Elf racial running

[valeria]

C-elves should at least be able to run in the city without losing stamina.

[RogueGunslinger]

They pretty much can. Some roads are strange, but for the most part an elf will always be able to out-run anything else in the city. Add in their speed and it's even more in their favor.


I don't think C-elves need any help with travel outside the gates, that doesn't seem natural to me. They need maxed steal. You know, because their entire culture is based around theft. They need a clan. You know, because their entire culture is based around tribalism.

[valeria]

That might be true in Allanak (I wouldn't know).  But I played a city elf in Tuluk less than a year ago, and most of the places I ran that weren't indoors rooms sapped 2 or 3 stamina per room.

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe I was comparing an elf in one sort of room, to a human in another sort of room. Just did some running and was only losing 1 stamina in the area I tested... On a non-elf character. So yeah, maybe it's not like I thought it was.

[MeTekillot]

So you tellin' me. . . city elves can't even run better. . . in the city?

[i love toilets]

One time I brought spice by accident into Allanak and spamwalked for a while before my elf realized that soldiers had been chasing me due to the weird scroll outline from previous rooms.

[MeTekillot]

I think that's just cause tall+ high agility. Which is. . . okay, I guess.

[Harmless]

it has always seemed really weird to me that c-elves get this incredible stamina when running in crowded city streets, but then suddenly become absurdly wimpy and can't make it to the next village over without trying to rest (and let's face it, with their endurance, they can't recover stamina in the wilderness without a tent), it just makes no sense. How is moving in the absurd Zalanthan heat in a city THAT different from moving in the absurd Zalanthan heat out in the wastes? Most of them are even flat -- if it's FLAT terrain that matters, why can't c-elves jog all they want in the salt flats? At least then they've have an advantage SOMEWHERE.

In the end it all just feels like an artifact of ancient coding, when c-elves were (let's face it) only really thought out as far as their tribes went, and now that there aren't any coded, staff-supported c-elf tribes... things just don't really feel good for them.

So yeah, I totally support them getting something to more realistically reflect their running endurance, something exactly in between desert elf level (which is maybe OP) and what other races get in the wastes would be fine -- 2-3 stamina loss per room, 4-5 in hard to traverse areas such as rocky cliffs.

[HavokBlue]

I don't think the reasons desert elves are restricted to a small area have anything to do with how well they run or hide or sneak.

I don't think giving city elves a degree of wilderness running or the ranger class would break anything.

I don't think turning running into a skill solves a whole lot besides letting city-elves eventually become somewhat competent at travel, because the travel issue is only one part of the vast problem of city elves as playable characters.


Desert elves need more, or different playable tribes. Compounded by the fact that one d-elf tribe literally cannot leave the Tablelands except in extreme circumstances, the only time you're likely to even encounter one of these elves is when they want to buy a 5000 coin bow or climbing spikes. The odds of encountering a PC desert elf in the desert are slim to none.

City elves need more clan options, and some sort of noticeable coded benefit to counter the absolutely massive stigma and isolation they face in-game (if not in the virtual world).

[Majikal]

Not really seeing a whole lot of naysaying from the playerbase on this idea. Most people seem to support it, hopefully it gains some traction.


Personally just setting them up with d-elf run wouldn't be OP. They'd still be chillin around 100stam with shittier strength for gear than most d-elves, where my last d-elf was rocking a whoppin 240 stam.

[Harmless]

okay, so now that I spoke fully in support of the change, and after reading this:

Not really seeing a whole lot of naysaying from the playerbase on this idea. Most people seem to support it, hopefully it gains some traction.

Personally just setting them up with d-elf run wouldn't be OP. They'd still be chillin around 100stam with shittier strength for gear than most d-elves, where my last d-elf was rocking a whoppin 240 stam.

I am going to play devil's advocate.

Sandcloth
(Fabrics)
Sandcloth, a tightwoven but light fabric, is one of the staples of Zalanthan wear. It is produced from a variety of fibers, the name being attached to the type of weave, rather than its origin. Because it is lightweight, cheap, and durable, as well as resisting the blowing sand, many travellers favor attire made of this fabric.

Tent
(Miscellaneous)
Tents are used by desert wanderers to provide some measure of protection from the elements during their travels.

So the issue is that c-elves can't wander and travel the desert effectively? The combination of sandcloth and tents, two commonly used items by travellers, DO take a HUGE bite out of the problem, codedly. Plus walking, not running -- and taking note of the weather, resting in the right places, and avoiding dangers with the careful application of resting and rapid walking when needed. I have played at least a few long-lived tribeless c-elves that had the benefit of other tribeless/family role c-elf mentors to teach them ICly how to do these things, and it was like a revelation. I think since then I much more greatly enjoy playing c-elves, though coming up with a concept that has any sort of IC reason to WANT to go outside of the gates is rare and or difficult. Usually, it's for nefarious, i.e. smuggling activities, and when you realize how much care and planning has to go into getting a group of c-elves from one city to the other, you ask yourself why you didn't just make a human or half-elf or dwarf or half-giant smuggler instead -- but it was GREAT fun!! I assure ya'll.

I'm just naysaying for the sake of richer discussion; I still personally feel c-elves need something more, and that the lengths they have to endure to accomplish basic travelling are too much. I'd love if people poked at my argument above, but it all felt nicely IC, it wasn't a huge coded leap, and it still felt very elfy, especially since I was doing it in the company of other c-elves who I thought were much better at RPing c-elves than me.

Just to expand: the "system" of using sandcloth and a tent is "balanced." The tent burdens you -- the sandcloth fails to armor you. That is as it should be. City elves are NOT supposed to be able to do everything other races can do in the wastes. they are supposed to stay in cities. However, city elves are documented travellers -- from city to city. They get some huge benefits from using sandcloth and tents -- to the tune of a maximum stamina in the 160-180 range without even trying that hard -- and we didn't even start discussing spice. But those benefits mean you're unarmored and burdened, so you're not going to win at fights. So avoid them! City elves are great at escaping things usually, so that makes up for it. Basically, it works for what it's supposed to be, which is that city elves stick to their cities and maybe city-hop when compelled to, either by outside forces or their internal urge to wander from their ancestry in common with desert elves. But they are not supposed to turn into hunters and traders and wanderers all in one, because that would just make them walking humans.

[MeTekillot]

I must be wearing the wrong gear if you'regetting 80 extra stam lpoints and I'm only getting like,35, tops

[CodeMaster]

I must be wearing the wrong gear if you'regetting 80 extra stam lpoints and I'm only getting like,35, tops

This is a combination of insane trial and error (buy all the turbans, tailor the ones that don't fit you, and then try them all on), looking at what other people are wearing, and luck.  Something I "invested" in while playing offpeak in Red Storm once.  It feels metagamey, and it is.  But if you're a city elf warrior, you're probably going to want those extra bits of movement so you can kick the odd scrab without jeopardizing your ability to return home.


Off on a tangent: one thing I noticed when I played a city elf (the useless shit) is that you're forced to constantly negotiate with little idiosyncrasies in the game, because you're an edge case.  You're constantly accommodating the quirks of the encumbrance code (hey my encumbrance is lighter if I take this thing out of my backpack and carry it in my inventory), for example...

My general feeling about city elves is that they aren't thoroughly "playtested" the way humans are.  I understand the staff have a dozen other things on their plate and have been good to me in the past when they saw something amiss (thanks again Welda!)...

But you have things like the roads in Tuluk costing stamina to run in with a city elf (don't know if this has been fixed), items with idiosyncratic weights that really only affect people at the lowest tiers of strength (mugs and bottles low-strength city elves can't hold even when empty; an absolute dearth of shield and bow items combined with the fact that shields can get heavier after you repair them, etc.); the fact that the 'directions' command didn't work in their Allanaki neighborhood until relatively recently; vendors in the 'rinth that won't deal with anyone because they only deal with clanned city elves, etc.

Some of these are absolutely trivial issues to play around, and staff time is probably [better] invested elsewhere, but I think they could use a bit of love in the long term.

[Harmless]

I must be wearing the wrong gear if you'regetting 80 extra stam lpoints and I'm only getting like,35, tops

you are. Simply put, go with the finest maker of desert wear, Kurac, and you will not be let down. Also, I was thinking more like 60 extra stamina. That is totally doable if you are thorough and cover everything with sandcloth. Really. Look:

Kuraci cloak: 10-15
Kuraci torso, leg, arm wear: (5-10)+(5-10)+(5-10) = 15-30
Appropriate headwear to shield the sun (surmac): 10
Additionals: gloves, ankle wraps, neck wrap to keep neck cool = 2+4+5 = 9
Sturdy boots: 10-15
Total boost: 50 moves if you get it all from NPCs, 75 if you pay for the best gear, which a PC merchant can help you with.

It isn't metagamey, it is IC. Kurac makes good desert wear... Common knowlege.

[Armaddict]

I'm okay with the original idea.  Kinda.

I'm more of the opposing side that I think is pretty unpopular, which is that desert travel itself is overdone.  Caravans with people on foot, with stops for rest?  More common plz.  Harder to get ride, and harder to get it to where entire companies aren't expected to do anything outside the city without their own mount?  MOAR.  LET'S SEE ACTUAL DESERT CARAVANS PEOPLE.

In essence...discussions I have about how the world feels small can be fixed just as easily by making riding less of a given.  City elves, likewise, should still gain the boon of elven stamina, without need of huge benefits to 'offset' the racial disdain for mounts.  I think city elves likely avoid the desert like the plague.  I think more people should think of the desert as a giant death trap.  And I think travel should be a bigger deal, rather than constantly trying to fix a problem that is propagated less by 'elves need more' and more by 'everyone else is just unrealistically savvy and well-equipped for a freakishly common occurrence of long distance travel'.

[Patuk]

I think 'nerf everyone else' is a much more unsympathetic, unpopular, difficult and perhaps dangerous position to take, but I'm not necessarily against it.

[HavokBlue]

I'm okay with the original idea.  Kinda.

I'm more of the opposing side that I think is pretty unpopular, which is that desert travel itself is overdone.  Caravans with people on foot, with stops for rest?  More common plz.  Harder to get ride, and harder to get it to where entire companies aren't expected to do anything outside the city without their own mount?  MOAR.  LET'S SEE ACTUAL DESERT CARAVANS PEOPLE.

In essence...discussions I have about how the world feels small can be fixed just as easily by making riding less of a given.  City elves, likewise, should still gain the boon of elven stamina, without need of huge benefits to 'offset' the racial disdain for mounts.  I think city elves likely avoid the desert like the plague.  I think more people should think of the desert as a giant death trap.  And I think travel should be a bigger deal, rather than constantly trying to fix a problem that is propagated less by 'elves need more' and more by 'everyone else is just unrealistically savvy and well-equipped for a freakishly common occurrence of long distance travel'.

City-elves need more because they have zero tribal clan options. They two non-tribal clan options, one of which they are utterly useless in and the other in which their usefulness is extremely limited. They need more because you can be the best elven roleplayer in the game, and you will still be met with consistent, ridiculous treatment by other PCs.

Giving city elves a way to run outside the city might make them viable in the two clans they can currently join, but it doesn't do a whole lot for the other issues facing the role.

[CodeMaster]

Relevant past thread circa 2008:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30442.0

[Dresan]

On the subject of clans, and more of a counter point to my own idea of elves needing total re-conning then anything else.

I will agree that c-elves need to be made slightly more viable to join clans like kurac and the byn. Perhaps not necessarily a 'running' ability, but walking ability without losing as much stamina would suffice for them to participate in the activities of those two clans. The idea being if they can run in cities without losing stamina, they should be able to at least walk semi-competently in the desert.


However in terms of work and clans. They probably can't be noble or Templar aides, but nether can dwarves or half-elves. Militia is out of the question too. Other than that, they have the same job opportunities my human character has for clans currently, as in convince one of the human PC run organizations that have popped up to hire them (kudos to the people who start these) . OR....start your own and round up the other few elves that are playing.

I really do like the fact that jobs, at least in the south outside PC started groups are no longer as plentiful, at least currently. Not sure if its intentional but kudos to staff none the less, hope it stays that way.

[Patuk]

Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place. He certainly has no business in Kurac, getting shipped off half the known away from his family to go work for Arm's drug cartel. An elf's place is with the people he trusts above all else and inside the place he calls home. Most everyone here appears to agree that celves need some buff at least, but as far as I can see it, there are two ways you can buff them - make them better runners overall and so boost their desert potential, or give them tribes and perks for them to be better inside cities.

I really would prefer seeing more of the second.

[HavokBlue]

joke's on you since kurac and the byn are the only clans they can join

[Armaddict]

I think 'nerf everyone else' is a much more unsympathetic, unpopular, difficult and perhaps dangerous position to take, but I'm not necessarily against it.

The basis of my thought process isn't that this is 'nerfing' anyone.  It's making things more in line with how things are actually represented.  Two mortal-enemy cities within 6 hours ride of each other doesn't result in both continuing to exist.  Travel...is a burden.  As things are, it's a burden to some, but has been made easy for most due to the argument of playability, even though playability has nothing to do with it unless you somehow incorporate that travel is supposed to be convenient.  My assertion is that it's not supposed to be, and shouldn't be, and once that is corrected, this particular issue becomes far less of an issue due to things being normalized.

City-elves need more because they have zero tribal clan options. They two non-tribal clan options, one of which they are utterly useless in and the other in which their usefulness is extremely limited. They need more because you can be the best elven roleplayer in the game, and you will still be met with consistent, ridiculous treatment by other PCs.

Giving city elves a way to run outside the city might make them viable in the two clans they can currently join, but it doesn't do a whole lot for the other issues facing the role.

Much like magickers, that -is- the role.  It doesn't need fixing, because that's what it is to be elf.  As far as the ridiculous treatment from other PC's, that is.  As stated in the very recent discussion of this, I'm not against the institution of city elf tribes, at all.  But I don't consider them -broken- by any means without it, either, which is the assertion that I literally hear over and over.  If the prospect of being a loner who trusts very few is not a comforting one, and if building relationships slowly over time sounds like a drag...I don't think the role is for you, and that doesn't change due to some people saying 'I'd play this role if the role changed.'

Overall, I think the constant hubbub over city elves is pretty entertaining.  City elves are weak in the desert.  City elves don't have a built in way to circumvent their social issues.  City elves have shitty stats.  And yet I enjoy them precisely because I try not to leave the city at all.  Because they're paranoid, but constantly engaging in unconscious testing to try and form connections.  Because their methodology is, generally, a more mental game than a chop up with swords right and left (even though some elves have done precisely that with incredible efficiency).

But, that's all talking about another issue.

As far as this particular idea, again, I'm not particularly against it, but I don't think it solves the actual issue.  I think it's just a place where the issue is glaringly obvious, and is being mistaken for a racial thing where it's actually a world thing.

Edited to add:  I blah blah blah.  I'm not actually expecting any influence or say so, I'm literally just meandering mentally in a post and invite people to follow along, because I'm about 99.9% certain that whatever is done, if anything is done, it won't come from here.

[Patuk]

No, absolutely not, Are you even serious? I genuinely can't tell.

Being a celf is nothing like being a magicker. More clans accept magickers than they do elves(!) Yes, both have low social standing. Big deal. What magickers lack in social clout and appreciation, they make up by sheer coded power and hilariously fun skillsets. Magickers are socially excluded in part because they have a really good offset in turn. Celves do not have such an offset. They have all the negatoves and none of the upsides.

(Yes, celves have two racial skills. Come back to me when you actually do something useful with them and then we'll talk.)

Celves are just a weak race to pick. Disliked by default, no clan options if you actually want to contribute, and after seeing what kind of a mana pool they get I'm not even sure if they get better wisdom than humans do. If I want to play a criminal type, the only coded boon a celf gets is a better agility stat. The human can not die when something looks at him wrong, actually lift up a keg of beer, inftrate in a prestigious organisation, and sit in a bar without being harassed all day.

And still I play them, and love it. But don't for a second imply that shit is working as intended, just fine the way it is, or that it makes sense for every single celf to be tribeless. You're just embarassing yourself.

[Armaddict]

Step out of the 'play to win' paradigm, and out of the 'win all fights' paradigm, and into a 'play the race' paradigm, and you sound more ludicrous than I do, I think.

[RogueGunslinger]

Uh. No. He doesn't. I'm honestly not even sure what you're trying to imply with that.