The Sneaky Noble?

[LauraMars]

Look, if you have one noble that's notably sneaking about and being really silly and not behaving like a noble, trust me, the other nobles have noticed too and are making fun of him to his face and behind his back 9 hours a day 11 days a week and he's getting all kinds of laughed at and probably won't advance very far in his house and is an embarrassment to his relatives and they'll probably try to marry him off to a lesser house if he gets really stupid about it.  That goes for all other non-noble behavior too (like not playing politics correctly, ignoring proper bribing etiquette, not wearing silk, etc)

So what I'm saying is these things usually work out in game.

[Saellyn]

What exactly isn't noble-like about not making a lot of noise when you walk and basically sneaking up on people?

[Is Friday]

I feel like the true/false coded limitations of DIKU convinces people that sneaking thieves are skulking about like 1940s silent film burglars when they're caught on a scan.

[Saellyn]

As opposed to just standing there and not being noticed because they're not making any noise. That creeping secret-agent thing is not how people sneak around unless they're actually doing secret-agent stuff. Sometimes.

[Erythil]

I played a sneaky noble 

But she wore leather and a mask when she did it

IT WAS A HOBBY

[racurtne]

City-sneak/hide in crowded places and streets should most likely be looked upon as someone sticking close to a group or otherwise blending in in a way so that they are not (hopefully) noticed. If noticed, it should probably (depending on circumstances) be treated as they are somehow sticking out in the crowd. If you notice them doing this, you might still jump to the conclusion that they are up to no good, though, because they are still actively trying to avoid detection and FAILING. They look suspicious, one way or the other.

If it's a noble, and you recognize them, you might want to keep quiet anyway for fear of making them upset. Nobles sneaking around in silks and other flashy gear is silly, though, unless they are in place filled with nobles.

[CodeMaster]

As opposed to just standing there and not being noticed because they're not making any noise. That creeping secret-agent thing is not how people sneak around unless they're actually doing secret-agent stuff. Sometimes.

That's a great distinction to make.  Anecdotally, I once read an undercover cop's description of how he "shadows" someone: sticks to the other side of the street and modest wardrobe changes as time passes (removing/putting on a baseball cap, slinging his jacket over his shoulder, etc.)

I'm hesitant to go on, because this thread feels like it's hitting some nerves (rest assured I love you all)...

But one can't blame many players for making the assumption that sneak and hide are correlated with slipknifery and thievery, because it tends to be precisely those guilds (and subguilds) that get kitted out with sneak and hide.

It's also worth iterating that nobles are exceptional people - they're Zalanthan celebrities.  This is, I think, what Bast's original post was getting to.

Try to imagine Will Farrell (say, wearing his Talladega Nights onesie) going unnoticed for very long in a public place "because [he's] not making any noise."  Imagine the lengths he would have to go to in order to make sure nobody recognized him.  He'd literally have to hide under a table.

But eccentricities are totally fine, and I would think they'd almost be expected amid the noble population.  Playing some equivalent to "Padme's handmaid" or whatever in that awful Star Wars movie seems like it could add to the world, and could be a lot of fun.

I want to end on a positive note, so I have to say that stuff like this is awesome:

I played a sneaky noble  

But she wore leather and a mask when she did it

IT WAS A HOBBY

Erythil, thank you for playing that character.  

[Semper]

Real life celebrities are not the equivalent of Nobles, neither is a detective trying to trail someone "hiding or sneaking".

I think we could continue to argue why, but it comes down to how people interpret the documentation. I think the bottom line is if you feel your Noble is in the right to be sneaking around, do it. Its not other players that should dictate how you play, its the documentation and how that is interpretted by staff. If you have a problem with another player"s roleplay, put in a player complaint or do something appropriate about it ig. Better yet, be the role model that you think is deserving, and maybe you'll make a bigger impact on the game than what this thread will do (which is nothing really).

[racurtne]

Personally, I get lots of good ideas on how to improve my role-play from the gdb. Just filter out the other noise. This thread is not without merit if someone takes something away from it.

IMO Hide+Shadow is totally tailing someone...right up until you follow them into their tiny apartment, then it becomes something else entirely.

[Barzalene]

If I've hurt any feelings, I certainly didn't mean to. I personally have not witnessed sneaking nobles.

That said, I  have expectations for nobles. I think they should act like nobles. And hiding under a table in a tavern is not what I think nobles do. If you're being eccentric, then it should be clear that your pc is eccentric and not just poorly played.  Forgetting to turn off sneak, or take the pick out of your hand isn't poor play. Making a habit of practicing hide and sneak randomly in public whenever bored or it occurs to you seems like a poor choice when playing a pc who is meant to be noticeably exceptional.  

[racurtne]

Hide skill =/= hiding under a table in a tavern.

That's going to get you noticed in a heartbeat. The hide skill is doing whatever is appropriate in that location to remain unnoticed. In a tavern, you're standing in a crowd of carousing tavern-goers or sitting at a table in the rear surrounded by others and not drawing attention.

Hardly seems eccentric for a noble to want to dress in something nondescript and observe how people behave when they're not bowing and scraping to him/her. Little weird, admittedly, but people can be curious.

[Semper]

Hide skill =/= hiding under a table in a tavern.

That's going to get you noticed in a heartbeat. The hide skill is doing whatever is appropriate in that location to remain unnoticed. In a tavern, you're standing in a crowd of carousing tavern-goers or sitting at a table in the rear surrounded by others and not drawing attention.

Hardly seems eccentric for a noble to want to dress in something non-descript and observe how people behave when they're not bowing and scraping to him/her.

If we do get into the nitty detail, hide inside a tavern is not "blending into the crowd". Someone dressed in rags and someone decked in silks cannot equally "blend into the crowd" if they have the same hide skill. What they are doing is using the environment to hide them, so hiding behind the curtains or crates, climbing into windows, stalking along the roof, so on. This is why it's "noticeable" when someone is trying to hide and fails, or that you see "a shadow" when you have scan and see someone hidden.

[racurtne]

Well, I said dressing in something nondescript, not sneaking in silks. That is silly.

What you are describing in my opinion are limitations of the code. The person doing the hiding can specify how they are hiding with semote. I disagree completely with the notion that you are exclusively using the environment. That's silly to me.

You can be 'noticed' by an observant person. Doesn't have to be hiding under a table comical IMO. When sneaking down the street, you might be following a group of vnpcs to avoid notice, but then they are not talking to you or interacting in any significant way and an observant person notices this inconsistency with the 'fiction' you are trying to create of being part of this group. In this example, you are acting strangely, yes, so they might suspect you are up to no good. You are not, however, bending over and tip-toeing down a street.

Edit: In a tavern, you walk in behind a few taller people, deliberately obscuring yourself from the bar. You then settle in at a far table to gamble, but really your attention is on the goings on at another table. An observant person notices you watching the other tavern-goers more than your own game/drink, perhaps they notice you focusing on someone in particular. Perhaps they notice you react to something they said, they caught a tell, and know you're not there for your enjoyment, but rather to eavesdrop/spy. Still suspicious, not ridiculous.

Anyway, that's my two-sids on this.

[Barzalene]

Hide skill =/= hiding under a table in a tavern.

That's going to get you noticed in a heartbeat. The hide skill is doing whatever is appropriate in that location to remain unnoticed. In a tavern, you're standing in a crowd of carousing tavern-goers or sitting at a table in the rear surrounded by others and not drawing attention.

Hardly seems eccentric for a noble to want to dress in something non-descript and observe how people behave when they're not bowing and scraping to him/her. Little weird, admittedly, but people can be curious.

If they are in disguise that's not applicable. I assumed the op referred to those people who do things like type hide in the middle of a conversation.

[racurtne]

If they are in disguise that's not applicable. I assumed the op referred to those people who do things like type hide in the middle of a conversation.

Yeah, I gotcha. I try to give those people the benefit of the doubt if in a public place. IE they turn off into the crowd before I can say another word. Sometimes people leave you feeling like you just got Batman'd and I agree those are some pretty   moments.

[Saellyn]

Being batman'd is great.

Code Select Expand

The sneaky, dark clothed man says, in sirihish,
     "Be seeing you."

You say, quickly, in sirihish,
     "Waitijusthadonemore Krath damnit he's gone."

[Semper]

Sometimes you can bend the limits on what code dictates for the sake of roleplay and context which is fine. I guess to explain why I am defending this is because that is not the 'norm', and it seems people expect it to be the norm because the code allows them to do it.

In the example of hiding in a tavern, if you are indeed allowed to use the crowd like the environment, then the code should give you that benefit. As it is however, the more people that are present in a room, the harder it is to hide, the easier it is that someone notices you. Also, the heavier equipment you are wearing, the harder it is to sneak/hide. A player can glean this from the docs. That means the code does not allow you to use the crowd to "hide", you are using the environment in a blatant way of obscuring your presence. You are crawling around, having to vary your pace to move from area to area, possibly required to fit into small spaces, etc. This is a jump in logic, but I'm going that far to make a point: the code supports one view of roleplay while not so much with the other.

So to come back around to the original poster's comment, how someone views what sneaking/hiding is would definitely make a difference on how someone should react when they see a noble sneaking/hiding. If sneaking and hiding is "walking with silent steps" and "blending into the crowd", then its perfectly alright for a silk wearing noble to use these skills in the social public (because there are lots of noise and there are other nobles/merchants walking around). However if the code says sneaking is "using the environment to get around unnoticed", and hiding as "using the environment to mask your presence", then it makes no sense that a noble would slink around like that.

I could imagine them crawling on their hands and knees behind a table, hiding behind a curtain, skirting around from behind someone's area of view, walking in the shadow of a low-hanging roof, etc, and so long as the noble's player does not semote and show that they are doing something contrary to how I view the code, I am allowed to interpret their sneaking/hiding noble as being ridiculous because the code support my view of those skills.

[Patuk]

Being batman'd is great.

Code Select Expand

The sneaky, dark clothed man says, in sirihish,
     "Be seeing you."

You say, quickly, in sirihish,
     "Waitijusthadonemore Krath damnit he's gone."

I love doing this with my sneakies

[Saellyn]

Sometimes you can bend the limits on what code dictates for the sake of roleplay and context which is fine. I guess to explain why I am defending this is because that is not the 'norm', and it seems people expect it to be the norm because the code allows them to do it.

In the example of hiding in a tavern, if you are indeed allowed to use the crowd like the environment, then the code should give you that benefit. As it is however, the more people that are present in a room, the harder it is to hide, the easier it is that someone notices you. Also, the heavier equipment you are wearing, the harder it is to sneak/hide. A player can glean this from the docs. That means the code does not allow you to use the crowd to "hide", you are using the environment in a blatant way of obscuring your presence. You are crawling around, having to vary your pace to move from area to area, possibly required to fit into small spaces, etc. This is a jump in logic, but I'm going that far to make a point: the code supports one view of roleplay while not so much with the other.

So to come back around to the original poster's comment, how someone views what sneaking/hiding is would definitely make a difference on how someone should react when they see a noble sneaking/hiding. If sneaking and hiding is "walking with silent steps" and "blending into the crowd", then its perfectly alright for a silk wearing noble to use these skills in the social public (because there are lots of noise and there are other nobles/merchants walking around). However if the code says sneaking is "using the environment to get around unnoticed", and hiding as "using the environment to mask your presence", then it makes no sense that a noble would slink around like that.

I could imagine them crawling on their hands and knees behind a table, hiding behind a curtain, skirting around from behind someone's area of view, walking in the shadow of a low-hanging roof, etc, and so long as the noble's player does not semote and show that they are doing something contrary to how I view the code, I am allowed to interpret their sneaking/hiding noble as being ridiculous because the code support my view of those skills.

The code doesn't fucking tell me that my slashing weapon isn't being used to stab somene, so the code is not going to tell me how I'm using sneak/hide. Fuck that.

[Semper]

The code doesn't fucking tell me that my slashing weapon isn't being used to stab somene, so the code is not going to tell me how I'm using sneak/hide. Fuck that.

That reinforces one of my points, which is that "sometimes you can bend the limits on what code dictates for the sake of roleplay and context ... that is not the 'norm', and it seems people expect it to be the norm because the code allows them to do it."

If someone consistently uses a slashing weapon as a piercing weapon because ("the code doesn't tell me otherwise"), and you aren't emoting to show that you are using the code in a fashion it isn't intended, you're not playing the game as it should be played. In a sense, that's "cheating".

That said, it seems you're offended by my discussion about this... that wasn't my intention.

[CodeMaster]

In the example of hiding in a tavern, if you are indeed allowed to use the crowd like the environment, then the code should give you that benefit. As it is however, the more people that are present in a room, the harder it is to hide, the easier it is that someone notices you. Also, the heavier equipment you are wearing, the harder it is to sneak/hide. A player can glean this from the docs. That means the code does not allow you to use the crowd to "hide", you are using the environment in a blatant way of obscuring your presence. You are crawling around, having to vary your pace to move from area to area, possibly required to fit into small spaces, etc. This is a jump in logic, but I'm going that far to make a point: the code supports one view of roleplay while not so much with the other.

I can see where you're coming from.  I will pipe up and say if you try to hide in a VNPC-populated place, the game will literally say that you "try to blend with the crowd" or something similar.  You get a coded bonus in this case (Morgenes disclosed this on the GDB in some past post).  I'm pretty sure this message is still in the game.

It's true, as you say, that the more people (PCs) are present in a room, the harder it is to get away with hiding.  Similarly, heavy equipment reduces your ability to hide effectively.  Those are the coded facts!  But I believe Morgenes (in earlier posts on steal or watch) likened a large PC presence to a particularly "tight crowd".  It's a weird analogy, but it's one way to get our heads around the difference between PC and NPC/VNPC populations.

[RogueGunslinger]

Please stop using the nuances of code to dictate how you roleplay.

[Semper]

I can see where you're coming from.  I will pipe up and say if you try to hide in a VNPC-populated place, the game will literally say that you "try to blend with the crowd" or something similar.  You get a coded bonus in this case (Morgenes disclosed this on the GDB in some past post).  I'm pretty sure this message is still in the game.

It's true, as you say, that the more people (PCs) are present in a room, the harder it is to get away with hiding.  Similarly, heavy equipment reduces your ability to hide effectively.  Those are the coded facts!  But I believe Morgenes (in earlier posts on steal or watch) likened a large PC presence to a particularly "tight crowd".  It's a weird analogy, but it's one way to get our heads around the difference between PC and NPC/VNPC populations.

That's an example I didn't consider, and you're absolutely right in that case. I guess the only other thing I'd suggest considering is why your noble would consider blending into such a thick crowd in the first place, with smelly commoners and who knows what else? Even if it's a "hobby" as people keep using as defense, that is not a likely hobby to expect from someone pampered in silk their whole life and expected to act a certain way by Allanaki society. I agree everyone can play their character as they want, but by playing outside of the norms of code/documentation, you set a precedent that confuses other players, and threads like this one pop up (which are helpful as a discussion, not as bashing other players).

Still, it's up to the player to play how they want, and it just brings everything back to the point that if you see something that's jarring as a player, put in a player complaint or eventually play a role where you can set the example.

[CodeMaster]

Please stop using the nuances of code to dictate how you roleplay.

Aye aye aye sir

[Barzalene]

I can see where you're coming from.  I will pipe up and say if you try to hide in a VNPC-populated place, the game will literally say that you "try to blend with the crowd" or something similar.  You get a coded bonus in this case (Morgenes disclosed this on the GDB in some past post).  I'm pretty sure this message is still in the game.

It's true, as you say, that the more people (PCs) are present in a room, the harder it is to get away with hiding.  Similarly, heavy equipment reduces your ability to hide effectively.  Those are the coded facts!  But I believe Morgenes (in earlier posts on steal or watch) likened a large PC presence to a particularly "tight crowd".  It's a weird analogy, but it's one way to get our heads around the difference between PC and NPC/VNPC populations.

That's an example I didn't consider, and you're absolutely right in that case. I guess the only other thing I'd suggest considering is why your noble would consider blending into such a thick crowd in the first place, with smelly commoners and who knows what else? Even if it's a "hobby" as people keep using as defense, that is not a likely hobby to expect from someone pampered in silk their whole life and expected to act a certain way by Allanaki society. I agree everyone can play their character as they want, but by playing outside of the norms of code/documentation, you set a precedent that confuses other players, and threads like this one pop up (which are helpful as a discussion, not as bashing other players).

Still, it's up to the player to play how they want, and it just brings everything back to the point that if you see something that's jarring as a player, put in a player complaint or eventually play a role where you can set the example.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say. If you app a noble, it would be nice to intend to play it like a noble.