Brawl Code (Split from RAT)

[Desertman]

I really wish we could get a re-work of the bar brawl code.

I miss the days when you could just emote out your fights. I guess that caused some abuse problems, though I can't say I ever recall seeing them directly.

At the very least I wish the current code caused actual stun damage/a lot more stun damage so people took getting knocked in the head a lot more seriously. I have seen so many who act like they aren't hurt at all just because codedly they know they are safe. I wish it actually knocked you out, and then if the person kept beating you, they would get crimmed for attempted murder.

I have also seen a lot of very "brave" people who are only brave because they know codedly they are safe due to the brawl code being so very underwhelming.

I also wish the brawl code took into account the fact you are fighting five people instead of treating it like you are fighting five separate 1 on 1 fights. I have seen people brag in game about "Beating three of them at once in a brawl.", not realizing the code treated it like three separate 1 on 1 fights. Sadly, there is no IC way to inform them that what they have done really isn't as impressive as they think it is.

I also wish we could do away with the whole, "You have to get them to stand up to brawl them.", crap, at least for places like The Gaj.

The Gaj and maybe even The Tooth are the sorts of taverns where people should get smacked across the teeth with a chair by someone that hates them in a blindsided moment of fury if they are expecting it or not.

Other taverns that are only slightly "higher class" but still commoner taverns might take exception to two people throwing down when one isn't a willing participant.

Mainly, I just want to do away with people talking constant lines of crap because they know they are protected by the fact the code won't let them get beat down if they just keep sitting on their barstool.

All of that aside....

I also wish we could put in our own emotes for the way we are fighting instead of depending on the somewhat comical and kind of goofy "stock" brawl code emotes we are forced to use now.

(Interestingly enough, I've never actually had anyone do this to one of my characters. But I've been a third party witness to it happening over and over and over again. Nobody is afraid of getting into a bar fight because really....it is laughably safe.)

[hopeandsorrow]

I nevered like that there are room echo's about people getting stabbed at the bar but if you were to say, stab a one eye breed in the face for talking shit.  The entire cities NPC militia would come out the wood work to WTFPWN you.

I feel the bar should be more dangerous, and that talking shit might just get you stabbed, because your a low class breed commoner... Who would really give a fuck?

[racurtne]

If you find someone willing to play along, you can certainly emote it out. I'd totally let someone non-fatally stab me if I thought it would be an interesting scene. Don't be surprised if everyone reacts like it's attempted murder, though.

[Majikal]

Wanna make playing a breed hardcore. No crimcode flag for the people that attack you anywhere...


Welcome to Armageddon, you disgusting mixblood piece of shit. 

[AdamBlue]

Wanna make playing a breed hardcore. No crimcode flag for the people that attack you anywhere...


Welcome to Armageddon, you disgusting mixblood piece of shit. 

I understand the stuff ICly but OOCly I think breeds are fucking adorable.

[hopeandsorrow]

If you find someone willing to play along, you can certainly emote it out. I'd totally let someone non-fatally stab me if I thought it would be an interesting scene. Don't be surprised if everyone reacts like it's attempted murder, though.

Sometimes that's half the issue with crime as well.

People don't like to "lose" and will come out to murder you if you dare nick 10 sid bone dagger off their belt.  Suddenly half the city is against you, because you tried to take that breed's crappy leather working knife and now there is a 3 large bounty on your head that every militia man, bynner, bounty hunter, and templar are looking to collect.  (Exaggeration I know, but that's how it can feel).

[KankWhisperer]

Poor examples. Look at Aaron Hernandez aka millionaire killing a no one over basically a ten sid knife. People escalate stuff all the time. Traffic stops end in death especially if you are the wrong color. Unless everyone is saying Zalanthas is more reasonable than earth.

Also I don't care about breed or knife, just looking for excuse to kill you.

[hopeandsorrow]

Poor examples. Look at Aaron Hernandez aka millionaire killing a no one over basically a ten sid knife. People escalate stuff all the time. Traffic stops end in death especially if you are the wrong color. Unless everyone is saying Zalanthas is more reasonable than earth.

Your listing exceptional examples from real life, no every dies because they cut some off in traffic, or stole a dollar off your desk, nor should every pick pocket who's ever had the misfortune of getting caught have the ENTIRETY of a city state come down upon their head.  In a world rife with strife, thievery, and general unpleasantness it doesn't seem be a very realistic response, that so many people would care about some one else's dagger.  It's a reaction entirely out of OOC boredom, not by any sense of realistic role play.

Also I don't care about breed or knife, just looking for excuse to kill you

Cause wanton PK'ing for whatever loose reason you can find is great rp.  

[Armaddict]

I also wish we could do away with the whole, "You have to get them to stand up to brawl them.", crap, at least for places like The Gaj.

Used to make people stand up for the brawl, when they were sitting, so that you could continue.

Got completely out of control.

Personally...I'd rather remove the brawl code, rather than accentuate it.  It pretty much turns players into morons.  "ABUSE ABUSE, HE WON'T STAND UP WHEN I WANT TO BEAT HIM UP."  Meanwhile, that someone is in the middle of something else distracting them from the game, and they don't -feel- like playing out your need to engage in literally meaningless pseudo combat because you're trying to appear tough and gritty, or to -really- show them that you don't like 'em!

Brawling is stupid, and I've gotten to the point with it that if someone starts looking like they're about to do it, I -feel- like sitting down out of general principle.

The wording of the messages, however, makes me think that the sitting thing was intentional.  "If you'd like to brawl them, you'll need to stand" gives the general impression that it's not intended as a way for one character to impose their will over another one, but a mutual experience.  I.e.  Someone beating the shit out of someone who isn't fighting back?  Still a crime.  That's how I view it.  Definitely don't view it as something that people need to be able to do more of...like I said.  I feel like people get pretty stupid with it already.

[BadSkeelz]

change the "hit" command to automatically teleport you and your target to the arena and ring city bell

[CodeMaster]

Not getting crimflagged for attacking elves might be a good interesting change.

[hopeandsorrow]

Not getting crimflagged for attacking elves might be a good change.

+1

[wizturbo]

... nor should every pick pocket who's ever had the misfortune of getting caught have the ENTIRETY of a city state come down upon their head.  In a world rife with strife, thievery, and general unpleasantness it doesn't seem be a very realistic response, that so many people would care about some one else's dagger.  It's a reaction entirely out of OOC boredom, not by any sense of realistic role play.

I sort of agree with you, but there's one piece that's missing.  Any crime, in either city, that's done without protection from the authorities is going to be cracked down on with extreme prejudice.  The crime of stealing a 10 sid knife is minor, and no one cares.  The crime of stealing that 10 sid knife, and not having bribed/dealt with the proper authorities is significantly worse.  Why?  Because by not letting the important people get their cut, you're effectively stealing from them in their eyes, not that nobody grebber.  

[Nyr]

Actually, if brawling is going anywhere new, the American Gladiators scripting/code is probably it.

edit to add:  same for sparring.  At least, we were discussing that at the time we developed the scripting for Descending Sun

[Marauder Moe]

The wording of the messages, however, makes me think that the sitting thing was intentional.  "If you'd like to brawl them, you'll need to stand" gives the general impression that it's not intended as a way for one character to impose their will over another one, but a mutual experience.  I.e.  Someone beating the shit out of someone who isn't fighting back?  Still a crime.  That's how I view it.  Definitely don't view it as something that people need to be able to do more of...like I said.  I feel like people get pretty stupid with it already.

This.  Brawling implies some level of IC consent.  Without that consent, it's an attack and a crime.  I believe staff have stated as much on the GDB.

[Patuk]

Not getting crimflagged for attacking elves might be a good change.

+1

Why would you want to see this added to the game?

[hopeandsorrow]

... nor should every pick pocket who's ever had the misfortune of getting caught have the ENTIRETY of a city state come down upon their head.  In a world rife with strife, thievery, and general unpleasantness it doesn't seem be a very realistic response, that so many people would care about some one else's dagger.  It's a reaction entirely out of OOC boredom, not by any sense of realistic role play.

I sort of agree with you, but there's one piece that's missing.  Any crime, in either city, that's done without protection from the authorities is going to be cracked down on with extreme prejudice.  The crime of stealing a 10 sid knife is minor, and no one cares.  The crime of stealing that 10 sid knife, and not having bribed/dealt with the proper authorities is significantly worse.  Why?  Because by not letting the important people get their cut, you're effectively stealing from them in their eyes, not that nobody grebber.  

Understand able, but I sometimes wonder where the safety or property of lowly commoner is every much of the concern of the templars or Militia? A serial, accomplish terror of a pick pocket, I understand people wanting a cut.  But I've seen several occasions an off handed incident has lead to witch hunts, extreme punishments with out little recourse for bribery.  Just seems players are too quick to slaughter a pick pocket or burglar where he stands as oppose to accepting that it's a fact of Life in the over crowded and desperate cities.

It's one thing to go after some one who personally wronged you.
But your clan shouldn't give a shit about some stolen personal property of little value.

It makes entire sense for the templars wanting to get to an accomplished thief.
It makes no sense to lead a city wide hunt because this one thief stole this half-breed's bone dagger, and it wasn't a very nice thing to do.

I understand some of its born out of... OOC boredom and desire for conflict, but a big reason conflict is so rare is because people are entirely too quick to give a shit and turn the city upside down at the slightest provocation.
Criminal's are difficult to play because of this, because if you're caught even once, you deal with an OOC stigma and every douche or white knight having an arrow with your name on it. It's silly and jarring for a world that has people regularly dying of starvation on the streets.

This leads to either criminals waiting till stealth skills master, and thus never or rarely getting caught just to pull off the role.
Or getting killed, because you're the only damn criminal they can catch.

Not getting crimflagged for attacking elves might be a good change.

+1

Why would you want to see this added to the game?

I think it's just a jab at elves.  Even elves hate elves.

[CodeMaster]

Not getting crimflagged for attacking elves might be a good change.

+1

Why would you want to see this added to the game?

I think it's just a jab at elves.  Even elves hate elves.

I actually think it would be a cool racial addition.  It would change how they are played and how they're played around.  Maybe they could start with a high flee skill or something to compensate.  Just a random thought.

[Armaddict]

...so basically, you want to kill elves.

But you don't want to have to go to the alleys to do it, because you'd have people attacking you there, too.  You just want it to be so that they're essentially free game in the place where you can't be attacked.  Because it would somehow add to the game.

Wat?

Modify:  Agreed that this is a 'need for conflict' type thing.  Problem is people want to promote conflict without increasing risk, which makes serious problems logistically and with the reasoning behind it.  Unless you're saying you want elves to be uninvolved in crimcode altogether, like they can also attack you for no reason and not have soldiers after them.  Which I'm pretty sure is not the case.  The problem with elf-hate, is that even moreso than the logic behind why people choose not to hate mages (they might curse me in response), is elves are a very prevalent part of the populace.  They aren't just here and there, they're everywhere.  Trying to make something like this is the equivalent of promoting a genocide in game.  Is that...what you're going for?

[Majikal]

If all c-elves started in chargen with a silver longsword and iron platemail and dual guild choices.....

They'd still not receive play, cause c-elves suck.

[Desertman]

I also wish we could do away with the whole, "You have to get them to stand up to brawl them.", crap, at least for places like The Gaj.

Used to make people stand up for the brawl, when they were sitting, so that you could continue.

Got completely out of control.

Personally...I'd rather remove the brawl code, rather than accentuate it.  It pretty much turns players into morons.  "ABUSE ABUSE, HE WON'T STAND UP WHEN I WANT TO BEAT HIM UP."  Meanwhile, that someone is in the middle of something else distracting them from the game, and they don't -feel- like playing out your need to engage in literally meaningless pseudo combat because you're trying to appear tough and gritty, or to -really- show them that you don't like 'em!

Brawling is stupid, and I've gotten to the point with it that if someone starts looking like they're about to do it, I -feel- like sitting down out of general principle.

The wording of the messages, however, makes me think that the sitting thing was intentional.  "If you'd like to brawl them, you'll need to stand" gives the general impression that it's not intended as a way for one character to impose their will over another one, but a mutual experience.  I.e.  Someone beating the shit out of someone who isn't fighting back?  Still a crime.  That's how I view it.  Definitely don't view it as something that people need to be able to do more of...like I said.  I feel like people get pretty stupid with it already.

I completely agree with your sentiment if The Gaj or The Tooth were the local Irish Pub in real life. But it isn't, it's a Zalanthan tavern FULL of fighting and people stomping other people over basically nothing constantly.

The people who don't want to be part of that sort of atmosphere actually have taverns in game that offer a less gritty environment. They should go to those taverns instead of dumbing down the brawl code to the point it is for a bunch of wimps.

[Patuk]

I was wondering if there was more to it, but nope. It's a dumb idea, Armaddict explains why.

[Desertman]

I was wondering if there was more to it, but nope. It's a dumb idea, Armaddict explains why.

Because people are mean to you and hurt your feelings by beating you up in a rough and tumble tavern?

[Beethoven]

I think the whole no crim code for shanking elves thing is a suggestion is based on the fact that we are needy for SOME kind of violence that can happen openly in the streets without an immediate NPC half-giant army smackdown. Elves are among the lowest of the low, so people are suggesting that that's perhaps a place we can start. We're looking for a kind of crime no one will care about for the soldiers and templars to turn a blind eye to so we can bring more grit and danger into the streets. Is that about right?

[Patuk]

I was wondering if there was more to it, but nope. It's a dumb idea, Armaddict explains why.

Because people are mean to you and hurt your feelings by beating you up in a rough and tumble tavern?

I referred to the elf crimcode thing, I don't feel particularly strongly about brawl code.