Elf racial running

[MeTekillot]

I mean. I play Armageddon to win. I don't want to lose all the time. That's not really fun. This isn't Dwarf Fortress.

[Patuk]

Suppose I do as you say. There is no code, it's perfect good fun to never accomplish a goddamn thing because every human can bash your face in, I just want to play the race.

Elves are a tribal people who are good runners.

Celves are neither of those things.

So, your response?

[Armaddict]

Okay.  Let's break it down.

What magickers lack in social clout and appreciation, they make up by sheer coded power and hilariously fun skillsets.

It's okay that people don't like mages because they're powerful.

Celves are just a weak race to pick. Disliked by default, no clan options if you actually want to contribute, and after seeing what kind of a mana pool they get I'm not even sure if they get better wisdom than humans do.

Metagame min-max mentality, maximizing stats for efficacy.

The human can not die when something looks at him wrong

Hyperbole about low endurance.

actually lift up a keg of beer

Hyperbole about low strength.

inftrate in a prestigious organisation,

A weird inferrance about how since elves are not well liked, they require huge boons to be worth playing.




Soooooo.  When I say 'step outside of the play to win' mentality, that's what I'm talking about.  You're trying to balance things out like it's an mmo, where there's discussions about how powerful this combo is and that combo.  As has been stated to you, personally, numerous times...I've literally played dozens of these, played them pretty dangerously, accomplished cool shit, and all through slipping into the mentality rather than what has apparently become the way to determine how races and classes are supposed to behave in the game.

This isn't D&D, this isn't an MMO, I pretty much wrinkle my nose at arguments that infer you're looking for better combat out of a race that is notoriously underhanded, and I get irritated that you all insist that the only way to make a race playable is to make it somehow beneficial to play it.  There is no documentation of elves being supreme badasses.  You're told upfront what you're getting, which is weaker than human, faster than human, more fragile than human, less liked than human, and always looking to get benefit (i.e. If you don't like playing someone who is -dependent- on being calculating, careful, underhanded, manipulative, and with more questionable scruples...then I simply say the elf is not for you).

The balance isn't supposed to be there.  The race gameplay is.  It's -fun-.  Unless you decide to focus on...'shit, my stats don't let me play this like my human ranger, this sucks.'

So, with that in mind, yes.  I think you sound ludicrous whenever this comes up.  I think that rather than insist that because you don't enjoy it, something is wrong, you may want to treat it the same way I treat merchants and non-mundanes...probably cool, but just not my cup of tea.  They don't involve me in the game in the areas I want to be involved in.

So such statements as:

No, absolutely not, Are you even serious? I genuinely can't tell.

and

You're just embarassing yourself.

I find as personally attacking, in which case I will respond in kind.  You're being stubborn about something that isn't broken, particularly when I have already, numerous times, acceded the point that I, too, am not averse to city elf tribes being implemented in a productive way as per the documentation.  But taking it to the realm of calling them a useless part of the game world due to their coded nature is...counter-intuitive to the point of the design of them working exactly as intended, but being seen in a very one-dimensional field of view.

[MeTekillot]

Well what is your definition of 'cool things' my good man

[Fujikoma]

Having played a number of city-elves, each lasting (except one), at the least, 3 IG years, anywhere from 30-100 days played, I have to say that what Patuk is saying is -not- rediculous. That said, the last time I played a c-elf, I did notice a change in the atmosphere, or maybe it was just my approach. While following the racial documentation will, yes, allow you to survive longer, good luck having friends when everyone dies before you finish testing anyone, or shortly afterwards.

City elves need -something-. Everything is -not- working fine. In fact it's completely broken. Sorry Armaddict, but to me, you do sound ludicrous. I had some fun with my city elves, but mostly it was hell, a long, drawn-out hell, which I felt driven to continue because if I don't, who will? Yes, the social stigma is crushing. Elves don't even trust other elves, without a long, drawn-out series of dangerous tests, and even then, the other elf's paranoia is likely to get the better of them and likely result in some kind of needless life or death struggle. It's just not fun.

I'm not playing to win, I don't care about winning. I'm playing not to lose, I'm playing for long term character relations and arrangements. I don't think I'm asking too much there. No one should be playing to lose, unless it's IC for them to do so, and no PC should come right out of the box with "loser" stamped on their face because it's immersion breaking, one has to ask, how did this PC ever survive to this point in the first place?

[i love toilets]

It is completely broken. A few people can play c-elves and Armaddict sounds like one of them but when you have a zero karma race option which is one out of three, excepting that it is less martially capable then the other two which will always be a numbers dragger, and one out of twenty five players play that race, then we've got a big problem in terms of playability.

Now, if elves truly made better criminals, got higher skill caps for assassins/burglars or something like that, and if the running thing were implemented, I think that would begin to make a difference. Not fix it, but begin. Also I think the trust issues should change. Elves could trust a little more easily, still just as deeply to separate themselves from humans, but give them friends to rp with instead of making friends for them a rare and often shortlived situation. I imagine some people who want to play a fixed elven race would appreciate not treating everyone like the enemy or a potential victim all the time.

[Armaddict]

While following the racial documentation will, yes, allow you to survive longer, good luck having friends when everyone dies before you finish testing anyone, or shortly afterwards.

...I don't see where the documentation leads you to believe that you're going to be a socially accepted individual in the first place, or that you're going to have a group of friends(EDIT:  Aside from tribe.  As noted, I'm not averse to coded tribes, but it has not broken the role for me).  So far as people dying before you can finish testing them, or shortly after?  I'd say clans have the same problem.

But ya know?  This gets completely out of hand every time I disagree.  I'm not saying 'Fuck you guys, don't touch it'.  But I am saying that it's completely fruitful when played a few times and you get the gist of it.  I'd even go so far as to say as losing your first few elves due to trusting people actually helps you get the hang of why they're not trusting.  I don't think it -necessitates- change in itself, so much as a different expectation when choosing it.  And, in earlier posts, it was also talked about how I think the things that make city-elves 'underpowered' is not as much a product of the game or game world but how many expect it to be played.

I -often- play characters that don't travel.  I -often- play characters that are not particularly well-liked.  Those don't break the character for me, they add to it.  I think it contributes to the overall difference between character to character, and the 'realism' of the documentation.  We circumvent a lot of those rules of documentation for the sake of playability, as I said in the earlier post.  I just think the playability factor is getting to the point where even things that are -supposed- to be ordeals are being ragged on for...being an ordeal.

[Eyeball]

Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy? Maybe some of them are mentally capable of adopting a clan as their tribe somehow?

[i love toilets]

Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy?

The Byn used to be one of only two ways I knew how to survive as an elf in Allanak before somebody with two stripes decided to prevent elf entry into the Byn at some point. That was a while ago though, not sure how its like now.

[Fujikoma]

Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy? Maybe some of them are mentally capable of adopting a clan as their tribe somehow?

Yeah, but depending on who the leader is, the Byn can be a pretty shitty tribe, it'll never be the same. Kurac would likely be closer in concept, but again, all depends on who the boss is, and the sorts of experiences they've had with other PC elves who've read the docs as "Hahahaha! Steal everything that's not nailed down!!!" instead of "How can I cleverly get away with this?", the latter of which is a highly useful perspective to have in any organization, as long as properly directed, and the former of which is sheer idiocy bordering on lunacy.

[HavokBlue]

Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy? Maybe some of them are mentally capable of adopting a clan as their tribe somehow?

I don't know if the NPCs we're thinking of are the same NPCs, or if I'm going to get slapped for posting top sekrit information, but I'm pretty sure those are not city elves.

[Harmless]

My best warrior so far has been a c elf, just saying, they were totally unkillable, I stored out of boredom, etc etc. I just want things to be realistic. I want city elf pride to be sensical. When I see really humble and wimpy city elves, all my city elves see in those city elves is a corpse that still walks. But interestingly that is also because my city elves have no real ability to protect others. Keep themselves alive, sure, sometimes,but not protect others. That is kind of a turn off for me, I love supporting and c elves are really only good at looking out for #1. I can see a group of c elves getting along but everyone has to stand on their own. That is fun too but it is frustrating as a player feeling like you have no power to keep others alive. Humans on the other hand can learn over much practice and such to protect others super effectively. By having enough of everything.

I will keep playing city elves but they do take a backburner spot compared to my other race/guild favorites because I enjoy group plots and a c elf playing true to the role is either alone or, as fuji says, making trust tests on soon to be dead people.

I have known some super long lived c elves who were definitely not breeds and I really admire their patience with solo RP. I can't do as much solo RP.

I dislike the word broken though. I pick city elves for the flavor and enjoy them for a few months and usually get a good response from people for them. I admit I would stick to the c elf role a lot longer if there was more tribe going on because that is my preferred playing style. Or if their racial skill bonuses were enough that every c elf could truly look out for #1. I say add hide to all c elves. And flee if it isn't already. That would do the trick.

I think a lot of players share an OOC distaste for them because of the tropes of elves turning them off. I can't prove that though -- oh wait, I can.. You see a GDB post like "fuck elves"every week here.

Oh. Just wanted to add. My city elf warrior above was only unkillable because by the time I made that PC I had learned how the game works. To the tune of, I had played 30 PCs at that point. The first city elves I made all died awfully noobish deaths, usually because I thought I could take them outside and hunt. City elves don't hunt well. That's why they can't pick ranger. And shouldn't be attempted to be played like rangers roll.. but anyway. Still, even my best city elf ever was still really unable to protect others, so all that metagame knowledge still didn't really do much. If all city elves could actually watch out for themselves without knowing exactly with guild/subguild (ahem, extended subguild) to pick, or without getting enough luck on the stats roll, then it would be much more fun to be them, because you wouldn't just keep seeing the holocaust play out. i.e., I agree with patuk and metekillot here.

[Patuk]

Suppose I do as you say. There is no code, it's perfect good fun to never accomplish a goddamn thing because every human can bash your face in, I just want to play the race.

Elves are a tribal people who are good runners.

Celves are neither of those things.

So, your response?

You never responded to this. But okay, new post, cool. I'll lay off the personal stuff. The hyperbole is just my style and I think you'll live through it. And the day I stop looking at celf coded power is the day celf pc's outnumber dwarf and hg pc's added up together.

None of what you have said so far adresses the point that celves don't get the things that define their very race. No tribes, no use in running about. You have not played the race as intended, for the sheer reason that you've never seen an idiot dwarf get piled up on after being dumb enough to hit you. Nobody gets to use dat sweet swift movement because running from NPC soldiers is a futile task when they needn't even chase, since they all instantly know your position and will subdue you after you went three rooms. I'm sure you had a lot of fun playing shifty, downtrodden, underhanded celves - I know I did. But the fact remains that you can do all this and more with a human PC of the same mindset, and have a far easier and no less appropriate time for it.

[Nyr]

C-elves should at least be able to run in the city without losing stamina.

City-elves do have some bonuses to running.  This is one of them--bonuses inside the city for running.

There is nothing in discussion at this time for adjusting their coded benefits.

I'm late to the party, but here's a hunch about the backstory: at some point elves were way more codedly powerful than humans (maybe even now they still are) and this caused some twink griefing or at least made it too easy to twink grief.  Staff had a look, and have slowly been rolling back c-elves at least to make them less twink-griefalicious.  However, now c-elves are just miserable little runts who only masochists play solo RP with for flavor.

This is pretty much incorrect.

If that's even close to the ballpark, what about this to get more c-elves in game (because I love the flavor of scummy c-elves): make them codedly as powerful or even weaker than humans on all levels and give them a clan (make all PC c-elves part of the same tribe).

Elves are a tribal people who are good runners.

Celves are neither of those things.

We have mentioned in other threads that we have plans and wish to do more for city-elf stuff (such as playable tribes that are closer to what tribes should be).  Players may now also create their own city-elf tribes.  Increasing the amount of clan options outside of tribal/outcast/social underdog/dregs of society roles is not in the cards.  

Patience is requested for staff work on such things, but certainly not expected, seeing as how this is yet another thread suggesting things should be done for city-elves.

City Elves                                                            (Races)

  Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas.

A project I've started working on is demographic information as it relates to Zalanthas, its regions, and playable roles.  When completed, it will hopefully make for a better understanding (where applicable) of tribal roles in the grand scheme of things in Zalanthas.  With that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

[Patuk]

With that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

[Fujikoma]

With that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

ruff circle

[Patuk]

No, but really, more dwarves and giants seems like the last thing we need in-game.

[CodeMaster]

With that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

There probably isn't an answer to this question - except that players should play the roles that appeal to them most.  If the PC representation matched the virtual world, we'd almost all be playing unglamorous road slaves, water carriers, misc. labor, or beggars.

(FWIW, I think half-elves are #2 in PC terms.  Just a guess.  Which is interesting, because I consider them to be at least as challenging to play.)

[Patuk]

I think it is dwarves, but you may be correct. The irony of the situation is that when you skew the docs and make elves even more of a minority, it should logically follow that half-elves should become even rarer.

Another point is that breeds prove that people seem to like the idea of playing 'elves that get to ride.' Or I could be wrong, and people just like the breed mindset wayyyy more than elven rp. Either or.

I guess I'm just cynical enough to believe that people would suddenly pick up celves en masse if they magicaly received godlike stats over night. I don't think it's so much 'people hate to play this role' as it is 'people generally prefer not to have horrendous stats and be gimped in many ways.'

Unless they do. But people who like being gimped can do so even without playing celves.

[wizturbo]

(FWIW, I think half-elves are #2 in PC terms.  Just a guess.  Which is interesting, because I consider them to be at least as challenging to play.)

I agree with you on the #2 PC population.  And I agree, they're a challenging personality/role play race, but they're not nearly as limited in play ability options.

Plus, I'm sure there are many halfbreeds pretending to be human.  

[Nyr]

With that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

I say that because the documentation may say something about the world without it matching what PCs do in the world.  As for the second question, I'm not sure--like I said, I really just started on it and am not aiming towards any particular end in mind at this point except to make sure it helps flesh out the areas that need it (mostly tribes and cities).

[Patuk]

Okay, that does make sense.

(Though I still think elves are underplayed, but. Fair.)

[wizturbo]

Start a city-elf tribe, Patuk.  Family role calls seem far too infrequent on the player announcement forum lately!

[Fujikoma]

Start a city-elf tribe, Patuk.  Family role calls seem far too infrequent on the player announcement forum lately!

I need a break from suck, at least for a little bit, so I'm out.

[Patuk]

It may take a little while, but alright, I will.