The Sneaky Noble?

[Bast]

Okay so this has been bothering me for a while. Once a long, long time ago I got to watch a pretty epic Borsail tear a Fale lord apart in the Traders Inn for skulking about like an ELf. This conversation so effected me that I decided to NEVER branch the -Aide- I had at the time because I felt a person in her social standing wasn't/shouldn't be sneaking around the city like Rinither. I played this PC for 2 years irl..She was a social role. It never once bothered me that she couldn't do much codedly.

Over the last two years however I suddenly see nobles creeping about everywhere. Nobles hiding behind curtains, in the rafters and under tables..."Oh! That strange shadow in the corner of the room? Thats just Lady Borsail she likes to hang out in dark shadowy corners and lurk behind bookshelves" Its drives me nuts this isn't called out on more. Nobles have servants to do their spying. Use your aides that's why you have them! Also they look ridiculous with their guards, that are not good at stealth,  lurking along behind them. I think what was really is jarring to me though is after the first time I saw this behavior instead of seeing the other Nobles at in the room just at the chance to down one of their peers they all just played it off like it was joke. Then like the same week I started seeing another one of them do it. That was about 2 years ago and now its just common thing and no one ever seems to say anything about it. I guess I am just wondering if this bothers anyone else as much as me?

[Barzalene]

Yes. Thats moronic. It's one thing to do it with some cognizance of the awkwardness. And the world should react, not imitate.  But for everyone to start slinking around like elves is not the right direction. I hope you send complaints so staff can correct.

[slvrmoontiger]

Well here are my 2 'sids worth on this subject. My characters used to ALWAYS suspect those who were sneaking around as either spying or being assassins or looking to lift something from someone. In fact I had a character that (in private severely questioned a then friend of his about why said friend was hiding out in the streets in the daylight. Seems I got accused of trying to guild sniff and was told by staff that just because someone is sneaking or hiding my character shouldn't automatically assume that character is a thief, spy, or assassin. They could just simply be "blending in" or "waiting quietly" in a place for someone to show up. This really confused me. My characters still tend to think something is "fishy" about anyone that they see "blending in" or whatever. But I try to be more diplomatic about how they approach the situation.

[Bast]

Well here are my 2 'sids worth on this subject. My characters used to ALWAYS suspect those who were sneaking around as either spying or being assassins or looking to lift something from someone. In fact I had a character that (in private severely questioned a then friend of his about why said friend was hiding out in the streets in the daylight. Seems I got accused of trying to guild sniff and was told by staff that just because someone is sneaking or hiding my character shouldn't automatically assume that character is a thief, spy, or assassin. They could just simply be "blending in" or "waiting quietly" in a place for someone to show up. This really confused me. My characters still tend to think something is "fishy" about anyone that they see "blending in" or whatever. But I try to be more diplomatic about how they approach the situation.

But  Nobles -don't- blend in with the crowd..crowds part when they pass

[Down Under]

Unless the Noble is taking great pains to dress differently, hide their 'signs of Noble office', or is just really damn good at finding shadows that pool in taverns, they shouldn't be sneaking or hiding IMHO. As pointed out, it would be much more difficult for someone who stands out in a crowd, to blend into one.

[Patuk]

The one time I saw a noble sneak about, I was a sneaky myself, called them out on it, and got offered a job.

That said, for nobles to sneak and hide anywhere that isn't the noble quarter is silly, yes.

[Down Under]

The one time I saw a noble sneak about, I was a sneaky myself, called them out on it, and got offered a job.

That said, for nobles to sneak and hide anywhere that isn't the noble quarter is silly, yes.

haha, that's pretty funny.

[Marauder Moe]

Eh.

I don't think it's terribly unreasonable that some quirky, rebellious, young noble would want to ditch their guards, put on a dark, hooded cloak, and mingle/sneak amongst the common rabble.

But this sort of behavior should be quite rare and it should have consequences.

Sneaking with NPC bodyguards should probably not be allowed, OOCly, since it doesn't make much sense.  Probably ditto for sneaking without taking off brightly-colored silks and shiny metal rings.

[wizturbo]

Yes, the stereotypical noble probably has no business sneaking around.  Not every noble is stereotypical though. 

Putting in a complaint through the request tool will let the staff sort out whether it was justified/in-character, but I would react appropriately ICly.

[Patuk]

I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.

[Talia]

I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.

Or we can just do what we've been doing, which is when we see a noble acting silly we let them know they should stop being silly and/or remember to switch back to walking when they should (surely I'm not the only player who ever forgot to do this?). Sometimes nobles are actually not being silly, they are being IC, in which case it's all good!

[Semper]

Being a social role (nobility/aide/etc), I think the consequence should be dealt with through IC gossip/rumors/etc. Though, it's pretty jarring if someone who you expect to be a role model is breaking what's appropriate. That said, if there's a lack of appropriate role models (and such things bother you) maybe it's time to fill that position out for the game? =)

[I should probably add that this applies to Allanaki social roles? The whole social scene in Allanak is about who is the most important/richest/powerful person in the city, and you make sure that everyone knows that. A noble/influential GMH agent who is trying to avoid bringing attention to themselves in a crowd is either in the presence of someone greater, or has done something wrong. Tuluk has their own Strange Stuff.]

[Barzalene]

Its a great distinction. If someone is sneaking without being aware they may have just forgotten to walk. You have to cut people some slack. If they're hiding at the bar and talking to you while hidden and generally being silly that's another story.

[Molten Heart]

I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.

Rate pubilc areas by it's socioconomic basis giving surface clothing thats about that level a penalty to sneak/hide for.neing too flashy. Do the same retrospectively for ragged/unfashionable clothing.

[wizturbo]

Rate pubilc areas by it's socioconomic basis giving surface clothing thats about that level a penalty to sneak/hide for.neing too flashy. Do the same retrospectively for ragged/unfashionable clothing.

In a perfect world, sure.  I would much rather time be placed on a bjillion things before this though.

[nauta]

I think a lot of this could be solved by giving silks a penalty to hide and perhaps do the same for people past a certain rank in noble clans. I don't think it makes much sense for anyonr in silks to hide for very long, now that I think of it.

Rate pubilc areas by it's socioconomic basis giving surface clothing thats about that level a penalty to sneak/hide for.neing too flashy. Do the same retrospectively for ragged/unfashionable clothing.

There are two points that are getting mixed up.

1. The logic of coded success to hiding.  HIDE seems to be two things: clinging to shadows, on the one hand, and blending in with a crowd, on the other.  So if you have shadows, then I'm pretty sure the coded clothing works just fine.  If you are blending in with a crowd, however, dressing like a ninja at a fancy Borsail tea party might be rather crazy, or dressing like a noble at a Warrens orgy might be a bit much.  Maybe some code could be implemented to fix this, but that strikes me as really really hard, so let's just RP nice.

2. The social ramifications of a noble acting like a friggin' elf.  This can just be handled ICly (or via a character report).

[Bast]

2. The social ramifications of a noble acting like a friggin' elf.  This can just be handled ICly (or via a character report).

This!

[CodeMaster]

I'm not sure whether it's been fixed, but I think there's a bug where someone who can't see you can continue guarding you (effectively, even).

Fixing that small bug (and I think it's a bug, rather than a feature) might serve as a deterrent to elf emulation.

[Thunkkin]

Meh. I'm inclined to be very forgiving and give lots of benefit of the doubt on this. I've never played a noble, but having played a GMH family dude, I can sympathize with players who may want to enjoy their coded abilities as well as social abilities. The more we lock leaders in with rigid constraints, the more (some of) our quality players/leaders will be tempted to say screw it, store, and make indie rangers. Leaders are already highly limited. No need to jump onto the GDB and complain about situations you may not fully understand in an attempt to brow beat existing leaders into basically a MUSH experience.

Besides, without sneaky nobles, we wouldn't have the Scarlet Pimpernel, Batman, etc. ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAdFwL1ozHU

[HavokBlue]

I would advise taking into consideration that using the sneak command is not necessarily 'slinking around like an elf' and using the hide command is not necessarily 'hiding in the wardrobe'.

I would also advise taking into consideration that a lot of people (not just nobles) might forget they have Sneak enabled.

If you see something you think is questionable, say something to staff instead of calling out what appears to be current behavior (judging from your choice of words) on the GDB.

[Barzalene]

Meh. I'm inclined to be very forgiving and give lots of benefit of the doubt on this. I've never played a noble, but having played a GMH family dude, I can sympathize with players who may want to enjoy their coded abilities as well as social abilities. The more we lock leaders in with rigid constraints, the more (some of) our quality players/leaders will be tempted to say screw it, store, and make indie rangers. Leaders are already highly limited. No need to jump onto the GDB and complain about situations you may not fully understand in an attempt to brow beat existing leaders into basically a MUSH experience.

Besides, without sneaky nobles, we wouldn't have the Scarlet Pimpernel, Batman, etc. ...

I agree with your logic, but not your conclusion. I agree that we don't want to make sponsored role less fun. But I don't think relaxing expectations is the answer.

[nauta]

I'm not sure whether it's been fixed, but I think there's a bug where someone who can't see you can continue guarding you (effectively, even).

Fixing that small bug (and I think it's a bug, rather than a feature) might serve as a deterrent to elf emulation.

Agreed!  And the NPC in question still follows you when you are hidden, which HAS to be a bug right, because I can't figure out how to RP when that happens.

*start derail scree now*

There are a million dubious bugs related to HIDE!  Here's some others:

o You can follow someone (or shadow them) even if you can't see them.

o Someone can disappear from your sight even though you are watching them.  (This might not be a BUG, but it strikes me as dubious, since WATCH is already limiting - when you watch someone, you can't watch anyone else or use SCAN, so what's the point of WATCH if not to keep an eye on the person in question precisely so they can't slip out of your sight!)

o If you have something subdued, and are hidden, well, it looks like that subdied person is just being dragged along.

o Ditto with mounts (IIRC).

o Dwarves and Giants are capable of hiding.  (Ok, not a bug, but I've always been like: W.T.F. when that happens.)

o If a rat midfight decides to hide, you can suddenly be fighting someone you can't see.

o Rooms that clearly should break hide don't (rooms that are small which clearly state that it is well lit).

o A hidden person can start a brawl with you and it doesn't unhide them!

*end derail scree*

[Lizzie]

...and sometimes, the *character* is intentionally played by the player as a silly person. If that's the case, then it makes 100% total logical sense that he'd attempt to sneak around all the time. It would also make 100% total logical sense that he would think he's being crafty and clever and use thinks to express how tickled he is that he got past his Senior, or the Lord Templar, or his pesky brother's aide, or the elf loitering outside the bar, or the noble in the other house that he can't stand.

[RogueGunslinger]

...and sometimes, the *character* is intentionally played by the player as a silly person. If that's the case, then it makes 100% total logical sense that he'd attempt to sneak around all the time. It would also make 100% total logical sense that he would think he's being crafty and clever and use thinks to express how tickled he is that he got past his Senior, or the Lord Templar, or his pesky brother's aide, or the elf loitering outside the bar, or the noble in the other house that he can't stand.

Thank you. Was wondering if someone would point this out. I can even imagine a noble using sneak and hide who doesn't even have the skills.

I suggest everyone tries to have more fun with certain situations, and tries less to dictate how others play. But if you feel you really have to, player complaint is the way.

[CodeMaster]

I hope nobody is feeling called out about this.  Through the filter of my own character's eyes, the nobles and social elite in the game are doing a fantastic job.

I think everyone would agree there are circumstances where a noble would and could (realistically) get away with sneaking around.  100%.


Another thing I'll note: I find my play has improved by cycling in feedback from the GDB.  That's a much more encouraging way to improve compared to receiving a player complaint.  Maybe this thread is just one of those small things where someone might realize, "oh yeah, I have been a little fast and loose with my use of hide" -- and then it's done its job.