The Sneaky Noble?

[Semper]

You mean this?

http://old.armageddon.org/general/noble.html

Just replace www with old when navigating around.

Yeah! [But how do you access these websites from the new website?] [Also, the individual links don't work (probably broken now).] It would be great if we could transfer these into the new website and clean it up so it is more intuitive for players to find.

Some parts that I found helpful, though not perfectly applicable to PC Nobles (since they can't actually adjust city-wide taxes):
"Nobles have two types of power: economic and political, which are often intertwined. Noble houses can and often do decide policy matters through the means of the Senate, and also exert power in the form of affecting popular opinion, which they traditionally do through sponsoring competitions, festivals, arena matches, etc. Politics is a game of subtle influences - while the merchant houses have little say in the Senate, they do have influence over prices, both citywide as well as at the individual level. At the same time, the Senate has control over the tax rates -- so an impolitic Kadian might find their house confronted with a sudden silk tax."

The other pages on the site are great resources to look into for anyone interested in Allanaki culture.

[also: http://old.armageddon.org/general/social_mores.html ]

[Lizzie]

You mean this?

http://old.armageddon.org/general/noble.html

Just replace www with old when navigating around.

Yeah! But how do you access these websites from the new website?

Many of them were never ported to the new site, so you have to go to the old. And some of the old site pages are no longer linked to the old main site page, so you have to either do a search, or know the exact URL you're looking for.

On topic: I just want to reiterate that - if the noble doesn't tell you /why/ he's being sneaky, you really don't know why. It could just be that the character thinks it's fun. Also, what I recall reading in someone else's post that should be reiterated: the sneak skill isn't exclusively for going unnoticed. If you type sneak, from walking, you get the echo that specifies that you have just slowed down your movements and are now more careful. If you're traversing a dangerous area - you might want to slow down and be more careful than usual. If you're not a very comfortable rider, you might want your mount to be slower and more careful than usual when you're riding your templar's horse from the Pyramid to the Sanctuary. If it's late at night and there's only one moon out and all you have is a glow crystal strapped to your ankle, you might want to slow down and move more carefully, so as not to trip over a beggar or a rat.

There are plenty of IC reasons to use sneak, that don't necessarily equate with "trying to be sneaky." On the other hand, even if a noble IS trying to be sneaky, it could be that he's trying to avoid notice of a templar that he has to pass on his way - maybe that templar has been trying to meet with him about some unpleasant business. And if he's not very good at sneaking, he might be trying to get better, or his character might think he's being incredibly clever and has no idea that he's failing.

In fact - it's very possible that if a noble is using the sneak skill, and failing all the time, that he doesn't even -have- the sneak skill on his skill list - and his player is making the character stand out on purpose for some IC reason (such as an eccentricity).

[Delusion]

You mean this?

http://old.armageddon.org/general/noble.html

Just replace www with old when navigating around.

Also, the individual links don't work (probably broken now).

Need to replace www with old, that's all.

[Armaddict]

Of particular note:
For those noble PCs who haven't opted for any skill bumps, and have (as is the case in most cases) a mundane Guild and Sub or Ext - and assuming that they aren't one of the few who take to the sands and start killing scrabs/raptors/tembos - how would they go about using/raising their starting level skills. How would they portray that they aren't newbies (despite not having mastered their skill sets). How would they come across while using a skill that they probably should not use or should not have to use (i.e. get someone else to do it for them), just because they need to branch it to get the next skill? How should the noble PC behave when s/he wants to spar with you, and he's supposed to be a Warlord or a Commander of the XYZ Unit - but his/her skills are too low to begin with? How should observers behave/react in such situations?

The reason why the old documentation on playing a Noble character would help is because it answers all these questions pretty much. In those documents, the role of a noble is portrayed as a social role. As a leader, you were to rely on your minions to do your dirty work, or gather information, or entertain your guests, etc. In this way, a good noble could really brighten up and engage all kinds of players. One good noble could probably keep a few PCs busy, but having several nobles around would generate all kinds of plots if they ended up using the same group of social PCs. A great post to read is Vanth's role play guide to playing a Noble Character. Not once (I think?) does she ever refer to a noble as someone who is shaping their coded skills up, because coded skills were not necessary to play one.

I had a strong reaction to some of the posts on this thread because it seemed the idea of a noble character that I had from the past was being forgotten. An Allanaki noble sneaking around and doing mundane things which a servant should have been doing for them defeats the purpose of having minions. If the Noble can handle mundane things on their own, the value of a minion diminishes. And I realize sometimes good minions are very lacking, and so this is probably why some slack was given in these regards, but if every new player considers this the new norm, then what difference is there between a noble and a commoner PC besides greater social standing?

[underlined for emphasis since this is my main concern]

From the past.  I have the opposite experience, because most of that old documentation is far more strictly entwined with play now than it was before, to the point that this thread even -exists- makes it different than how it was.  One of my first PC's was the first PC crimson wyvern.  He trained with Nikita Borsail, or rather...was -taught- by Nikita Borsail, on several occasions.  My first good warrior trained with Marius Tor, who was a rather deadly fighter in his own right.  Iakovitzes Tor was famous for leading his soldiers from the front and being in harm's way.  My first noble, also a Tor, emphasized his preparation, and in his background, was -stationed- outside of the city with Scorpions, engaged in combat for a good portion of his early career, and only pulled back to the city to engage in politics when he'd proven he had a mind for command.  Zelyne Borsail, originally a Tor, was not nearly so helpless as people assumed when she went north.  I was there and assisted as a banished-turned-enslaved former soldier, Davros, when there was an assassination attempt on her.  The first attempt I survived, and fought them off alongside her.  The second, I died.  There was a Fale whose name I've forgotten who picked locks.  He'd show up in your apartment, when he wanted to meet with you.  So on and so forth.  This is not to say every noble needs to be skilling up.  This is to say that before, there was room for nobility to do things their own way, and not have people looking at them the way this thread does, which basically seems to insinuate that there is no excuse, there is no variance, and a noble's hobbies must not be something that someone else could do, which is, as I said in my previous post, 'pushing things too far'.


From that old documentation, just about the only thing I don't see followed more closely now more than ever (and thus, made subject to scrutiny such as this) is the piece about templars NEEDING nobility.   Nowadays, a templar is free to completely ignore the nobles as much as they wish, because the playerbase is used to the templarate and does not avoid them.  With changes to staff and game policy, this has only gotten easier.  I'm sorry, but all that documentation was written before noble-house plots consisted of 'that other noble called me a bad name, time for vengeance'.  The plots were staff run or staff supported, and -real-.  Noble plots today are rather...piddling, due to the very nature of how they come about and what they entail (this is not a bash on anyone.  Just a simple reference to when noble plots were, at one point, epic-type plots that resulted in large clan and city wide RPTs, battles, magickal events, so on and so forth).  Templars, at least, can get you involved in more things and you have some real modicum of power.   Herein lies a major difference, between then and now...back then I bit, scraped, and clawed my way into service of noble houses.  They were always involved in cool things.  The staff running those clans were not just the advisors and administrators of today, they were...like Zalanthan dungeonmasters.  They generally had -something- going on that made an overarching, larger-than-personal plot for everyone to engage in, in addition to the noble's personal goals, which often vied noble against noble within the same House, even.  Borsail actually had and made PC slaves...people wanted their good graces.  Oash actually had magickal research and magickal plots for its mages.  Tor was building forts, expanding the empire, defending the empire, and truly set on excellence of combat.  Fale has...well...I actually think Fale is one of the main houses that has improved.  Before, everyone just wanted them for comedic relief, which always bugged me.  There used to be entire political struggles between noble and templar alike for who had the strongest grasp on the criminal underworld and its resources.  Templars fought each other for the backing of nobles, because templars needed -funding-.

Anyway, my point is...you pointed at old documentation that even then, had blatant exceptions made, as far as being a 'skill based' noble.  Now, it's even harder, because those minions you're supposed to be providing for?  They don't scrape, claw, and bite their way into your House the way they used to, because it has degraded.  People don't do that for free food and water.  They did it then because it meant involvement in things that are much harder to get rolling, at this point.  All the virtual power in the game doesn't make the role more fun, and exercising power without active mediums (staff run plots and affects, and IC non-monetary currency individualized to each house) really has become a very real struggle.  This isn't a call for change, or for staff run plots to return, but rather...an insight into how a non-skill-based role can transform into a skill-based one.  The ability to exercise their will however they can in the absence of truly-motivated-minions, and boredom.  The days of yore, even with easier access to minions, was more forgiving of that from my vantage point.

TL;DR:  Nobles have a bit less of a leg up than they used to, and I think the skill-based noble mindset of today (still rare enough to be called an exception, I think) is based on the desire to try and make things happen with what they have, so...we should kinda throw them a bone, imo.

[MeTekillot]

Templars still need funding, dude, they just don't need nobles for it anymore. You see how much you catch for that pair of braies in the Bazaar? Don't even need to leave the city for the silk, they sell it in a shop. Inifinite $$$ sonnnnnn

[Semper]

The Allanak that you mention was awesome, but also very different from Allanak in the game's current perspective, and I think the staff are trying to fix some of the issues that are inherent by eventually giving skill bumps to nobles based on merit, rather than having to grind your skills. This is to provide an enjoyable role without trampling on the documentation in the process. Nobles are meant to be out there driving plots, not grinding out their skills alone in a corner of the Nobility Quarter.

However, the larger question to consider is the role of a Noble in the current form of Armageddon. It's my opinion (and also of Armaddict's opinion it seems) that the power that a Noble can wield in the game has been been cut dramatically, and if our expectation is the same as before but does not reflect what is real, then obviously there would be problems. I think this thread is a sign of a greater problem that still has not been fully addressed.

Still, I could be wrong, and over-exaggerating a minor issue...  

[MeTekillot]

Well, I mean, if there aren't any active indie merchants around who have paid off all the assassins, you can pay off an assassin to kill some dudes for you, as a noble? Or flex your virtual power at a Templar and hope he plays along. The 'money' aspect of being a noble is absolutely peanuts in comparison to how much money everyone else can make.

Maybe we should put a cap on how many salt crystals Globulluk buys in a week and make it so you can't sell that one root from that one cave for 1 large a pop?

[FantasyWriter]

Make all noble robes null sneak/hide. Same goes for robe, hat, or other outer garments with bright/foppish/stylish/etc in the description.

[HavokBlue]

The social power a noble wields according to documentation is still as big, if not bigger in some situations, than ever.

The ability to have a hard, tangible effect in game on other PCs without the assistance of other PCs, or staff, is nearly zero. Which is another reason I won't begrudge a noble who sneaks sometimes, since the only other coded skill he probably exercises is listen, and contact.

[Bast]

I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.

[Down Under]

I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.

Why?

Nobles' power rests far beyond simple skills.

[Barzalene]

I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.

Why?

Nobles' power rests far beyond simple skills.

For fun!

[valeria]

Between guilds,  subguilds, and extended subguilds, I don't really see how you would have a hard time accurately representing your noble's skills in the existing system.

[bcw81]

Between guilds,  subguilds, and extended subguilds, I don't really see how you would have a hard time accurately representing your noble's skills in the existing system.

It's not the fact of getting the skills, it's getting them skilled enough to be anywhere useful really. Sure, you can drop all your skill bumps into a few skills, but it's not the same.

[Bast]

I kinda wish when you rolled up a noble you had a set of skills to choose from based on what you would have been taught..and branch out like normal pcs. Maybe get bumps to the stuff your house would want you good at with some room for personal flavor.

Why?

Nobles' power rests far beyond simple skills.

For fun!

Oh no I agree with you completely Down Under I just think Nobles should be pooling from a different skill set...and in my humble opinion..which I know is just my opinion..there are just some skills nobles have no business with. 

[Zoan]

My noble was a young brat who lived in a really big house. Also, I'd like to point out that a lot of adults never really grow up, their bodies do. My nooble snuck about but only at home.

I read a lot of fiction literature and in plenty of it speaking at a 'young lordling' POV it's practically a trope that they get into mischief skull-duggering about and infuriating the scullery-maids with their shenanigans. There's lots of reasons why a noble bratling would find the cause and the means to develop a penchant and skillset for sneaking and misdirection.