Brawl Code (Split from RAT)

[Armaddict]

I was wondering if there was more to it, but nope. It's a dumb idea, Armaddict explains why.

Because people are mean to you and hurt your feelings by beating you up in a rough and tumble tavern?

I think he was talking about the genocide of elves, not the brawl code.

As far as the brawl code, tell me then, why it hasn't been expanded to where there isn't crimcode for attacking people with bare-hands?  Yes, the world is rough and tumble, but it's also measured against outright physical violence for the sake of general peace.  These rough taverns aren't an arena where a guy can go and pick someone at random and start beating the snot out of them.  Brawling is exactly that...drunken brawls between people picking fights with each other.  But in the case that a yielding person gets chosen 'at random', it becomes a crime...that guy isn't brawling, he's getting assaulted, which is where it turns into a crime.  That's not bar behavior, that's crime behavior.

Likewise, brawling isn't meant as a means of retribution, but entertainment.  Using brawling as a way to beat someone up without having to use combat is, frankly, ridiculous.  But that's what it's turned into...it went from a neat little realization of improving the atmosphere to whining about how you can't do it to anyone you want to and it doesn't do enough damage.  -Really-?

[CodeMaster]

...so basically, you want to kill elves.

Yes, but -

But you don't want to have to go to the alleys to do it, because you'd have people attacking you there, too.  You just want it to be so that they're essentially free game in the place where you can't be attacked.  Because it would somehow add to the game.

Wat?

So here's my thought process:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-qjnzqnqKM

I was just thinking to myself how it would be kind of silly to spec app a rat.  No languages, miniscule wisdom, a couple of stealth skills.

Then I thought it would be interesting to have to find food players left around, mostly shriveled masses of burned meat.

Then I thought it would be interesting that people would basically be able to attack me and even kill me on a whim.  I'd really have to play like a Zalanthan rat to survive long -- stay away from people, sneak and hide, and watch out for anyone looking at me crosseyed.

I figured it would be cool if there were another rat playing in the same area; we could raid food together.

Then I thought HEY!  They should add that as a novelty race.

Then I remembered there are city elves, and what if ...

Modify:  Agreed that this is a 'need for conflict' type thing.  Problem is people want to promote conflict without increasing risk, which makes serious problems logistically and with the reasoning behind it.  Unless you're saying you want elves to be uninvolved in crimcode altogether, like they can also attack you for no reason and not have soldiers after them.  Which I'm pretty sure is not the case.  The problem with elf-hate, is that even moreso than the logic behind why people choose not to hate mages (they might curse me in response), is elves are a very prevalent part of the populace.  They aren't just here and there, they're everywhere.  Trying to make something like this is the equivalent of promoting a genocide in game.  Is that...what you're going for?

Kind of, yeah.  Like it would be cool if there were at least settlements where certain races weren't even protected by the law, much in the way that rats aren't.  Or if at least in certain sectors of Allanak, elves or maybe half-elves and maybe even dwarves weren't crimflag protected.

[Desertman]

I was wondering if there was more to it, but nope. It's a dumb idea, Armaddict explains why.

Because people are mean to you and hurt your feelings by beating you up in a rough and tumble tavern?

I think he was talking about the genocide of elves, not the brawl code.

As far as the brawl code, tell me then, why it hasn't been expanded to where there isn't crimcode for attacking people with bare-hands?  Yes, the world is rough and tumble, but it's also measured against outright physical violence for the sake of general peace.  These rough taverns aren't an arena where a guy can go and pick someone at random and start beating the snot out of them.  Brawling is exactly that...drunken brawls between people picking fights with each other.  But in the case that a yielding person gets chosen 'at random', it becomes a crime...that guy isn't brawling, he's getting assaulted, which is where it turns into a crime.  That's not bar behavior, that's crime behavior.

Likewise, brawling isn't meant as a means of retribution, but entertainment.  Using brawling as a way to beat someone up without having to use combat is, frankly, ridiculous.  But that's what it's turned into...it went from a neat little realization of improving the atmosphere to whining about how you can't do it to anyone you want to and it doesn't do enough damage.  -Really-?

I wish the rough bars were coded so that you could engage someone in unarmed combat without the crim-code kicking in. That would be perfect in my opinion. Then if you continued to hit them after they were knocked out, if they didn't run, you would then be "charged with attempted murder", instead of just punching a guy you don't like in a tavern.

Your interpretation of Zalanthan brawls is two guys having a mutual boxing match where both parties have agreed to a semi-friendly round of fisticuffs.

I agree, that is what it is with the current code.

I just don't agree that it should be that way.

In my opinion people should have the option to randomly shit-kick someone in a rough Zalanthan tavern for no other reason than they dislike the way they look/smell/speak/they are just having a rotten day.

Rough taverns should be for rough people. Not people who want the option to bow out of getting their ass kicked because they "don't feel like it today". After all, they do have that option regardless. They can just leave the tavern.

[Jeax]

Kind of, yeah.  Like it would be cool if there were at least settlements where certain races weren't even protected by the law, much in the way that rats aren't.  Or if at least in certain sectors of Allanak, elves or maybe half-elves and maybe even dwarves weren't crimflag protected.

I think most of your post/idea is kind of meh, but you do raise an interesting point here. For example in Allanak, around the Red's Retreat area...the Commoner's Plaza, let's say...crimes against elves not being crimflagged. Not necessarily because "it's not against the law to smack an elf" but more like "Nobody in this part of town is going to enforce the law on behalf of an elf, because elves aren't welcome." -- I mean, elves are definitely not welcome in that area of town. I think that could be neat.

But it might be a little nightmarish code-wise.

[Beethoven]

Right now we are told that our dirty unclanned commoner PCs are unimportant losers that the powers that be would sooner use as human/elven footstools than waste a single neuron learning the names of, but the moment someone uses the "kick" command on an elf or a breed the entire NPC soldier population seems to see it as a critical threat to city-state security. A unit of half-giants curb-stomps the offenders! Templars rush in, brandishing their medallions and invoking their god-king-given powers! Holy columns of flame rain down from the Highlord's tower, demolishing entire city blocks!

I'm exaggerating, but you see the point. I don't agree that the crimcode shouldn't apply to elves. Elves are citizens, if grudgingly. But I see why people are suggesting that as a simple solution to the crimcode being ridiculously overbearing for crimes against people we are constantly told are completely unimportant--people whose scuffles and disagreements most people wouldn't even consider interesting gossip.

[Jeax]

I'm exaggerating, but you see the point. I don't agree that the crimcode shouldn't apply to elves. Elves are citizens, if grudgingly. But I see why people are suggesting that as a simple solution to the crimcode being ridiculously overbearing for crimes against people we are constantly told are completely unimportant--people whose scuffles and disagreements most people wouldn't even consider interesting gossip.

This is good, too. And I think we might get a stronger taste of "Armageddon" if this were the case. It would make everything more risky and such.

[hopeandsorrow]

Right now we are told that our dirty unclanned commoner PCs are unimportant losers that the powers that be would sooner use as human/elven footstools than waste a single neuron learning the names of, but the moment someone uses the "kick" command on an elf or a breed the entire NPC soldier population seems to see it as a critical threat to city-state security. A unit of half-giants curb-stomps the offenders! Templars rush in, brandishing their medallions and invoking their god-king-given powers! Holy columns of flame rain down from the Highlord's tower, demolishing entire city blocks!

I'm exaggerating, but you see the point. I don't agree that the crimcode shouldn't apply to elves. Elves are citizens, if grudgingly. But I see why people are suggesting that as a simple solution to the crimcode being ridiculously overbearing for crimes against people we are constantly told are completely unimportant--people whose scuffles and disagreements most people wouldn't even consider interesting gossip.

I think the issue is, by the same logic, crime code shouldn't apply to rinthi's. Free man laborers, breeds, dorfs  or immigrants.  At what rate we do we say "Fuck the crime code" do with all together? Since any one of value has NPC guards.
Are elves less valued then Breeds? Documentation states other wise. Reviled perhaps more.


If you want hard mode, just role a new pick pocket and start trying to steal from folks right out the gate.  You'll make it about one RL week before you have people trying to hire the Byn to make incursions into the Rinthi just to come after you.

[Beethoven]

I don't agree with it for that very reason, hopeandsorrow. "Elves" is kind of an arbitrary undesirable to pick. It's the crimcode that needs to be made more robust, really--you shouldn't just pick "elves" and decide to make a free-for-all out of them. But I think that's where the idea comes from.

[hopeandsorrow]

I don't agree with it for that very reason, hopeandsorrow. "Elves" is kind of an arbitrary undesirable to pick. It's the crimcode that needs to be made more robust, really--you shouldn't just pick "elves" and decide to make a free-for-all out of them. But I think that's where the idea comes from.

Derp I mis-read your post

[MeTekillot]

... "Elves" ... arbitrary undesirable ...

[Armaddict]

I'm exaggerating, but you see the point. I don't agree that the crimcode shouldn't apply to elves. Elves are citizens, if grudgingly. But I see why people are suggesting that as a simple solution to the crimcode being ridiculously overbearing for crimes against people we are constantly told are completely unimportant--people whose scuffles and disagreements most people wouldn't even consider interesting gossip.

This is good, too. And I think we might get a stronger taste of "Armageddon" if this were the case. It would make everything more risky and such.

...so do the crime, then explain it to a templar when you get dragged there.  You'll pay less than an elf in the same position.  In this way, that accuracy is maintained...the idea you guys keep getting at, is that you want more with less risk.  Risk is always there, though.  If you don't want to take the risk, you won't get to do the thing.

Along those same lines...elves being free game around places like the retreat.  You're treating the Retreat like it's a mecca of racial purity, when it's -clearly- not.  That would be places like the Arboretum or the Academy.  The Retreat is smack dab in the middle of the commoner's quarter, with an elven shopkeeper in it, and constant npc traffic past it...yes, including elves.  The problem is that people have the desire to be public, but are trying to put this new spin on the place by their roleplay.  Now...a noble sitting in said place says they want someone removed.  THAT is normal, and at that point, anyone ignoring the fact that there's npc soldiers around who would do that bidding is being blatant about their...well, it's basically trolling, to be honest.  However, in the absence of a noble or templar?  It's not the highbrow establishment that the Trader's was.  It's got no doorman.  It's not as clean or as nice.  There isn't the constant npc presence of nobility to show just what kind of patronage is always there.  Insisting otherwise IC is, really, just a marked attempt at imposition of will or a petty power display based off of factors that do not exist.

In my opinion people should have the option to randomly shit-kick someone in a rough Zalanthan tavern for no other reason than they dislike the way they look/smell/speak/they are just having a rotten day.

The city-state's orders are maintained with iron fists.  That's the running theme of templars, sorcerer-kings, and the zalanthan cities.  The one place you don't want to be is on the wrong side of the law, because then...a -templar- having a rotten day can do exactly what you're looking for.  With that in mind, this rough and tumble atmosphere that you're describing makes a lot less sense.  A bunch of people just going around shitkicking everyone they want to, because...hey!  It's the Gaj!  Like I said, it's not an arena.  It -is- a bar.  Fights -do- happen it, but not straight up criminal assaults.  The difference is between the pair of people that a barkeep today would say 'Take it outside!', and the one where the barkeep sees what's happening and immediately calls the police.  That's what exists...a legitimate tolerance, but an intolerance for things to get too far out of hand.

If you want to do a hit, a roughing up, a pushing over, of a target...the local bar, via brawl code, is -not- the way to do it.  Brawl code is, again, an entertainment, atmospheric addition to the game, not a way to circumvent the true conflict of the game.

[Tetra]

I wonder if playing in Tuluk comes easily to Americans.

One is a society with obvious social classes that shuns everyone not patriotic enough with a strict preference for domestically produced art that has a government spying on everyone and suppressing those on the bottom of society, the other is called Tuluk.

Tuluk is very South Indian if we had to draw a modern parallel.  The caste system is supposed to be abolished, but it actually isn't. It's still very much a part of the country's psyche and proliferates the culture.

India was also occupied by the British and struggled for their independence and freedom, which is a huge touchstone of Tuluk's own past.

Tuluki patriotism is also more nuanced. They don't just say they are proud, but genuinely believe they are superior. In that sense they're very.... Canadian. Because of the 'acceptance' of tribals.

[Jeax]

...so do the crime, then explain it to a templar when you get dragged there.  You'll pay less than an elf in the same position.  In this way, that accuracy is maintained...the idea you guys keep getting at, is that you want more with less risk.  Risk is always there, though.  If you don't want to take the risk, you won't get to do the thing.

Incorrect. Removing risk from petty (or not so petty, area depending) crime actually creates additional risk to everything except petty crime. The point is that it would create a more realistic environment, that Templars and soldiers wouldn't trouble themselves over every little thing, and it certainly wouldn't be a huge dogpile with pillars of fire.

[Armaddict]

...so do the crime, then explain it to a templar when you get dragged there.  You'll pay less than an elf in the same position.  In this way, that accuracy is maintained...the idea you guys keep getting at, is that you want more with less risk.  Risk is always there, though.  If you don't want to take the risk, you won't get to do the thing.

Incorrect. Removing risk from petty (or not so petty, area depending) crime actually creates additional risk to everything except petty crime. The point is that it would create a more realistic environment, that Templars and soldiers wouldn't trouble themselves over every little thing, and it certainly wouldn't be a huge dogpile with pillars of fire.

I think you need what that response is responding to.  It has nothing to do with petty crime, it's about protection through crimcode for 'the wrong people'.

[Desertman]

In my opinion people should have the option to randomly shit-kick someone in a rough Zalanthan tavern for no other reason than they dislike the way they look/smell/speak/they are just having a rotten day.

The city-state's orders are maintained with iron fists.  That's the running theme of templars, sorcerer-kings, and the zalanthan cities.  The one place you don't want to be is on the wrong side of the law, because then...a -templar- having a rotten day can do exactly what you're looking for.  With that in mind, this rough and tumble atmosphere that you're describing makes a lot less sense.  A bunch of people just going around shitkicking everyone they want to, because...hey!  It's the Gaj!  Like I said, it's not an arena.  It -is- a bar.  Fights -do- happen it, but not straight up criminal assaults.  The difference is between the pair of people that a barkeep today would say 'Take it outside!', and the one where the barkeep sees what's happening and immediately calls the police.  That's what exists...a legitimate tolerance, but an intolerance for things to get too far out of hand.

If you want to do a hit, a roughing up, a pushing over, of a target...the local bar, via brawl code, is -not- the way to do it.  Brawl code is, again, an entertainment, atmospheric addition to the game, not a way to circumvent the true conflict of the game.

I disagree with your interpretation of the Gaj atmosphere. I think it is absolutely the sort of place where things like that happen constantly and with absolutely nobody caring one way or another if it is a vicious beating or a mutual agreement to have a boxing match.

So long as you aren't yanking a blade, everyone is fair game to get beat down. If you aren't strong enough to be part of that crowd, get out, because nobody wants to hear you crying and nobody cares if you lose every tooth in your head. (Not you as the player obviously, I am talking in "The Gaj" first person.)

[Armaddict]

Except that, historically speaking, in a drunken atmosphere...

No deaths?  Really?

[Desertman]

Except that, historically speaking, in a drunken atmosphere...

No deaths?  Really?

I'm not sure what you are asking here.

[Barzalene]

My issue with the brawl code has always been  the lack of malevolence.

[BadSkeelz]

Even if people die in a Gaj brawl, they're probably not of the right socioeconomic strata for the Templarate to give an active shit. They're commoners. Every moment spent scrapping amongst themselves is one less moment where they could be posing a challenge to authority.

[Armaddict]

Except that, historically speaking, in a drunken atmosphere...

No deaths?  Really?

I'm not sure what you are asking here.

You're using the atmosphere put into the game to come to the conclusion that the Gaj is beyond-wild-west, using room echoes, the room description, and so forth.  However, it's clear via soldier presence and those same atmospheric givens that -excessive- violence isn't exactly permitted.  I.e. There are no bodies being taken out, referred to and so on.  There is no 'atmospheric given' to base your assumption that it's completely unwatched and unregulated.  Likewise...I say beyond-wild-west, because even in wild-west, brawls that went too far resulted in drunk tanks.  You're implanting this smack dab into an ordered, despotic, military-police style society in order to assert that in this one place, there is no protection.

What it comes down to is that these -are- boxing matches.  Not with a ring, but with two people standing up and going at each other until either one draws a weapon, or one wins the fight.  I'm asserting that such makes sense, but that the idea that the Gaj somehow becomes the 'street justice' hub of the city is inaccurate.  Just like -everywhere else- in the city, you can't just walk in, drag someone out of their seat, and have vicious violence ensue.  Otherwise, it would be the number one place for criminal business to be done.

In the end...I remain right where I stood before, completely unconvinced, and completely disenchanted with code that -was- good for atmosphere, but has been twisted into something it's not.  If you are trying to do something -more- than brawl, you use the code already in place...which is combat code.

[Armaddict]

My issue with the brawl code has always been  the lack of malevolence.

What do you mean by that?  That you agree that it should cause more harm?  That it's used frivolously as entertainment?  That people aren't mean enough with it?

[Desertman]

Except that, historically speaking, in a drunken atmosphere...

No deaths?  Really?

I'm not sure what you are asking here.

You're using the atmosphere put into the game to come to the conclusion that the Gaj is beyond-wild-west, using room echoes, the room description, and so forth.  However, it's clear via soldier presence and those same atmospheric givens that -excessive- violence isn't exactly permitted.  I.e. There are no bodies being taken out, referred to and so on.  There is no 'atmospheric given' to base your assumption that it's completely unwatched and unregulated.  Likewise...I say beyond-wild-west, because even in wild-west, brawls that went too far resulted in drunk tanks.  You're implanting this smack dab into an ordered, despotic, military-police style society in order to assert that in this one place, there is no protection.

What it comes down to is that these -are- boxing matches.  Not with a ring, but with two people standing up and going at each other until either one draws a weapon, or one wins the fight.  I'm asserting that such makes sense, but that the idea that the Gaj somehow becomes the 'street justice' hub of the city is inaccurate.  Just like -everywhere else- in the city, you can't just walk in, drag someone out of their seat, and have vicious violence ensue.  Otherwise, it would be the number one place for criminal business to be done.

In the end...I remain right where I stood before, completely unconvinced, and completely disenchanted with code that -was- good for atmosphere, but has been twisted into something it's not.  If you are trying to do something -more- than brawl, you use the code already in place...which is combat code.

I am taking the atmosphere of the game, using rooms echoes, and room descriptions to come to my conclusions.

Your stance is that because soldiers are present at times that means that brawls should be mutual agreements to have a boxing match.

I disagree. I think the soldiers are only there to keep people from stabbing each other and openly trying to kill each other beyond just beating each other senseless.

I also remain exactly where I was, and remain enchanted with the idea of a brawl code that reflects the aforementioned atmosphere of the game, room echoes, and room descriptions.

[Desertman]

The brawl code represents a very specific kind of non-lethal combat. It requires willing participants who all understand that they're not trying to seriously injure the other guy.

If your proposed partner fails to enter into this "tavern-time agreement" with you, you still have other, more lethal options at your disposal.

From this thread, awhile ago, about the same issue.http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30923.0.html

As I said...people are trying to use it for what it's not.  If you're looking to assert dominance on someone who has no interest in fighting, you'll need to use combat code, and the local, crowded bar with soldiers in it isn't the place.

(Yanked over to this thread for Armaddict since it wasn't snagged in the split.)

I absolutely agree that is the current state of the brawl code. No disagreement at all on that front. In fact, I think I stated that is what I don't like about it and what I want to change about it.

[Barzalene]

My issue with the brawl code has always been  the lack of malevolence.

What do you mean by that?  That you agree that it should cause more harm?  That it's used frivolously as entertainment?  That people aren't mean enough with it?

Mostly that it is used frivolously, and people aren't mean enough. I can't say if that is because of the lack of harm or not.

[Desertman]

My issue with the brawl code has always been  the lack of malevolence.

What do you mean by that?  That you agree that it should cause more harm?  That it's used frivolously as entertainment?  That people aren't mean enough with it?

Mostly that it is used frivolously, and people aren't mean enough. I can't say if that is because of the lack of harm or not.

If it caused more harm I believe people would be less likely to use it as frivolously.