Modern westernized cultural values IG

[Revenant]

I will try not to state an opinion one way or the other on this subject, nor will I make the question less vague. Instead, I'd like to hear the thoughts of the GDB on the way real life, culturally ingrained personal values end up being expressed in game, and on how appropriate various concepts may or may not be to the setting. Possibly selfish of me to conceal my own viewpoint, so, thoughts? What is and is not appropriate to carry over, across all possible topics? Why or why not?

[Malken]

Constantly referring to elves as "Jews" ICly is not okay.

"That 'rinthi jew stole from me the other day!" or "Don't sleep with that tall jew over there, he's a Nakki thief and everyone knows it."

[CodeMaster]

This thread might turn into a thread full of vague and anonymous accusations if we're not careful.

How about instead we talk about examples of where people have done a great job?


My input:  I once saw a character who was injured, and he sealed his cuts by filling them with grit and dirt.  Showed a complete disregard for western medicine that I sometimes forget about in the game.

[Revenant]

This thread might turn into a thread full of vague and anonymous accusations if we're not careful.

How about instead we talk about examples of where people have done a great job?


My input:  I once saw a character who was injured, and he sealed his cuts by filling them with grit and dirt.  Showed a complete disregard for western medicine that I sometimes forget about in the game.

How about we talk about both? And great example, kudos.

EDIT: There's a reason I'm not giving my personal viewpoint, or pointing out positive examples from certain officially submitted logs here, and that's because I'm avoiding making any vague or anonymous accusations, even in a roundabout way. I've already gone through the appropriate channels on those, it wasn't a concern, apparently, and I'm starting to think maybe my concept of the game-world is the one that's skewed.

[Barzalene]

Sergeant Dowan? and the militia at that  time,  used to treat undesirables with a brilliant casual  disdain. No seats at the bar? Move a breed. Slow night? Beat an elf. But it was all in a day's work.

[wizturbo]

Role-playing is a skill like any other.  Most of us start with Role-play (novice).  

We start with what we know in real life, and then as our RP chops improve, we start to get rid of excess baggage from the real world and get more and more in character.

People who are new to role playing are naturally going to have some of their RL values spill over until they reach at least Role-Play (Apprentice).  The best way to address this is to help people skill up by setting a great example, or perhaps responding ICly to make it evident they've made a Role-Play (novice) mistake.

[Riev]

When I first started, I slept in the streets to get stamina back, I fought hard and slept off the damage, and I pretended to be myself.

Now, I know better.

Now, I sleep in the streets because I don't own an apartment. I fight hard because the Byn trains hard. I pretend to be someone with personality quirks similar to myself to explore my own being.


Now I know better.

[BadSkeelz]

Is this about gay characters? I suspect this is about gay characters.

[Molten Heart]

Is this about gay characters? I suspect this is about gay characters.

Probably, and straight characters.

[Delirium]

ArmageddonMUD: one of the few places where it is NOT okay for a female character to be anything but bisexual or gay.

edit: I'm joking. Mostly. I've seen this attitude in game, and it strikes me as ironically funny.

[Revenant]

Is this about gay characters? I suspect this is about gay characters.

Probably, and straight characters.

I never said what instances it might be about, nor are the particulars of my experiences very important here. Also, I already said I'm not going to go lobbing vague, accusatory statements.

[valeria]

Arm is not real life.  There are no modern, westernized values in game.  Only Zalanthan values.  And we know what those are because of documentation.  It's appropriate to carry values consistent with the docs and not appropriate to retain your RL prejudices just because you have them.  

[BadSkeelz]

Then this thread's gone about as far as it's going to get. I think wizturbo's post about RP and RL values is spot on:

People who are new to role playing are naturally going to have some of their RL values spill over until they reach at least Role-Play (Apprentice).  The best way to address this is to help people skill up by setting a great example, or perhaps responding ICly to make it evident they've made a Role-Play (novice) mistake.

Armageddon's world depth and complexity make this easy to do. My favorite example of someone making a mistake like this is when I had a thief in the jail cells who claimed he got pinched while trying to steal a chicken.

[Malken]

Is it about how many assume that if your PC has almond-shaped eyes then they assume that you don't know how to drive a wagon?

[Down Under]

Disregarding modern concept of Medicine is one of the hardest things to get away from, especially with Houses like Dasari in existence. I've seen Dasari Nobles do an excellent job with approximating 'what might be right' but is totally crazy and backwards from how we think in the modern, western world. I've seen others adapt more Eastern techniques of 'healing' and I felt that was more appropriate too. I have a feeling their documentation outlines this pretty well -- You aren't a scientist in the western sense of the word, but a tinkerer in an ancient, messed up old-technology-got-destroyed sort of way.

I think racism translates pretty directly, except sexism usually worms its way in as well. As we know, sexism isn't a thing in Zalanthas. Women are considered just as capable as men in all respects. However, our sexist values still translate somewhat, even perpetuated by f-me PCs that demean themselves, rather than be demeaned. That isn't to say all women should be playing buff warriors, but comments here and there, and thought processes are difficult to overcome when we are indoctrinated in it from our youth.

[BadSkeelz]

Arm is not real life.  There are no modern, westernized values in game.  Only Zalanthan values.  And we know what those are because of documentation.  It's appropriate to carry values consistent with the docs and not appropriate to retain your RL prejudices just because you have them.  

i will confess that i really do hate magicians and elves in RL and apologize for bringing my RL attitudes to armageddon.

[Marauder Moe]

I always found it a little strange how every single pregnant PC suddenly develops an allergy to alcohol.

[Barzalene]

I always found it a little strange how every single pregnant PC suddenly develops an allergy to alcohol.

Happily not every. (But a significant majority, its too true.)

[wizturbo]

I always found it a little strange how every single pregnant PC suddenly develops an allergy to alcohol.

Gotta save up coin to pay for that spice addiction.

[Patuk]

Everyone who gets pissy whenever the person they're banging looks at somebody else wrong is the first thing to come to mind. The docs are very clear about promiscuity being common, but I still notice people referring to sleeping with other people as betrayal.

It also still is really hard playing a low-class PC in Tuluk. Every time I try, some people too good for this sinful earth express their disappointment and insist that I 'make something of myself' and 'leave that kind of life behind,' the implication being that my PC would have a shot at that, or that social mobility is something positive.

Tuluk is not an equalist, democratic society. Tuluk is a military dictatorship with a rigid caste system. People born to noble parents should remain noble. People born in poverty remain like so. Poor people being poor, stealing things, and getting into trouble isn't some kind of great social tragedy or injustice, it's nature working its intended course and things going well.

[Down Under]

I agree -- The castes should (especially with the lack of Grey Hunt) be much more rigid. There's always this sense that you can 'make something of yourself' when you are a Commoner -- It'd be nice if it felt less like climbing the corporate ladder in America, and being lifted out of your caste was truly a remarkable thing, not taken for granted.

[Molten Heart]

Everyone who gets pissy whenever the person they're banging looks at somebody else wrong is the first thing to come to mind. The docs are very clear about promiscuity being common, but I still notice people referring to sleeping with other people as betrayal.

It also still is really hard playing a low-class PC in Tuluk. Every time I try, some people too good for this sinful earth express their disappointment and insist that I 'make something of myself' and 'leave that kind of life behind,' the implication being that my PC would have a shot at that, or that social mobility is something positive.

Tuluk is not an equalist, democratic society. Tuluk is a military dictatorship with a rigid caste system. People born to noble parents should remain noble. People born in poverty remain like so. Poor people being poor, stealing things, and getting into trouble isn't some kind of great social tragedy or injustice, it's nature working its intended course and things going well.

It'd be interesting if people in Tuluk tried to keep people oppressed rather than encouranging them to better themselves. I mean some people are just born better, you know? ;-)

[Barzalene]

If Bobby is really alright for a breed, that doesn't make hi. One of the guys. It just means you're less likely to trip him on the steps, for a laugh.  In my opinion.

[BadSkeelz]

It would be interesting if Tuluk had a real caste system and not just a re-titled class system. Where you'd specapp in as a Hunter and, so long as you're in Tuluk, that is all you ever can be. But this might just me taking my RL conception of what a caste system should be like and applying it to a Zalanthan system that happens to have the same name.

[Patuk]

This may be not quite the right thread for this tangent, but I do think the commoner caste could use an expansion. A poor dwarf beggar, House Kadius' head, and Rusarla's master bard are all in the same formal caste. To use earth's most famous caste system as an example, India's caste system often came with ranks. A low-ranked kshatriya would be labeled a soldier, whereas a high-ranked kshatriya would be a ruler. I do not think Tuluk needs an exact copy, but I do think a lot of people need to be reminded thatlayabouts being useless is probably not a bad thing in the eyes of most other people.

[BadSkeelz]

The problem with instituting a system like that, Patuk, is that you'd have to have people essentially spec-app in to their caste ranks. That'd be an enormous headache for staff and players to set up.

Back (somewhat) on topic: Jealousy and possessiveness re: sexuality doesn't bother me. However, I wouldn't call someone a slut, unless (maybe) if they were sleeping around with people "Beneath" them. And I'd probably still phrase it differently.

[Patuk]

I'm not so sure about that. Scars are free, as are Tuluki caste tattoos. All you'd need to do is add a person to the Tuluki starter rooms to add artisan, merchant, etc caste tattoos. For those people who want to postpone it, you can let templars and people of rank in the specific caste ink the appropriate tattoos, too.

[Delirium]

Players just need to stop reacting poorly whenever someone better treats their characters as lesser.

I don't care if you've been around 1 day or 100 days, you're still a filthy commoner/halfbreed/elf/dwarf/whatever.

I don't care how many amazing things you've done, you're still an elf and that's still a noble you're talking to.

This isn't girlscout camp, this is Armageddon. Inequality is the reality and it should stay that way.

[bardlyone]

I'm not so sure about that. Scars are free, as are Tuluki caste tattoos. All you'd need to do is add a person to the Tuluki starter rooms to add artisan, merchant, etc caste tattoos. For those people who want to postpone it, you can let templars and people of rank in the specific caste ink the appropriate tattoos, too.

No idea what Tuluk is like but this sounds neato.

[whitt]

Players just need to stop reacting poorly whenever someone better treats their characters as lesser.

I don't care if you've been around 1 day or 100 days, you're still a filthy commoner/halfbreed/elf/dwarf/whatever.

I don't care how many amazing things you've done, you're still an elf and that's still a noble you're talking to.

This isn't girlscout camp, this is Armageddon. Inequality is the reality and it should stay that way.

+1

[RogueGunslinger]

The OP may not want to make vague accusations and complaints but the thread is certainly set up to allow other people to do that.

[nauta]

The OP may not want to make vague accusations and complaints but the thread is certainly set up to allow other people to do that.

I agree, the setup of this thread strikes me as bait-ish.

Everyone knows that you shouldn't have modern westernized cultural values IG.  Sometimes people make mistakes.

[Revenant]

The OP may not want to make vague accusations and complaints but the thread is certainly set up to allow other people to do that.

I agree, the setup of this thread strikes me as bait-ish.

Everyone knows that you shouldn't have modern westernized cultural values IG.  Sometimes people make mistakes.

"everyone knows"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Further, it strikes me that possibly everyone doesn't know, possibly I don't.

[Beethoven]

I like it when fat (not just sort of curvy) people are seen as very desirable. Not everyone has to have a taste for them, of course, because everyone is different, but I've been seeing a bit more of that lately, so kudos.

[Jihelu]

For the sexuality thing...it seems to be one of the most open things ever.
Simply going "Your male bits don't get me going" could be a rather good explanation, and probably get little more than a "Okay" while in real life you have people who would question "WELL WHAT WOULD JESUS DO" (Exaggeration but I digress) so if anything, thats one of the things that don't carry over.

As stated, I really like the whole 'big people =better life/person' thing. Rome had that from what I know.
I've never seen anything regarding women, which I find a bit surprising. Nothing major like "You can't do this because you are a woman" but I've yet to hear any "Weak ass woman" comments or something of the sort, or comments on how they are decommissioned from a good portion of the year if they decide to fuck someone.

I really like it when people treat my character like shit.
Not in the 'dickish' sort of way. But the whole 'I am literally better than you get out of the way' type.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not really sure if I like the big=beautiful thing. It has decent RL cultural basis but at the same time I imagine Zalanthans to be much more practical about carrying extra weight, and being physically capable. I think instead of thinking of fat people as attractive it would be more like you associate fat people with nobility, intelligence and wealth. You wouldn't short-change a fat merchant because you'd perceive them as above you in status. You wouldn't talk over someone who's got a bit of heft to them, because if they're smart enough to keep that well fed, they're probably smarter than you.

See a fat 'rinther? They're more capable and worth talking to than the half-starved kinds, they would be more worth your business, but you wouldn't find their weight attractive.

[Jeax]

Oh, western presuppositions are all over Armageddon play.

Think about how the majority of people react to slaves in Allanak. Even my first reaction to seeing slaves IG was "Don't you want to be free?" (I didn't say this IG, fortunately) -- but this happens some. In addition, people *do* treat women differently IG, it's just not as obvious as saying "You hit like a girl!". Pay attention, women are definitely treated differently and in a very modern, western way. The whole "problem with authority" thing does also come out a lot. We, as westerners, just have no concept of what it's like to truly believe that someone is born above you, so it's very difficult to RP it, especially when American culture has a very "you can't tell me what to do"/"I make my own way"/etc theme inside of it anyway. In addition, American culture is all about "tolerance and equality" -- it's the very basis for our evolving moral system, and those beliefs have absolutely no place in Armageddon. Another example is the taking of "mates" and the jealousy and drama that develops therein. I'm sure there are other examples I'm missing. Some of them are quite subtle.

But, how can you truly lose all of your presuppositions when you enter the game world? Is it an impossibility of the game, to have rules that are so far from what our roots are? Can we really get into the mindset, and defeat generations of outlook? It's a really challenging thing, and it's all over the place.

Fortunately, I don't find it to affect the game in a negative way too often. Some people are just bad players, but that's a different issue. Instead, what ends up happening is that Armageddon world is actually just a little bit different than what the docs say, because we can't really get to what the docs say, for the most part.

Edit: Another interesting piece here is, think of the Highlord, and the Sun King...why are the two most powerful beings in the world (and thus leaders) male? Why isn't there a Sun Queen or some such? Presuppositions, and very subtle thoughts, most likely.

[Molten Heart]

As far as practicality when it comes to attractive females. A woman with more "fat" would be a better mate for breeding. However Zalanthas isn't like RL where there is a biological drive to reproduce. If the same were to hold true for Zalanthas, a "healthy" looking type of fat woman might be considered attractive.

[BadSkeelz]

However Zalanthas isn't like RL where there is a biological drive to reproduce

say whaaaa?

[Jeax]

However Zalanthas isn't like RL where there is a biological drive to reproduce

say whaaaa?

Say wha indeed. In RL we are actually losing our drive to reproduce, due to overpopulation (see google for studies to this effect, regarding a great many of topics from sexual preference to male isolation)--Zalanthas is not overpopulated. People die every day, and people are aware of this fact. People are just too busy surviving to worry about it. In reality, though, I think most of the women in Zalanthas would be constantly pregnant.

Edit: Also, the docs clearly state that Zalanthans are obsessed with survival. This would likely spread to the species as well. Sort of like the biological incentive not to murder--except the biological incentives are apparently different in Zalanthan races, because people murder a dying species all the time.

[RogueGunslinger]

We're definitely losing our drive to reproduce, however that has less to do with overpopulation(which isn't something I think is happening) and more to do with wealth, income, and standards of living.

[Jeax]

I think another problem here is that we view, in our minds, the idea that a woman should be barefoot and pregnant at home with the kids as "sexist". Nothing in Zalanthas would say that this is sexist--if it's a reality of the species, since, you know, women are the only gender that can have new babies pop out of them...it would just be a fact of life to say that a woman's place is at home. It doesn't mean she's inferior. But, what a reaction you would get IRL for saying that.

That being said, you see almost 0 women IG portray this sort of lifestyle, mostly because nobody wants to RP a poor homemaker, I'd guess. Realistically speaking, though, if women acted as they do in Zalanthas, the races would just go extinct.

[Talia]

I think another problem here is that we view, in our minds, the idea that a woman should be barefoot and pregnant at home with the kids as "sexist". Nothing in Zalanthas would say that this is sexist--if it's a reality of the species, since, you know, women are the only gender that can have new babies pop out of them...it would just be a fact of life to say that a woman's place is at home. It doesn't mean she's inferior. But, what a reaction you would get IRL for saying that.

That being said, you see almost 0 women IG portray this sort of lifestyle, mostly because nobody wants to RP a poor homemaker, I'd guess. Realistically speaking, though, if women acted as they do in Zalanthas, the races would just go extinct.

[Jeax]

I think another problem here is that we view, in our minds, the idea that a woman should be barefoot and pregnant at home with the kids as "sexist". Nothing in Zalanthas would say that this is sexist--if it's a reality of the species, since, you know, women are the only gender that can have new babies pop out of them...it would just be a fact of life to say that a woman's place is at home. It doesn't mean she's inferior. But, what a reaction you would get IRL for saying that.

That being said, you see almost 0 women IG portray this sort of lifestyle, mostly because nobody wants to RP a poor homemaker, I'd guess. Realistically speaking, though, if women acted as they do in Zalanthas, the races would just go extinct.

I am confused what this means your stance is   Do you hate me now because I am a misogynistic pig-man?

Edit: Also, can I please play a person that can read/write that does nothing but publish existentialist papers? (lol) That sounds silly, but actually--having done a decent bit of reading into the realm of existentialism and theology, it would be quite interesting to try to philosophize within a world that is not my own. That would get pretty interesting, much like the guy that runs the economy system for EVE, but more thought-provoking. Of course, I'm not sure who my target audience would be, since Zalanthans really give no value to reason as a Greek culture would. Probably also means such a person would not really exist. So I guess there goes my idea.

[Barzalene]

I think for me, the hardest thing to divorce myself from is the western belief in merit. That you work hard and good things result. As a leader I favor the minions who get the job done. As a minion I want to be effective, and be praised for it.

[Talia]

I think for me, the hardest thing to divorce myself from is the western belief in merit. That you work hard and good things result. As a leader I favor the minions who get the job done. As a minion I want to be effective, and be praised for it.

This is a really great insight. Zalanthas is so intensely not a meritocracy, and it's really difficult for most players to adjust to that.

Do you hate me now because I am a misogynistic pig-man?

No.

[wizturbo]

The whole mate and jealousy thing isn't a western thing, it's a HUMAN thing.   Humans of most cultures throughout history pair up into couples.  Whether or not they stay together for life is really culturally dependent.  

And humans are also envious and jealous of all kinds of things, sex, money, ability, etc.  It's perfectly IC from a Zalanthian perspective to be jealous if someone is banging the same person as you, if your character is a naturally jealous person.  Being a jealous person is not universally the norm though.  It's a more uncommon trait in Zalanthas.  The saying "I caught her sleeping with another man" would not be viewed as some kind of kind of deviant act or accusation.  It might piss your PC off, but no one else would care at all or think it was somehow wrong.

[Barzalene]

The whole mate and jealousy thing isn't a western thing, it's a HUMAN thing.   Humans of most cultures throughout history pair up into couples.  Whether or not they stay together for life is really culturally dependent.  

And humans are also envious and jealous of all kinds of things, sex, money, ability, etc.  It's perfectly IC from a Zalanthian perspective to be jealous if someone is banging the same person as you, if your character is a naturally jealous person.  Being a jealous person though is not universally the norm though.  It's a more uncommon trait in Zalanthas.  The saying "I caught her sleeping with another man" would not be viewed as some kind of kind of deviant act or accusation.  It might piss your PC off, but no one else would care at all or think it was somehow wrong.

I agree. Even in a polygamist relationship this would apply.

[Down Under]

I'm confused how Zalanthas isn't a meritocracy. It seems most tribes are ruled in this fashion. In the cities if you aren't productive you aren't getting anywhere fast.

[Jihelu]

I'm confused how Zalanthas isn't a meritocracy. It seems most tribes are ruled in this fashion. In the cities if you aren't productive you aren't getting anywhere fast.

Wouldn't meritocracy not use 'noble birth=better than everyone' and only do strictly 'only people that can function good = better than everyone'

[BadSkeelz]

Some parts/organizations of Zalanthas are more meritocratic than others. Some organizations can vary themselves.

The militia might have a Templar who promotes soldiers based their abilities. Or based on how much they suck up. Or how hot they are. Or by rolling the dice. It's all up to the whim of the leader, ultimately.

Nobles are also always always better than commoners. Not just socially ranked, but intrinsically believed to be better.

[Patuk]

I'm confused how Zalanthas isn't a meritocracy. It seems most tribes are ruled in this fashion. In the cities if you aren't productive you aren't getting anywhere fast.

Wouldn't meritocracy not use 'noble birth=better than everyone' and only do strictly 'only people that can function good = better than everyone'

You, sir, are correct. A commoner and a templar in training may both attend the Tor academy, but only one of the two can ever become a general.

And tribes usually lack a real government, which is perfectly historically reasonable.

[Jeax]

The whole mate and jealousy thing isn't a western thing, it's a HUMAN thing.   Humans of most cultures throughout history pair up into couples.  Whether or not they stay together for life is really culturally dependent.  

And humans are also envious and jealous of all kinds of things, sex, money, ability, etc.  It's perfectly IC from a Zalanthian perspective to be jealous if someone is banging the same person as you, if your character is a naturally jealous person.  Being a jealous person is not universally the norm though.  It's a more uncommon trait in Zalanthas.  The saying "I caught her sleeping with another man" would not be viewed as some kind of kind of deviant act or accusation.  It might piss your PC off, but no one else would care at all or think it was somehow wrong.

This is a good observation, and it looks correct at first. However, this is operating off of a few different presuppositions. To point out a couple important ones:
1. You are presupposing that envy is part of human nature (I would say that it is not; instead that it is a universal trait)
2. You are presupposing that Zalanthan humans have the same nature as us.

What creates envy within humans? Kierkegaard would say that it is the "despair to be one's self" and Nietzsche would point to psychological causes. Kierkegaard's stance requires a belief in the soul/spirit, and Nietzsche's tries to stay purely metaphysical.

So, our nature is a product of: God/gods and environment/ancestry/evolution

This being said, Zalanthas has completely different of each of those things. Would it not be reasonable, then, that Zalanthan humans do not share our nature?

In this way, to read the documentation's scope of this topic (that polygamy is common and expected, commoners don't marry, etc) I think it would also fit, since not specifically mentioned, that there is no cause to be jealous in Zalanthas because of these things, because it is not necessarily a part of a Zalanthan human's nature to do so.

To this effect, we would have to have a comment from an Administrator or the documentation to say that a Zalanthan human is the same as an Earth human in every regard in such matters.

*waits for Talia to  his post*

[RogueGunslinger]

Staff have already said as much multiple times that humans in Zalanthas are = to humans in real life. Usually in response to questions about them being more hardy/stronger or able to heal from injuries.

Even if that wasn't the case it'd be really easy to see why jealousy and envy would be common part of mating. They are both present without regards to sex, why wouldn't they be there with regard to it? Just because it's normal to have multiple lovers doesn't mean it's normal to not feel envious when you see someone kissing your other lover. Much in the same why you might feel irritated that someone keeps taking your favorite sparring sword from the rack before you can get to it. Or that tinge of anger you might feel when the person who's borrowing your beetle spurs it a bit too hard too often.

Why would sex and relationships suddenly be immune to this sort of jealousy?

[Jeax]

Why would sex and relationships suddenly be immune to this sort of jealousy?

Because of different human natures.

[RogueGunslinger]

What part of the Zalanthan culture would make that so?

[Beethoven]

Sure, I didn't mean obese. I just meant the word "rubenesque" and "fat" (as a noun) popping up more in female mdescs. You go, ladies.

About the monogamy thing, being in monogamous relationships all my life, I used to have a hard time understanding the docs on monogamy and polygamy in Zalanthas. Then I entered a long-term, more "open" (although we don't really use that word) relationship. We haven't slept around yet or anything, but it's on the table. We joke about it and it's something that's definitely an option. It doesn't even really seem like a "thing" anymore. We know that jealousy will probably be something that crops up when or if we decide to do stuff with other people, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there, and we'll talk about it. We truly love each other and don't want to lock down each other's bodies.

I'm not saying that Zalanthans would necessarily all be so loving and open with one another as my partner and I are, but being in this kind of relationship, I definitely can understand a culture where it's just...not a big deal. I'm sure jealousy is still a thing in Zalanthan polygamous relationships, and it can still sneak up on people when they don't even think it's going to. Maybe it strikes suddenly, even after there's been a lot of fooling around. Maybe they were fine with it if they didn't have to see it. Maybe it's not the sex that bothers them, but it hurts to find out that their lover has been buying one of their supposedly insignificant others expensive gifts. There are lots of possibilities. We don't have to pretend that jealousy doesn't exist on Zalanthas just because polygamy is common. My two cents anyway.

[Barzalene]

Jealousy doesn't preclude polygamy. Both things can occur at once.

[KankWhisperer]

I think people are throwing around "modern westernized cultural values" as if that means anything. In the United States you have anarchists, communists and fascists. You have deeply religious people, agnostics, and athiests. Etc, and so on. Racism is definitely still a thing and for subtler differences than exist on Armageddon.

My main problem with the "Armageddon cultural values" is that some staff waved their hand and said -everyone- isn't sexist and -everyone- is promiscuous and so on across all the cultures basically. That just seems more unrealistic than magick.

[wizturbo]

Because of different human natures.

Zalanthian humans are not radically different in psychology than real life.   Nothing I've read or seen ever suggests that Zalanthian humans don't experience jealousy, envy, or any other emotion that humans on Earth experience.

The only reason for the staff posting about polygamy/monogamy is to say that "slut shaming" in Zalanthas does not exist for men or women alike.  There is no social convention against having multiple sexual partners.  That doesn't limit any range of emotion that comes with that interaction though.  

My main problem with the "Armageddon cultural values" is that some staff waved their hand and said -everyone- isn't sexist and -everyone- is promiscuous and so on across all the cultures basically. That just seems more unrealistic than magick.

I think that playing a PC that is sexist or hates promiscuous people could be acceptable role-play, as an individual whose an exception to the norm, as long as they understand that such prejudice is abnormal and isn't likely to get much if any support from their peers.  I don't really see what value there is in playing a sexist, or someone who hates promiscuous people though.  I can't really fathom a character concept where this would be awesome and fun.  You might as well hate people who like the color blue, or look down upon people who wear leather instead of chitin armor...pretty arbitrary and uninspired for a world where there's so much you can hate freely.  Magickers, elves, breeds, northerners, southerns, red stormers, tribals, Kuraci's, Kadian's, nobles, templars...you name it, you can hate it, and have some pretty great reasons for it too. 

[KankWhisperer]

 Magickers, elves, breeds, northerners, southerns, red stormers, tribals, Kuraci's, Kadian's, nobles, templars...you name it, you can hate it, and have some pretty great reasons for it too.

Except those other two things, because reasons that are totally not based on modern feelings of game staff at one point.

I just don't like the whole every culture on Zalanthas universally believes -this-, whatever -this- is.

[Jeax]

I think that playing a PC that is sexist or hates promiscuous people could be acceptable role-play, as an individual whose an exception to the norm, as long as they understand that such prejudice is abnormal and isn't likely to get much if any support from their peers.  I don't really see what value there is in playing a sexist, or someone who hates promiscuous people though.  I can't really fathom a character concept where this would be awesome and fun.  You might as well hate people who like the color blue, or look down upon people who wear leather instead of chitin armor...pretty arbitrary and uninspired.  /shrug

This is the only reasonable response I see to my raised argument. I also agree with the assertion about documentation, and have, I was just raising an important point about that thought.

I, however, can see plenty of value in playing a sexist or something, if that's what you want to do. People play a racist all the time, but of course that's built into the documentation. I think that's part of the freedom...IRL if you want to be a racist serial killer rapist, you can do that. You may even find beauty in it. But...the surrounding world is going to kill you. So it is in Armageddon. But, this has nothing to do with cultural presuppositions within the game world unfortunately, so we should venture back on topic I suppose.

[wizturbo]

I think we all have to cut the staff a little slack too, they aren't philosophers or lawyers by trade who are excited about the prospect of writing a 50 page Supreme Court opinion to fully explain the intricacies of Zalanthian sexuality.    

[Patuk]

Nobody cares about the why. That your stated reason of disliking the no sexism policy is that maybe some staffer wanted to make a point only makes you come across as whiny. Even if whomever added the no sexism clause did so because they are some evil lesbian misandrenist feminist who wanted to ruin everything for everyone, allowing no sexism in-game holds merit.

[Is Friday]

I'm glad for the "no sexism" rule. It makes the game more playable for both male and female players. Who cares about the "logic" of it.

[Down Under]

I'm glad for the "no sexism" rule. It makes the game more playable for both male and female players. Who cares about the "logic" of it.

Agreed 100%.

[Barsook]

I'm glad for the "no sexism" rule. It makes the game more playable for both male and female players. Who cares about the "logic" of it.

Agreed 100%.

[CodeMaster]

oblig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3Qn1uHlRIY

[TheWanderer]

Rounding back to relationships, I'd prefer to see more envy/jealousy.

Sexism doesn't exist in Zalanthas, yes. That doesn't mean there can't be a domineering alpha in the relationship, gender having no bearing on which would claim the role.

Secondly (I guess?), if I could change one thing about the docs, it'd be the way it sort of alienates you (more due to the player's interpretation of the select paragraph) for roleplaying a character that craves some sort of intimacy. We're supposed to be living in this harsh, cutthroat environment, but we suddenly strip ourselves nude (well, not the chitin-shelled warriors,huehueheuheuheheheh) with every attractive lay in sight.

Wanting your boo to appreciate you and solely you isn't necessarily a western value. It's like, you know, a cookie with free will. If my cookie wants to get gnawed on for a night with some stranger, that's my cookie's choice. Doesn't mean I like you eating my cookie. It gets me kinda pissed, actually. That's -my- cookie. We had some good times, and maybe I don't like to share. Maybe I like to think my cookie and I are satisfied with just each other's company. Maybe it hurts when my cookie wants more than just me.

[Molten Heart]

Some people don't like to share. I don't see how that'd be different in Zalanthas when dealing with intimate relationships.

[whitt]

My bet is most folks don't stick around in the same place for many "modern" monogamous relationships to exist.

[racurtne]

My bet is most folks don't stick around in the same place for many "modern" monogamous relationships to exist.

If you are a city-dweller, you have likely never left the walls. It's dangerous out there. (This is the baseline, obviously PCs are crazy.)

[Bast]

I have always loved arm because as someone who is bi-sexual IRL its been refreshing to play a game where your allowed to be however you want to be and I also thinks that straight sometimes. Not everyone has to treat sex like a hand shake and their is nothing wrong if you do. I do DISLIKE it when someone tries to icly pressure you into sex with them with the implied pressure that if your not having sex with them your a poor roll-player for not 'living up to the norm' . Just because you can be polyamorous doesn't mean you have to be..just because you can be gay doesn't mean you can't be straight. Sexual preference is something your born with not something cultural ingrained in you. Unless we are saying people -choose- to be Gay? Which is something I for one am happy we are getting past as a species.

One thing that does humor though about the Western culture thing is the alarming number of times I have gotten weird ic reactions for breast feeding in game. That is very much an American Taboo. My cousin is half Persian her husband is from Iran but she was raised State side. Recently they went to visit his family with their new baby....she had total culture shock...apparently breast feeding is the Persian version of jingling car keys and pacifiers. Every time Madison so much as made a peep one of Amir's sisters or his mother would encourage her to nurse. This encouragement I am told sometimes took the form of pointed looks and raised eyebrows in disapproval.  This really threw her off as we are talking about a country where woman have to keep their heads covered in public but apparently breast feeding is not only accepted but in no way something a woman should be nervous or ashamed of, in fact its expected.  I just don't think anyone in arm would bat an eyelash at mother breast feeding a kid. Its not like there is baby food and the longer you keep them on the tit the more coin you save on bread.

[Revenant]

So yes, is the thread bait-ish? Maybe it could be under the right terms, but I'm putting my trust in the maturity of the playerbase. Productive? Seems to be so far. I'll gladly risk causing some flaming if this can somehow help us all get on the same page eventually. Lot of good posts so far, thanks all.

[Barzalene]

My interpretation has always been that your PC can be as straight/gay/bi/asexual as they want to be and as monogamous, polygamous, hedonistic or abstinate as they choose.

[Is Friday]

I have always loved arm because as someone who is bi-sexual IRL its been refreshing to play a game where your allowed to be however you want to be and I also thinks that straight sometimes. Not everyone has to treat sex like a hand shake and their is nothing wrong if you do. I do DISLIKE it when someone tries to icly pressure you into sex with them with the implied pressure that if your not having sex with them your a poor roll-player for not 'living up to the norm' . Just because you can be polyamorous doesn't mean you have to be..just because you can be gay doesn't mean you can't be straight. Sexual preference is something your born with not something cultural ingrained in you. Unless we are saying people -choose- to be Gay? Which is something I for one am happy we are getting past as a species.

One thing that does humor though about the Western culture thing is the alarming number of times I have gotten weird ic reactions for breast feeding in game. That is very much an American Taboo. My cousin is half Persian her husband is from Iran but she was raised State side. Recently they went to visit his family with their new baby....she had total culture shock...apparently breast feeding is the Persian version of jingling car keys and pacifiers. Every time Madison so much as made a peep one of Amir's sisters or his mother would encourage her to nurse. This encouragement I am told sometimes took the form of pointed looks and raised eyebrows in disapproval.  This really threw her off as we are talking about a country where woman have to keep their heads covered in public but apparently breast feeding is not only accepted but in no way something a woman should be nervous or ashamed of, in fact its expected.  I just don't think anyone in arm would bat an eyelash at mother breast feeding a kid. Its not like there is baby food and the longer you keep them on the tit the more coin you save on bread.

Funny that you mention breatfeeding and sexuality in the same post in regards to Iran. It's a capital offense in Iran to be gay. America is behind most countries about breastfeeding -- probably for the same reason we still encourage perfectly healthy mothers to induce/cesarean/give birth on your back in the most uncomfortable manner possible.

p.s. babby rp is something that drives me nuts no matter what the subject is. Swaddling, breastfeeding, cooing, diaper changing, etc. I'm equally judgmental of you as a person if you are performing babby rp no matter the subject.

[Lizzie]

p.s. babby rp is something that drives me nuts no matter what the subject is. Swaddling, breastfeeding, cooing, diaper changing, etc. I'm equally judgmental of you as a person if you are performing babby rp no matter the subject.

100% agreed.

[valeria]

Since having babies is a big part of most people's lives, I'm not really sure why it's more odd or bad for people to rp the having and keeping of children, compared to any other topic that people rp.

[Desertman]

Fundamentally the only reason the rules around "being whatever you want to be sexually" exist in the game is because it would create an OOC'ly unfriendly OOC environment for certain groups of people if it were otherwise. Even if that environment were only in their own minds.

It's an IC concept that is forced for OOC considerations of OOC feelings. It doesn't have to make IC sense, and sometimes it won't, because the rule around that roleplay only exists for OOC reasons to begin with. If sometimes it feels like the IC world doesn't exactly follow along, it is because the rule isn't there for any IC reason. Sometimes there will be conflicts and contradictions.

IC'ly there are several instances of not being overly sexual with anyone and everyone and social stigmas associated with doing exactly that in the documentation.

Tuluki nobles can't have sex with any commoners for example. Why? To preserve their bloodlines. It is beneath them to bed commoners. Why? Because Zalanthans understand the concept of "my bloodlines" vs "their bloodlines".

You don't want to taint your bloodlines, so, you don't bang everything in sight because it is beneath you. It is something only commoners do because you are better than them. Thus, only lower class lower individuals who "aren't as good as you", act in that way.

Underlying connotation? Being a random slut is for trashy commoners. (At least in Tuluk.)

Highborn individuals and merchant House family members can arrange marriages and often times stipulations in those contracts dictate the flow and allocation of any children.

Why? Because Zalanthans understand and value the concept, at least in some castes, of valuing their individual bloodlines.


The only reason we don't like banging out anything and everything and everyone we see in real life is because we are chemically wired, just like most other creatures, to want to preserve our own bloodlines.

There is a reason alpha male lions kill the cubs of other male lions and will not let his girl's breed with other males. It's because he is wired to protect and further his own bloodline.

It's the same reason human males and females get jealous and will fight over their partners cheating on them with someone else. Sure, there is the emotional aspect associated, but really, it comes down to being naturally chemically wired to want to preserve your own bloodlines and promote the singular benefits of your individual offspring. One might argue that those emotional aspects are in large driven by the brute nature-driven way we are naturally wired. (I understand not everyone fits this category. I just mean in general for most people.)

A lot of my characters do not like the idea of their "mates" banging other people. (On the extremely rare occasion I even involve myself in such roleplay.)

Why? Because they are naturally wired to want to promote their own offspring. Why? Because that makes perfect sense to me. I don't see any reason why any Zalanthan in game would WANT to invest their extremely limited and valuable time and resources into raising the offspring of someone else. It IC'ly makes no sense at all.

I am absolutely FINE with female characters getting extremely jealous and angry over "their men" banging other women. Why? Because it makes an extreme amount of IC sense for them to do so. If "their men" go out and bang other women/men, they might develop an emotional attachment. They might "lose their man" to this other woman. Then, who is going to help her raise his children? She is going to have to raise his children alone which is much harder to do than doing it with his help. It is just a matter of her being naturally wired to best allocate and utilize her very limited resources for raising her offspring.

It makes all of the IC sense in the Known for men and women alike to get extremely jealous and angry over their chosen sexual partners banging lots of other people and them potentially losing them along the way to other partners.

It is just a matter of basic economics and resources if nothing else.

The fact we have any rules against putting in social stigma around it at all is an OOC consideration for OOC feelings.

My characters will continue to play it how I best feel it makes sense, because it makes sense to me. I would have to suspend basic common sense in order to do it any other way. With that being said, I am absolutely fine with everyone else playing their characters how they want.

Mostly, I see most people playing wanting to be monogamous with their partners...so I know I'm not alone. I'm probably the norm based on what I have seen. People just feel more comfortable going that route, because most people are naturally wired to go exactly that route anyways. It's what feels right.

As for being gay and bisexual and what not in game....be whatever you want to be. My characters are straight because I am straight and I have no desire to roleplay being anything but straight.

If my character is "icked" out by the thought of your character banging another dude in the butthole...it is because he just doesn't like the idea of banging dudes himself and doesn't understand why you would want to. He doesn't hate you for it. He simply thinks it is gross because of things like "hairy man butthole", that doesn't appeal to him in any way. He might laugh at you/with you, but he won't hate you. In general, I don't think I have ever encountered this beyond other guys hitting on my PC and them laughingly telling them they are barking up the wrong tree.

[hopeandsorrow]

I like Dman's post.
I always found the "polyamory" of Zalanthas a kind of forced IC concept that makes no sense behind considerations for a popular OOC kink.
Which hell, if that's what you like that's what you like.

Although I don't think monogamy or loyalty should be all that rare either, or bad role play.  In fact those couple's offspring are twice as likely to succeed since daddy ain't trying to bang every breed in town and mommy isn't strap with more children from different fathers.

[Nyr]

So yes, is the thread bait-ish? Maybe it could be under the right terms

It depends on who or what spawned the thread.  In this case, it was you.  The "what" is something you are trying to skate around and get other people to say or name so that you can safely say you didn't bring it up.  Players are perceptive enough to identify that.  You say you've attempted to bring this up before through appropriate channels and got told that whatever it was "wasn't a concern".  You're doing your very best to say something without saying anything that would go against the forum rules.  You are being disingenuous here.

I'd recommend to any players that have issues with what someone else is doing in the game:

We review all player complaints that come in with an eye to fairness (at least in an OOC sense, because there are IC rules about fairness), to the rules of the game, and to the spirit of the game as we see it.  However, if it is important enough to you to bring it to staff's attention, then you should respect the time of staff enough to express that to staff in a clear and concise manner.  Failure to do so may result in the request being declined--and not because it "isn't a concern".  We'll just ask you to be more concise, clear, or to rephrase/organize your thoughts.

I appreciate the other players here who have kept this cordial and helpful and generally about how to do things related to roleplay.  However, given that this was started for reasons such as the ones above, I'm afraid this thread will be locked.  Thanks everyone.