Discussion thread: Assorted Game Changes

[valeria]

Thanks, I just wasn't sure whether "cleaned out" meant  I didn't want to run around resubmitting typos I'd already submitted (and contributing to the duplicates problem).

[Desertman]

My only concern.

I just hope the items with crafting recipes attached are NOT on the NPC's in the warehouses.

House hunters are already kind of undervalued in my opinion. It's a job where you know when you become a hunter in a lot of ways the things you bring in aren't needed because, "All of the really good stuff is just ordered through staff anyways. They aren't using my materials to make it.".

I really like the idea of NPC's in warehouse having all of the items you can't codedly craft. If it can be codedly crafted however, let's leave that to the actual in-game players to produce. In my opinion, that is just much more fulfilling for everyone.

I would also love the NPC's lists to basically be a guideline for "What do we need to make crafting recipes for so we can take it off of this list asap.".

In a perfect world/game (in my opinion) eventually those NPC's would have no items in their lists and all items would be craftable through the IC efforts of the players in the Houses.

This is how the system works right now. Right now if it's a clan craftable we ask that the GMH merchant/agent ordering try and get the players to craft it. What we do is provide the clan materials needed to make said items. For example in Kurac it may be certain types of camouflage material.  

You mean you provide them with the crafting recipes and leave it up to them to find the materials/make the materials in-game through IC procurement, or do you mean you give them the materials and just let them codedly craft it?

[Nyr]

If it's clan-craftable, we'd say "it's clan-craftable" and encourage the ordering person to get their PCs to craft it.  If there are special materials needed to craft it, as Adhira put it, they'll be provided.  Otherwise it is often extremely simple.  You're part of the clan?  Now you can analyze any finished product and see the recipe, then craft it.

[Desertman]

If it's clan-craftable, we'd say "it's clan-craftable" and encourage the ordering person to get their PCs to craft it.  If there are special materials needed to craft it, as Adhira put it, they'll be provided.  Otherwise it is often extremely simple.  You're part of the clan?  Now you can analyze any finished product and see the recipe, then craft it.

So there are special materials you have to have for some items that also aren't craftable before you can craft certain items from those materials?

Damn, how deep does this rabbit hole go?

(I'm curious what the idea was around making a craftable item that has materials in it that aren't craftable to begin with....That just seems strange.)

In that case, I amend my idea to add, "I would like the NPC warehouse merchants to have only A: Non-craftable items, or B: non-craftable materials for other items on them.".

They would have only non-craftable finished products, and non-craftable materials for other finished products (that can be crafted) on them.

Of course, the list would still function as a list of items that need to have crafting recipes made for them (including those materials that can't currently be crafted).

[Adhira]

Don't worry. We've got a pretty good handle on how those NPCs should be loaded up 

[Desertman]

Don't worry. We've got a pretty good handle on how those NPCs should be loaded up  

This is the nicest, "Stop asking questions.", I've ever gotten.  

I'll take it.

[Saellyn]

I want some clarification on my end.

If it's CRAFTABLE it's not being loaded on the NPC.

If it's NOT craftable, the NPCs have it loaded.

Right?

[FantasyWriter]

Will builders be able to work on the typo queue?

[Nyr]

I want some clarification on my end.

If it's CRAFTABLE it's not being loaded on the NPC.

If it's NOT craftable, the NPCs have it loaded.

Right?

No.  Adhira was explaining how it works now.  We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD.  They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.

Will builders be able to work on the typo queue?

At this time, no.  They will be handling building projects as assigned/as needed.

[Desertman]

No.  Adhira was explaining how it works now.  We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD.  They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.

If I was playing a House crafter, or a House hunter, or pretty much anything but a House "Agent/Merchant" that doesn't craft (I admit it's great for them)......that would bum me out a bit.

[Nyr]

The bug/typo/idea DB has been reduced to approximately 1250 items.  For typos, 48 of those are PCs.  With the new tool we have, we can do all of those now (or, obviously, delete the ones for PCs that are dead).  The remainder (378) can be winnowed down pretty easily.

There are 44 ideas.  I don't think we can really do much with a lot of these apart from leave them there.  Obvious joke ideas can be discarded, but it may well be that we do something with the others.

The remainder are bugs (779).  Just looking at the first 50 here and I've deleted 10 that are erroneously filed or obviously not bugs/already fixed (and fixed two that were not necessarily bugs, but typos--or straddling the line between the two).  There's definitely a lot of wishful thinking about bugs

[Nyr]

No.  Adhira was explaining how it works now.  We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD.  They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.

If I was playing a House crafter, or a House hunter, or pretty much anything but a House "Agent/Merchant" that doesn't craft (I admit it's great for them)......that would bum me out a bit.

This is an example of the kind of trade-off that can, should, and will be done in order to make the game better for everyone.  Better for staff?  Yes--no loading item orders once per week once implemented.  Better for those selling?  Yes--if they don't have anyone to craft the items or get the materials, they don't need to wait for staff to load it.  And it doesn't affect the role of a crafter or hunter as much as you are claiming.  If you want to play a useful House crafter or hunter, do so.  This won't prevent you from doing that.  It just prevents the rest of the game from suffering when you aren't doing it.

[Desertman]

No.  Adhira was explaining how it works now.  We haven't done the NPCs loaded up with anything yet, that will be done at a date TBD.  They'll likely possess all common orders, craftable or not.

If I was playing a House crafter, or a House hunter, or pretty much anything but a House "Agent/Merchant" that doesn't craft (I admit it's great for them)......that would bum me out a bit.

This is an example of the kind of trade-off that can, should, and will be done in order to make the game better for everyone.  Better for staff?  Yes--no loading item orders once per week once implemented.  Better for those selling?  Yes--if they don't have anyone to craft the items or get the materials, they don't need to wait for staff to load it.  And it doesn't affect the role of a crafter or hunter as much as you are claiming.  If you want to play a useful House crafter or hunter, do so.  This won't prevent you from doing that.  It just prevents the rest of the game from suffering when you aren't doing it.

For me personally, as a crafter or a hunter for that House, it makes anything I accomplish feel like a secondary afterthought with no real value at all. If I am there "playing that role" at all or not it doesn't matter in any way because there is an NPC in a warehouse that can do it faster, better, and more efficiently than I can.

Nothing I do is now necessary for the success of the clan I am in. They don't need anything I make, or any materials I provide. Any "Great job, you are doing great, you are truly valuable to us.", I get is basically watered down and not genuine because I know I'm not needed.

That is how it would make me feel playing those two roles specifically. I may be the oddball out and the only one who would feel that way.

You are a staffer and you have a better understanding of the game at large.

[Saellyn]

I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."

[Desertman]

I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."

At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?

[Nyr]

Yep, Saellyn has it right.  Smoke 'em if you've got 'em.  If you don't, you have a backup.

[Desertman]

Yep, Saellyn has it right.  Smoke 'em if you've got 'em.  If you don't, you have a backup.

At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?

[Nyr]

I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."

At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?

When we make the assumption that player leaders are generally bad at being leaders, and when we ignore the many benefits to an improvement in order to focus on one possible detriment that should not happen due to player leaders generally not being bad at being leaders.

[Desertman]

I think the NPCs are meant for "If we can't get our own hunters and crafters to make the material, then buy it from the NPC."

At what point does it go from, "We can't get them to provide this IC'ly.", to, "Well, I could get them to, but it would require a lot of effort on my part....I would have to actually find capable hunters and crafters, and well....the NPC is just easier."?

When we make the assumption that player leaders are generally bad at being leaders, and when we ignore the many benefits to an improvement in order to focus on one possible detriment that should not happen due to player leaders generally not being bad at being leaders.

If they are great leaders, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would never need the NPC to begin with? Isn't that sort of the measure of if they are "Capable of finding, hiring, keeping, and fostering a productive crew."?

Either way, I like the idea of it being left up to the players to decide, that way it is less work for staff. Still, I would like (and I'm sure you've thought of this) some check and balance in place to punish leaders who are going to the NPC vendor too often instead of running a productive capable crew.

[Nyr]

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on what (and how well) clan leaders should be doing. 

[Desertman]

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on what (and how well) clan leaders should be doing. 

I believe you. I'm just giving you the player's point of view since we don't have the staff's inside info. 

[HavokBlue]

Since I imagine most clan leaders went into the role looking to entertain other people... I don't think you're going to need to worry a whole bunch, D-man. If Lord Templar Hardnose orders his knotty fuckwood bow and I tell Crafter Amos to make it, and he makes it, great. If he doesn't make it, I can go get a knotty fuckwood bow from the warehouse instead of trying to explain to Lord Templar Hardnose that while my merchant family has near limitless funds and ample resources, our one guy who can craft a knotty fuckwood bow stopped logging in.

[Desertman]

Another point of interest from my own experience.

I have always felt playing a House hunter or crafter was sort of undermined by staff's policy of loading in items that could be crafted IC'ly.

Obviously, the system of having an NPC that will load in craftable items instantly doesn't appeal to me either.

Before, the only way I felt truly valuable as GOOD hunter or crafter in a House was I knew I could produce certain items and materials FASTER than the staff could load them in. I knew staff WOULD load them in, if I wasn't able to get it....but if I could, my clients were happy because they got it FASTER.

Now there is an NPC who can do it instantly across the board.

Before, my value as a PC hunter or crafter in a House came from my ability to give my clients things faster and make them happy faster. They loved me because I was more optimal. They loved me and valued me (and gave me a sense of accomplishment) because I was faster than them waiting on a VNPC/NPC/Staff to do it. That was my value.

Now, my client WILL KNOW they could get it faster off the NPC if I weren't around. The fact I exist is potentially actually slower for them. They could get whatever they want faster if I didn't exist and they know it.

I don't like that idea.

[Desertman]

Since I imagine most clan leaders went into the role looking to entertain other people... I don't think you're going to need to worry a whole bunch, D-man. If Lord Templar Hardnose orders his knotty fuckwood bow and I tell Crafter Amos to make it, and he makes it, great. If he doesn't make it, I can go get a knotty fuckwood bow from the warehouse instead of trying to explain to Lord Templar Hardnose that while my merchant family has near limitless funds and ample resources, our one guy who can craft a knotty fuckwood bow stopped logging in.

I get that it will make templars and merchant House family/Agents happier.

I am worried about the affect on the grassroots producers and their sense of achievement.

[Lizzie]

Don't worry.  We've got a pretty good handle on what (and how well) clan leaders should be doing.  

I believe you. I'm just giving you the player's point of view since we don't have the staff's inside info.  

I really think you shouldn't speak on behalf of "the players" since not all of us share your point of view. Here's mine, and my cred:
I've played a sponsored GMH merchant. I've played a promoted GMH junior merchant/agent trainee - twice. I've played countless GMH employees, mostly hunters, but some crafters, and a few that were a bit of both.

As someone with years of experience in all the GMHs available (plus a stint in Nenyuk FWIW), I can say with all confidence that I am SOOOO relieved this change is being made. It means that as a crafter, I won't feel like I have to spam-craft my way into branching just so that Lord Hardnose can get his pair of yellow gloves for his new aide some time before she gets assassinated within the next year.
As the merchant, I won't feel the pressure to hire Nimrod the Ninth just because he -has- already spam-crafted his way into branching and can make those yellow gloves, at the expense of my sanity for being stuck with another nimrod employee.
As Lord Hardnose, I won't have to not even bother trying to get something from Kadius, and just get my aide some cheap-ass pair of generic silk gloves from Independent Spam-Crafter #7777.
As a hard-working, already-branched master silkworker, I'll enjoy the privilege of knowing that my boss can count on me to make those gloves, and not have to resort to the ones made by "that VNPC Kadian who works for that VNPC merchant on the other side of the estate." This also gives me a damned good reason to be productive: if I'm not, I'll be replaced with that VNPC Kadian who works for that VNPC merchant on the other side of the estate, who gives his finished goods to the NPC merchant in the warehouse.