Brawl Code (Split from RAT)

[Is Friday]

From echoes, animations, and docs... I have come to the conclusion that off duty soldiers don't give any fucks.

Crim code isn't an easy fix, however.

[hopeandsorrow]

I feel brawl code would be better if you can push it to "pass out" point.  last time I brawled I kept getting the echo of not having enough stun to continue.

I was losing but... I rather get knocked out cold, then my character wimp out caught stun reached a threshold.  It was unlike my character, my character would of risked life/limb/coins to prove his point, but he couldn't because "You are too winded!" (I think thats the echo). It was dumb.

[AdamBlue]

"At the very least I wish the current code caused actual stun damage/a lot more stun damage so people took getting knocked in the head a lot more seriously. I have seen so many who act like they aren't hurt at all just because codedly they know they are safe...."

To this, I say.
Ever brawl a half-giant?

[Armaddict]

My issue with the brawl code has always been  the lack of malevolence.

What do you mean by that?  That you agree that it should cause more harm?  That it's used frivolously as entertainment?  That people aren't mean enough with it?

Mostly that it is used frivolously, and people aren't mean enough. I can't say if that is because of the lack of harm or not.

If it caused more harm I believe people would be less likely to use it as frivolously.

The first rendition of it had it so that you could engage unwilling people, but I think it was only in Red Storm at that time.  What -I- remember about it was it resulted in bored people making it so that no one else could enjoy their time in a tavern, the social hotspot of the playerbase.  More harm only leads to it being used exactly like how I don't want it to be used...as violence without a risk.  If your character has a grudge on someone, use violence.  If that person said something that pissed you off, use violence.  If you're bored and feel like being violent as per your character, find someone to brawl.

Ever since it went in, people have tried to use it as a substitute to actually having to break the law, but still wanting to beat someone up, when as noted, it was coded as an atmospheric addition to rougher taverns, not as a way for the common man to dole out his own justice.  The latter requires the same measures that it has always required, throughout existence of the game, and I don't think a cool atmospheric code addition needs to be tweaked to make it perform more than what its actual intention is.

[Norcal]

Brawling in taverns has always seemed unrealistic and kind of power gamey to me. It is easy to abuse and  have seen it abused.  In real life, rough taverns usually have even rougher bouncers who can and will move a fight outside.  No tavern owner want's their place trashed by drunks in a fight.   If you bust up someone's bar then you will at least find that you are not welcome back next time, or that you get arrested.

I think that instead of the brawl code, just allow hit or kick in taverns, but with punishment. You get crim-flagged, but not immediately, so you can still beat someone up if you want to bad enough.

Then..you get hauled off to jail for a while, or if you actually killed someone..the arena.

Oh and I -still- think we need stocks on caravan road or in the Commons. Instead of jail..stocks.  Move the jail closer to the criminals.

[BadSkeelz]

From echoes, animations, and docs... I have come to the conclusion that off duty soldiers don't give any fucks.

Crim code isn't an easy fix, however.

One of the annoying things about being a soldier is that people suddenly become afraid to brawl you. I'm not quite sure if it's wholly fear of "Brawl code with crimflag me," either. A lot of it seemed to be IC "If I punch this shoulder he will flip his shit and murder me."

[Armaddict]

I feel brawl code would be better if you can push it to "pass out" point.  last time I brawled I kept getting the echo of not having enough stun to continue.

I was losing but... I rather get knocked out cold, then my character wimp out caught stun reached a threshold.  It was unlike my character, my character would of risked life/limb/coins to prove his point, but he couldn't because "You are too winded!" (I think thats the echo). It was dumb.

Use contact to knock yourself out.

Problem with making it go until passing out is that suddenly you can't even briefly go afk in taverns, because people who train their combat skills just became the most talented tavern-pickpockets in the known.



Edit:  In reading other brawl threads, there are other staff insinuations that brawl -is- to be used in other ways...vaguely. They may have been prior to the 'you must be standing' change. But -I- get a chapped ass when someone who's bored starts imposing this particular bit of code to break up things happening around them.  "I'm bored, so I'm going to have fun at your expense...and you can go...afk in some place without people, as a result."  Which is inevitable.  Keeping it to willing participants ensures enjoyment, and keeping it from doing too much coded affect keeps it from being abusable aside from the 'I'm not sure how good that guy is at combat, I'll brawl him to find out.'

[hopeandsorrow]

I feel brawl code would be better if you can push it to "pass out" point.  last time I brawled I kept getting the echo of not having enough stun to continue.

I was losing but... I rather get knocked out cold, then my character wimp out caught stun reached a threshold.  It was unlike my character, my character would of risked life/limb/coins to prove his point, but he couldn't because "You are too winded!" (I think thats the echo). It was dumb.

Use contact to knock yourself out.

Problem with making it go until passing out is that suddenly you can't even briefly go afk in taverns, because people who train their combat skills just became the most talented tavern-pickpockets in the known.

There is a special place in hell for players who abuse other players are clearly link dead/gone. 

Fair.  Although I've never witnessed the abuse that people are stating.  Knowing how some the players act, though  I don't doubt it in a instant.

Wouldn't be so bad to be crim'ed flag sometimes, if in the wrong circumstances didn't result in character death so easily and indefensibly. 

I just wish there could be an realistic escalation of violence along with a realistic world response.  Sadly I'd say, trust players, but we already know it takes one person to abuse a privilege before it becomes an epidemic of unrealistic "le harsh" role play that no one is happy with.

Sad, it makes criminal characters so exceedingly difficult to pull off.

[Desertman]

People who random-brawl you with no RP while you are obviously AFK would need to be reported, and justly so.

If we didn't change anything or put anything into the game because, "Someone might abuse it someday someway.", we wouldn't ever add anything to the game.

I can see how someone randomly brawling you for seemingly no reason and causing actual damage to your PC might really chap your ass. But....

If you feel someone was mean to you in Armageddon, you are probably right.

[RogueGunslinger]

I feel brawl code would be better if you can push it to "pass out" point.  last time I brawled I kept getting the echo of not having enough stun to continue.

I was losing but... I rather get knocked out cold, then my character wimp out caught stun reached a threshold.  It was unlike my character, my character would of risked life/limb/coins to prove his point, but he couldn't because "You are too winded!" (I think thats the echo). It was dumb.

Use contact to knock yourself out.

Problem with making it go until passing out is that suddenly you can't even briefly go afk in taverns, because people who train their combat skills just became the most talented tavern-pickpockets in the known.



Edit:  In reading other brawl threads, there are other staff insinuations that brawl -is- to be used in other ways...vaguely. They may have been prior to the 'you must be standing' change. But -I- get a chapped ass when someone who's bored starts imposing this particular bit of code to break up things happening around them.  "I'm bored, so I'm going to have fun at your expense...and you can go...afk in some place without people, as a result."  Which is inevitable.  Keeping it to willing participants ensures enjoyment, and keeping it from doing too much coded affect keeps it from being abusable aside from the 'I'm not sure how good that guy is at combat, I'll brawl him to find out.'

You keep treating it like enacting violence on someone without nuclear-soldier-killsquad recourse is a bad thing. This is Zalanthas, the weak will be bent to the will of the strong. The fact is if they don't want the violence enacted upon them they have options to leave, options to become better brawlers, options to pay someone to fight for them, options to not be little piss-ant breed who steal your stool at the bar and starts mouthing off in the very first place.

right now our only options are to hope he agree to a friendly brawl, or to murderate the guy in a dark alley. There should be something in between.

[Delirium]

>mercy on

[Down Under]

>mercy off

[slvrmoontiger]

The wording of the messages, however, makes me think that the sitting thing was intentional.  "If you'd like to brawl them, you'll need to stand" gives the general impression that it's not intended as a way for one character to impose their will over another one, but a mutual experience.  I.e.  Someone beating the shit out of someone who isn't fighting back?  Still a crime.  That's how I view it.  Definitely don't view it as something that people need to be able to do more of...like I said.  I feel like people get pretty stupid with it already.

This.  Brawling implies some level of IC consent.  Without that consent, it's an attack and a crime.  I believe staff have stated as much on the GDB.

I wish I hadn't missed this information. A while back I was in a situation where my character was forced to brawl (Not going to say anything more as it would be giving out IC information). People my PC talked to including the PC's boss indicated that this was acceptable. So either a lot of people missed this or you mus understood something. A link would be helpful, Moe.

[HavokBlue]

I don't like it when people assume that 'winning' the brawl gives them a free pass to emote doing whatever they like to my PC.

[slvrmoontiger]

I also wish we could do away with the whole, "You have to get them to stand up to brawl them.", crap, at least for places like The Gaj.

Used to make people stand up for the brawl, when they were sitting, so that you could continue.

Got completely out of control.

Personally...I'd rather remove the brawl code, rather than accentuate it.  It pretty much turns players into morons.  "ABUSE ABUSE, HE WON'T STAND UP WHEN I WANT TO BEAT HIM UP."  Meanwhile, that someone is in the middle of something else distracting them from the game, and they don't -feel- like playing out your need to engage in literally meaningless pseudo combat because you're trying to appear tough and gritty, or to -really- show them that you don't like 'em!

Brawling is stupid, and I've gotten to the point with it that if someone starts looking like they're about to do it, I -feel- like sitting down out of general principle.

The wording of the messages, however, makes me think that the sitting thing was intentional.  "If you'd like to brawl them, you'll need to stand" gives the general impression that it's not intended as a way for one character to impose their will over another one, but a mutual experience.  I.e.  Someone beating the shit out of someone who isn't fighting back?  Still a crime.  That's how I view it.  Definitely don't view it as something that people need to be able to do more of...like I said.  I feel like people get pretty stupid with it already.

I don't think the requirement to have some form of "consent" to brawling should be done away with. If it is and someone is brawled that just doesn't want to be the person hitting them should be crim-flagged. Regardless of the rough and tumble nature of places like the Gaj and the Tooth people still have a right to choose if they want to participate in a bar fight or not. There are many characters out there that do not believe in fighting to force someone to do this or just get beat up is immature and stupid.

[Bushranger]

Actually, if brawling is going anywhere new, the American Gladiators scripting/code is probably it.

edit to add:  same for sparring.  At least, we were discussing that at the time we developed the scripting for Descending Sun

I like this a lot! +1 Nyr

[Barzalene]

I also wish we could do away with the whole, "You have to get them to stand up to brawl them.", crap, at least for places like The Gaj.

Used to make people stand up for the brawl, when they were sitting, so that you could continue.

Got completely out of control.

Personally...I'd rather remove the brawl code, rather than accentuate it.  It pretty much turns players into morons.  "ABUSE ABUSE, HE WON'T STAND UP WHEN I WANT TO BEAT HIM UP."  Meanwhile, that someone is in the middle of something else distracting them from the game, and they don't -feel- like playing out your need to engage in literally meaningless pseudo combat because you're trying to appear tough and gritty, or to -really- show them that you don't like 'em!

Brawling is stupid, and I've gotten to the point with it that if someone starts looking like they're about to do it, I -feel- like sitting down out of general principle.

The wording of the messages, however, makes me think that the sitting thing was intentional.  "If you'd like to brawl them, you'll need to stand" gives the general impression that it's not intended as a way for one character to impose their will over another one, but a mutual experience.  I.e.  Someone beating the shit out of someone who isn't fighting back?  Still a crime.  That's how I view it.  Definitely don't view it as something that people need to be able to do more of...like I said.  I feel like people get pretty stupid with it already.

I don't think the requirement to have some form of "consent" to brawling should be done away with. If it is and someone is brawled that just doesn't want to be the person hitting them should be crim-flagged. Regardless of the rough and tumble nature of places like the Gaj and the Tooth people still have a right to choose if they want to participate in a bar fight or not. There are many characters out there that do not believe in fighting to force someone to do this or just get beat up is immature and stupid.

I disagree. If you don't want to go to rough places, go other places. Or make powerful friends. Or be charming. Or be dangerous.

[TheWanderer]

I like the smell of fried erdlu.

It's the equivalent of chicken, right? Yeah... yeah.

Edit: Huh. That's weird. It said this was the RAT thread, and I seem to have posted without looking. Sorry?

[Armaddict]

You keep treating it like enacting violence on someone without nuclear-soldier-killsquad recourse is a bad thing. This is Zalanthas, the weak will be bent to the will of the strong. The fact is if they don't want the violence enacted upon them they have options to leave, options to become better brawlers, options to pay someone to fight for them, options to not be little piss-ant breed who steal your stool at the bar and starts mouthing off in the very first place.

The wording of your post puts you at odds with the described intent of the code in the first place.  As already stated, it's not a way for you to circumvent crimcode to deliver an asskicking.  It's there as a sporting affair, minus as many rules, between people engaged in a mutual agreement of physical combat.  It's not there for a combat-heavy pc to flex their combat skills against people who do not generally fight.  It's not there so that a guy and his friends can make this tavern off-limits to a PC they don't like.  It's not there so that there's this one place in the city where you can wrestle and shove and punch via code without suffering consequences.  It isn't a criminal affair, which is what you're repeatedly talking about making it into.
Option to leave="You can't be in the social hub, because I'm stronger than you."
Option to become a better brawler="Start training your combat skills or you aren't allowed here, because I do train my combat skills and I feel like it."
Option to pay someone else to fight them="You can pay someone else, but I'm still gonna ignore them and hit you since you can't really opt out of it" (and herein lies one of the many reasons for the sitting bit to be understood and remain in place)
Options to not be a pissant breed who steals your stool and starts mouthing off?  This one is completely ridiculous considering most of the time, it's someone who baits a response, then wants to teach said breed a lesson for -having- a response.

It's all just a play on someone wanting to be able to tell someone else to respect their authoritah, like Eric Cartman.  Which you definitely can.  But not with other people protecting you.  If you want to truly beat someone up, be realistic about it, and realize you're -actually trying to beat the snot out of someone and are drawing attention to that fact-.  That is no longer under the jurisdiction of an every day tavern brawl, that is where authorities get called because there's a dude here raging out and getting scary because this breed said he could sit here if he wanted to.

The weak is the populace, the strong is the city state.  The city state makes it pretty clear about what is and isn't acceptable, and outright, brutalizing violence isn't acceptable.  That's why you have to pay soldiers to do it.  Brawling is fine, having actual intent to beat the snot out of someone is not, and this is accurately portrayed by the need to use combat code.

If you just want to beat the snot out of someone, you can attack them with no weapons.  Let's say you did this out in the street...I'd pull out my weapon, if I was an unwilling participant, to defend myself.  What happens, with the brawl code, if someone pulls out a weapon?  As far as I know, nothing...which means that now continuing to brawl against someone who clearly doesn't want to and will avidly defend themselves is the new 'abuser', not the person who tried to remain sitting.  So...if someone comes at me with brawl code, and there's no way for me to say 'No, I'm not fighting that fight' aside from straight up leaving, what exactly does this really add to the game?  So then we could make it so you can't brawl people with weapons out, or it jumps straight to combat code.  Is that better, or worse?  And is the change even worth it?

As far as soldier presence...you say 'Off duty soldiers don't give a shit' (which it remains to be said...I don't think npc soldiers stationed in that place are necessarily always off duty, at least the non-patrolling ones), and yet that line of reasoning would never stand under interrogation as to how this outright, -true- violence was allowed in their presence.  "This aide went in to look for recruits for me and got beaten the fuck up.  You sat there watching."  "I was off duty."  That soldier would be toast.  So...soldiers are clearly not just there  just for flavor, and this gives credence to the idea that brawling -is- with that noticeable agreement.  These two guys are gonna go at it, but it's not a danger for anyone else to be concerned about...because if other people would have to be concerned about it, it's a crime.  So...again...in the case of trying to make brawling some sort of personal justice, I will hold that it's not a good method for code -or- the understanding of the game world.  You'll have to be a little more wily about doling out badassery than dragging a guy out of his stool in plain sight of everyone and kicking the shit out of him, just because.

I disagree. If you don't want to go to rough places, go other places. Or make powerful friends. Or be charming. Or be dangerous.

Being charming or dangerous or having powerful friends does not prevent the code (the same code people are asking to be made stronger and have more of an affect on your character) from coming into play.  If your intent is increased to criminal harm, it ceases to be a brawl, and this is accurately portrayed.


Basically every staff opinion I've read in reviewing threads is that this is 'working as intended', which I'm pretty pleased with.  Just players misinterpreting that intention, as far as I'm concerned.

[Desertman]

I think everyone understands it is "Working as intended".

The whole point is we want to change what it is intended for.

You do not want to change what it is intended for. Fair enough. I understand your point of view.

I think our major disconnect is your belief that tavern brawls should be semi-friendly always or they are a crime in the eyes of the city based on the atmosphere of the tavern and the world. (The code absolutely agrees with you and this point of view. I do not argue that. The code backs you up 100%, but that is what we want to change.)

That I disagree with completely. The Gaj and possibly The Tooth, in my opinion, are the sorts of places where they mop the blood up (or don't even bother to) off the floor every night. The kind of place where you walk in knowing there's a pretty good chance you are going to witness a few fights. A lot of bullying of under-class races and undesirables. In general, the sort of place where the weak wouldn't even think of going because there is no protection for the weak there. On that point you and I will have to agree to disagree and I am fine with that.

[Barzalene]

Maybe a silly idea. Suspend crimcode in room outside tavern.

[Desertman]

Maybe a silly idea. Suspend crimcode in room outside tavern.

To what end?

[Barzalene]

A place for the hostilities to go and flourish.

[Barzalene]

An opportunity to say, "oh yeah? Let's step outside, Buddy."

[Jeax]

An opportunity to say, "oh yeah? Let's step outside, Buddy."

But then if you did something illegal, you would still be a wanted person, so just releasing the crimcode there does not make sense.