crap like that now.  It has been around for years, and can be modified fairly easily.

Oh.  In that case I need this done and this and this and this and this and this and this and this is a good idea and we should do this and then that one item this and you guys aren't doing this nearly fast enough.

[Delirium]

I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.

Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.

Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with
- to let them suggest projects of their own (and not make the approval process a huge hassle).

I guess we will see!

[BadSkeelz]

That kind of sounds like a recipe for people to just build waterfalls for their chosen clans, Delirium.

[Nyr]

I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.

Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.

Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with

That's the idea behind the board we've created.

Project List
This Board is for Armageddon Staff to post Current Building Projects available for Builder Assignments.

[Malken]

I think this is a step in the right direction, but I remain concerned that the way it's being implemented will cause quick turnover and/or burnout.

Doing someone else's creative work just isn't going to be fun in the long-term for the majority of people.

Potential solutions are
- to allow builders to pick and choose which plots/projects to help with
- to let them suggest projects of their own (and not make the approval process a huge hassle).

I guess we will see!

Why would it cause quick turnover and/or burnout? I'm going to guess that Staff are going to pick a few people and make a "list" of builders and then just offers the project to the person who wants to do it.

Kinda like we have once in a while, like a call for descs? It seems like many are interested in that and they love writing for the sake of writing.

I mean, I don't really see Staff as making it so that builders have to constantly work on the projects they are given or else.

[valeria]

I thoroughly approve of the limited scope of the new builder role.  If I wanted to do animations or have to worry about having my immersion destroyed by knowledge of plot sensitive IC info, I'd just apply for staff.

Then again, I'm a geek for writing descriptions, so that kind of thing is its own reward for me.

Edit: To fix phone-posting problems of spelling and grammar.

[Nyr]

I would've put the board thingy in my example but it's so new I didn't know it was there until Delirium asked.  Sorry about that!

[Delirium]

That kind of sounds like a recipe for people to just build waterfalls for their chosen clans, Delirium.

Thus the approval process (thereby vetting that the project is actually needed).