Modern westernized cultural values IG

[BadSkeelz]

Some parts/organizations of Zalanthas are more meritocratic than others. Some organizations can vary themselves.

The militia might have a Templar who promotes soldiers based their abilities. Or based on how much they suck up. Or how hot they are. Or by rolling the dice. It's all up to the whim of the leader, ultimately.

Nobles are also always always better than commoners. Not just socially ranked, but intrinsically believed to be better.

[Patuk]

I'm confused how Zalanthas isn't a meritocracy. It seems most tribes are ruled in this fashion. In the cities if you aren't productive you aren't getting anywhere fast.

Wouldn't meritocracy not use 'noble birth=better than everyone' and only do strictly 'only people that can function good = better than everyone'

You, sir, are correct. A commoner and a templar in training may both attend the Tor academy, but only one of the two can ever become a general.

And tribes usually lack a real government, which is perfectly historically reasonable.

[Jeax]

The whole mate and jealousy thing isn't a western thing, it's a HUMAN thing.   Humans of most cultures throughout history pair up into couples.  Whether or not they stay together for life is really culturally dependent.  

And humans are also envious and jealous of all kinds of things, sex, money, ability, etc.  It's perfectly IC from a Zalanthian perspective to be jealous if someone is banging the same person as you, if your character is a naturally jealous person.  Being a jealous person is not universally the norm though.  It's a more uncommon trait in Zalanthas.  The saying "I caught her sleeping with another man" would not be viewed as some kind of kind of deviant act or accusation.  It might piss your PC off, but no one else would care at all or think it was somehow wrong.

This is a good observation, and it looks correct at first. However, this is operating off of a few different presuppositions. To point out a couple important ones:
1. You are presupposing that envy is part of human nature (I would say that it is not; instead that it is a universal trait)
2. You are presupposing that Zalanthan humans have the same nature as us.

What creates envy within humans? Kierkegaard would say that it is the "despair to be one's self" and Nietzsche would point to psychological causes. Kierkegaard's stance requires a belief in the soul/spirit, and Nietzsche's tries to stay purely metaphysical.

So, our nature is a product of: God/gods and environment/ancestry/evolution

This being said, Zalanthas has completely different of each of those things. Would it not be reasonable, then, that Zalanthan humans do not share our nature?

In this way, to read the documentation's scope of this topic (that polygamy is common and expected, commoners don't marry, etc) I think it would also fit, since not specifically mentioned, that there is no cause to be jealous in Zalanthas because of these things, because it is not necessarily a part of a Zalanthan human's nature to do so.

To this effect, we would have to have a comment from an Administrator or the documentation to say that a Zalanthan human is the same as an Earth human in every regard in such matters.

*waits for Talia to  his post*

[RogueGunslinger]

Staff have already said as much multiple times that humans in Zalanthas are = to humans in real life. Usually in response to questions about them being more hardy/stronger or able to heal from injuries.

Even if that wasn't the case it'd be really easy to see why jealousy and envy would be common part of mating. They are both present without regards to sex, why wouldn't they be there with regard to it? Just because it's normal to have multiple lovers doesn't mean it's normal to not feel envious when you see someone kissing your other lover. Much in the same why you might feel irritated that someone keeps taking your favorite sparring sword from the rack before you can get to it. Or that tinge of anger you might feel when the person who's borrowing your beetle spurs it a bit too hard too often.

Why would sex and relationships suddenly be immune to this sort of jealousy?

[Jeax]

Why would sex and relationships suddenly be immune to this sort of jealousy?

Because of different human natures.

[RogueGunslinger]

What part of the Zalanthan culture would make that so?

[Beethoven]

Sure, I didn't mean obese. I just meant the word "rubenesque" and "fat" (as a noun) popping up more in female mdescs. You go, ladies.

About the monogamy thing, being in monogamous relationships all my life, I used to have a hard time understanding the docs on monogamy and polygamy in Zalanthas. Then I entered a long-term, more "open" (although we don't really use that word) relationship. We haven't slept around yet or anything, but it's on the table. We joke about it and it's something that's definitely an option. It doesn't even really seem like a "thing" anymore. We know that jealousy will probably be something that crops up when or if we decide to do stuff with other people, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there, and we'll talk about it. We truly love each other and don't want to lock down each other's bodies.

I'm not saying that Zalanthans would necessarily all be so loving and open with one another as my partner and I are, but being in this kind of relationship, I definitely can understand a culture where it's just...not a big deal. I'm sure jealousy is still a thing in Zalanthan polygamous relationships, and it can still sneak up on people when they don't even think it's going to. Maybe it strikes suddenly, even after there's been a lot of fooling around. Maybe they were fine with it if they didn't have to see it. Maybe it's not the sex that bothers them, but it hurts to find out that their lover has been buying one of their supposedly insignificant others expensive gifts. There are lots of possibilities. We don't have to pretend that jealousy doesn't exist on Zalanthas just because polygamy is common. My two cents anyway.

[Barzalene]

Jealousy doesn't preclude polygamy. Both things can occur at once.

[KankWhisperer]

I think people are throwing around "modern westernized cultural values" as if that means anything. In the United States you have anarchists, communists and fascists. You have deeply religious people, agnostics, and athiests. Etc, and so on. Racism is definitely still a thing and for subtler differences than exist on Armageddon.

My main problem with the "Armageddon cultural values" is that some staff waved their hand and said -everyone- isn't sexist and -everyone- is promiscuous and so on across all the cultures basically. That just seems more unrealistic than magick.

[wizturbo]

Because of different human natures.

Zalanthian humans are not radically different in psychology than real life.   Nothing I've read or seen ever suggests that Zalanthian humans don't experience jealousy, envy, or any other emotion that humans on Earth experience.

The only reason for the staff posting about polygamy/monogamy is to say that "slut shaming" in Zalanthas does not exist for men or women alike.  There is no social convention against having multiple sexual partners.  That doesn't limit any range of emotion that comes with that interaction though.  

My main problem with the "Armageddon cultural values" is that some staff waved their hand and said -everyone- isn't sexist and -everyone- is promiscuous and so on across all the cultures basically. That just seems more unrealistic than magick.

I think that playing a PC that is sexist or hates promiscuous people could be acceptable role-play, as an individual whose an exception to the norm, as long as they understand that such prejudice is abnormal and isn't likely to get much if any support from their peers.  I don't really see what value there is in playing a sexist, or someone who hates promiscuous people though.  I can't really fathom a character concept where this would be awesome and fun.  You might as well hate people who like the color blue, or look down upon people who wear leather instead of chitin armor...pretty arbitrary and uninspired for a world where there's so much you can hate freely.  Magickers, elves, breeds, northerners, southerns, red stormers, tribals, Kuraci's, Kadian's, nobles, templars...you name it, you can hate it, and have some pretty great reasons for it too. 

[KankWhisperer]

 Magickers, elves, breeds, northerners, southerns, red stormers, tribals, Kuraci's, Kadian's, nobles, templars...you name it, you can hate it, and have some pretty great reasons for it too.

Except those other two things, because reasons that are totally not based on modern feelings of game staff at one point.

I just don't like the whole every culture on Zalanthas universally believes -this-, whatever -this- is.

[Jeax]

I think that playing a PC that is sexist or hates promiscuous people could be acceptable role-play, as an individual whose an exception to the norm, as long as they understand that such prejudice is abnormal and isn't likely to get much if any support from their peers.  I don't really see what value there is in playing a sexist, or someone who hates promiscuous people though.  I can't really fathom a character concept where this would be awesome and fun.  You might as well hate people who like the color blue, or look down upon people who wear leather instead of chitin armor...pretty arbitrary and uninspired.  /shrug

This is the only reasonable response I see to my raised argument. I also agree with the assertion about documentation, and have, I was just raising an important point about that thought.

I, however, can see plenty of value in playing a sexist or something, if that's what you want to do. People play a racist all the time, but of course that's built into the documentation. I think that's part of the freedom...IRL if you want to be a racist serial killer rapist, you can do that. You may even find beauty in it. But...the surrounding world is going to kill you. So it is in Armageddon. But, this has nothing to do with cultural presuppositions within the game world unfortunately, so we should venture back on topic I suppose.

[wizturbo]

I think we all have to cut the staff a little slack too, they aren't philosophers or lawyers by trade who are excited about the prospect of writing a 50 page Supreme Court opinion to fully explain the intricacies of Zalanthian sexuality.    

[Patuk]

Nobody cares about the why. That your stated reason of disliking the no sexism policy is that maybe some staffer wanted to make a point only makes you come across as whiny. Even if whomever added the no sexism clause did so because they are some evil lesbian misandrenist feminist who wanted to ruin everything for everyone, allowing no sexism in-game holds merit.

[Is Friday]

I'm glad for the "no sexism" rule. It makes the game more playable for both male and female players. Who cares about the "logic" of it.

[Down Under]

I'm glad for the "no sexism" rule. It makes the game more playable for both male and female players. Who cares about the "logic" of it.

Agreed 100%.

[Barsook]

I'm glad for the "no sexism" rule. It makes the game more playable for both male and female players. Who cares about the "logic" of it.

Agreed 100%.

[CodeMaster]

oblig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Qn1uHlRIY

[TheWanderer]

Rounding back to relationships, I'd prefer to see more envy/jealousy.

Sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas, yes. That doesn't mean there can't be a domineering alpha in the relationship, gender having no bearing on which would claim the role.

Secondly (I guess?), if I could change one thing about the docs, it'd be the way it sort of alienates you (more due to the player's interpretation of the select paragraph) for roleplaying a character that craves some sort of intimacy. We're supposed to be living in this harsh, cutthroat environment, but we suddenly strip ourselves nude (well, not the chitin-shelled warriors,huehueheuheuheheheh) with every attractive lay in sight.

Wanting your boo to appreciate you and solely you isn't necessarily a western value. It's like, you know, a cookie with free will. If my cookie wants to get gnawed on for a night with some stranger, that's my cookie's choice. Doesn't mean I like you eating my cookie. It gets me kinda pissed, actually. That's -my- cookie. We had some good times, and maybe I don't like to share. Maybe I like to think my cookie and I are satisfied with just each other's company. Maybe it hurts when my cookie wants more than just me.

[Molten Heart]

Some people don't like to share. I don't see how that'd be different in Zalanthas when dealing with intimate relationships.

[whitt]

My bet is most folks don't stick around in the same place for many "modern" monogamous relationships to exist.

[racurtne]

My bet is most folks don't stick around in the same place for many "modern" monogamous relationships to exist.

If you are a city-dweller, you have likely never left the walls. It's dangerous out there. (This is the baseline, obviously PCs are crazy.)

[Bast]

I have always loved arm because as someone who is bi-sexual IRL its been refreshing to play a game where your allowed to be however you want to be and I also thinks that straight sometimes. Not everyone has to treat sex like a hand shake and their is nothing wrong if you do. I do DISLIKE it when someone tries to icly pressure you into sex with them with the implied pressure that if your not having sex with them your a poor roll-player for not 'living up to the norm' . Just because you can be polyamorous doesn't mean you have to be..just because you can be gay doesn't mean you can't be straight. Sexual preference is something your born with not something cultural ingrained in you. Unless we are saying people -choose- to be Gay? Which is something I for one am happy we are getting past as a species.

One thing that does humor though about the Western culture thing is the alarming number of times I have gotten weird ic reactions for breast feeding in game. That is very much an American Taboo. My cousin is half Persian her husband is from Iran but she was raised State side. Recently they went to visit his family with their new baby....she had total culture shock...apparently breast feeding is the Persian version of jingling car keys and pacifiers. Every time Madison so much as made a peep one of Amir's sisters or his mother would encourage her to nurse. This encouragement I am told sometimes took the form of pointed looks and raised eyebrows in disapproval.  This really threw her off as we are talking about a country where woman have to keep their heads covered in public but apparently breast feeding is not only accepted but in no way something a woman should be nervous or ashamed of, in fact its expected.  I just don't think anyone in arm would bat an eyelash at mother breast feeding a kid. Its not like there is baby food and the longer you keep them on the tit the more coin you save on bread.

[Revenant]

So yes, is the thread bait-ish? Maybe it could be under the right terms, but I'm putting my trust in the maturity of the playerbase. Productive? Seems to be so far. I'll gladly risk causing some flaming if this can somehow help us all get on the same page eventually. Lot of good posts so far, thanks all.

[Barzalene]

My interpretation has always been that your PC can be as straight/gay/bi/asexual as they want to be and as monogamous, polygamous, hedonistic or abstinate as they choose.